I'll admit Xerneas' place in the metagame is controversial to say the least, but I believe hands down that it doesn't reach in any form the brokenness/uncompetitiveness of the previous bans, namely in Calyrex-S, Mega Rayquaza, Miraidon or even Koraidon. The first three are self-explanatory, the latter one required at least two tera Fairy/Water on Pokemon that on paper should have a great matchup against it such as Ho-Oh/Arceus-Fairy, and even then it could sweep a whole team just with the slighest amount of chip. Koraidon also had 135 base speed, meaning that no matter what you had to take a heavy hit before KOing it, and it also had the defensive utility of revenge killing things.
are well above the threshold for what constitutes a banworthy mon and I think we would probably both agree. I did see some players call for a
ban pre scale shot but that was not something I agreed with. Even if we were to complex ban
from teraing I still would not want it back in the tier. Though not close to as broken as
scale shot
is still well above what I'd consider an acceptable presence in the tier. That is to say a mon doesn't have to
levels of broken for it to be banworthy in my eyes.
Xerneas, on the other hand, does not enjoy the same broken qualities as the aforementioned four Pokemon. In fact, I don't necessarily think that it is even harder to check than back in the ORAS day where the best Steel type was Klefki.
In the SV Ubers thread (post #63) Aberforth wrote " But Ubers has itself changed since a lot of the times you mentioned. If XY came out tomorrow for the first time, there's no chance that Xerneas would stay in the tier, for example. The culture and environment is simply very different nowadays and thats not a problem. Cultures and tiers change over time, and especially with AG existing, what was once the primary mentality of an Ubers player is now the mentality of people who do not play the tier. And, ultimately, any tiering purpose we have here is to serve the wishes and desires of our community. If Koraidon gets suspected and gets banned, it is because an overwhelming majority of players want to see Koraidon gone, and there is no point in ignoring the opinions of the vast majority of the players to keep true to the spirit of a previous version of Ubers. Its why, despite being adamant that Calyrex-S was a good thing for the meta, I voted to have a suspect on it in SS. We are here to listen to the community and try to act if necessary. "
I remember wanting it banned during that time and Aberforth is on the money when he touched on the shifting identity of ubers from purely a banlist to a tier that concerns itself with competitive balance.
The tier is filled with decent counterplay in the best Pokemon in the tier Primal Groudon, one of the most splashable Defogger in Ho-Oh, Zacian-C, the underrated Necrozma-DM, and priority users such as Arceus, Marshadow that can do well over 35%, even more with Tera. In other words, in order for Xerneas to be truly threatening, it must be in pristine condition, and it must burn Tera in order to get past its usual answers. But you can have your own Tera, for example Tera Fire on Ho-Oh lets it beat Xerneas 100% of the time (unless Ingrain Z-Geomancy), Tera Poison Giratina-O flips the matchup.
Counterplay to
within the tier does exist. I agree with you there, if it didn't
would have been long banned. Where we disagree is that
has to be in pristine condition to its job.
is rarely going to get a 'free' opportunity to boost but its bulk and typing allow it to take a hit from a lot of mons anyways, sometimes two. This also presumes that its checks are going to be in pristine condition as well. Outside of
this doesn't really happen.
is really about the only mon that is comfortable switching into
as everything else isn't particularly keen on switching into a moonblast. Really the only other thing that comes to mind are DD variants of
. Defensive
is a
check that doesn't check
due to rarely being able to fit earthquake so it looses to sub or
/
/
. It is however the best check to
. The priority users do revenge it, but that also means that you've already lost at least one mon and must have chipped it fairly heavily to allow them to successfully revenge it.
can somewhat deal with it from full but this means that it is a defogger that can't defog against
teams as it is going to take enough chip doing so to put it dangerously close to being KO'd by +2 moonblast even with
. Even then you've sacced a mon and tera to paralyze
to let something else ko it.
I don't really think it has to burn tera to get past its answers unless you're deadset on using
as a sweeper rather than a breaker who can easily sweep under the right conditions. As I said in my earlier post, I HP Rock Focus Blast is the best at the moment and it doesn't need to tera unless facing stall. Additionally, forcing a tera in this manner is something which is easily taken advantage of by its teammates. One of the primary reasons I think one of
or
has to go is that teraing to deal with
leaves most of its counterplay very vulnerable to
/
with
being a great example.
The best way to manage Xerneas is not letting it set up. Fortunately because of Zygarde, Taunt Arceus is everywhere, as is Taunt Yveltal. However, even when set-up, priority users are very viable in the metagame, as you also need priority to help against the likes of Eternatus, Ultra Necrozma, DD Arceus.
This is a lot easier said than done. Often it is delaying
rather than stopping it.
is really the only
that runs taunt without a drawback.
generally does but that is rarely seen outside of HO and is using it for an offensive purpose rather than a defensive one. Running taunt is an opportunity cost which means
comes at the cost of refresh to ward off status, recover, or valuable coverage.
should be knocking which not all run since both run the risk of getting moonblasted and OHKO'd anyways unless it is
which is uncommon and still uses your tera. Priority users are valuable, but are also highly punishable.
locking into shadow sneak gives a free turn afterwards which can be taken advantage of whilst one round of
chip means it is KO'd by moves which it could otherwise live from full such as dynamax cannon from offensive
.
Going to just go through the list of mons you've provided rather than quoting each individual one
- It really depends on the team and gamestate. Vs HO it is definitely doable depending on the team as even 252+ blades maxes out at 66% and getting a geomancy against HO can end the game on the spot. It isn't setting up on defensive sets found on balance teams but surprisingly it is favoured to live blades into
sneak. It is a moot point since most likely a
will be on the team anyways. Against BO it is definitely feasible as you mentioned in your post
teams tend to struggle a lot v
so similar to the HO matchup getting a geomancy off can be the end of the game.
- This is going to depend on whether the
is
or sub. If it is
is free setup and regardless +2 moonblast is an OHKO if it has not transformed. If the
isn't
/sub it isn't worth taking a glare.
- This really depends on the
team. V defensive sets found on bulkier teams it isn't really worth teraing. However, offensive
is often not coming out before the mid game at the earliest so things are pretty likely to have enough chip or be dead to where it can be worth burning tera to set up.
- No comment
- Yeah it shouldn't ever really be setting up v it but it doesn't need to end with a positive interaction. Most likely you're forcing a tera from
at the cost of being toxic'd or phased. I would rarely ever set up v it but taking a toxic is well worth forcing the tera on
which makes it very susceptible to something else on the team while keeping the power herb intact.
- Obviously it isn't going to set up on it. Sure on paper you can use your tera to do so but in practise it will rarely work out well for the
user.
- Depends on whether the team values the trade since it will be picked off after. Getting rid of it for something like offensive
is likely worth it. Not going to say it always is though. It is very team dependent.
- This really depends on both the
and the
. Offensive
kinda thuds into HO, trading at best and +2 moonblast OHKO's if rocks are up so thunder doesn't matter.
balance may see it as worthwhile due to defensive
being a real headache but it is going to be left at 35%ish in a best case scenario so it will be revenged afterwards. Whether it is considered a worthwhile trade is team dependent.
- Agreed. Especially if paired with
.
Agree with the knock though
HO doesn't have issues with
to begin with. On balance it should just moonblast anyways since most of the rest of the team is going to have pretty significant issues dealing w/
.
- On paper sure it can. In practise it isn't going to happen.
has to be admant and
has to
or it is getting blown up. It is never going to be worth that level of risk.
- Agreed. It is worth trading on some balances but that is just hitting it with moonblast not boosting up.
- Agreed.
Defensive
is setup fodder for every
set.
/
resist sunstrike with the latter having a toxic immunity and it gets even worse if
has sub. The
likely partnering with
can at least do its job for it.
/
can setup on offensive DD sets since these tend to not be on the bulkiest of teams. Defensive DD
wins though. Wish more people would use that set.
- Yeah it isn't happening between taunt, toxic, and the
that most likely accompanies it.
- It can find the turns to do, particularly
locked into sneak.
is no.
Find it is a coinflip.
isn't switching in and
will be at +2 often enough to mean
won't be setting up. If it doesn't have a plot then sure.
- Agreed.
+
teams are rarer than me making a short post.
- Agreed.
- Don't really see how this finds the room for taunt in its moveset. If it isn't running CM it is very hard to justify over a different
form.
- Agreed.
- Agreed for
HO but HO gets wrecked by
in general anyways.
balance can abuse a
but yeah setting up is still risky though you can double on the forced switch.
These are the most common interactions between Xerneas and the rest of the metagame. You'll see that Xerneas must be very healthy in order to sweep and thus I heavily disagree with the idea that Xerneas has good defensive utility. I understand that these are the most favorable situations for the player facing Xerneas, and that the Xerneas' player can also throw a Moonblast every time before switching out every time when facing Taunt users in a perfect case scenario. I don't want to undermine what Xerneas can do, it is a big threat in the metagame and requires good teambuilding, good play to mitigate what it can do. Sometimes the right Tera, specifically Fighting or Electric, can feel a little bullshit as well. However, it needs support as a team, whether through Screens or through a strong defensive backbone, in order to function optimally.
Not really sure who is saying that
has good defensive utility. Well the
/
/
sets do but we arn't discussing those. It just has enough defensive qualities to let it find a lot of opportunities to setup. I do wish more players would just throw out moonblasts rather than just attempt to boost up then lose their
to the counterplay every team is mandated to have.
definitely requires support and isn't going to sweep right off the bat. The issues that myself and a lot of others have is that achieving the conditions for
to sweep is too easy or that
can simply punch enough holes that another mon can easily clean up the wreckage. Yeah
does stupid things and there is almost always going to some bullshit set that sweeps you. Additionally
isn't a mon that really requires much in terms of support. The mons you use to support it are all great mons which will find their way onto your teams anyways.
I tried teams with Zacian + Xerneas, the main problem is that PDon + Ho-Oh are resilient enough to fend off those threats, unless you want to sacrifice your Zacian to open a Xerneas sweep, but even then opposing Ho-Oh can be a pain if you don't do it fast enough.
This is the wrong way around. You're sacrificing your
to facilitate a
sweep.
is going to be too weak to deal with
after
and
gets blown up by tera blast ground. It is just HO overwhelming shared checks.
Primal Kyogre + Xerneas is the most threatening in my opinion as it eats Xerneas' checks alive, and moreso than Zacian, it can come in several times during a game to dish out damage that will stick, greatly facilitating Xerneas' sweep, especially in the Primal Groudon matchup.
Yeah this is great. Rarely use
myself since I find it quite boring but I would like to build a
+1 at some point.
Lastly, Gothitelle + Xerneas is outright evil in the right matchup (e.g. versus stall/defensive/balanced teams), but can fall flat against more offensive teams as both Pokemon's lack of defensive utility is quite problematic.
Yeah this more of a
team issue. It is either god tier or you're playing 5 v 6. It works best when the rest of the team is built to deal with HO in my experience. Love
but rarely use it because it is not fun to ladder with.
Will the metagame get more diverse with a Xerneas ban? Maybe. Is Xerneas broken? No, at least not for Ubers standards. Is Xerneas overcentralizing? No, as things that check it are already very splashable in the metagame, and you don't need to use bad Pokemon/movesets/items to check it.
Fair enough. The issue in my eyes isn't necissarily handling
itself but
+ friends.
I'm also interested in how you deal with Tera Dark LO Yveltal, especially with the flinch chance taken into account, or the threat of Sucker Punch, as none of the defensive backbones can handle it properly, and I believe it exacerbates the Tera issues.
It depends what style of team you're using. HO generally doesn't have a ton of issues with it since it can maybe sucker a couple of mons but is going to be outsped and blasted by the rest. The good thing is that it doesn't run sucker and knock. It is however yeah, a demon to most things slower than it. On paper
handles it but still gets 3hko'd by wing so it gets forced into recover loops which are exploitable. Oddly, it is about the only mon in the tier
actually wants to switch in on since heat wave is uncommon these days. Defensive
also trades with it fairly well. Oddly enough the best switchin I've ever found is CM
. Even bulkless it isn't 2hko'd any move and can usually recover / cm at least once in the worst case scenario. Usually it gets a CM which either scares it out or forces a taunt which then the
can either switch out or scarifice itself to leave
at enough health that it still poses a threat and is going to chunk most things that it outspeeds.
is another option. Statusing it on a predicted switch more or less kills it as well whether it is the para speed drop or toxic +
chip killing any longevity it has.
is really not a mon that comes to mind when thinking about tera issues. When I use it most of the time if it teras it is to remove the rocks weakness rather than for the extra damage. Agreed though that a tera retest would be the top priority, just not sure if it is an option unfortunately.
is pointless as it intends to sweep, not slowly break a team down like 
(aka Dual Screens) to setup and sweep easier. Lastly, 
fails to do, with it's lack of resists and major weaknesses to Dark and Ghost. And I wouldn't run Protect either, as you'd want Power Gem to nuke 
better.
is not viable in NDUbers. It's main purpose is spamming Surging Strikes, which is completely shut down by 
(who can 2HKO you with Glacial Lance).
and 
can't be activated at the same time. You have to decide between one or the other, and you'd be much better off using 
only belongs on 
Sticky Web teams, along with the fact it runs 
instead of 
also doesn't work on this team, as its a stall mon (with other bulky walls like 
, 
, and 
). It's too passive and invites in too many threats like 
. 
and is a healthy centralizing presence. At the end of the day yeah Ubers is the tier for broken things and if you can't deal with things being a little bit broken this isn't the tier for you. The currently banned mons are well above what my threshold is though there is space between those monsters and something I don't particularly like in the tier, but wouldn't ban. 
should be banned RS/DPP, if the equivilant of 
being used to counter 
?) existed in this tier the mon would certainly be banned. 
/
are the main 
which was a C- threat in SS Ubers when 
which fell off the face of the earth when 
bit out of the way, I thought it had more potential than it did. I also was not one of the seven people who voted for it so I'm not taking full responsibility for that one.
(as far as I know) isn't that good in NDUbers. 
definitely isn't good in NDUbers. And since when does 
? Also I haven't tried 
is bad as well, especially if it's using Flash Cannon.