Clearly the problem IMO is PUP. This allows Kanga to be threatening even if it's burned. If it didn't have this, it wouldn't have quite as much destructive power. But due to the fact that non-mega has scrappy, it's almost guarunteed +2. Once it's burned, though, it still retains the original unboosted power. The fact that even the bulkiest physical walls are destroyed by it should prove just how dangerous this thing is. People claim that "You can just run sablye and burn it first". This is us running a dedicated counter to a single mon. I think we know that this isn't healthy. And revenge killing Isn't even guarunteed to work, so your mega lukes and banded terraks aren't gonna put an end to the sweep. This thing is clearly centralizing a bit too hard. Many people claim that it can't run every coverage move, but it doesn't need every move under the sun to wreck house. Aegislash can't kings shield it Because of EQ, which removes any chance of that being a reliable check. As much as sablye can burn first, It still won't enjoy any attack Kanga can throw at it. It's as if, if you don't straight up bring sablye straight in, it won't really be stopping Kanga. It could also just scrappy PUP predicting the Sablye, so that kinda makes sablye less reliable. The only thing that I can think of that can stand up is cofagrigus, but that loses if kanga is carrying crunch. If steel still resisted dark this thing would be a bit more tolerable, but for now I suggest Ubers.
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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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Personally, I'd rather keep Kangaskhanite in OU. Most of the arguments I see in favor of banning it are that you need 2-3 Pokemon in order to beat it. The entire point of Mega evolving is that you're reaching a level that isn't normally obtainable. If it only took 1 ordinary Pokemon to knock out a Mega Pokemon I think it'd defeat the purpose. This is why everyone is limited to only one Mega per team, so you can't have Mega Gengar, Mega Lucario, Mega Charizard, etc. on the same team. I realize that doesn't mean that no matter how powerful a Pokemon is it should stay in OU because of this restriction, just that megas should be given a lot more leniency than other Pokemon when it comes to deciding their tiering. I just put on two already good Pokemon that would have been on my team anyway (eg. Rocky Helmet Skarmory to weaken it and Talonflame to finish it) and I do fine against Mega Kangaskhan. I think you should just expect that beating a Mega will generally cost you at least one Pokemon.
I also don't know why there is such an obsession over "counters". Yes, they're important but they're not everything. Team Viewer is an extremely useful tool. I don't leave out a Skarmory when my opponent has Magnezone and I don't leave out a Heatran when my opponent has Dugtrio.. That's just asking for trouble. Similarly, I try to avoid putting myself in a situation where I would even have to switch out if Mega Kangaskhan were to come out. Leave in Skarmory, a fast Wilo-Wisp Pokemon, or something of that nature. Rather than trying to "counter" Mega Kangaskhan I try to not use a Pokemon that would have to switch out against Mega Kangaskhan in the first place. Though in the unfortunate event that does happen, you can use bulky Rocky Helmet Pokemon or a Prankster Sableye, which are already excellent in their own rights which would probably go on my team anyway even if Mega Kangaskhan wasn't around. If you expect your opponent won't use Power-up punch you can also just send in your weakest Pokemon to be knocked out so that way you can revenge kill it (or if it switches out use the turn to set up).
The post set up statistics are impressive, but lots of Pokemon do great after you let them set up, Garchomp, Dragonite, Latios, Azumarill, Tyranitar etc.
Parental Bond is a great ability but it has its drawbacks. Double hitting means two chances for flame body, static, effect spore, poison point, rocky helmet, cute charm, etc. taking effect.
I also don't know why there is such an obsession over "counters". Yes, they're important but they're not everything. Team Viewer is an extremely useful tool. I don't leave out a Skarmory when my opponent has Magnezone and I don't leave out a Heatran when my opponent has Dugtrio.. That's just asking for trouble. Similarly, I try to avoid putting myself in a situation where I would even have to switch out if Mega Kangaskhan were to come out. Leave in Skarmory, a fast Wilo-Wisp Pokemon, or something of that nature. Rather than trying to "counter" Mega Kangaskhan I try to not use a Pokemon that would have to switch out against Mega Kangaskhan in the first place. Though in the unfortunate event that does happen, you can use bulky Rocky Helmet Pokemon or a Prankster Sableye, which are already excellent in their own rights which would probably go on my team anyway even if Mega Kangaskhan wasn't around. If you expect your opponent won't use Power-up punch you can also just send in your weakest Pokemon to be knocked out so that way you can revenge kill it (or if it switches out use the turn to set up).
The post set up statistics are impressive, but lots of Pokemon do great after you let them set up, Garchomp, Dragonite, Latios, Azumarill, Tyranitar etc.
Parental Bond is a great ability but it has its drawbacks. Double hitting means two chances for flame body, static, effect spore, poison point, rocky helmet, cute charm, etc. taking effect.
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While I'm not saying Sableye is perfect counter for Mega Kangaskhan, people really need to read the thread.I know, I saw your edit.
Also, people talking about Foul Play, ffs most of the time Sableye gets killed by anything Kangaskhan has even with burn.
There's a reason why it's generally accepted by most that Sableye is the best check for Mega Kangaskhan.
Full defense invested Sableye with leftovers is not 2hKOed by Mega Kangaskhan and especially not after burn. Will add calculation later.
I know that. The main thing is that that really centralizes the ,etagame and so MKangaskan is unhealthy for it.
I'll remove that bit in my post.
What? Did you read the thread at all? The thing is that MKang basically forces you to use a pokemon and is unhealthy for the metagame. Also, Kangaskhan can actually switch, contrary to popular belief.
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You're completely missing the point.
Care to enlighten me? What is "the point"?
No, that's not the point. The point is to make a fancy-shmancy-suped-up-item option that will make GF lots and lots of money for being cool. Competitively though, it's just another item.
Mega Evolutions are not (and should not) be guaranteed to take down 2+ enemies every battle just by being mega evolutions-- and even if they were, losing 2 Pokemon can break a team and decide the match right there. Thinking about Mega Evolutions in this way is totally faulty. You're failing to address the important point at stake: How does Mega Kang affect the metagame.
In 20 pages (in 1 day), more than enough has been said about why Mega Kang needs to be banned (not should be, needs to be), but if you want to know my opinion, you can check my signature.
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2+ enemies might be overkill, but there is a higher opportunity cost than usual to using a Mega Evolution. Doesn't that provide for the possibility of your team's mega slot being more "valuable" in a sense than the five non-mega slots available? And if not, why did they restrict it to one per battle?
LordRandomness -- There is a higher opportunity cost for the mega slot, but it is MINUTE.
Honestly the difference is so miniscule compared to Mega Kang's power, it might as well be completely ignored. And if you think otherwise, you're kidding yourself.
This is the most hilarious thing I've read since UT's inception. It's so damn hilarious, I can't help but think you got to be joking. Joking or not, If we gave out Community Contributor badges for being hilarious I'd nominate you right now. (you are joking right?)
Honestly the difference is so miniscule compared to Mega Kang's power, it might as well be completely ignored. And if you think otherwise, you're kidding yourself.
Oh my god... I died, seriously-- I almost pissed myself how hard I laughed.
This is the most hilarious thing I've read since UT's inception. It's so damn hilarious, I can't help but think you got to be joking. Joking or not, If we gave out Community Contributor badges for being hilarious I'd nominate you right now. (you are joking right?)
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The point is that we aren't implementing any random piece of philosophy that you decided is grounds enough to keep mega kanga OU. Using that same thought, we might as well unban all ubers. 1 teamslot shouldn't guaruntee 2-3 pokemon per game. That point actually nearly proves how it should be ubers. I've also noticed how most people who say OU aren't much over 1600 on PS!, but that's probably just me. I am interested to see a high level players opinion on why it shouldn't be banned. For now however, the community seems to think that Kanga is broken. Sorry if you feel like I called you out for anything negative.
Devil's advocate again. :P It's the same as Gengarite: It didn't take out the whole team, but it opened up a hole in the team for another pokemon to sweep. Although it can sweep on it's own due to it's sheer power.
Hi I'm new here. *Waves anti-M-Kangaskhan flag~* o wo
Okay, first of all... Why do people, a lot of other people, assume that M-Kangaskhan is just some independent force that is totally reckless and can't switch out. Come to think about it, I haven't really seen people use M-Kangaskhan well in over 100 matches hovering around 1700 - 19XX rankings. It probably isn't as threatening in Pre-Pokebank than Pokebank OU with Elemental Punches and Seismic Toss. Regardless, people can easy build teams around M-Kangaskhan. Put up Sticky Web, your M-Kangaskhan doesn't need to rely on Sucker Punch and have to deal with things that are faster and resist dark. Spikes and Stealth rock would probably render many checks defective too.
Okay, first of all... Why do people, a lot of other people, assume that M-Kangaskhan is just some independent force that is totally reckless and can't switch out. Come to think about it, I haven't really seen people use M-Kangaskhan well in over 100 matches hovering around 1700 - 19XX rankings. It probably isn't as threatening in Pre-Pokebank than Pokebank OU with Elemental Punches and Seismic Toss. Regardless, people can easy build teams around M-Kangaskhan. Put up Sticky Web, your M-Kangaskhan doesn't need to rely on Sucker Punch and have to deal with things that are faster and resist dark. Spikes and Stealth rock would probably render many checks defective too.
So if someone actually makes a team with Magnezone and M-Kangaskhan, then what? You're going to switch out whatever fast Will-o-Wisp Pokemon you have to whatever your opponent brings in. They are not going to send in a M-Kangaskhan to get burnt or face a Skarmory. If you play the whole game trying not to let M-Kangaskhan come in, then yeah. M-Kangaskhan isn't the only threat out there, and you'll make yourself total setup fodder =.=
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Except mega Kanga doesn't just remove one pokemon, it often manages to removes half an entire team with one sweep. Even prepared teams can struggle, and once any scarfed fighter is gone it's practically GG, even if it happens to be burned. Mega gengar was broken due to shadow tag, but mega kanga is broken due to the fact that nothing can switch into it. Any walls usually aren't up to that 100 speed tier, so kanga can just kill it with a coverage move.
Edit: M-gengar could remove more than one poke, of course.
Why? Because it's cool, and having your entire team do it would significantly dilute the coolness. That's about it.
Are Megas supposed to be better than most pokemon? Sure, but only when you remember that "most pokemon" includes Farfetch'd and Luvdisc. If they absolutely have to require another Mega or 2+ regulars to take them out, then that just makes them boring. That turns the rest of a pokemon battle into the other kids doing meaningless crap while Harry Potter chases after the only thing the audience cares about.
I'm a big fan of devil's advocation, but the thread started out with some extremely well-reasoned arguments and has gone on for 20 pages. I'm not sure what there is left to advocate about, people have been very forthright and detailed about why Mega Khan is patently terrible for the meta.
Yes, sure. As stated by others it's wrong to choose Pokemon on your team just to counter one Pokemon. If you could just dedicate one Pokemon to counter a specific Pokemon it wouldn't be to much of a problem. The problem with Khan is it can nearly 2HKO the whole OU metagame. As I stated in my post: You can't build OU teams without worrying about Khan. It restricts your options so badly in my opinion.
Further on, the other Pokemon you mentioned such as Garchomp and co. They are indeed powerful and destructive when they set up but are easier taken care of. Those Pokemon have been in the metagame forever now and no one is complaining about those. That's because there are good ways to take care of them without decidating a few Pokemon to them.
1) This is why I hate the whole concept of mega-evoultion. I would much rather have teams where all the Pokemon contributed equally rather than having one mega with five Pokemon filling in holes. Having one mega per team means you have one Pokemon that is pretty much objectively better than the rest, harder to check, harder to counter etc. This then exacerbates team match-ups (read: is unhealthy for the metagame) - if my mega loses 1v1 to yours then I am going to struggle. I am pleased that with new mechanics GameFreak have removed the weather versus weather and spinner versus spinblocker match-up problems from previous generations, but IMO they replaced it with something worse.
2) "A level that isn't normally obtainable"... sounds pretty much like a definition of Uber to me.
3) As for the "one mega per team" argument, if Gen V OU had had a rule saying "You can have one Uber on your otherwise OU team" would that have been a good idea? How could you possibly have checked all the Ubers you could have faced, when many of them could more-or-less only be checked by other Ubers and you were only allowed one Uber yourself?
4) With specific regard to Kangaskhan, he is even worse than you describe. He doesn't take one or two ordinary Pokemon to take down (which would be enough to be ban-worthy anyway), he can 6-0 teams right from the get-go. To require two or three checks (he has no counters really) unnecessarily controls teambuilding. There is skill in pulling off a sweep by probing your opponent's weaknesses and weakening your sweeper's counters (unless you used Mega Gengar to do this of course); there is no skill in destroying teams with an uncounterable and nearly uncheckable offensive threat.
5) I thought Kangaskhan was great for Gen V NU, a very balancing revenge-killer with so many wallbreakers and set-up sweepers running around. I want it back in Gen VI NU. So ban MegaKhan please :p
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Is everyone here assuming Mega Kangaskhan gets baited into NOT using EQ on a potential Rocky helmet Ferrothorn switch-in?
I call uber. It's just very strong relative to any other single pokemon. It's too damn fast (100 speed) for how bulky and hard-hitting it is. AND it could have sucker punch OR crunch? Do you feel safe switching in your "ghost type counter" if you don't know which it is running? Also, just wait for the Drain Punch to hit the fan....
I call uber. It's just very strong relative to any other single pokemon. It's too damn fast (100 speed) for how bulky and hard-hitting it is. AND it could have sucker punch OR crunch? Do you feel safe switching in your "ghost type counter" if you don't know which it is running? Also, just wait for the Drain Punch to hit the fan....
Well, I believe I've said all I could think of about ways to deal with Mega Kanga that weren't being mentioned, so I'm about done here. I wasn't suggesting that Megas should be allowed to take out 2+ Pokemon, but I figured maybe they'd be worth, I dunno, 1.2 of a Pokemon or something.
Heh, this gives me a silly idea for a metagame where one of your slots is allowed to be Uber. :p
There was a time in gen 5 that I thought exactly like you. "Why are you banning Genesect, Landorus, Tornadus-T, Excadrill, etc.?" I would ask. Isn't it better to just let the powerful giants duke it out and let equilibrium take its course? Many on this site would agree with me when I say the Ubers tier is partially fun because all the powerful stuff balances itself out.
Today I realize how dumb my thought process was when those bans were made. Each and everyone one of those bastards caused significant shifts in the metagame that dictated the direction teams were built toward.
For example, throughout gens 4 and 5 Skarm would occasionally run Shed Shell to beat its hard counter, Magnazone. However, lefties was by far the more popular item. Why? Because Magnazone had a very specific focus, and outside of its limited range it couldn't do much else. Even if 'Zone took down your Skarm you just weren't all that concerned, because he couldn't do much else after that anyways.
Flash forward to gen 6. Skarm runs a shit ton more Rocky Helmet then it ever did Shed Shell. This is because a Pokemon that isn't even consider a "counter" to the steel bird in the tradition sense can blow through Skarm like tissue paper. If a premier physical wall is scared of Kanga, everything else under Megakahn's speed tier is even more royally screwed. When Pokes are running items to stop Pokemon that aren't even consider "counters" it's probably a sign that said Poke is causing significant shifts in the meta.
The problem with this sentiment is that it works on a two-way street. If you know (and accept) you're going to lose a Pokemon to Kanga then your opponent knows that too. No matter how you look at it, losing a Pokemon in 6v6 is tempo lose, period. One less "piece" if you will, to deal with any particular one of the opponent's Pokemon. The issue, therefore, is that when a player sends out Kanga they are almost guaranteed tempo gain.
That's not healthy for any competitive game.
Here's the argument I don't understand though. Why does being called "mega Pokémon" warrant getting special treatment, any more than being called a "legendary" does? Being called and marketed as special Pokémon has none-at-all bearing on whether it's good for the metagame or not. Non-legendaries have been banned from OU many times, and likewise some legendaries have fallen to the deepest abyss of NU. It's no different with megas.
And frankly, you do realise GF outright saying, that the whole intention of Mega Pokémon is to let it be on the same level with legendaries. Obviously some have succeeded at this better than others *COUGH*, but as said before, how is the possibility severely buffed Pokémon, some of which with the most absurd abilities *COUGH* breaking the metagame with their sheer power so faraway to understand? It matters not, if this was the intention all along, when their negative effects outweigh the positive in the context of competitive battling.
Well, because you can only use one per team. There's no "we'd better send them all to Uber because otherwise people will use nothing but them and the metagame will go stale" argument, because people CAN'T. I don't see why the mega slot shouldn't potentially be a BIT stronger, although obviously anything overwhelmingly strong FOR the slot should go and too much stronger leads to overcentralizing issues and so forth.
A mega pokemon should be worth = (1 pokemon) + (1 pokemon's item slot power) + (risk invoved in mega evolution speed increasing turn)
Parental bond itself, a 1.5x multiplier, is the equivalent of being Choice Banded without actually being choiced.
Take parental bond out of the equation and we are left with Mega Kangaskhan's base stats and movepool.
Risk involved in mega evolution speed increasing turn: (this is one of Mega Gengar's and Mega Alakazam's problems) there is little to none. You could be running fake out for a free turn, or power up punch to threaten out a ghost type. Kang also has the bulk to survive a hit easily, so there is vitually no risk. Also normal Khan at 80 speed is usually fastish enough for the first turn it comes out (remember you can choose when to bring it in).
So taking that out, we simply need to evaluate Mega Khan's movepool and stats relative to the average pokemon. If you take parental bond vs choice band out of the equation, then Mega Khan has a 47 BP fighting type Swords Dance, sucker punch for priority, fake out for free damage, crunch, EQ, drain punch, elemental punches incoming... Mega khan's movepool and stats are just much better than the usual OU pokemon =/
That's why I call uber.
Why restrict it to one per battle then? I'm not saying anyone knows for certain what Gamefreak's reasoning behind this is, but if it was just about having as many fancy suped up Pokemon, why not just have six megas? The cost of having Mega Kangaskhan means you have to forgo every other mega. Overall, I like the idea of megas. Having one powerful Pokemon that's clearly more powerful than the other five. I wasn't really saying that Kangaskhan is guaranteed to take out two Pokemon. It frequently does.. but it's skill dependent. Sometimes it doesn't even take out one depending upon how my opponent uses it. Just that I generally have to use two Pokemon working together to beat it. eg. One to Wilo-Wisp and one to finish it off, or one to sacrifice with rocky helmet, then another to revenge kill it. That's generally along the lines of what happens.
I'm over 1900 atm. Is it that important though? The reason I was saying Mega Kangaskhan is different from those other ubers is because it requires a mega slot.
This embodies what Mega Kanga does. He's just too much power for one pokemon.
Which is a trivial choice, because M-Khan eclipses the whole lot of the rest of them.
It... really isn't. At all. All it requires is the most basic of all prediction, so basic that a small child can learn it. Mega on the first turn, Crunch if you see a ghost, PuP everywhere else. Or if you're running Fire Punch, use that instead of Crunch (it annihilates most ghosts anyway)
Which is exactly what we were talking about that's unhealthy. Dedicating up to half of a team just to try to lose slower is not indicative of a healthy metagame.
That still doesn't warrant it being treated differently for tiering purposes. It may as well be "you can use a legendary, but only one per team also you can't use items on them". Granted, not all megas are broken, but not all legendaries are either. If something's broken, it's broken.
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