Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

Supermajorities are important because they indicate that the result isn't a swing result. Say you have 99 total votes and something receives 50 votes to in favour of a ban. A single voter swing (which could've been achieved if the vote had e.g. been held a week earlier or later or if one person hadn't slept through their alarm clock on the last day of laddering or whatever) would have been enough to change the result from a majority to a minority, and if there had been one extra voter it could have just as easily been a 50:50 split. As such, it is safe to say that taking action would be controversial and statistically insignificant. As such, the burden is placed on the party looking for change to demonstrate that it is decidedly the most desirable option—or, more accurately, the option that most people say they want, as what people say they want does not necessarily align with what they actually want or what is the actual correct course of action; gamers are great at spotting symptoms but not very good at identifying problems (case study: Jago in Killer Instinct (1:19:17–1:21:40; timestamp linked)).

A supermajority is an arbitrary point at which we deem a majority to be statistically significant. This could be 11:9 (11/20 (55%)), 3:2 (3/5 (60%)), 2:1 (2/3 (66.67%)), 3:1 (3/4 (75%)) or whatever other ratio, but as a broad rule of thumb, a higher supermajority requirement increases the significance of a vote in exchange for making it harder to enact action. IIRC the one used by OU is 3:2; my personal preference is 2:1; depending on who you ask, you will get different numbers for where they say they believe the sweet spot is, but whatever is set for a specific suspect test is all that actually matters. Smogon doesn't have the resources or even necessarily anyone qualified enough to do anything as in-depth as a paid game developer working full-time in the balance department, but we can at least get a loose image and conservatively trim the edges to get something that is okay enough provided we don't have too itchy of a trigger finger, which is what supermajorities aim to inhibit. Of course, for an environment unlike OU, a simple majority may be preferable, either because the format is highly unstable (e.g. lower tiers with frequent tier shifts) or because the playerbase is small to the point that a lot of supermajority benchmarks would end up being swing votes regardless (e.g. most OMs).
Thanks for that.

I personally think supermajority would be much more needed in lower tiers than for OU because there is way less voters for lower tiers than for OU suspect which means the chance of getting 50% on both sides is far greater than for OU. For this generation, almost all OU suspects reach at least 100 voters (the least being Roaring Moon with 97), this is something way above lower tiers.

If we look at last suspect for each lower tier suspect test this is what we have :
SV UU - 44 voters
SV RU - 21 voters
SV NU - 20 voters
SV PU - 25 voters

I don't know what is the best, but I feel like 60% or 66.66% (basically 2/3) is way too high when you have that many people who're voting (talking about OU here).
 
I just don’t really get the complaints of a centralized meta game because that’s literally how games work and how they’ve always worked. This is how opportunity cost and diminishing returns come together.

in competitive COD, there’s almost always been 1-3 guns better than all the rest and that’s all the pro players use.

In yu-gi-oh there are always 1-3 decks at any given time that stand out top tournaments

Any chess fans here? Lmao don’t even get me started on the Anand vs Carlson Berlin Defense games it was legit the exact same opening over and over and over again at the highest level play and yet chess is one of the most competitive games there are.

in basketball there’s a reason why you almost exclusively see lay-ups

should we petition to ban the lay-up in basketball because it’s overcentralizing?

if you think analogies are too abstract to be valid points look at any other OU Pokémon tier, Lax dominates gen 1-2, Ttar and Skarm dominate gen 3.

you can ban 50 mons and 1-3 will still rise to the top every single time. I’m not saying never ban anything but tusk being at %40 usage or kyurem + meow dominating high ladder just isn’t an inherent problem to me. I thought the goal was to make sure the meta stays competitive, not to get rid of shit that we find annoying.

If anything, the ironic thing is a gen like GSC where it’s basically a mirror match is a BETTER game to determine who the better player is, this is more similar to chess where the position starts symmetrical and MITIGATES matchup fishing.
I think you're missing the point about the current meta. To draw on your basketball analogy: Yes, layups, three pointers, and free throws and the most efficient types of shots, and offenses have evolved to hunt for them, but they do so in a variety of ways. There are pnr heavy offenses, iso heavy drive and kick offenses, Spurs-style movement offenses, and so on. Imagine if every team had to play like the James Harden era Rockets to have a shot at winning consistently (or worse, like the University of Wisconsin)? How much more boring would the game be for everybody?

Right now the problem isn't that there are one or two over-centralizing threats. It's that there are only one or two entire team structures that are showing consistent performance at high levels. That's because there are too many threats to account for, leaving a limited number of ways to cover your bases, and fewer ways to slot those things together coherently.

Compare this to when Tusk, Gambit, and Gholdengo were dominating usage. Yeah, there were several clear "best" mons, but they could all be used on a variety of teams and styles and be checked by a variety of archetypes because folks knew what to prepare for.

The biggest "problem", and the entire reason anybody is advocating for anything like kokoloko tiering, is that there's little agreement so far about which, if any, of these threats are broken. It's hard to decide where to start on tiering action, and it is very possible that any initial solitary ban could make things more unstable in the short term as individual threats lose competition and it becomes easier to optimize team structures around them.

I definitely agree that, early on, this meta was high on the fun scale, but the stagnation is creeping down the ladder. It will be really interesting to see where things go from here.
 
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I've heard too much slander of this god terrain, and it is time to put an end to it.

Misty Terrain Offense (and why it sucks less than you think it does)

I've been doing pretty well on ladder with a misty terrain offense team (i've peaked mid-1800s so far and I'm kinda ass). I might do an RMT at some point or something but I'm gonna write up some key points about why it's worth considering as a team style. It does a lot.

Key mechanics: Grounded pokemon cannot be statused. Dragon-type moves' power is halved.

  • The status protection is insane. Your fat setup mon can switch into Alomomola, Gliscor, Slowking, Cinderace or whatever other status-reliant mon with impunity and not worry about any status for up to 7 turns. I cannot stress how helpful this is against stall and balance in particular. But even against offense, Serp can't Glare you, Hatterene can't Nuzzle you, Darkrai can't Hypnosis you... there's still a lot of status that gets used, and being fully immune to it is insane. Something like :kingambit: could be pretty nasty when it doesn't have to use tera fire to evade burns.
  • It protects against contact effects. :maushold: is my favorite abuser of this because it becomes kind of stupid when it can click Population Bomb into Zapdos or Moltres or Volcarona and not ever get statused (knock helmets early game. Maybe try :cinccino: if that's a real mon). Things like :meowscarada: and :weavile:are probably incredibly threatening on a misty team. Knock Off in general is cracked under misty terrain.:zamazenta:is insane under Misty because you don't have to run sub or worry about contact effects. Iron Defense / Body Press / Crunch / Heavy Slam is nuts.
  • It screws over particular mons and strategies. Rest fails when used on Misty Terrain. This allows you to just wear down a Dondozo over the course of the game and not have to worry about it returning to full health. Ursaluna's flame orb will not activate, making it vastly easier to switch into.
  • It shores up your matchup into dragons. This really feels like a dragon-centric meta at the moment, and because dragon moves' power is halved under misty terrain, suddenly dracos just bounce off you. Maushold or like any dark type becomes a Dragapult switch-in. Great Tusk becomes a Raging Bolt switch-in. You no longer have to pray the Gouging Fire doesn't have Outrage. The coolest application of this is running a setup dragon-type that doesn't rely on dragon coverage (because your dragon moves will be weakened too). Misty makes you lose your dragon weakness, so in some cases you can just set up on opposing dragons. Something like :gouging-fire: with Fire/Ground coverage might be a decent example of this.
  • Misty Seed is neat. I'm not sure about Hawlucha because I think it's harder to take advantage of the SpDef boost than a Defense boost, but fat Bulk Up users are a very natural fit for the item and for the team style as a whole. I've actually had a lot of success with Misty Seed :zarude:, which kind of checks every button of what makes a good Misty Terrain abuser.
I think :zapdos-galar: with something like Bulk Up / Acro / Knock / Taunt might be worth trying, potentially with a grounded tera so that it can take advantage of the status immunity (Tera Flying is nice to shed the Fairy and Psychic weaknesses and power up Acro though). With Taunt you can probably just set up on Skarm. Maybe consider Trailblaze too. Bulk Up Misty Seed:slither-wing:is a little hard to figure out in terms of moveslots, but it checks every box, including having recovery in either Leech Life or Morning Sun. Bulk Up Misty Seed Guard Dog :okidogi: seems pretty funny because you're immune to phazing and also status...
  • Winning "terrain wars" is not that hard since you kind of just naturally beat Rillaboom.
Downsides:
  • Your mons have to be grounded to take advantage of this. So something like Hawlucha is not protected from status. Keep in mind though, that terastallizing into any type other than flying will immediately grant the status protection. I've found it's a bit hard to not be weak to ground types when building Misty Terrain teams, so make sure to be mindful of that when building. Consider grass types.
  • Galarian Weezing is ass but it's not that ass. This is what I run. Speed is for Kingambit. It taunts shit, checks things like Valiant, Rillaboom, Meowscarada and Zamazenta, ohkoes the cheeky Scizor that thinks they can U-turn on you, etc. If you're running a more aggressive squad, you can consider something like max SpAtk Strange Steam / Overheat / Taunt / Misty Explosion. There are a lot of decent options and I think you will find that the mon does not generally feel like a dead slot.
:ss/weezing-galar:
Weezing-Galar @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Misty Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Strange Steam
- Overheat

Anyway, I feel like misty terrain offers so much potential in terms of granting free switch-ins, free turns of setup, and defensive boons when you're building mindfully with it. I hope people will mess around with it and STOP SLANDERING THIS GOATED TERRAIN.
 
in competitive COD, there’s almost always been 1-3 guns better than all the rest and that’s all the pro players use.
To be fair, in much more recent times, pros have a habit of banning things that might be too strong so I don't think that analogy works anymore
 

DaRotomMachine

I COULD BE BANNED!
I hope people will mess around with it and STOP SLANDERING THIS GOATED TERRAIN.
before Sneasler ban, i would have said this terrain was terrible, as it prevented Dire CLaw Hax and grassy terrain was just better for it, now I feel its not as bad but its not as good either.

max SpAtk Strange Steam / Overheat / Taunt / Misty Explosion.
Weezing-Galar @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Misty Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Strange Steam
- Overheat
where is Misty Explosion??????:)
 
before Sneasler ban, i would have said this terrain was terrible, as it prevented Dire CLaw Hax and grassy terrain was just better for it, now I feel its not as bad but its not as good either.



where is Misty Explosion??????:)
Yeah, it's a mixed bag. Grassy is a more splashable terrain because Rillaboom is just a way better mon than Geezing, but Misty does do a lot. There's so much status all over the place. Even outside of dedicated status mons, basic shit like Kyurem not being able to freeze you is an invisible but really neat facet of it.

I was running Misty Explosion for a while, and it's definitely solid but my team was fatter and I was finding myself not wanting to click it a lot of times so I could have the terrain for later. It really depends on team style but I currently run the fatter set.
 
To be fair, in much more recent times, pros have a habit of banning things that might be too strong so I don't think that analogy works anymore
I think it does because if you look through posts on Reddit nobody seems to agree with that sentiment at all and it is all people complaining, in the same manner as they do here, that the same 1-2 guns are dominant every single year and any time something comes along that could compete it just gets auto banned for being too good so everything can be kept the same way people are used to. Seems pretty analogous to what’s going on here. We have assumptions of how the meta should be, and if it deviates the solution is to force compliance through bans until it’s what we are used to again.
 
it is dissapointing that I almost never see anyone using duralodon.
I was under the impression that the playerbase was excited that it can finally use eviolite.
personally I use this set:
Duraludon @ Eviolite
Ability: Light Metal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Thunderbolt
 
it is dissapointing that I almost never see anyone using duralodon.
I was under the impression that the playerbase was excited that it can finally use eviolite.
personally I use this set:
Duraludon @ Eviolite
Ability: Light Metal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Thunderbolt
This isn't gen 7 anymore, we can now run walls and have good items. Eviolite, especially in this generation of OU, suffers from 2 factors: the prevalence of knock off and the omnipresence of hazards. Now there were a few other factors involved in this, but Blissey was OU instead of Eviolite chansey despite the latter being bulkier. It's because boots is just a better item than eviolite
 
it is dissapointing that I almost never see anyone using duralodon.
I was under the impression that the playerbase was excited that it can finally use eviolite.
personally I use this set:
Duraludon @ Eviolite
Ability: Light Metal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Thunderbolt
It’s because Archaludon exists and outclasses it and the slight initial bulk you have is not enough to warrent loss in everything else including bulk from Stamina or from HDBs.

This isn't gen 7 anymore, we can now run walls and have good items. Eviolite, especially in this generation of OU, suffers from 2 factors: the prevalence of knock off and the omnipresence of hazards. Now there were a few other factors involved in this, but Blissey was OU instead of Eviolite chansey despite the latter being bulkier. It's because boots is just a better item than eviolite
Eviolite was already dated by around Gen 6 on every Pokemon besides Chansey and Gliscor in lower tiers.
 
Eviolite was already dated by around Gen 6 on every Pokemon besides Chansey and Gliscor in lower tiers.
Eviolite was dated by the time it was released on most pokemon that could run it. Like basically anything outside of LC that's running it is going to either be a slow wall or is named wartortle and is only run because it has rapid spin. Like the 3 pokemon that run eviolite that come to my mind that are genuinely good in the tiers they reside in are Chansey (after gen 5 lmao), Gligar, and Gurdurr. Eviolite sucks ass and the fact that chansey was OU just because of its eviolite bulk for 2 generations that had buffed knock off astounds. But now we have boots so walls don't have to take as much chip from hazards. Like I love gen 7, but whenever I go back to play it's major whiplash seeing everything taking 12% or more from stealth rocks because I'm so used to at least one thing on my teams running boots.
 
in competitive COD, there’s almost always been 1-3 guns better than all the rest and that’s all the pro players use.

In yu-gi-oh there are always 1-3 decks at any given time that stand out top tournaments

Any chess fans here? Lmao don’t even get me started on the Anand vs Carlson Berlin Defense games it was legit the exact same opening over and over and over again at the highest level play and yet chess is one of the most competitive games there are.

in basketball there’s a reason why you almost exclusively see lay-ups
I'll skip CoD and basketball because I don't know anything about them.

But YGO is very proactive in enacting bans both in the TCG and in the current digital format of Master Duel, this last one speeding up bans from once every three months to once every month, allegedly out of popular demand on the monthly surveys to avoid meta stagnation on a platform that is much more active than any competitive format. The OCG Banlist? We don't talk about that.
Trading card games are tricky to compare to our systems because a "solved meta" centered on a number of cards means people are less likely to buy new cards unless you increase the power creep and "unsolve" the meta, which tends to work once or twice but hurts the popularity and long-term viability of the game as a business model if done too much; basically, banning cards is good to sell cards and make more money for longer, so it's not a purely "game quality" topic like it would be here. Although that's also partially mitigated by the fact that over-centralizing cards that are also rare become expensive, and the companies don't want to ban them too quickly because there's money to make there too. MTG has examples for all possibilities in the spectrum; solved metas that died because no one wanted to play them, stale metas that are left as-is to get as much money as possible out of the expensive cards until something gets banned after years of waiting, rotating formats that are made to never stabilize and always require throwing more money at them...

Chess has no bans nor anything similar, but the closest thing I can give you is how the true top level of the world; that is, bots; are forced to play different predetermined openings each match to avoid getting the same results time and time again. This helps make bot-vs-bot competitions entertaining, is useful to gather data on each bot's performance and improve them further, but most importantly, it avoids the result where two bots play a perfect game of chess 2000 times into 2000 draws.
For humans, the opening that you mention is just "one of many options" nowadays, meaning that the chess meta "decentralized" on its own and is not a "solved meta"... at least not for humans, anyway.
Other examples of the game finding ways to change are rule changes. Queen movement, Draw rules, Stalemate rules, Pawn's ability to move two tiles, En Passant... all were added through the years to keep the game in a constant state of change. Many of these work the opposite way to bans; (they add options to alter the balance of the game), but still can be understood within the realm of "actions that maintain the game from staying in a centralized, solved state".
In any case, Chess is hard to compare to other games because it's a forced mirror match where both sides always have the same resources. Pokemon is more comparable to (Collectible/Trading) Card Games where each player has to build up their tools prior to the match, then battle an opponent that has likely made entirely different decisions when building their tools. I'm not calling Pokemon "tools", I swear!


My point is, most games "do" have some form of tackling over-centralization, as they understand that being over-centralized and in a "solved" state is a problem. In fact, an artificial way of installing this variability to keep metas active in pokemon would include ideas like limiting the number of available pokemons in a given game, and/or partitioning their availability to "shake things up" at given intervals. Surely this rings a bell?
Not everything that is overused or centralizing is bad all the time, but a stale meta with little room for change is bad, and over-centralizing presences can very easily cause this problem and always deserves to be treated as, well, a looming problem. And all games should have (and use) the tools to fight it. Specially games that have their high variability as a charm point (not talking about in-game "luck", but team/deck building and match up possibilities).
 
I've heard too much slander of this god terrain, and it is time to put an end to it.

Misty Terrain Offense (and why it sucks less than you think it does)

I've been doing pretty well on ladder with a misty terrain offense team (i've peaked mid-1800s so far and I'm kinda ass). I might do an RMT at some point or something but I'm gonna write up some key points about why it's worth considering as a team style. It does a lot.

Key mechanics: Grounded pokemon cannot be statused. Dragon-type moves' power is halved.

  • The status protection is insane. Your fat setup mon can switch into Alomomola, Gliscor, Slowking, Cinderace or whatever other status-reliant mon with impunity and not worry about any status for up to 7 turns. I cannot stress how helpful this is against stall and balance in particular. But even against offense, Serp can't Glare you, Hatterene can't Nuzzle you, Darkrai can't Hypnosis you... there's still a lot of status that gets used, and being fully immune to it is insane. Something like :kingambit: could be pretty nasty when it doesn't have to use tera fire to evade burns.
  • It protects against contact effects. :maushold: is my favorite abuser of this because it becomes kind of stupid when it can click Population Bomb into Zapdos or Moltres or Volcarona and not ever get statused (knock helmets early game. Maybe try :cinccino: if that's a real mon). Things like :meowscarada: and :weavile:are probably incredibly threatening on a misty team. Knock Off in general is cracked under misty terrain.:zamazenta:is insane under Misty because you don't have to run sub or worry about contact effects. Iron Defense / Body Press / Crunch / Heavy Slam is nuts.
  • It screws over particular mons and strategies. Rest fails when used on Misty Terrain. This allows you to just wear down a Dondozo over the course of the game and not have to worry about it returning to full health. Ursaluna's flame orb will not activate, making it vastly easier to switch into.
  • It shores up your matchup into dragons. This really feels like a dragon-centric meta at the moment, and because dragon moves' power is halved under misty terrain, suddenly dracos just bounce off you. Maushold or like any dark type becomes a Dragapult switch-in. Great Tusk becomes a Raging Bolt switch-in. You no longer have to pray the Gouging Fire doesn't have Outrage. The coolest application of this is running a setup dragon-type that doesn't rely on dragon coverage (because your dragon moves will be weakened too). Misty makes you lose your dragon weakness, so in some cases you can just set up on opposing dragons. Something like :gouging-fire: with Fire/Ground coverage might be a decent example of this.
  • Misty Seed is neat. I'm not sure about Hawlucha because I think it's harder to take advantage of the SpDef boost than a Defense boost, but fat Bulk Up users are a very natural fit for the item and for the team style as a whole. I've actually had a lot of success with Misty Seed :zarude:, which kind of checks every button of what makes a good Misty Terrain abuser.
I think :zapdos-galar: with something like Bulk Up / Acro / Knock / Taunt might be worth trying, potentially with a grounded tera so that it can take advantage of the status immunity (Tera Flying is nice to shed the Fairy and Psychic weaknesses and power up Acro though). With Taunt you can probably just set up on Skarm. Maybe consider Trailblaze too. Bulk Up Misty Seed:slither-wing:is a little hard to figure out in terms of moveslots, but it checks every box, including having recovery in either Leech Life or Morning Sun. Bulk Up Misty Seed Guard Dog :okidogi: seems pretty funny because you're immune to phazing and also status...
  • Winning "terrain wars" is not that hard since you kind of just naturally beat Rillaboom.
Downsides:
  • Your mons have to be grounded to take advantage of this. So something like Hawlucha is not protected from status. Keep in mind though, that terastallizing into any type other than flying will immediately grant the status protection. I've found it's a bit hard to not be weak to ground types when building Misty Terrain teams, so make sure to be mindful of that when building. Consider grass types.
  • Galarian Weezing is ass but it's not that ass. This is what I run. Speed is for Kingambit. It taunts shit, checks things like Valiant, Rillaboom, Meowscarada and Zamazenta, ohkoes the cheeky Scizor that thinks they can U-turn on you, etc. If you're running a more aggressive squad, you can consider something like max SpAtk Strange Steam / Overheat / Taunt / Misty Explosion. There are a lot of decent options and I think you will find that the mon does not generally feel like a dead slot.
:ss/weezing-galar:
Weezing-Galar @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Misty Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Strange Steam
- Overheat

Anyway, I feel like misty terrain offers so much potential in terms of granting free switch-ins, free turns of setup, and defensive boons when you're building mindfully with it. I hope people will mess around with it and STOP SLANDERING THIS GOATED TERRAIN.
I think Misty Terrain has some potential. One key feature is that it weakens Dragon-type moves, which is fantastic against :Kyurem:. :Volcarona: on misty terrain teams is one of the best :Kyurem: counters in the game.
 
Eviolite was dated by the time it was released on most pokemon that could run it. Like basically anything outside of LC that's running it is going to either be a slow wall or is named wartortle and is only run because it has rapid spin. Like the 3 pokemon that run eviolite that come to my mind that are genuinely good in the tiers they reside in are Chansey (after gen 5 lmao), Gligar, and Gurdurr. Eviolite sucks ass and the fact that chansey was OU just because of its eviolite bulk for 2 generations that had buffed knock off astounds. But now we have boots so walls don't have to take as much chip from hazards. Like I love gen 7, but whenever I go back to play it's major whiplash seeing everything taking 12% or more from stealth rocks because I'm so used to at least one thing on my teams running boots.
I mean Eviolite fell off even before Gen 5. Like how often did you see Chansey in OU in Gen 4?

But seriously Eviolite was pretty good in lower tiers at least. You had Dusclops, Porygon2, Gliscor, Ferroseed, and Magneton sometimes.
 
Trading card games are tricky to compare to our systems because a "solved meta" centered on a number of cards means people are less likely to buy new cards unless you increase the power creep and "unsolve" the meta, which tends to work once or twice but hurts the popularity and long-term viability of the game as a business model if done too much; basically, banning cards is good to sell cards and make more money for longer, so it's not a purely "game quality" topic like it would be here.

For humans, the opening that you mention is just "one of many options" nowadays, meaning that the chess meta "decentralized" on its own and is not a "solved meta"... at least not for humans, anyway.
Other examples of the game finding ways to change are rule changes. Queen movement, Draw rules, Stalemate rules, Pawn's ability to move two tiles, En Passant... all were added through the years to keep the game in a constant state of change. Many of these work the opposite way to bans; (they add options to alter the balance of the game), but still can be understood within the realm of "actions that maintain the game from staying in a centralized, solved state".

Not everything that is overused or centralizing is bad all the time, but a stale meta with little room for change is bad, and over-centralizing presences can very easily cause this problem and always deserves to be treated as, well, a looming problem. And all games should have (and use) the tools to fight it. Specially games that have their high variability as a charm point (not talking about in-game "luck", but team/deck building and match up possibilities).
I took snippets of what I thought was relevant if I missed something you deem important I'll happily address it.

1. You even admit in the YGO example this is to increase sales mainly and not for the sake of balance, also I did say that I was not against banning anything at all. I'm mostly against the number/frequency/proposed kokoloko method.

2. Yeah, exactly. Chess players adapted and found solutions and other openings that were viable on their own without intervention like banning an opening every two weeks. It took time, but they adapted. And notice how stagnation was solved by increasing options (en passent) and not jsut banning letting your pawn move two squares on its first move?

3. GSC is a stale meta with little room for change do you think it's bad? If you do fair enough. I don't necessarily think centralized metas are bad they just bore some of the casual player base. Also could you please explain to me how ADV isn't centralized? Who cares if it is/isn't centralized?

Right now the problem isn't that there are one or two over-centralizing threats. It's that there are only one or two entire team structures that are showing consistent performance at high levels. That's because there are too many threats to account for, leaving a limited number of ways to cover your bases, and fewer ways to slot those things together coherently.

Compare this to when Tusk, Gambit, and Gholdengo were dominating usage. Yeah, there were several clear "best" mons, but they could all be used on a variety of teams and styles and be checked by a variety of archetypes because folks knew what to prepare for.

The biggest "problem", and the entire reason anybody is advocating for anything like kokoloko tiering, is that there's little agreement so far about which, if any, of these threats are broken. It's hard to decide where to start on tiering action, and it is very possible that any initial solitary ban could make things more unstable in the short term as individual threats lose competition and it becomes easier to optimize team structures around them.

I definitely agree that, early on, this meta was high on the fun scale, but the stagnation is creeping down the ladder. It will be really interesting to see where things go from here.
There are not only one or two entire team structures that's absurd go look at the RMTs of people who topped ladder and even if they were, you say dhengo/tusk/gambit was a more diverse meta but I didn't really see it much different tbh. If anything I see more mons now because, well, there are more mons lol.

It's hard to tell what's broken because the meta is two weeks old lmfao. Honestly, I think this is more of a question of what's more important: having a meta be competitive or having it be "fun"/"random"

I think the cold reality is the more centralized/stale metas are the more skill-based ones that have lower variance and luck dependency. What do you want? Fair or fun? If you put people in a situation where something doesn't get banned and they have to learn to manage it over a matter on months, they will find ways to adapt and new tech/strategies to accomplish this even if it seems impossible at first.

As broken as GSC Snorlax is people DID find a way/ways to play around it, but the second you start the turbo-ban approach it shifts people's mindset from "can I find a way to deal with this" to "should this be the next thing we ban?" and people stop bothering to adapt because it's unnecessary and everybody is having "fun" anyway.
 
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