VGC The Dark Side of the Sun

Draconid997

Draconid997



Improved Team:
http://pastebin.com/Jjm4x52u

Hey it's Draconid here, back with my latest team!
For this RMT, I wanted to build around something that perhaps hasn't got as much attention as RayOgre, Big 6 or Double Primal: The Yveltal/Primal Groudon archetype.
After messing about with the double primal archetype (you can find the team here), I found that Yveltal was a huge threat to my team and decided to look into building with it. I was really surprised with the amount of potential that this mon had. Yveltal not only has access to some of the best typing for the format, it can also fill both supportive and offensive roles, with access to a tonne of great moves, like snarl, foul play, sucker punch and more. It has fantastic bulk, a great speed tier, and an ability which boosts the power of the already strong priority move sucker punch (as well as its own dark STABs) which can be exploited by the rest of the party.
Onto the team.

At A Glance



This is something i want to build in-game for use on the PGL ladder, so I've tried to craft something that works consistently, but I am sure that there are plenty of holes in the team that can be fixed.

Teambuilding Process



I thought thundurus would be the perfect addition to this core. Reason being is that it allows the two restricted legends to lead against a tonne of common archetypes. Thundurus+Groudon is a great lead vs big 6, and Thundurus+Yveltal can lead against a multitude of other common builds, and also allows yveltal to power up its foul play with thundurus' swagger. Altogether I thought this was a great core and the last 3 slots were ones I used to optimize tough matchups.



Kangaskhan was the next pokemon to be added to the core. A really tricky/annoying matchup for most teams is the gravity archetype, and kangaskhan allows groudon to lead against this team with great success due to its offensive presence and fake out support, which is invaluable support for the core. Kangaskhan is also the first of my 'Dark Spam abusers,' sporting a fast and powerful sucker punch that can be used to great success alongside yveltal.



These last two were hard to pick. It was either Mawile/Landorus-T or Salamence/Ferrothorn in these places, but I eventually picked these due to some matchups which I'll cover later. Put simply, Mawile really boosts this team's matchup against opposing yveltal teams whilst fulfilling the xerneas/rayquaza counter role that salamence would accomplish. Landorus-T checks primal groudon pretty effectively, and supplies the team with intimidate support (as does mawile), which is invaluable for the bulk of the core.

In Depth



Yveltal @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Dark Aura
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 28 Def / 4 SpA / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Snarl
- Oblivion Wing
- Protect

Overview
Total credit to Pyritie for this awesome spread. This is more of a supportive yveltal EV spread for its fast snarl, but can also function offensively, given its other moves. Foul Play is brilliant for kyogre, and oblivion wing is here because of its item, weakness policy, allowing it to recover a bunch of its lost health. Weakness policy was chosen here given Yveltal's natural bulk, which allows it to do some major damage to a lot of common threats.
Here's what this spread can do:​
  • 252 Atk Zap Plate Raichu Volt Tackle vs. 244 HP / 28 Def Yveltal: 194-230 (83.6 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 244 HP / 36 SpD Yveltal in Heavy Rain: 195-231 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 36 SpD Yveltal: 190-226 (81.8 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Wild Charge vs. 244 HP / 28 Def Yveltal: 187-221 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-W Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 36 SpD Yveltal: 186-218 (80.1 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • -1 252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 36 SpD Yveltal: 159-190 (68.5 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 244 HP / 28 Def Yveltal: 194-230 (83.6 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 244 HP / 36 SpD Yveltal: 216-254 (93.1 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
  • 252+ Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 244 HP / 28 Def Yveltal: 188-224 (81 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 244 HP / 28 Def Yveltal: 182-218 (78.4 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Outspeeds max speed base 90s by two points and Landorus-T by one (158)


Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Level: 50
EVs: 12 HP / 236 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Rock Tomb
- Protect

Overview
This is a KyleCole spread, which is a little better than the 4/252/252 variant. 12/4/4 bulk will allow groudon to survive an earthquake from adamant CB landorus-t as well as 2 dazzling gleams from a +2 xerneas, which is pretty cool. Precipice Blades is pretty standard for groudon, Fire Punch is a lot more spammable than overheat, and can't miss, which is favourable. Rock Tomb was my chosen coverage move for a number of reasons: It provides more reliable win conditions than rock slide, is more accurate, provides a relatively reliable form of speed control and allows groudon to check scarf kyurem-white much more easily, whilst accompanied by kangaskhan.



Thundurus @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 180 HP / 60 Def / 4 SpA / 164 SpD / 100 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
- Swagger

Overview
This bulky timid thundurus spread was created by SamVGC and I absolutely love it.
Moves are pretty standard, but the EVs do a tonne of things:​
  • Outspeeds positive 252 speed base 90's by 2 points and landorus-t by one point (158). Speed tying with yveltal doesn't really matter given thundurus priority moves
  • 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 180 HP / 164 SpD Thundurus: 144-170 (81.3 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
  • 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 180 HP / 164 SpD Thundurus in Heavy Rain: 148-175 (83.6 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
  • (Water spout is a 2HKO after taking thunderbolt damage)
  • 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 180 HP / 60 Def Thundurus: 184-218 (103.9 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
  • 252 Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 180 HP / 60 Def Thundurus: 80-94 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
  • +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Dazzling Gleam vs. 180 HP / 164 SpD Thundurus: 150-177 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


Kangaskhan-Mega @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Parental Bond
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 172 Atk / 76 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Low Kick

Overview
You've probably seen this EV spread a thousand times. It is a little more specific than the standard 4/252/252 spread and allows kangaskhan to survive low kick from opposing jolly kangaskhan with the rest distributed in attack and speed. Kangaskhan was super important on this team for providing fake out support, as well as improving the matchup against gravity teams, dialga and for pressuring set ups and TR setters. Overall, I think kangaskhan is a great choice on this build.



Mawile-Mega @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 4 Atk / 52 Def / 60 SpD / 164 Spe
EVs: 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Play Rough
- Sucker Punch
- Protect

Overview
What! A mawile with 4+ Atk!
Yes it's a lot more susceptible to intimidates and burns, but it still does its job well. I decided to go for a much more bulky spread so that it could fulfill these benchmarks, plus it still gets to OHKO most of the stuff it can with 252 Atk:​
  • +2 252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Dazzling Gleam vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Mega Mawile: 67-79 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
  • 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 228 HP / 52 Def Mega Mawile: 66-79 (42.8 - 51.2%) -- 7% chance to 2HKO
  • -1 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 228 HP / 52 Def Mega Mawile: 44-53 (28.5 - 34.4%) -- 4.3% chance to 3HKO
  • 76+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Mega Mawile in Heavy Rain: 130-154 (84.4 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
  • 252 SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Mega Mawile in Heavy Rain: 133-157 (86.3 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
  • -1 252 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 228 HP / 52 Def Mega Mawile in Harsh Sun: 132-156 (85.7 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
  • 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 228 HP / 52 Def Mega Mawile: 64-77 (41.5 - 50%) -- Miniscule chance to 2HKO
  • -1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 228 HP / 52 Def Mega Mawile: 44-52 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- Miniscule chance to 3HKO
  • -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 228 HP / 52 Def Mega Mawile: 132-156 (85.7 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
  • 252+ SpA Palkia Earth Power vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Mega Mawile: 124-146 (80.5 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Outspeeds -2 (Paralysed) Mega Rayquaza
The second spread is still one i would use. It is a lot less bulky, but it allows mawile to outspeed a paralysed mega salamence (as well as rayquaza) and maintains the 252+ Atk stat which allows it to get the OHKO some of the time on threats such as salamence and xerneas when intimidated and kyogre without -1 Atk.



Landorus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 148 Atk / 92 Def / 12 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Superpower

Overview
I feel AV landorus-t is applicable to this team, given that it still 2HKOs most groudon. I am building this team in game, and only have access to an adamant landorus-t at the minute (if anyone has a good jolly landorus-t please let me know). Anyway, I've tried to make do with adamant landorus, and this still does a number of cool things:​
  • 252+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 12 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-T in Harsh Sun: 138-163 (83.6 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 92 Def Landorus-T: 70-83 (42.4 - 50.3%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
  • -1 (Snarl) 252 SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 12 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-T in Heavy Rain: 138-164 (83.6 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • -1 (Snarl) 252 SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 12 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-T: 136-164 (82.4 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Outspeeds neutral max speed base 90s
The ability to switch between moves is really useful in matchups like Ho-Oh/Groudon, as Landorus is going to need both earthquake and rock slide to deal with them without switching out etc. I still think jolly CB would be better in this slot since it has a lot more offensive presence and speed, but this set will still work in its place.

Gameplans
(Standardized using the Frameworks)

Big 6:
(
)
A fast Groudon+Thundurus lead is able to manage most lead combinations from big 6. However, having 2 groudon-weak mons necessitates yveltal in the back. Mawile improves the matchup against salamence and xerneas, although i do think this needs looking over a little.
RayOgre:
(
)
Thundurus+Yveltal puts a lot of pressure on both restricted mons. Weavile does give this team some trouble, but mawile should be able to deal with it once rayquaza is paralysed/dealt with.
Double Primal:
(
)
As I have mentioned, yveltal and double genies offer double primal teams a lot of difficult matchups, which in theory should work in my favour. This definitely needs looking over, but again the thundurus+yveltal lead is quite strong against this pairing
Yveltal Groudon:
(
)
Yveltal+Landorus should in theory work against most leads in this archetype, with groudon and mawile in the back to improve matchups against the typical supporting cast
Gravity:
(
/
)
This is something that I hope to share with you for just general meta knowledge. Gravity teams will, against teams like this, be inclined to lead with sableye/meowstic+scarf kyurem-w. Now to beat kyurem-w, you will need something that can slow it down turn 1 and then KO it the following turn. This counter-lead will need the following in order to not take any damage from kyurem's attacks:​
  • Both pokemon need to be able to outspeed at least modest 252 Spe kyurem-white if using rock tomb/icy wind as speed control
  • Both mons also need not be weak to its blizzard, or any of its coverage moves unless you intend to sacrifice your lead mon.
  • The lead needs to be able to OHKO or shut down Kyurem-w securely on the first/second turn. Groudon is able to KO Kyurem W with a combination of rock tomb and precipice blades; Kangaskhan can OHKO with low kick
  • One pokemon needs access to a reliable form of speed control such as rock tomb, icy wind, tailwind, trick room or thunder wave
  • Ideally you need something that can fake out the Kyurem turn 1, so kangaskhan is the optimal choice here imo
For the pokemon in the back, you will need something that can check groudon reliably as well as something to deal with sleep moves, for example thundurus' taunt on this team. Unfortunately, whimsicott is faster than thundurus' taunt and requires something with both lum berry and taunt for it, like crobat, so this is very difficult to deal with. This is a really hard matchup and isn't something that can be beat without exposing your team's weaknesses to other archetypes.
Sableye and meowstic are very hard to shut down, as most carry mental herb and therefore are able to set up gravity whilst being taunted, so it's easiest imo to try and get rid of them with offense as soon as possible
The best combination of pokemon imho for this matchup in terms of this specific gameplan theory are:
(
)
I would not recommend building a team around these 4 in light of this theory, as i am sure there are gaps in my knowledge and experience of how gravity teams are operated, but this is what i think should work.

Thanks for reading! I'm sure there are gaps in this team, so any constructive comments would really be appreciated.

Shoutouts

Thanks to GradeAGarchomp and iPRODiGY VGC for all their hard work on the VGC RMT sub-forum
Thanks to Legofigure11 for recently helping me out immensely with the restricted mons for all of my recent teams, turns out I did need the timid yveltal after all :] Thanks man
Thanks to Jibaku, Ksh13, Steven Stone and _LightCore for helping me get the Teambuilding workshop up and running
Thanks to IronBullet for welcoming me into the official TR community, and now the Rate of the Week community, and for just being a great guy

Importable
http://pastebin.com/MtkXLRem​
 
Last edited:
Steven Stone

Steven Stone

Man i was here when you started, and because i'm actually more into VGC'16 i feel like rating more tbh.

But god, this is such an amazing RMT! Never seen anything like this before: you go so detailed, so specific, you clarify your matchups and the way you fight them, together with the team which is already good make this RMT something enjoyable to read.

But something i noticed when looking through your team is how fast your team is. I can't help but to think Primal Kyogre's Trick Room may overpower you, although your Pokemon are decently bulky and as long as Yveltal + Mawile + Thundurus are there, you should be able to handle them completely fine.

To sum my thoughts up, play TR matchup carefully. You explain the archetypes well but Trick Room doesn't seem to appear anywhere, so one could assume you don't know how to play that matchup yet.

btw does your Mawile underspeed anything worth noting outside of TR? If so, that's some valuable information right there.

EDIT: Also PLEASE change your signature if you're using this. Although your previous team was really good, this one is way better in my eyes.
 
Last edited:
Draconid997

Draconid997

Steven Stone said:
Man i was here when you started, and because i'm actually more into VGC'16 i feel like rating more tbh.

But god, this is such an amazing RMT! Never seen anything like this before: you go so detailed, so specific, you clarify your matchups and the way you fight them, together with the team which is already good make this RMT something enjoyable to read.

But something i noticed when looking through your team is how fast your team is. I can't help but to think Primal Kyogre's Trick Room may overpower you, although your Pokemon are decently bulky and as long as Yveltal + Mawile + Thundurus are there, you should be able to handle them completely fine.

To sum my thoughts up, play TR matchup carefully. You explain the archetypes well but Trick Room doesn't seem to appear anywere, so one could assume you don't know how to play that matchup yet.

btw does your Mawile underspeed anything worth noting outside of TR? If so, that's some valuable information right there.

EDIT: Also PLEASE change your signature if you're using this. Although your previous team was really good, this one is way better in my eyes.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your kind words, and great rate :)
You are right about TR kyogre, as that is the disadvantage of using mawile/landorus over say salamence/ferrothorn, which would improve this matchup. Unfortunately using salamence over mawile will weaken my matchup against yveltal a little, but it's not something that's too worrying. Those gameplans were really standardised so yeah TR would be dealt with carefully as you say. Yveltal has the advantage of dealing massive damage to common TR setters like bronzong and cresselia, and with thundurus can deal with leads such as primal+TR setter with relative ease if well supported with the back two mons. I'll have a longer, more detailed think about using something like salamence/ferrothorn tomorrow and I'll get back to you with my verdict. If you have any suggestions for these slots etc please could you share them :) thanks again
And yep i'll edit this into my sig tomorrow
 
Lego

Lego

Formally LegoFigure11
is a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Shout-out Woo!
But nah seriously I love this team and the depth that you have gone to with all of those calcs and exploration of how you play against certain archetypes, to the point which I will probably steal this team and use it at regionals so I don't really have anything to add.
If you're still after a Jolly Landorus, then there's one on Doomsday94's Trade Thread which you could try and get (it's sadly not free though). And if you change your mind about Yveltal's Nature then I do have the Modest one as well now.
 
Draconid997

Draconid997

Legofigure11 said:
Shout-out Woo!
But nah seriously I love this team and the depth that you have gone to with all of those calcs and exploration of how you play against certain archetypes, to the point which I will probably steal this team and use it at regionals so I don't really have anything to add.
If you're still after a Jolly Landorus, then there's one on Doomsday94's Trade Thread which you could try and get (it's sadly not free though). And if you change your mind about Yveltal's Nature then I do have the Modest one as well now.
Click to expand...
Thanks man :] glad you like the team, and feel free to nick it for whatever i really dont mind
I'll have a look for that jolly landorus too, thanks :)
 
Draconid997

Draconid997

Just want to say a massive thanks to IronBullet for moving this RMT into the Team Showcase forum :]
It's an absolute honour to be among some really amazing players, so thank you for the opportunity to do so.
On a side note I think this is the first time that a VGC team has been showcased in the forum, so i really hope that there will be more VGC RMTs like this from the community in future, and I'm looking forward to reading and even rating them.
Thanks again, Draconid.
 
Ksh13

Ksh13

is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
Sweet team dude, also ty for the shoutout. It is a pleasure to have someone like you around the VGC forum, I find myself looking at the teambuilding frameworks thread quite often when I build teams, I must say you have done a crazy good job on it :) It's also really cool to see a VGC team in the Showcase forum, grats on that. Don't really have anything to add about the team though, it looks very solid.
 
Draconid997

Draconid997

Ksh13 said:
Sweet team dude, also ty for the shoutout. It is a pleasure to have someone like you around the VGC forum, I find myself looking at the teambuilding frameworks thread quite often when I build teams, I must say you have done a crazy good job on it :) It's also really cool to see a VGC team in the Showcase forum, grats on that. Don't really have anything to add about the team though, it looks very solid.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the kind words man :)
Hopefully we get some extra frameworks built soon too, i have a few in mind
 
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