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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 2
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tbh I like both concepts but I voted for Stop the Secondary.
Here's why,
Entry Hazards, Trick, Leech Seed, Taunt, Twave, WoW, Poison maybe even subs can be annoying and the concept could give raise to an a team option that allows you do deal with or play around such moves.
Dont want to be jumping the gun here so skip if you dont want to read how I see this concept playing out
Something like a pkm:
ability: windstorm
when this pokemon enters the battlefield all entry harzards (and subs) are blown away.
I kinda picture it as a flying/ground pkm with u-turn.
*although giving it steel typing makes it immune to poison but trap-able (balancing out its ability and having a counter so it could not just come in and out all the time)
*if made not flying then it could take damage from entry hazards before blowing them away so its not totally broken or easy
*could be paired with salamence to clear sr but then you have two 4x ice weak pokes
wouldnt mind/matter if tricked/taunted/poisoned or wow'd. comes in to clear up the field.
immune to twave
I like that the concept could give us something that we could switch into status or non damaging effects and/or some way to deal with entry hazards (maybe a spinner that cant be blocked by ghosts or an ability like the above).
As some have already mentioned it could give rise to some pkm that arent currently played b/c of sr weakness.
There is even the possibility that given an ablility or two with some sort of typing we may end up with a pkm that is still very open with regards to its moves, stats and while still fulfilling what we want out of this concept.
Here's why,
Entry Hazards, Trick, Leech Seed, Taunt, Twave, WoW, Poison maybe even subs can be annoying and the concept could give raise to an a team option that allows you do deal with or play around such moves.
Dont want to be jumping the gun here so skip if you dont want to read how I see this concept playing out
Something like a pkm:
ability: windstorm
when this pokemon enters the battlefield all entry harzards (and subs) are blown away.
I kinda picture it as a flying/ground pkm with u-turn.
*although giving it steel typing makes it immune to poison but trap-able (balancing out its ability and having a counter so it could not just come in and out all the time)
*if made not flying then it could take damage from entry hazards before blowing them away so its not totally broken or easy
*could be paired with salamence to clear sr but then you have two 4x ice weak pokes
wouldnt mind/matter if tricked/taunted/poisoned or wow'd. comes in to clear up the field.
immune to twave
I like that the concept could give us something that we could switch into status or non damaging effects and/or some way to deal with entry hazards (maybe a spinner that cant be blocked by ghosts or an ability like the above).
As some have already mentioned it could give rise to some pkm that arent currently played b/c of sr weakness.
There is even the possibility that given an ablility or two with some sort of typing we may end up with a pkm that is still very open with regards to its moves, stats and while still fulfilling what we want out of this concept.
Skymin_Flower
It's Seed Flare time.
I don't love either of the concepts, but I vote for moi's Stop the Secondary.
I would have voted for Status Counter, but Stop the Secondary is similar anyway. I think it would be interesting to see it being played.
I don't understand how the two sided attack will work. There are pokemon that excel in two different areas (Lucario, Salamence, Infernape on the attacking spectrum, and Celebi, Suicune and others on the defensive) but these Pokemon all have a middle ground. I don't understand how a pokemon will suck if it tries to compromise.
I would have voted for Status Counter, but Stop the Secondary is similar anyway. I think it would be interesting to see it being played.
I don't understand how the two sided attack will work. There are pokemon that excel in two different areas (Lucario, Salamence, Infernape on the attacking spectrum, and Celebi, Suicune and others on the defensive) but these Pokemon all have a middle ground. I don't understand how a pokemon will suck if it tries to compromise.
Agreeing that both concept are perfectly valid. And just because there may be pokemon that already play a similar role is not a reason to discredit either of them.
There are arguable many pokemon that already fit both concepts, at least loosely, if not well.
As has been discuss already:
- Fidget, Cyclohm, Clefable, Spinners, Speedy Taunters, Clerics (hell even a few new Heal Bellers have come out thanks to HGSS) ect..
Could all fall under 'moi's Stop the Secondary'.
- Lucario, Cyclohm, Gliscor, Heatran, Dusknoir, Swampert, Celebi, Jirachi ect...
Could all fall under 'billymills Two Sided Attack'.
But the point of the CAP project is not always to "carve a new niche", but rather to expand on areas of the game that already exist. By pushing the boundies of that game even further is how we discover and learn things about it.
I'd also agree that alot of you are looking at either concept with a far to narrow a mind. The scope and possibile directions either concept can take is really rather vast. Some are simplifying what are more likely very difficult concepts to truly fulfill.
That all aside, ultimately I'm in favour of 'billymills Two Sided Attack'.
That's not to say I don't think 'moi's Stop the Secondary' isn't a good concept. On the contrary I think it is. And I even believe that, upon suggessful completion, it's likely to have a more emediate impact on the meta game than billymills' will. But I don't think the 'CAP Process' as well as the end result will be as interesting as 'Two Sided Attack'.
For starters it is a slighty cleaner slate on which the community to work on. The directions we can take it are a little more open. Where as 'Stop the Secondary' is a bit more linear. The end result is already a little too well defined (which a know is usually a good sign of a strong concept, but in this case I think it is to a fault. My opinion.) What 'Two Sided Attack' will ultimately be is still largely to be decided by the community
Further more for the concept of 'Two Sided Attack' to work we'll have to be rather meticulous in our execution. It have to be carfully considared all the way through and evaluated along the way. I think it'll be a greater (there for more fulfilling) chellenge.
'billymills Two Sided Attack' FTW.
There are arguable many pokemon that already fit both concepts, at least loosely, if not well.
As has been discuss already:
- Fidget, Cyclohm, Clefable, Spinners, Speedy Taunters, Clerics (hell even a few new Heal Bellers have come out thanks to HGSS) ect..
Could all fall under 'moi's Stop the Secondary'.
- Lucario, Cyclohm, Gliscor, Heatran, Dusknoir, Swampert, Celebi, Jirachi ect...
Could all fall under 'billymills Two Sided Attack'.
But the point of the CAP project is not always to "carve a new niche", but rather to expand on areas of the game that already exist. By pushing the boundies of that game even further is how we discover and learn things about it.
I'd also agree that alot of you are looking at either concept with a far to narrow a mind. The scope and possibile directions either concept can take is really rather vast. Some are simplifying what are more likely very difficult concepts to truly fulfill.
That all aside, ultimately I'm in favour of 'billymills Two Sided Attack'.
That's not to say I don't think 'moi's Stop the Secondary' isn't a good concept. On the contrary I think it is. And I even believe that, upon suggessful completion, it's likely to have a more emediate impact on the meta game than billymills' will. But I don't think the 'CAP Process' as well as the end result will be as interesting as 'Two Sided Attack'.
For starters it is a slighty cleaner slate on which the community to work on. The directions we can take it are a little more open. Where as 'Stop the Secondary' is a bit more linear. The end result is already a little too well defined (which a know is usually a good sign of a strong concept, but in this case I think it is to a fault. My opinion.) What 'Two Sided Attack' will ultimately be is still largely to be decided by the community
Further more for the concept of 'Two Sided Attack' to work we'll have to be rather meticulous in our execution. It have to be carfully considared all the way through and evaluated along the way. I think it'll be a greater (there for more fulfilling) chellenge.
'billymills Two Sided Attack' FTW.
I'm in favor of Two-Sided Attack personally.
Stop the Secondary seems to be something that we will not learn a lot about the Metagame from. It's not hard to figure out that without attacks like Stealth Rock, Roar, Taunt, ect, Stall will be useless. In addittion, if we go down the route of 'Stopping Secondary Effects', Cyclohm already does that, with Sheild Dust. However, that pokemon will also be dead weight against offensive teams, unless it is given a good movepool, and attacking stats, and the prevention of 'secondaries' falls to it's ability and/or type.
Two-Sided attack, however, we could learn a lot about the metagame from. How will it respond to a new, powerful, unpredictable threat? Salamance, the closest thing to what this sounds like, is number two in useage. Not only will the metagame changes be less predictable than, "Stall will be dead", but, it'll also be a good test of the CAP community, as something like this could easily wind up Uber if we overdo it.
Stop the Secondary seems to be something that we will not learn a lot about the Metagame from. It's not hard to figure out that without attacks like Stealth Rock, Roar, Taunt, ect, Stall will be useless. In addittion, if we go down the route of 'Stopping Secondary Effects', Cyclohm already does that, with Sheild Dust. However, that pokemon will also be dead weight against offensive teams, unless it is given a good movepool, and attacking stats, and the prevention of 'secondaries' falls to it's ability and/or type.
Two-Sided attack, however, we could learn a lot about the metagame from. How will it respond to a new, powerful, unpredictable threat? Salamance, the closest thing to what this sounds like, is number two in useage. Not only will the metagame changes be less predictable than, "Stall will be dead", but, it'll also be a good test of the CAP community, as something like this could easily wind up Uber if we overdo it.
lol, Sala doesn't fit that at all. Ever heard of MixMence? I suggest you re-read the concept.
Anyway, I ended up voting for Stop the Secondary again. If we do have a pokemon stopping secondary damage, it will certainly help with people who struggle against stall(why would dan vote for this?) Amyway, 2 sided attack sounds very much like Lucario and Jirachi.
I think we may learn more about the metagame with stop the secondary, and I believe, it could posssibly be almost like having a team with only 5 pokes on an offensive, or against offensive teams. Depends on movepool and such.
Anyway, I ended up voting for Stop the Secondary again. If we do have a pokemon stopping secondary damage, it will certainly help with people who struggle against stall(why would dan vote for this?) Amyway, 2 sided attack sounds very much like Lucario and Jirachi.
I think we may learn more about the metagame with stop the secondary, and I believe, it could posssibly be almost like having a team with only 5 pokes on an offensive, or against offensive teams. Depends on movepool and such.
I'll go for moi's Stop The Secondary
In the first poll, when I read it, it sounded like it would become an OU Clefable, and that put me off the idea, but when i've read through this thread, as long as we balance it to the point where it cant destroy "all non damaging moves" and make them worthless in CAP, it's an amazing idea, and we could learn a lot from it.
However, Shield Dust is already viable on Cyclohm, so another ability like that wouldn't be that useful, imo.
In the first poll, when I read it, it sounded like it would become an OU Clefable, and that put me off the idea, but when i've read through this thread, as long as we balance it to the point where it cant destroy "all non damaging moves" and make them worthless in CAP, it's an amazing idea, and we could learn a lot from it.
However, Shield Dust is already viable on Cyclohm, so another ability like that wouldn't be that useful, imo.
I'm going for Stop the Secondary based on three criteria:
1. Relevance. I've never played a single Shoddy Battle match without seeing Stealth Rock, Spikes, or Toxic Spikes go up. And I've been in VERY few where Trick, Taunt, or, to a lesser extent, Leech Seed, failed to pop up. A Pokemon capable of countering these threats will definitely leave an immediate and noticeable impact on the metagame.
2. The design process. I feel that Stop the Secondary provides a clearer set of guidelines for everyone to follow during the design process, while still providing ample room for interpretation. Stop the Secondary lays out the specific aims of the project (counter the commonly used non-damaging moves) to steer it in a general direction, but does not dictate the sort of Pokemon that should be created.
3. Lessons to be learned. As stated earlier, the entry hazards and other non-damaging moves are a real nuisance (or boon, depending on how you see it) in today's metagame. It'll be very interesting to see how teams realign their priorities without being able to rely on, say, 12.5% of instant switch-in damage.
1. Relevance. I've never played a single Shoddy Battle match without seeing Stealth Rock, Spikes, or Toxic Spikes go up. And I've been in VERY few where Trick, Taunt, or, to a lesser extent, Leech Seed, failed to pop up. A Pokemon capable of countering these threats will definitely leave an immediate and noticeable impact on the metagame.
2. The design process. I feel that Stop the Secondary provides a clearer set of guidelines for everyone to follow during the design process, while still providing ample room for interpretation. Stop the Secondary lays out the specific aims of the project (counter the commonly used non-damaging moves) to steer it in a general direction, but does not dictate the sort of Pokemon that should be created.
3. Lessons to be learned. As stated earlier, the entry hazards and other non-damaging moves are a real nuisance (or boon, depending on how you see it) in today's metagame. It'll be very interesting to see how teams realign their priorities without being able to rely on, say, 12.5% of instant switch-in damage.
im voting for Two sided attack again.
stop the secondary is a somewhat intresting concept acting as an 'OU clefable" however.they are many ways to stop it from ruining one chance to sweep(taunt users in pacticular).Two-sided attack can play through many differnt roles other than using non attacking moves,and is not as easy to stop.which i really like about that concept.
stop the secondary is a somewhat intresting concept acting as an 'OU clefable" however.they are many ways to stop it from ruining one chance to sweep(taunt users in pacticular).Two-sided attack can play through many differnt roles other than using non attacking moves,and is not as easy to stop.which i really like about that concept.
I'm sorry, but that is a horribly limited way to view the process already. What if we all said that "Oh, I can see it now. A better support version of Lucario: Two-Sided Attack."
There are multiple ways BOTH ideas can take shape. Keeping an open mind is what will allow us to view the metagame in a different light. If you already have what you want set in stone, that is fine. However, pointing out the worst possible outcome and then saying "It's going to happen" isn't doing much in the ways of moving things along smoothly.
I agree that people shouldn't view the concepts in the most negative way possible, but I'm seeing a lot of attacks on the opposing concept and not many defenses of the concept one supports. Sure, a fast sub clefable is probably the worst way to look at it and it shouldn't be considered the only option for STS, but what ways could STS manifest itself that would allow us to learn about the metagame and wouldn't overly centralize it? I haven't really seen any positive options for this. Two-sided attack has been attacked for having been seen before, but STS has also been seen before in certain forms. That's not really a viable reason for avoiding a concept. And of course, each can be implemented in ways that truly haven't been seen before. I'd also like to note that two-sided attack cannot have any middle ground, and because of this Lucario and most of the others mentioned aren't great examples.
Anyway, I voted for two-sided attack because I believe it's the least limiting concept and because I haven't seen any actual ways in which STS could work, simply reasons why TSA wouldn't (most of which aren't particularly valid).
Anyway, I voted for two-sided attack because I believe it's the least limiting concept and because I haven't seen any actual ways in which STS could work, simply reasons why TSA wouldn't (most of which aren't particularly valid).
I know my approach may look a bit pessimistic, and I'm sorry if I sounded like a jerk. But what I wanted to say all this along was simply: If moi's concept doesn't show me any possible way to produce something competitively interesting (at least, this is how I see it), while billymills actually does (despite having its flaws), I'll vote for the latter. Simple and clear. If you see that something interesting could come out from moi's concept, I'm fine with it.
I know you can't stop everything. What I believe is that, no matter how lenghty or narrow the secondary effects covered spectrum is, you will not discourage the use of these moves, and the effect on the metagame from this point of view will be negligible (IMO - seems I need to underline this point a bit more!)
Besides, I understand what is Plus and moi's stance to this concept, but look at some of the reasons people voted it:
They all think moi's concept will decrease the impact of entry hazards, Leech Seed, Trick or whichever kind of move/effect we try to fuck up. This is the point upon I think they won't be satisfied.
But since moi's concept is winning this anyway, I don't think this discussion has mcuh value...^^
While I appreciate the discussion and heated argument between both sides, I honestly feel that this discussion is getting out of hand. I'd like to remind both sides a couple of things.
- Know what a bash is, and know what isn't. Don't give me any passive aggressive bullshit either. You are allowed to voice your opinion on why you don't like said concept, but please try to analyze the concept carefully that you are voicing your opinion on, as well as making sure you aren't going so far as to insult the concept submitter or any of it's supporters.
- Be aware that there is another side of this argument. You aren't the only ones trying to back up their case. Give your opposition a little room here -- don't shoot them down because they don't like the concept you like. Chances are, they've already voted and it's too late to change their opinion. Pointing out flaws in arguments are fine; however, please try to relate to the other side before doing so.
- Cut the poll jumping. There is a difference to pointing out different possibilities in which this CAP could go -- offensively, defensively, etc. However, I'm really pissed at "fast Taunt pokemon??", "Magic Guard anyone??" and the likes. Things like this are semi-insults to the amount of thought both concept submitters have put into their concepts, and it is also against the rules and obnoxious. Avoid doing so.
The impression I get with Stop the Secondary is that, ideally, it will be a pokemon that, with each individual set, will be able to completely wall a certain group of non-damaging attacks (off the top of my head: Magic Guard Refresher/Psycho Shifter/Taunter for status, Leech Seed, etc. OR Scrappy Spinner for entry hazards OR Scarf Klutz for Trick, just as examples), not that it will be able to wall all non-damaging attacks at once. Two great abilities and 4 slot syndrome will determine which non-damaging attacks this pokemon can shut down and which ones it can't. The options are wide open. The main problem I have with it is that it is such a reactionary concept. It's trying to explore where the metagame could be, not where it could go, with the addition of this new pokemon. It's taking certain things away from the current metagame instead of propelling the current metagame forward. Anyway, that's how I see it. I understand that that's what a lot of people want to see with a CaP, which is their opinion and they should vote for this concept if they like that idea. I simply disagree.
The impression I get with Two-Sided attack is that, ideally, it will be a pokemon that can only viably play two disparate roles on a team (not just two sets), like physical attacker (Choice Band, stat-up sweeper, trapper, etc.) OR speedy support/annoyer/tank (Taunt, Screens, SubHeal, etc.) with no option for viably fulfilling other roles or both at the same time. This pokemon, as well, will rely on two amazing yet completely different abilities (read: Huge Power + Trace/Serene Grace, again, just as an example) and the stats to abuse both without being overpowered, of course, not to mention typing and everything else that could come together to balance it out. The idea that it has no true counters (but each role does) will change the team-building process of most battlers, as they must account for both versions of the pokemon when considering strategy. This concept, in my opinion, would be the more challenging of the two concepts to fully achieve, as we'd have to be very scrupulous as to not open the door for a middle-ground to slip in, which is why I think it will teach us more about the metagame during the building process, as well as in playtesting.
The impression I get with Two-Sided attack is that, ideally, it will be a pokemon that can only viably play two disparate roles on a team (not just two sets), like physical attacker (Choice Band, stat-up sweeper, trapper, etc.) OR speedy support/annoyer/tank (Taunt, Screens, SubHeal, etc.) with no option for viably fulfilling other roles or both at the same time. This pokemon, as well, will rely on two amazing yet completely different abilities (read: Huge Power + Trace/Serene Grace, again, just as an example) and the stats to abuse both without being overpowered, of course, not to mention typing and everything else that could come together to balance it out. The idea that it has no true counters (but each role does) will change the team-building process of most battlers, as they must account for both versions of the pokemon when considering strategy. This concept, in my opinion, would be the more challenging of the two concepts to fully achieve, as we'd have to be very scrupulous as to not open the door for a middle-ground to slip in, which is why I think it will teach us more about the metagame during the building process, as well as in playtesting.
Just wondering: was there ever a resolution to the "unethical manipulation of CaP polls" business? Like, will there be a vote-by-vote review after every poll or will it only take place during the art polls? I think this is something everyone, especially those who weren't around for that whole fiasco, should know is in effect (if it is).
Wait, what exactly happened with vote manipulation? Were people making alt accounts or something?
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