With the new mechanics, weather has a completely new dynamic in Ubers. Instead of their being a sidelines fight over control of the battle conditions, permanent weather only lasts a mere 5 turns. (or 8 if user holds an extension rock like Heat Rock) How will this affect teams in ubers? Will Chlorophyll abusers die off? (who am I kidding, they all sucked anyways) Will the new Solar Power users still have a chance at shining? Will Groudon fall from the competition with the other powerful, bulky Ground-types? Is Blaziken doomed without this additional source in power or will the equal recession of rain actually make it more consistent? Will there be a rise in multiweather teams as the two/three weathers clash less and potentially lose their individual significance? Feel free to discuss any speculation concerning sun in this thread.
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Sun
- Thread starter MMII
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I think the nerf to all the weathers helped out sun a lot, since sun was already a more offensive weather to use. Since weather teams might end up being more offensive to take advantage of nerfed weather now, Sun might come out on top since most teams can probably operate without it if they take advantage of it while they have it; as opposed to the other weathers, which were used more for their defensive perks more often than not.
If anything, you could argue that it's the opposite. Stallier teams were prepared for when they wouldn't have weather control cause they tended to give more free turns, thus more opportunities to bring in that sun-boosted Ho-Oh. Offensive teams that actually tried to abuse weather relied on that relentless pressure, which now putters out after a few turns. It's not like you can speed up your weather teams, either, if anything the metagame slowed down cause Defog (and the weather nerf)
Anyways, I feel like sun was least nerf but the most affected. Your standard sun offense didn't really rely on sun as much as a rain offense would (for SS and never miss hurricanes) but one of the largest draws to sun was to dick with rain, which isn't a big thing anymore. (well Kyogre is still fantastic, but the guys that profited from rain, like Kabutops, could munch a sun team is donner wasn't around to stop it) Now Groudon is just another bulky ground type who's a bit different from the others because he can phaze and Fire Punch shit.
Anyways, I feel like sun was least nerf but the most affected. Your standard sun offense didn't really rely on sun as much as a rain offense would (for SS and never miss hurricanes) but one of the largest draws to sun was to dick with rain, which isn't a big thing anymore. (well Kyogre is still fantastic, but the guys that profited from rain, like Kabutops, could munch a sun team is donner wasn't around to stop it) Now Groudon is just another bulky ground type who's a bit different from the others because he can phaze and Fire Punch shit.
@ Jexulus and Melee Mewtwo: I'm sort of in between with what you guys said. To me (at least for now) it seems like the new ubers metagame is very tailored towards bulky offense rather than stall or hyper offense. Because of that, when looking at bulky offense teams, the nerf to weather doesn't really seem to have changed much. Hyper offense teams with pokemon like Kabutops or Venusaur suffer because it is no longer about just taking out the opposing weather inducer and sweeping with the pokemon's weather boosted speed. If defog didn't exist than stall would prevail, but since it gives those hyper offense teams a way to just get rid of your 3 layers of spikes, 2 layers of toxic spikes, etc so easily, I feel it makes people a little more reluctant to go through the hassle of putting down entry hazards. Of course things are never that cut and dry, so let me explain a little further.
Stall players use a lot of psychological warfare. Many times it is less about beating the opponent and more about breaking their spirit and causing them to forfeit. See, the best stall players give the successful appearance that their team is invincible, and they will slowly take down your pokemon, one by one, as you hopelessly try to take down theirs.
On the other hand, the best offensive players realize how the best stall players operate and know it is only a matter of time until luck becomes part of the equation. If a critical hit happens about 1 in every 16 turns, then the more time that goes on the more likely it is for that offensive player to get that perfectly timed critical that can cause them to defeat one vital pokemon on the stall team, regain momentum, and gain the confidence that hyper offense teams rely upon.
Basically what I'm saying is that the weather nerf has eliminated most forms of hyper offense, but defog has given offensive players another means of regaining confidence against stall teams, thus, in my opinion making stall a little less viable.
Less Hyper Offense+Less Stall=More Bulky Offense
And with regards to the sun, there were just as many bulky offense teams as hyper offense teams, possibly more, so it hasn't really changed all that much.
Stall players use a lot of psychological warfare. Many times it is less about beating the opponent and more about breaking their spirit and causing them to forfeit. See, the best stall players give the successful appearance that their team is invincible, and they will slowly take down your pokemon, one by one, as you hopelessly try to take down theirs.
On the other hand, the best offensive players realize how the best stall players operate and know it is only a matter of time until luck becomes part of the equation. If a critical hit happens about 1 in every 16 turns, then the more time that goes on the more likely it is for that offensive player to get that perfectly timed critical that can cause them to defeat one vital pokemon on the stall team, regain momentum, and gain the confidence that hyper offense teams rely upon.
Basically what I'm saying is that the weather nerf has eliminated most forms of hyper offense, but defog has given offensive players another means of regaining confidence against stall teams, thus, in my opinion making stall a little less viable.
Less Hyper Offense+Less Stall=More Bulky Offense
And with regards to the sun, there were just as many bulky offense teams as hyper offense teams, possibly more, so it hasn't really changed all that much.
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No offense but your understanding of stall is misinformed.
The psychological aspect may very well be present but only against inexperienced players. A good stall should actually be hard to crack and capable of walling the opponent's team with proper play. They should also be limiting the odds of getting haxed by not feeding your opponent free turns, exactly like you would with any other team archetype.
Defog isn't a nerf to stall, it just extremely limits/removes the hazards game aspect that was seen in the previous generation. Hazards was valuable to stall because it was fast, easy damage much like it was for offense. Stall teams still needed Toxic someplace for last mons scenarios that you couldn't kill by phazing. Defog means all team archetypes won't have that quick, easy damage beyond SR (which we can arguably dismiss as a standard battle condition now) which means stall teams will just use more Toxic to make up for it. If anything, stall is stronger this gen than it was in the last one.
However, you are right to say that bulky offense is the dominant style. It very often is in many metagames and it was arguably already the most dominant last gen as well.
The psychological aspect may very well be present but only against inexperienced players. A good stall should actually be hard to crack and capable of walling the opponent's team with proper play. They should also be limiting the odds of getting haxed by not feeding your opponent free turns, exactly like you would with any other team archetype.
Defog isn't a nerf to stall, it just extremely limits/removes the hazards game aspect that was seen in the previous generation. Hazards was valuable to stall because it was fast, easy damage much like it was for offense. Stall teams still needed Toxic someplace for last mons scenarios that you couldn't kill by phazing. Defog means all team archetypes won't have that quick, easy damage beyond SR (which we can arguably dismiss as a standard battle condition now) which means stall teams will just use more Toxic to make up for it. If anything, stall is stronger this gen than it was in the last one.
However, you are right to say that bulky offense is the dominant style. It very often is in many metagames and it was arguably already the most dominant last gen as well.
That"s fine, I thought I had grouped all the weather threads together into a general topic. Guess not oops.
Oh come on, that's cheating. Obviously, you are going to be slightly weak to threats that take advantage of hte only given mon on a team (well it's a subjective term but I'm assuming just having a fairy and a ground type isn't enough for you) and everything is weak to mega gengar.
Anyways, I think you are underestimating some of Kyogre's own utility (dicking with blaze's flare blitz, absorbing status for the team, checking mewtwos, doing what scarf/specs do, etc) just can't write a tl;dr about it right now.
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