Older/Newer Pokémon That Would Be Great In Other Generations

[bdt2002]

Warning: The following thread and its posts are not meant to be interpreted as wishlisting, overly competitive-based discussion, and/or cross-thread advertisement. The statements that should be shared in this thread must follow OI thread rules. I myself will attempt to do my best at following these rules. Viewer and poster discretion is advised.



You guys see these two Pokémon right here? Slaking and Regigigas have a lot of things in common, enough to where posting about them here would save me the effort of initially having to bring them up in my "Pokémon That Are Clones Of Other Pokémon" thread. Granted, we already know why they are so similar, and if you don't, I'd be happy to get you caught up with some posts in that thread. But for now, let's try and stay on course.

These two got me thinking about something a while back. What would these Pokémon be like if a person had the ability to use them... well, without their signature Abilities? The Slakoth family were some of those new Hoenn Pokémon created to advertise the new-at-the-time concept, after all. A generation later we got the trio master of the Regis who shared its type and some of its base stats with Slaking, and just happened to also have another garbage signature Ability for game balance purposes. I realized that some of the Pokémon games, notably the ones before Gen 3, did not have Abilities as a mechanic at all.

Situations like this are what I created this potential discussion thread for. Each generation of this wonderful franchise has been so delicate and specific with the new mechanics they introduced to the fanbase, casual and competitive players alike. For all intents and purposes, I'll be looking at any Pokémon addressed here in one of two categories.

1. A newer Pokémon that would go great with older Generations' mechanics (Such as my Slaking example)
2. An older Pokémon that was cut from a game but would love its mechanics (I expect to see lots of "Dexit" here)

I don't think there's anything else to address, so what do you say we dive right in? Friendly discussions are always fun, after all. :D

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Well, there's the obvious answer that all manner of Steel and Dark Pokemon would have done amazingly in RBY, but I'll leave that to one side.

I figure Slaking/Regigigas would have been crippled in some other way if they were introduced in Gen I. Maybe it'd have still had sky-high stats but only learned weak moves. Like, nothing over 40 BP.

Anyway...

Lucario would have absolutely cleaned up in Gen II (assuming it had the right moves, which... well, it's Gen II so probably not, but let's assume it does). Fighting and Steel are both very good typings in that generation, and it's kind of strange in hindsight that they didn't think to combine them earlier. It would have made a joke out of Tyranitar and been able to stand up to both Espeon and Umbreon while also being highly useful against several of the Gyms in Johto. Only Earthquake users and fast Fire-types would really have been able to threaten it. Heracross would in theory have been able to stand up to it, but... Heracross didn't learn any decent Fighting moves until Gen III, so would have to rely on Earthquake like everyone else. Lucario has never been particularly reliant on any of its abilities so their loss wouldn't trouble it too much.

 

[Siggu]

The best-looking Gen VI Pokémon was unfortunately released one generation too late. It would have had A LOT of fun in the Gen V infinite weather wars.

Save for hail, it has an ability for each weather.

 

[bdt2002]

Well, there's the obvious answer that all manner of Steel and Dark Pokemon would have done amazingly in RBY, but I'll leave that to one side.

I figure Slaking/Regigigas would have been crippled in some other way if they were introduced in Gen I. Maybe it'd have still had sky-high stats but only learned weak moves. Like, nothing over 40 BP.

Anyway...

Lucario would have absolutely cleaned up in Gen II (assuming it had the right moves, which... well, it's Gen II so probably not, but let's assume it does). Fighting and Steel are both very good typings in that generation, and it's kind of strange in hindsight that they didn't think to combine them earlier. It would have made a joke out of Tyranitar and been able to stand up to both Espeon and Umbreon while also being highly useful against several of the Gyms in Johto. Only Earthquake users and fast Fire-types would really have been able to threaten it. Heracross would in theory have been able to stand up to it, but... Heracross didn't learn any decent Fighting moves until Gen III, so would have to rely on Earthquake like everyone else. Lucario has never been particularly reliant on any of its abilities so their loss wouldn't trouble it too much.

I never really thought about Lucario in GSC before, but I guess you do have a point there. The typing didn't have that many counters in gen 2 like you said, and the ones that did exist had their own issues to deal with, meaning Lucario would fit well onto various cores.

The best-looking Gen VI Pokémon was unfortunately released one generation too late. It would have had A LOT of fun in the Gen V infinite weather wars.

Save for hail, it has an ability for each weather.

And Volt Switch. Can't forget Volt Switch. Dry Skin Toxicroak already saw some good use as an anti-rain pick too, but imagine one with moves to beat Water-Types on top of that.

 

[Chadlad50]

Calyrex-S would be so broken in Gen 1.

Busted typing with essentially no weakness since psychic is accidentally immune to Ghost in gen 1, plus an immunity to Normal which is the second best typing in Gen 1, an immense special stat, and the highest speed in the game.

 

[Hugin]

The updated perma-weather pokes in Gen V, obviously, would be a nightmare. Politoed was bad enough, but Pelipper? Sandaconda or Gigalith? Torkoal over Ninetails? It'd be a disaster. And that's before we mention things like Sandslash-A or the Galar Fossils, which would be scary.

In-game in Hoenn, the only water-ground types available are Swampert and Whiscash(which comes relatively late). Quagsire, Gastrodon, and Seismitoed would all sweep everything nearly as easily as Swampert does if they were available.

Furfrou hits 102 speed and can tank a +1 Salamence Outrage, which would be a hilarious counter to Salamence in the DPPt days(though probably not a GOOD counter)

 

[The Mind Electric]

On the topic of Pokémon that would be way better if they existed before abilities...

Oh yeah, we're gaming.

 

[bdt2002]

Calyrex-S would be so broken in Gen 1.

Busted typing with essentially no weakness since psychic is accidentally immune to Ghost in gen 1, plus an immunity to Normal which is the second best typing in Gen 1, an immense special stat, and the highest speed in the game.

Ha. Isn't that the truth. We'd essentially be looking at a Pokémon who has base 165 Special Attack, base 165 Special Defense, base 150 Speed and a 29.29% critical hit ratio to go along with it, a STAB bonus off of the best Type in the game, all while having no weaknesses of its own by virtue of the Gen 1 type matchup chart. It would even be quite a bit bulkier alongside every other Pokémon because of stat experience over EVs as an added bonus. And like you said, the Normal-Type immunity always helps.

The updated perma-weather pokes in Gen V, obviously, would be a nightmare. Politoed was bad enough, but Pelipper? Sandaconda or Gigalith? Torkoal over Ninetails? It'd be a disaster. And that's before we mention things like Sandslash-A or the Galar Fossils, which would be scary.

In-game in Hoenn, the only water-ground types available are Swampert and Whiscash(which comes relatively late). Quagsire, Gastrodon, and Seismitoed would all sweep everything nearly as easily as Swampert does if they were available.

Furfrou hits 102 speed and can tank a +1 Salamence Outrage, which would be a hilarious counter to Salamence in the DPPt days(though probably not a GOOD counter)

The idea of something like Furfrou being a Salamence counter is actually pretty funny, but in all seriousness, the Galar fossils would be absolutely stupid, especially Dracovish. You know how this thing was banned from Gen 8 OU because it could just click Fishious Rend and kill things while also being the single best counter to rain teams?

Let's take that Pokémon we all know and hate, and add permanent weather, remove the Fairy-Types (and also the move Freeze-Dry lol) and give this thing Water Absorb (remember Sand Rush is banned in Gen 5 OU) and a Choice Scarf for good measure.

 

[Ironmage]

Kommo-o in gens 4-5 would probably be pretty crazy even without its signature moves just by virtue of having unresisted STABs without the Fairy type existing (and the lack of ghost/steel before the Honedge line). I chose to start with gen 4 since that's when Close Combat becomes available as a strong Fighting move, though it could still be pretty mean with Superpower in gen 3.

 

[spookysocialist]

Mandibuzz would be pretty nuts in gen3, pre-stealth rock and a much lower power level to punch through it's defenses. It obviously loses roost but that doesn't stop skarmory and mandibuzz functions a lot like skarm with lower defense and a rock weakness but much, much better spdef that lets it stall things like bulky waters and walk all over celebi. You probably just run toxic/protect for damage and leftovers recovery, whirlwind to rack up spikes pressure on tyranitar and it's other counters, and taunt. It's actually pretty fast for a defensive mon and can taunt most opponents before they can rest or toxic it. Especially if they gave it overcoat or some other sand immune ability it would be top tier.

Speaking of gen3 probably any decent later gen ghost would fit it very well. This is a gen where Gengar sees defensive use, to give you an idea of how important ghost typing/spinblocking. Jellicent is probably the best of the bunch thanks to good defenses, recover, and surfbeam (no wisp tho) basically makes it a spinblocking milotic. Some other highlights include dusknoir which is basically a dusclops that can do damage with it's shadow ball, froslass is frail but can spinblock + spikes and can hit most spinners hard with boltbeam + hp:fire, decidueye has good mixed offenses with leaf blade + shadow ball (probably needs mag support though so you can run hp:fighting for tar), runerigus probably isn't a good spinblocker due to it's water+ice weaknesses but is a pretty good offensive mon with mag support that has lots of oppurtunities to switch in with normal/fighting/electric/sand immunities. Finally, Dragapult is like a mixmence that outspeeds everything without even having to max speed - claw/ball/fthrower/hp:fight cleans up late game with spikes like nothing.

 

[KaenSoul]

A RBY Serperior may not seem that impressive, but is faster than Tauros, can paralyze anything with Glare and has access to Wrap for a really annoying moveset.
But with only 75/75 attacking stats and no good grass moves (or anything outside hyper beam and wrap) it will be hard to kill anything.

 

[Hugin]

Any Psychic type was king in Gen I, so bringing back Gardevoir or whatever really doesn't say much. But it's worth looking at how much a perpetual-NU like Musharna would dominate the meta. 116/85/100 bulk with 100 SAtk is similar to Slowbro, and it learns Defense Curl, Hypnosis, and Amnesia. Or Claydol: 60/105/120, 75 speed, 70/120 offenses, STAB EQ/Psychic, Explosion, Ice Beam, various support tech.

 

[Ironmage]

Rhyperior would be another interesting pick for gen 1 if mons are allowed their signature moves. In addition to obviously stat-creeping Rhydon that was already good at the time, it would also be capable of using Rock Wrecker with gen 1 hyper beam mechanics (i.e. no recharge turn on KO). The same could be said for other mons with signature Hyper Beam clones, but we were already pretty sure Dialga and Necrozma were going to be extremely strong on their typing alone.

 

[bdt2002]

Kommo-o in gens 4-5 would probably be pretty crazy even without its signature moves just by virtue of having unresisted STABs without the Fairy type existing (and the lack of ghost/steel before the Honedge line). I chose to start with gen 4 since that's when Close Combat becomes available as a strong Fighting move, though it could still be pretty mean with Superpower in gen 3.

Yes, yes, Dragon/Fighting would be a pretty busted typing in the DS era games before Fairies and all. Kommo-o also has the advantage of being bulkier than most dragons (before Close Combat, of course), and unlike very specific coverage moves such as Superpower on Hydreigon for example, Kommo-o actually gains an incredibly useful fighting STAB bonus. Finally, I'd like to give a shoutout to Kommo-o's Overcoat hidden ability, which would grant it an immunity to the omnipresent Hail and Sand weather in those generations.

Mandibuzz would be pretty nuts in gen3, pre-stealth rock and a much lower power level to punch through it's defenses. It obviously loses roost but that doesn't stop skarmory and mandibuzz functions a lot like skarm with lower defense and a rock weakness but much, much better spdef that lets it stall things like bulky waters and walk all over celebi. You probably just run toxic/protect for damage and leftovers recovery, whirlwind to rack up spikes pressure on tyranitar and it's other counters, and taunt. It's actually pretty fast for a defensive mon and can taunt most opponents before they can rest or toxic it. Especially if they gave it overcoat or some other sand immune ability it would be top tier.

Speaking of gen3 probably any decent later gen ghost would fit it very well. This is a gen where Gengar sees defensive use, to give you an idea of how important ghost typing/spinblocking. Jellicent is probably the best of the bunch thanks to good defenses, recover, and surfbeam (no wisp tho) basically makes it a spinblocking milotic. Some other highlights include dusknoir which is basically a dusclops that can do damage with it's shadow ball, froslass is frail but can spinblock + spikes and can hit most spinners hard with boltbeam + hp:fire, decidueye has good mixed offenses with leaf blade + shadow ball (probably needs mag support though so you can run hp:fighting for tar), runerigus probably isn't a good spinblocker due to it's water+ice weaknesses but is a pretty good offensive mon with mag support that has lots of oppurtunities to switch in with normal/fighting/electric/sand immunities. Finally, Dragapult is like a mixmence that outspeeds everything without even having to max speed - claw/ball/fthrower/hp:fight cleans up late game with spikes like nothing.

Hey look, another Overcoat Pokémon. Funny how that works. That just goes to show how stupid Sand Stream was back in the day in my opinion. Anyways, Mandibuzz seems like a perfect fit for that Generation the more I think of it, and would provide defensive teams with some much needed utility. A set of Toxic, Protect, Whirlwind, and Taunt could face some competition with the far more physically defensive Skarmory, but Mandibuzz has its own advantages over the armored bird, including a better Ability, a Psychic-Type immunity, and far better special bulk. I'd even go as far as to say that these two could form a nasty hybrid core alongside a bulky Water/Ground specifically, such as Swampert.

As for newer Generation Ghost-Types, I can think of a few notable ones off the top of my head. I am obligated to bring up Dusknoir because Dusclops is ranked as UUBL in Gen 3 singles, meaning its evolution would also be UUBL level at worst. Dragapult is another great example that you mentioned who actually trades out some of its better Dragon-Type options in later Generations for an actually viable physical Ghost-Type STAB in Shadow Ball by virtue of the physical/special split. Sinnoh's resident Drifblim feels like an absolute sleeper pick, though. Like Gengar, it's immune to Rapid Spin, Spikes, and Arena Trap, but it also has massive HP and various ways to increase its defensive stats. Aftermath would be a bit of a commodity in Gen 3's meta, and it even has a bit of offensive utility if you know where to look.

A RBY Serperior may not seem that impressive, but is faster than Tauros, can paralyze anything with Glare and has access to Wrap for a really annoying moveset.
But with only 75/75 attacking stats and no good grass moves (or anything outside hyper beam and wrap) it will be hard to kill anything.

The hilarious part is, this could actually work in a real match setting. Serperior's 113 Speed tier gets the jump on several RBY threats, such as Tauros, Zapdos, and even Gengar since apparently Ghost-Types can still be affected by Wrap in Gen 1 which I actually didn't know until just recently. RBY Serperior likely wouldn't have the best weighted matchups in the world (lower Special, Ice weakness, very weak STAB options, no recovery), but that wouldn't be Serperior's gameplan anyway. It would run on very annoying set and run it well into the process.

Any Psychic type was king in Gen I, so bringing back Gardevoir or whatever really doesn't say much. But it's worth looking at how much a perpetual-NU like Musharna would dominate the meta. 116/85/100 bulk with 100 SAtk is similar to Slowbro, and it learns Defense Curl, Hypnosis, and Amnesia. Or Claydol: 60/105/120, 75 speed, 70/120 offenses, STAB EQ/Psychic, Explosion, Ice Beam, various support tech.

"The Pokémon here are so chunky! There should be a pink one with a floral pattern!" I'm sorry, I just had to mention that. On a side note, did you guys know that this theory about Munna in Gen 1 is only half true and was more of a nod to the Game Boy games than the other way around? But yeah, what can I say about bulky Psychic-Types? High Special stats is certainly a good place to start, and by this point we all know stupid the Psychic-Type was in Gen 1. Potentially strong options include the two you mentioned (Musharna and Claydol), as well as Latias/Latios, Reuniclus, and a surprise pick in the form of Delphox (access to partial trapping, access to Hypnosis for sleep, high Special and Speed, and Fire Blast has a 30% burn rate). Many Psychic-Types also have access to strong recovery options too.

Rhyperior would be another interesting pick for gen 1 if mons are allowed their signature moves. In addition to obviously stat-creeping Rhydon that was already good at the time, it would also be capable of using Rock Wrecker with gen 1 hyper beam mechanics (i.e. no recharge turn on KO). The same could be said for other mons with signature Hyper Beam clones, but we were already pretty sure Dialga and Necrozma were going to be extremely strong on their typing alone.

In the modern Ghost-Type section of another reply on this post, you may have noticed what I said about Dusclops turning into Dusknoir. This is actually a very similar situation to that, and Rock Wrecker would actually be even better than you mentioned, since RBY has a lack of good Rock-Type moves. You've got a 65% accurate version of Rock Throw, you've got a Rock Slide variant that can't flinch (not like it matters here with Rhydon's lower Speed), and... that's it. Seriously, those are the only Rock-Type moves in Gen 1. If an RBY Rhyperior variant existed, it would essentially be a hate crime to not give it access to a much better, generation friendly signature move for that reason alone. Before I forget, let's assume that for all future posts in this thread, signature moves and Abilities are allowed, but anything else from later Generations is not. For example, Rhyperior could get Rock Wrecker in RBY but not Megahorn (and besides, that's Heracross's signature move anyway).

 

[Nokocchi]

Reposting a deleted post because I posted it in the wrong thread, with new additions at the end:

Since trying to theorize in Gen I would make me have to guess whether their Special Attack or Special Defense would be their Special stat, I will use these for Gen II instead:

Pokemon with both attack stats being usable, but one being so much higher that there is no reason to use the other, would function quite well under the Gen II mechanics where all stats can be maxed out instead of a maximum of two.

On another tangent, there are many Gen I Pokemon that have in later gens received moves they WISH they had in Gen I.

For Example, Venusaur would gain Sludge, Earthquake, and Amnesia.

-Sludge, which it got as an Egg move in more recent gens, is the strongest Poison move in Gen I, and would actually give Venusaur a STAB option for that type
-Earthquake is just a really good coverage move, since its Gen I offensive movepool is just normal and grass moves
-Amnesia is bonkers in Gen I, only downside is that Razor Leaf would ignore the stat boosts it gave when critting unless you were playing on Pokemon Stadium, meaning Mega Drain would be needed to make the most of it.

Ignoring TM retcons(like the above Earthquake), there are so many Gen I moves that are now mass-distributed, ones that weren't in Gen I, even if you included Gen II tradeback(The Elemental Punches being the most obvious example of that case). Here is a list that includes all of those moves, no matter how awful they are in Gen I(Focus Energy...)

-Agility
-Bind
-Fire Spin
-Focus Energy
-Hydro Pump
-Leech Life
-Light Screen
-Low Kick
-Pin Missile
-Screech
-String Shot
-Super Fang

Some are useless, but others like Bind, Fire Spin, and Hydro Pump would've loved to have mass distribution back in Gen I.

Repost Additions: Other broad Pokemon situations that would work better in older gens I came up with since I original post this

-Pokemon with coverage moves they can't use due to their stats... but would've been useful to have if those Pokemon got them back in Gen I-III. For this I am only referring to Pokemon and Moves introduced in Gen III or earlier, but the latter wasn't obtained by the former until Gen IV or later, and by that point they are the wrong damage category to use them well. Like physically-inclined Bug types getting Silver Wind or Signal beam after they both became special in Gen IV. Or specially inclined pokemon getting access to Crunch as a coverage move, when they would've been able to use it well in Gen II and III.

-defensively-inclined Gen VI and later Steel types in Gen II-V, especially ones that are part psychic or ghost. While their Steel STAB would be mostly useless due to no fairies, defensive Steel types would get resistance to Ghost and Dark moves(or neutrality to them in the cases of Aegislash, Solgaleo and Dusk Necrozma)

-Any Pokemon, both old and new, that legally got the combination of Mean Look/Spider Web/Block AND Baton Pass in Gen V or later. In Gen II-IV, trapping moves could be baton passed to a team mate.

 

[Pikachu315111]

I figure Slaking/Regigigas would have been crippled in some other way if they were introduced in Gen I. Maybe it'd have still had sky-high stats but only learned weak moves. Like, nothing over 40 BP.

Slaking: They would have likely pulled back its HP, Speed, and Special stats. Pulling its BST back to what Gyarados was (Gen I was 480, Gen II+ is 540) I'm thinking:

• Current Stats: 150/160/100/95/65/100//670
• Gen I: 100/150/90/45/95//480
• Gen II: 100/150/90/60/45/95//540

Still pretty powerful but a crippling Special/Special Defense weakness (especially with less HP). It also means it wouldn't be able to effectively use the Special category moves which was a notable trait for Normal-types back then having a super wide TM movepool.

Regigigas: Being a Legendary and its drawback is that it starts off with halved stats, I think this could easily be done by just making it initially weak but it has a Signature Move that raises its Attack, Special/Special Attack, & Speed stats by +1:

• Current Stats: 110/160/110/80/110/100//670
• Gen I 110/80/110/80/50//430
• Gen II: 110/80/110/40/110/50//500

After the second turn Regigigas would be at the "intended" stats + still room to grow stronger. However it trades off having to specifically focus on increasing its stats instead of being able to use some other moves.

On the topic of Pokémon that would be way better if they existed before abilities...

Oh yeah, we're gaming.

Hmm... I wouldn't do exactly what I did with Regigigas. Instead, I think it would keep its high Speed stat, have a low Attack & Special/Special Attack, but has a Signature Move which increases its Attack & Special/Special Attack by +2 each but lowers HP by 25% (though in return maybe increase its HP):

• Current Stats: 75/140/65/112/65/110//567
• Gen I: 100/70/65/55/110//400
• Gen II: 100/70/65/55/65/110//465

While not exactly how Archeops works, I think it somewhat recreates the feeling of using it. Using its Signature Move once gives you what Archeops is meant to be, but not only is that a free hit for the opponent against a Pokemon with low defenses but Archeops also loses a bit of HP. It's high risk, high reward, if Archeops can survive at least one turn it'll be a deadly sweeper whereas the Archeops we have now you pretty much never want it to be hit because it'll likely go below half HP and might as well be fainted.

Guess I should add some. Hmm...

More Ghost-types In Gen I & II: How about starting there? Since the only Ghost-types in Gen I was the Ghastly family and Gen II only added Misdreavus, would be interesting to see how other Ghost-types would have worked. I'm thinking along the lines of the Shuppet family (high physical attacker) the Duskull family (hefty defenses plus good Physical attacker). Remember, Ghost was a Physical category not Special for some reason; Gengar had to wait for Gen IV to be able to use its STABs (since Poison was also a Physical stat). Golett family would probably also be another fun Ghost-type to have back then.

Before Stealth Rock: spookysocialist has the good idea, let's go back in time before Stealth Rock and add these Pokemon: Vespiquen, Yanmega, Volcarona, Talonflame, Centiskorth, & Frosmoth.

Steel-types In Gen I: Hey, here's a fun idea, how about sending a Pokemon back to a previous gen where they didn't have it's Type? Would any of them improve? Starting with Steel, Bronzor family could have been a pretty impressive defensive pure Psychic-type. While we already had high defensive Rock-types, Aggron, Bastiodon & Probopass probably would appreciate not being double weak to Fighting & Ground. I also don't think Heatran gets much use of its part Steel-type.

Dark-types In Gen I: I know nowadays Tyranitar relies a lot on its Dark-type moves, but would be interesting to see what it would be as a pure Rock-type (or have it retain its Rock/Ground) pseudo in Gen I. Malamar also probably wouldn't mind not being double weak to Bug, it's also resistant to Psychic so doesn't really need the immunity.

Fairy-types Before Gen VI: I don't think Ribombee would lose much, its stats are also pretty decent and Pollen Puff could maybe give it an interesting niche.

Rotom Forms In Gen IV: Hey, imagine the Rotom forms having their Type changes in Gen IV. Man, sure would have been interesting, maybe a Sinnoh remake could do that as long as they don't keep the stupid original restriction of needing the National Dex unlocked to get Rotom...