I'm looking for advice with tournys

[Z_A_K]

Hello, my name is Zack.

I've been scouring Smogon for quite some time, but I didn't give myself a lot of opportunities to intract on the forums. Now I feel like I have something to talk about so I hope you all give me a chance. And if this thread is in the wrong place please let me know!

A couple years ago a videogame tournament hit our small town for Smash Bros Melee., (which I won, cause this town sucks at videogames if it's name isn't call of duty) but it didn't stick around for long and soon everyone was hoping for more and more tournys. The guy who put it on came back one last time for Brawl, but it sucked. (items and bad stages, half the tourny was melee....) So my brother decided to start putting on his own brawl tournys for the town, which were in great success, but now he is leaving for college so there won't be anyone to do game tournys.

I know so far all this is about Smash Bros, but I just recently hosted my own Pokemon tourny at the local library which was more of a big friendlies-get-together, but hopefully I can make it bigger in the future. I wanted to test the interest in the town and I got about 20 people to show up which was pretty sweet and kinda unexpected.

Now I'm here to ask for some tourny running advice. I will describe how everything went and I'm really hoping for a quicker way to get things done. I felt like everything was kinda slow and boring. Don't get me wrong though, it was fun, but it was just taking too long to keep everyone busy at the same time.

My setup included; a wii with a copy of PBR to check for obvious hacks, my laptop equiped with Tournament Organizer, and several Nintendo Power for those who wanted something else to do.
There was also pop and pizza.

The Rules were as follows:

No Duplicate Pokemon
A trainer can not have any pokemon of the same species,
a different evolution does not fall under this.

Nick Names
Any pokemon which have an inapropriate name will be disqualified,
There will be no naming pokemon the same name as another,
No naming pokemon with names of other pokemon; EX. a Charizard named Squirtle
You will be given a chance to rename your pokemon if able.

Ubers
You will be limited to a total of 2 of these pokemon on your team:
Wobbuffet and Wynaut can not be one the same team.
Garchomp Kyogre Rayquaza Shaymin
Mewtwo Groudon Arceus Manaphy
Mew Latias Darkrai Giratina
Lugia Latios Palkia Deoxys - All forms
Ho-oh Wobbuffet Dialga Wynaut

No 1HKO moves
Banned Moves:
Fissure
Horn Drill
Sheer Cold
Guillotine

No Evasion Raising/Accuracy Lowering
Banned Moves:
Double Team
Sand Attack
Mud Slap
Flash
Mud Bomb
Muddy Water
Smoke Screen
Octozooka
Mirror Shot
Kinesis

Banned Items:
Lax Inscence
Bright Powder

No Soul Dew

Item Restriction (OFF)
You can have more then one of the same item attached to your pokemon team.

Sleep Clause
Only one pokemon on an opposing team can be put to sleep at a time,
selfinduced sleep, such as Rest does not fall under this.

Self Destruction Clause
If it comes down to 1 v 1 and a pokemon uses Explosion/Self Destruct and both pokemon are knocked out, the person who initiated the move is declared the loser. If 1 v 1 and both pokemon faint but the attacker was hit with recoil they still win.

The Style will be 6 v 6 with a minimum of 4 pokemon to participate.

Pokemon do not have to be level 100 to participate, WiFi battles can fix that.

This is a Ninendo DS counsel only tournament which will include the games; Pearl, Diamond, Platinum, Soul Silver, and Heart Gold

There will be a mandatory Hack check using Pokemon Battle Revolution.
HACKING WILL NOT BE TOLERATED AND CAN GET YOU BANNED
If you have reasoning that your opponent is hacking then please report it and an investigation will be taken place.

Failure to follow these rules can result in disqualification or even a ban from future tournaments

(I thought they were pretty solid anyways, but I will be removing Ubers from future tournys)


First off, I registered everyone who came in with their screen name and teams of 6.

2nd, I got everyone hooked up to the wireless via the library's internet, but I had to make sure everyone could connect to the internet and had the WEP key for the library.
(this is where most of the problems occurred)

Problem 1:
Most kids had never even used their wifi before and couldn't connect right away.
problem 2:
Several had no idea how to input the WEP key
Problem 3:
There was a dropped game. Their fight was restarted, but dropped a second time.
Problem 4:
Kids came in with crazy amounts of legendaries that they probably shouldn't even have.
(Ex. One kid came in expecting to play with 3 Arceus and a Darkrai)
(I can't think of anymore at the moment :P)



So I come to you all to ask for help in organizing my next tournaments and those to come, so long as they continue. I am open to all suggestions and critisizms. Any experience or advice is greatly appreciated.

I have already decided that I'm going to change some of the rules and add another that includes any vulgar language on ball capsules. (I want to have air tight rules, because this is, for all purposes, a kids game so there obviously shouldn't be anything of the like. Plus I don't want these tournys to not have popularity among the kid's parents.) :P

Thanks for everyone's help!

 

[Zacchaeus]

I'm not sure where this should go, but I have a feeling the mods might not like it.

But that evasion/accuracy clause is retarded. Who bans Muddy Water but leaves Acupressure unbanned?

 

[Z_A_K]

I'm not sure where else to go with this either.... Sorry if it seems awkward.

I did actually have acupressure banned, I just forgot to include it :P

 

[mingot]

This thread is fine here.

 

[Sprocket]

My question is, did you have somewhere that potential competitors could read up on your rules ahead of time? IE: Something like a website, or maybe a posting in your library.

Problem 1:
Most kids had never even used their wifi before and couldn't connect right away.

When dealing with kids, you're probably going to get this a lot.

problem 2:
Several had no idea how to input the WEP key

See above. Lots of adults are pretty ignorant about setting up wi-fi as well.

I'm guessing you could probably alleviate the above problems if you include written step-by-step instructions for people to follow when they arrive. Not everyone will follow them, of course, but if most people do, at least your work is reduced.

Problem 3:
There was a dropped game. Their fight was restarted, but dropped a second time.

In this case, have a backup plan ready. Worst case scenario you resort to old fashioned battles without PBR, or have spare DSs handy in case someone's battery dies.

Problem 4:
Kids came in with crazy amounts of legendaries that they probably shouldn't even have.
(Ex. One kid came in expecting to play with 3 Arceus and a Darkrai)

Well, you can tell who read the rules and who didn't, eh? Again, dealing with kids here.

Things will probably go more smoothly with your next tournament, as long as the size doesn't balloon out of control; as they say, practice makes perfect.

Have you considered prizes?

Speaking from a legal perspective, you should probably require anyone under 13 to bring signed permission slips from their parents, and/or require their parents to be present.

 

[GREEN00]

Some suggestions on rule changes,

-Allow legal hacks. You are phasing out possible participants otherwise. Certainly, ensure they are legal. No max EVs, impossible egg move combinations, etc. If people choose not to hack it is their choice, but so long as the hacks are possible without an external device the only difference is time invested.

-Ban Quick Claw.

-Accuracy lowering moves are fine, just not evasion boosting moves.

 

[Itchni]

you should just ban all UBERS, honestly if you are going to enforce clauses then might as well use the tiering.

 

[Sprocket]

It looks to me like he wanted to meld the GS Cup rules with Smogon rules, which is where the "Only 2 Ubers" comes from.

 

[bearsfan092]

you should just ban all UBERS, honestly if you are going to enforce clauses then might as well use the tiering.

I would agree with this idea, but considering that he described it as a bunch of "friendlies", I'd assume the level of general competitiveness is a little low, and most ingame teams have an Uber or two. By getting rid of all Ubers, I think he would have killed a ton of participation, making his tourney an utter failure.

 

[Z_A_K]

My question is, did you have somewhere that potential competitors could read up on your rules ahead of time? IE: Something like a website, or maybe a posting in your library.

I did not have anything that stated the rules up front, but I did go over them when a lot of people had shown up and to those who showed up late. This is an amazing idea, I just need to work this out on where to post the rules. As for websites I'm currently working on a facebook page for the tournys.

Any suggestions for free site hosting?

I'm guessing you could probably alleviate the above problems if you include written step-by-step instructions for people to follow when they arrive. Not everyone will follow them, of course, but if most people do, at least your work is reduced.

Amazing I wish I thought of that sooner!

In this case, have a backup plan ready. Worst case scenario you resort to old fashioned battles without PBR, or have spare DSs handy in case someone's battery dies.

I actually had everyone just using their DSs, but I can loan out my own for backup or whoever else feels generous. :)
Was kinda curious about trying to add my own wifi network that doesn't require a WEP key to get on too. Just not sure if the library will allow that lol.

Things will probably go more smoothly with your next tournament, as long as the size doesn't balloon out of control; as they say, practice makes perfect.

Thanks for the encouragement!

Have you considered prizes?

Yes, I was thinking of distributing good IV pokes or items and some people have offered to donate things too! Such as cash.

Speaking from a legal perspective, you should probably require anyone under 13 to bring signed permission slips from their parents, and/or require their parents to be present.

I wasn't sure if I should keep having the younger kids come in, because some of them were just way too young so I might just drop the idea of kids and stick to teens.

Thanks for all the helpful info!

 

[Z_A_K]

Some suggestions on rule changes,

-Allow legal hacks. You are phasing out possible participants otherwise. Certainly, ensure they are legal. No max EVs, impossible egg move combinations, etc. If people choose not to hack it is their choice, but so long as the hacks are possible without an external device the only difference is time invested.

-Ban Quick Claw.

-Accuracy lowering moves are fine, just not evasion boosting moves.

Great suggestions!

Quick Claw sounds like a good ban to me, as for accuracy lowering I can defiantly give that a shot and see how the matches go. Seeing as I'm still getting used to tournys.

But, umm, what kind of hacks are legal?
Like Tweaking?

And I was curious if I could get an example of some hacked pokes?

It looks to me like he wanted to meld the GS Cup rules with Smogon rules, which is where the "Only 2 Ubers" comes from.

The 2 ubers thing won't stay it was just the friendlies. I wanted to see what kind of pokemon the town used. If it was a lot of ubers then i wasn't sure if i would have crippled the competition, but I did attempt to educate a group after the tourny on EVs just to have a better turnout next time!

 

[Sprocket]

I did not have anything that stated the rules up front, but I did go over them when a lot of people had shown up and to those who showed up late. This is an amazing idea, I just need to work this out on where to post the rules. As for websites I'm currently working on a facebook page for the tournys.

In general, it's always a good idea to have rules written out so that there is absolutely no question. And remember the ultimate rule (as long as you aren't competing yourself):

* Your tournament, so your decisions are final.

 

[General_Norris]

First of all. Print two rulestes. One for you to keep, one for everyone to consult and read if they want to. Tie it so that it doesn't get lost.

Try to prevent any explanations by writing signs with the steps necesary to play. For example, next to the table where you register the teams bring sign that reads "Follow this steps: 1) Get your team ready for check-in 2) No two of the same pokémon etc"

If you need to hand out codes use a sign. Try to look as profesional as possible. Making judges wear certain clothing/identification so players can ask is a good idea too.

Picture yourself. If you were entering your tournement, could you register yourself in it without asking someone where to go? Could you get a team to play in the tournament because you knew what the rules were?


Try to plan for everything and include that in your rules. Just from the top of my head you should think about these things:

1) Include a rule about good sportmanship. No trash-talking. Having idiots running around saying homophobe comments and being assholes will ruin the experience for everyone. Suggest the players to shake their hands before playing when the tournament starts.

2) If someone breaks a rule, cheats or a disconnection happens remember that a ruling is useless if you don't enforce it. Stand there so they feel pressured.

3) Bring a couple of AC adapters. If you bring any kind of equipment it is worth it to make it sure it cannot be stolen. (For example, my organiztion uses home-made boxes so you can't take the controllers away). I have seen lots of Wiimotes and Wii stolen, be careful.

Yes, I was thinking of distributing good IV pokes or items and some people have offered to donate things too! Such as cash.

Don't give money as a prize.

First of all it can be considered gambling and brings problems. Yeah, it isn't but public places don't like it. Magic: The Gathering used to be played with Ante but it was removed for that reason.

Second of all it is not a cool prize. Give plushes instead. You can get them for very little money and will make players happier than what they could win. It just doesn't make the same impact as something tangible.

Money is also common and boring. If your friends ask you what you won and you answer money it is a boring topic. If you say you won a plush and you can show them you will cause a better impresion.

Also a plush or game will remind the player forever that they had fun at the tournament. Money will be spent and quickly forgotten.

In third place, kids have no use for your little money. They will like to fight for a plush better than for a piece of paper.

You can also get some small figurines and given them at random. It will make the experience more fun for everyone at a very little cost.

But, umm, what kind of hacks are legal?

Anything that can be achieved in-game given enough time.

For example. A Vaporeon with 31 Ivs in each stat, 252 Hp EVs, 252 SpA EVs and Spe EVs.

In the end a legal hack and a normal pokemon are exactly the same so its not like you can enforce a "no legal hacks" rule.


Also, if you can try to have a time limit for battles. You don't want to have your tournament fragged into mud because someone has been playing for an hour.

And try to play Swiss. It is more fun and requiers little on your part.

 

[Westham]

Seconding the idea that you shouldn't give money as a prize. As well as the reasons stated above, it will make the whole tournament more competitive, and not in a good way. Older people who feel like they have more to lose might be rude or try to cheat little kids who don't know better. There is also a higher chance that one person will steamroll the entire tournament; not fun. The plushy idea is great, and I highly recommend it.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

If time is a concern, you can try limiting teams to 3 or 4 Pokemon instead of 6. Or you could play doubles since it's a faster paced game, but I dunno if I'd do that unless you think most participants would be open to the idea.

HeartGold and SoulSilver have a "Flat Battle" feature that uses Battle Frontier leveling rules: all Pokemon over level 50 are reduced to level 50. This can be used instead of wi-fi battles to keep everyone at the same level, but it unfortunately can't be used on DPPt.

-Allow legal hacks. You are phasing out possible participants otherwise. Certainly, ensure they are legal. No max EVs, impossible egg move combinations, etc. If people choose not to hack it is their choice, but so long as the hacks are possible without an external device the only difference is time invested.

It is a bad idea to explicitly encourage hacking, especially in a more casual environment. Sometimes people who make "legal hacks" are actually not knowledgeable enough about the game to ensure that their hacks are legal (illegal move combinations, illegal Pokeball type, careless EV distribution, etc), and it would take way too long to thoroughly check everyone for hacks anyway. PBR probably isn't good enough unless you go to the trouble of trying to connect to an online match with the suspect team, as I'm almost positive that just copying a team to the game itself won't flag illegal moves.

Besides, since there is absolutely no difference data-wise between a legit Pokemon and a 100% legal hack, those who are capable of creating strictly legal hacks can do so with impunity already. There is no need to make a rule for it.

Money is also common and boring. If your friends ask you what you won and you answer money it is a boring topic. If you say you won a plush and you can show them you will cause a better impresion.

I disagree rather strongly, but I also think money is a poor choice as a prize when lots of kids are present.

 

[Z_A_K]

First of all. Print two rulestes. One for you to keep, one for everyone to consult and read if they want to. Tie it so that it doesn't get lost.

Try to prevent any explanations by writing signs with the steps necesary to play. For example, next to the table where you register the teams bring sign that reads "Follow this steps: 1) Get your team ready for check-in 2) No two of the same pokémon etc"

If you need to hand out codes use a sign. Try to look as profesional as possible. Making judges wear certain clothing/identification so players can ask is a good idea too.

Professionalism is my goal, this is all just what I need to keep things moving quickly.

Picture yourself. If you were entering your tournement, could you register yourself in it without asking someone where to go? Could you get a team to play in the tournament because you knew what the rules were?

This is gonna make planning this even easier.

Try to plan for everything and include that in your rules. Just from the top of my head you should think about these things:

1) Include a rule about good sportmanship. No trash-talking. Having idiots running around saying homophobe comments and being assholes will ruin the experience for everyone. Suggest the players to shake their hands before playing when the tournament starts.

2) If someone breaks a rule, cheats or a disconnection happens remember that a ruling is useless if you don't enforce it. Stand there so they feel pressured.

3) Bring a couple of AC adapters. If you bring any kind of equipment it is worth it to make it sure it cannot be stolen. (For example, my organiztion uses home-made boxes so you can't take the controllers away). I have seen lots of Wiimotes and Wii stolen, be careful.[/QUOUTE]

I will probably include these or similar with the regular rule set like on the bottom of the page, but putting sportsmanship in it's own rules would probably make it look more important.

Don't give money as a prize.

First of all it can be considered gambling and brings problems. Yeah, it isn't but public places don't like it. Magic: The Gathering used to be played with Ante but it was removed for that reason.

Second of all it is not a cool prize. Give plushes instead. You can get them for very little money and will make players happier than what they could win. It just doesn't make the same impact as something tangible.

Money is also common and boring. If your friends ask you what you won and you answer money it is a boring topic. If you say you won a plush and you can show them you will cause a better impresion.

Also a plush or game will remind the player forever that they had fun at the tournament. Money will be spent and quickly forgotten.

In third place, kids have no use for your little money. They will like to fight for a plush better than for a piece of paper.

You can also get some small figurines and given them at random. It will make the experience more fun for everyone at a very little cost.

This is a great idea! I have a sponsor that wants to donate gift certificates to his game shop and some posters which is awesome! So money wouldn't be the only thing being distributed. What else is sweet is that the library actually sets up door prizes sometimes which I thought was pretty cool.
In the friendlies I actually gave out 2-liters as prizes.

Anything that can be achieved in-game given enough time.

For example. A Vaporeon with 31 Ivs in each stat, 252 Hp EVs, 252 SpA EVs and Spe EVs.

In the end a legal hack and a normal pokemon are exactly the same so its not like you can enforce a "no legal hacks" rule.

As for this I may have to just hope that everyone stays honest, and let others decide if their opponent is cheating. When i register teams i good do a quick overview of their team, or I could get a couple refs to assist me in hack checking. For the most part those kids had no idea how to hack so hopefully it won't come down to that.
I guess I can do it if there actually is a problem arising.

Also, if you can try to have a time limit for battles. You don't want to have your tournament fragged into mud because someone has been playing for an hour.

This has crossed my mind, but what is a proper amount of time for a battle?

And try to play Swiss. It is more fun and requiers little on your part.

I have no idea what Swiss is. Fill in?

 

[Z_A_K]

It is a bad idea to explicitly encourage hacking, especially in a more casual environment. Sometimes people who make "legal hacks" are actually not knowledgeable enough about the game to ensure that their hacks are legal (illegal move combinations, illegal Pokeball type, careless EV distribution, etc), and it would take way too long to thoroughly check everyone for hacks anyway. PBR probably isn't good enough unless you go to the trouble of trying to connect to an online match with the suspect team, as I'm almost positive that just copying a team to the game itself won't flag illegal moves.

Besides, since there is absolutely no difference data-wise between a legit Pokemon and a 100% legal hack, those who are capable of creating strictly legal hacks can do so with impunity already. There is no need to make a rule for it.

Is there a method or website that can help in hack checking? I know I can look at the moveset or Maxed out stats and the pokeball, but is there anything that may be a solid acceptable way of checking?

Curious, do the international pokemon tournaments have hack checking?

I disagree rather strongly, but I also think money is a poor choice as a prize when lots of kids are present.

This is excellent advice, there are certainly a lot more kids then adults here lol.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Swiss style is a variant of round robin play, in which competitors play against multiple opponents and those with the best records advance to a finalist bracket. This ensures that everyone gets to play several games instead of being eliminated immediately, but it's only advisable if you have enough time for it. You can probably find more details for different tournament styles on Wikipedia.

Probably the fastest way to hack check on the fly is to have the loser of each match save a video on the Battle Recorder and attempt to upload it via the GTS. If there is an error message and the GTS refuses to accept the video, then at least one Pokemon in the video was hacked (though I'm not sure if it specifies which team had the hack). I don't know what can slip by the GTS, but I do know that it catches illegal EV spreads and probably illegal catch locations as well, so that weeds out some of the major offenders with minimal effort. But again, this only works for Platinum, HeartGold, and SoulSilver, as DP has no Battle Recorder.

 

[Z_A_K]

This is still awesome information! I have a friend with an AR so I will definitely give it a try with him. PBR has been able to see illegal move-sets, but I think that was it's extent.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Well I know that just copying a team or save file over to PBR won't flag illegal moves. Otherwise, nothing with Plat/HGSS tutor moves would fly because PBR predates all of those games. If there is a move check, it would only be done when you attempt to sign onto WFC.

I know that PBR does catch illegal EV spreads as well though.

 

[Z_A_K]

Thank you all who have helped me out thus far.

I am still interested in other ban-ables/allow-ables
and interesting activities for those who are not participating/waiting.

I already thought of bringing in Smash Bros. lol

If there would be a good way to teach these kids about competitive pokemon, what would you include to teach them how to get better?

 

[Maxillion]

Well, depending on how many people show up, and how much time you have, I would separate the tournaments into different groups.

You know as well as anyone here, there will be people who bring teams they used ingame, that are poorly made, and you will have those people who actually know what they are doing, and have constructed properly EV'd teams, and they will just run right through whoever they are facing.

On the issue of time, if you are short on it, I wouldn't suggest doing a round robin, as it may take too long, instead do single/double elimination.

For the time length of battles, since you will be playing on DSs, I've had battles go on for hours, granted they were stalls, but usually most battles last 20-35ish minutes, or less. I wouldn't let any battle go over an hour if you are pressed for time.

Since you are playing on wifi, I would do single level 100, so you can view the final stats of all pokemon, even if you don't use a checker, you can at least make sure each stat is within the confines of what it would typically be, and I'm sure you won't have to worry about most kids who come, because very few are smart enough to use pokesav, and just grab codes off the internet which can be spotted very easily.

 

[Rayne Sylvan]

I agree that swiss is an excellent compromise between round-robin and single or double elimination brackets. The game shop here that runs local MTG tournaments usually does three randomly paired rounds (so everybody gets to play three matches regardless of record), and then the four or eight people (depending on how many people participated) with the best records do a single elimination bracket to determine the winner. It works great, and runs fast with 40 or 60 minute rounds.

 

[Discharge]

You have nearly 20 people showing up to you first tournament! I've held about 8 here in central Minnesota and the largest turnout I've ever gotten is about 12. Whatever your doing, keep doing it because it is working wonders!

 

[General_Norris]

This has crossed my mind, but what is a proper amount of time for a battle?

I don't know, you will need to test it. I think that 40 minutes would be enough. After that you can give them X turns/minutes to finish before declaring a winner based on number of Pokémon or HP. It is not the fairest thing but it is the only objective one.



Remember that Swiss takes the same time as single elimination as the number of rounds is the same, there's just more people playing per round. I have not found an easy to use Swiss organizer but there's probably one you can use or just do it manually (Write down every name and score and just pair them. Note who played who so they don't battle each other again in third round).



About something while they wait just try some easy to play games like Pong or Joust. That will keep people entertained.

You can also run more tournaments but do not overextend.


It would also be a good idea to register a legal organization if you are going to hold more tournaments in the future. You can get some subsidies that way and getting permits will be easier. But don't bite more than you can eat! First try to run a couple ghetto style and learn from the experience.