Implemented Aerodactyl in GSC UU

Status
Not open for further replies.

MrSoup

my gf broke up with me again
is a Tiering Contributor
RBTT Champion
Aerodactyl should be freed from GSC UUBL to provide a healthier, more diverse, and overall more positive GSC UU metagame. GSC UU is among the less active old gen low tiers and has been in steady decline in recent years. While it has been active in tiering decisions with its more recent modifications to Baton Pass, this has done little to fix the tier’s core issues, as seen by the large outcry as of late that suggest many are unhappy with the state it’s currently in.

There are several reasons for this dissatisfaction. One of the biggest is teambuilding. UU lacks significant blanket checks to the tier’s most threatening Pokemon, forcing similar structures in the builder. Teams must have a Piloswine, Nidoqueen, Mr. Mime, Scyther, and Granbull check, yet few of their checks overlap. Haunter, for example, covers some Granbull sets but does little for the rest. The same goes for Gyarados, which "counters" Piloswine and can help with Scyther, but often has no recovery (Rest sets are rare) and can crumble to a Thunder from the other premier threats like Nidoqueen or Mr. Mime. This, along with having to fit your own offense on your team, leads to building the same few styles of balance like Hypno/Water/Ground/Haunter/Qwil or Lanturn/Pilo/Qwil/Blastoise with little variance. As a result, the tier has assumed the identity of being extremely slow paced, dominated by RestTalk chance, 100+ turn battles, and hax fishing (Gyarados is likely to be frozen if it switches into Pilo's Ice Beam multiple times for example). Simply put, many players, including the tier's most devoted members, no longer enjoy it due to these issues, nor do many people enjoy watching it, and it's clear something has to be done before the player base continues to dwindle.

With the recent ban of AgilityPass, it’s clear that GSC UU is willing to make changes to the tier in order to make a more healthy metagame. This change has been most welcome, and there are many other changes that could be made if we are willing to go there. One such change is re-examining UUBLs. GSC has a significant number of UUBL Pokemon as a result of old Smogon and pre-Smogon tiering history. The reasons as to why many of these Pokemon were moved to UUBL is unknown and lost to history, and the few that are known were done so long ago that the meta they existed in hardly reflects what we have today. While many would be extremely strong and likely broken in the current UU metagame, there are also some that would have little influence on the tier. Several of these Pokemon could provide answers to near-uncheckable threats or new avenues for offense, helping to resolve the aforementioned problems. GSC UU shifting to more standard tiering practice regarding BLs has the potential to greatly improve the tier. However, this PR thread isn’t dedicated to shaking GSC UU up just for the sake of change and grabbing the attention of new and retired players alike (although it is an added benefit), but rather to actually fix the tier’s glaring current issues. As such, I’m advocating not for the drop of inoffensive UUBL Pokemon to UU, but targeted ones that are likely to improve metagame health. This is not to say that I’m against looking into reconsidering GSC UUBL as a whole, but this is a PR thread for another time, would require much more bureaucracy, and doesn’t necessarily get to the core issue of the tier with the urgency it deserves.

The most discussed and generally supported UUBL Pokemon to drop for these purposes is Aerodactyl. Two of the tier's most preeminent offensive threats in Scyther, and to a lesser extent Granbull, have a rather restricting force in the builder, and there have actually been several discussions for grounds of the former's banning from the tier (mostly on discord but is illustrated well by this video). But Scyther and Granbull also provide the tier with the ability to make significant progress quickly during battles, and it's possible that banning one of these could actually further slow down the already slow-paced metagame. While there are clearly some that feel Scyther should be looked at, there are many more who do not feel it to be ban-worthy. As such, looking to ban offensive powerhouses rather than unban another option is very unlikely to gain much traction and could, in fact, have the opposite effect of what we are intending to achieve with creating a more positive metagame.

Therefore, in an effort to improve the tier, discussion on how to appropriately address these Pokemon in the builder has been raging, and instead of a Scyther ban, I and many others propose Aerodactyl as a dropped Pokemon, for several reasons. Aerodactyl is a great check for Scyther and to a lesser extent Granbull with its typing, yet it does not make these Pokemon irrelevant. Instead, it adds an extra layer of precaution in the builder if you want to use these offensive Pokemon, adding a much-needed layer of risk and reward. It may even encourage uncharted territory like Steel Wing Scyther and HP Rock Dodrio, which would even further diversify offense and the risks of running these Pokemon to choose their checks instead of having a free pass to always run HP Ground, making users think twice. These traits are a massive relief for building, and would likely free more archetypes. Most importantly, however, Aerodactyl possesses these abilities without being overbearing, sporting extremely common weaknesses, low defensive stats, and a lack of strong STAB options to bolster its attacks. It would likely be a weak offensive presence, and is a major victim of four moveslot syndrome, wanting to run the likes of RestTalk, Curse, HP Rock, EQ, Whirlwind, Fire Blast, Reflect, and even Pursuit to cover all of its bases.

Currently, this description of Aerodactyl in UU is all theory, with some practice of its application in test games. However, we’ve been granted an amazing opportunity to improve this tier in the form of the upcoming inaugural GSC Grand Slam, which, through community outcry and voting, has chosen to suspect Aerodactyl for the tournament in order to see how it may help GSC UU. While this tournament currently has no official tie to how GSC UU will be tiered or played in the future, it is a great chance to test how the meta may shape with an Aerodactyl drop and to test the validity of tiering action. It is understandable that changes like these to old gen metagames needs veritable testing and rigorous scrutiny, but this is a launching point that could be followed up in successive team, individual circuit, or suspect tournaments. Given that GSC UU is still played in high-stakes environments such as UUPL, UUSD, and GSCPL, it deserves the time and attention it requires to make it a more enjoyable experience.

It seems clear by recent voting in the GSC Grand Slam discussion thread that people are willing to give it a shot and see how it goes. There is at least majority support in this thread consisting of those active in the meta that testing Aerodactyl is worth our wild. Adding Aerodactyl is not likely to alter the fabric of the tier, but rather to reduce centralization while remaining a mid-tier Pokemon.

I suppose there is a small possibility that, after GSC Grand Slam, Aerodactyl actually surprises all of us and becomes a major powerhouse we were not expecting. After all, we are mainly theorycrafting here. This is very unlikely though, and if it shows even a modicum of improvement to the tier overall, then I think tiering action of some sort is necessary to address its potential unban. It's also possible that, if Aerodactyl is unbanned, it could pave the way for more changes to be made in the tier if necessary. That is, however, a subject that should be reserved for later, after we see what a GSC UU metagame with Aerodactyl looks like. It's quite possible no other changes are needed, and it's also possible that more changes are warranted in the form of unbanning other UUBLs or banning something like Baton Pass. Depending on community opinion, there are several routes forward for GSC UU, but at the moment it is of my opinion that we take this opportunity to focus on Aerodactyl first; it deserves a shot in the UU metagame and we as players deserve a shot to see it here if it can help benefit the tier.

I propose a list of qualified voters is gathered after GSC Grand Slam to determine the unbanning of Aerodactyl. The formalities of this are of course up to discussion and the discretion of tiering leaders, but I hope this moves forward in order to support the dedicated yet languishing GSC UU community.
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnus
UU Leader
Just to put in some notes about Aerodactyl:

Aero is a good Scyther check, that is objectively true. What's also true is that Aero is among the best Scyther partners, because a +2 Aerodactyl that you can't outspeed and can't handle defensively (it's a LOT stronger than +2 Scyther because its moves have actual base power). Teams like Hypno / Gyara / Haunter / Qwil / Lanturn / Pilo, for example, are completely destroyed by +2 Aero. Every Pokemon on that squad is 2HKOd at worst bar Pilo (which isn't safe with a Spike up or with any chip damage whatsoever really), most are OHKOd. This isn't a cherry picked scenario either; the full list of Pokemon that comfortably avoid a 2HKO from +2 Aero is: Blastoise, Slowbro, Slowking, Quagsire, Piloswine, Feraligatr. Of these, everything except Slowbro has a shot to be 2HKOd with Spikes up. That's just with HP Rock and EQ, btw; Double-Edge has minimal recoil in GSC and also sends a number of these calcs over the edge.

The TL;DR here is that Scyther (and Baton Pass) really don't need the massive buff that Aero provides. If Aero is to be introduced, I do think Scyther will end up being even more ridiculous than it is now.

Anyway, less specifically about Aero and more as a TL/player, here's more of a ramble about GSC UU's development and why I'm not entirely convinced that the tier is solved or stagnant. In my time as both a spectator and player of GSC UU, the tier has become essentially unrecognisable from what it was when I began. The ancient (read: literally 2020) wisdom that Nidoqueen was the uncontested best Pokemon in the tier has all but entirely dissolved at this point, and the queen who was once alone on her throne struggles to even consistently find her way into the top 5 these days. Similarly, Piloswine - a once niche Pokemon that was barely ever used over Nidoqueen, hardly even considered top 20 and frequently rated below Pokemon that are considered almost laughable today like Bellossom, Chansey and Kabutops - comfortably sits in the top 5 in usage in essentially every tournament. Pinsir, a Pokemon that hardly existed a few years back, now sees non-insignificant usage as people have started to realise how great it is alongside Scyther and how strong it is in general as a wallbreaker. while Dodrio, a former all-star wallbreaker, is borderline nonexistent these days. Did you know that Slowbro was considered better than Granbull as far back as only three years ago?

What I'm trying to get at here is that these metagames are adapting even if it doesn't feel like it. The recent feeling that there are only a few viable styles is exactly that, recent. It isn't an indicator of the tier being solved or impossible to innovate in; it's an adaptation to what the tier was, and the tier can adapt once again to suit its current situation.

It's an oldgen lower tier. A really old one, in fact. There are only going to be so many teams and team styles you can run because there really aren't all that many Pokemon available, the moves are weak, the movepools are small, abilities don't exist, Leftovers is essentially the only item, stuff like that. It's not a sign that the tier is in a bad spot or that it's impossible to build or create something new, it's just kinda the way these tiers are. It's something you have to accept going into them; if you wanna play ADV UU you're going to have to get used to putting Kangaskhan on every team you build alongside multiple ways to beat it, and that leads to similar structures all the time, but that doesn't make the tier any less enjoyable. If you wanna play a super active tier where you can mess around with tons of different techs, GSC as a generation may just not be your cup of tea in general.

---

I'm not necessarily opposed to testing Aerodactyl. I find it difficult to convince myself that it'd be broken (unless BP is in the equation), and I think it does have some merits, but I do believe we should be much more careful when tiering old generations unless we are willing to fully work through our history here. ADV UU has been running tournaments and tests for plenty of Pokemon over the past couple of years thanks to great efforts from the community, and we've gotten to see the likes of Arcanine, Kadabra, Lapras, Armaldo and Swellow in action, even leading to the freeing of Arcanine. And that's great! Lots of people like the tier more now, I'm really happy about that. But selectively dropping things isn't the way to go about it unless we're going to systematically work through everything, and I do believe there would be a number of active GSC UU players that would go against this; I'm not going to speak for anyone else, they can do that themselves, but outcry in a relatively buried thread in the GSC section isn't super indicative of the full playerbase, especially those who play it in tournaments - the overlap there is surprisingly minimal.

Regardless of anything, I'm far more interested in seeing how the GSC Grand Slam tournaments with Aero legal go. Those are a lot more valuable than theorymonning IMO. If it proves itself to be a positive addition, setting up a survey/vote seems like a fine call, but let's not rush it. These tiers are very slow-moving and need to be treated with care if action in them is going to be taken at all.
 

Estarossa

moo?
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Battle Simulator Moderator
C&C Leader
My response to this will go down primarily the angle of why i think testing aerodactyl is a major mistake here, regardless of how i feel about aerodactyl itself I just fundamentally disagree with the concept of even testing it and think it goes against the policies set upon removing the tier lock too.

The first thing that I think is clear here and the real take away message is that, we should be trying to preserve this tiers identity as much as possible and not introducing new elements into the tier if possible. Although the tier lock was removed this was intended for exceptional circumstances and we should still be aiming to make the least destructive changes possible.

This means that we should absolutely be looking at bans before unbans in this tier, as they will be far less destructive to the overall metagame both in terms of identity and in terms of adaptation, not requiring years of play just to see the full unforseen effects like an unban could have. I also take issue to the use of the Agility Pass ban as justification for going into unbans here, as the person who initially pushed for the agility pass ban I want to make it clear it was intended as a one off cleaning house ban that would have zero effect on how the tier plays beyond just removing an irritating element, and should not be viewed as precedent to go wild like this

Multiple Pokemon have been repeatedly spouted as being things people want to explore the bans of in this tier, so why are we exploring unbans first? This thread in particular feels awkwardly timed because of this as Shuckle has extremely high support amongst the high level tour players in GSC UU for a ban, and has very little opposition. Given the plans to discuss this post UUPL this thread has essentially jettisoned this too.

This would be a particularly effective cure to one of the most major complaints amongst the high level community in this tier that Stall is an overwhelmingly strong playstyle that is very difficult to effectively handle. Stall was always decently strong in this tier but Shuckle essentially amplifies it to an extreme amount, adding a lot more counterplay to things like Nidoqueen and Piloswine if one thing like Blastoise happens to get haxed through, while shutting down all sorts of otherwise valid stallbreakers like SD Sleep Powder Victreebel, Curse Thunder Granbull, SD Body Slam Pinsir + SD Scyther etc.

Make no mistake that stall is insanely ridiculously strong too, a lot of the standard touted counterplay has been pretty strongly solved by stall too considering the advent of RestTalk Buzz for Gyara + Spikes, the adaptations that stall has made to make spikes staying up even harder with pursuit buzz + hp elec stoise, and the general fact that progress is so hard to actually make stick into the matchups to the point that even if you happened to load a playable matchup (which a lot of teams quite frankly don't really have especially when they rely on things like scyther for their offense a bit) there is much less pressure on the stall player to get turns right compared to the other player who cant get a single turn wrong without undoing about 50 turns of progress.

The most major aspect here is that its a totally non-disruptive ban too that will help lighten the load in teambuilding - you now no longer need to concern yourself quite so ridiculously over how much stall counterplay you are packing whenever you face someone who has a habit of sometimes loading it, but also more options for those cool wallbreakers pop up that can acftually do work too - but stall still remains viable through Omastar stall structures that have to be more cognizant of the not so easy matchups while shuckle isn't viable anywhere else unlike a lot of the other stall elements.

To target the other complaints that are brought up by the more casual player community that building isn't particular diverse in this tier and that its feeling solved, and that it can often feel not offensive enough, Lily makes strong points about this that the tier has developed such an insane amount over the last few years, things like Rest Talk Dodrio, Piloswine, Gyarados + Spikes, Kadabra, Light Screen Hypno + Nidoqueen etc are all newer things that have changed considerably and so much usage has changed over the last few years, and the tier is still very much developing.

Offense is quite actually possible to build in this tier too, I have such a wide variety of teams in my teambuilder from the last few years of tours that I find it questionable when people claim they are struggling to make diverse teams, even with my painfully low scyther usage I find myself always being able to come up with a variety of teams with lots of forms of offensive pressure that don't let teams go beyond like 50-60 games traditionally while still following the typical bulky formats that gsc excels in, and to an extent it just feels like people need to stop geting so lazy in the builder and actually just defaulting to their basic mime gyaras and their pilo teams etc.

Just over the past year or so we've seen quite a bit of developments too just to prove that things are still changing: Gligar has become the go to standard 6th for lanturn pilo teams with its thief screech sets offering a fantastic brand of offense and nidoqueen checking while creating deadly ground spam combos. Ampharos has seen a resurgance to adapt to the fact that Nidoqueen is now much more uncommon and Piloswine is the premier ground. Reflect Hypno has become a popular choice as a less abusable option that opens less doors for things like Granbull, its traditionally been viewed as a purely defensive option but recent explorations this UUPL etc have showcased that it can be quite a potent offensive option with electrics like electabuzz too to allow for more offense from your teams still. Can't ofc forget that SD 3a scyther popped up a lot as a very scary offensive threat capable of blasting through gyara and curse talk bull too at the cost of team support and defensive value.

The key take away message here is, make a shuckle ban first as its pretty heavily agreed on by the high level playerbase, a bunch of whom are actually against any unbans currently anyway. If scyther is still viewed as a problem like a few people believe, then explore that.
 
I fully support MrSoup 's post, and I think that the subsequent posts are fair but kind of have some sweeping claims that I'm not so sure are true. Specifically, I do think that there is a high level of discontent with the current GSC UU metagame, and I have seen a lot of mainers end up quitting the tier in recent years because of this dissatisfaction. I'm not going to name names but most people who follow GSC UU know who they are. I've been the playing the tier consistently for the past year or so and, even though I enjoy it, I can understand where some of the discontent is as Soup alludes to in his post and the other linked posts.

On to some of the specific claims, I'm not sure why it was said there is "more" support to ban things, particularly Shuckle, when the GSC Grand Slam votes clearly favored unbanning Aerodactyl over banning Shuckle (I think there were only 2/3 votes to ban Shuckle vs like 6 or 7 to unban Aerodactyl?). Also, I'm not sure why both of these things are mutually exclusive - the OP here does not even mention a Shuckle ban, so addressing an Aerodactyl unban seems fine, and it's already going to be "tested" in GSC Grand Slam anyways while Shuckle is not. If there is truly so much support to ban Shuckle as opposed to unbanning Aerodactyl, then so be it, but those individuals can post here to address that imo. That's what these threads are for, after all.

I think the concerns brought up by Lily about a BP into Aero are valid, but I don't think it's as dramatic as suggested. A +2 Aero is probably still fine to handle with the likes of Slowbro, Blastoise, etc. But, as many people have said, this is all theory crafting. Since GSC Grand Slam is actually dropping Aero to test in UU, that tour will surely be much more indicative on the direction to take this, and I agree 100% with the OP that if an Aero meta seems fine, we should absolutely look into an official vote on it sometime soon after. No need to rush of course, we can see how GSC Grand Slam plays out.
 

Sabelette

from the river to the sea
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Just to put in some notes about Aerodactyl:

Aero is a good Scyther check, that is objectively true. What's also true is that Aero is among the best Scyther partners, because a +2 Aerodactyl that you can't outspeed and can't handle defensively (it's a LOT stronger than +2 Scyther because its moves have actual base power). Teams like Hypno / Gyara / Haunter / Qwil / Lanturn / Pilo, for example, are completely destroyed by +2 Aero. Every Pokemon on that squad is 2HKOd at worst bar Pilo (which isn't safe with a Spike up or with any chip damage whatsoever really), most are OHKOd. This isn't a cherry picked scenario either; the full list of Pokemon that comfortably avoid a 2HKO from +2 Aero is: Blastoise, Slowbro, Slowking, Quagsire, Piloswine, Feraligatr. Of these, everything except Slowbro has a shot to be 2HKOd with Spikes up. That's just with HP Rock and EQ, btw; Double-Edge has minimal recoil in GSC and also sends a number of these calcs over the edge.

The TL;DR here is that Scyther (and Baton Pass) really don't need the massive buff that Aero provides. If Aero is to be introduced, I do think Scyther will end up being even more ridiculous than it is now.
Baton Pass should have been banned or limited to dry pass anyway, terrible move that shouldn’t exist, so I don’t think that has much bearing on Aero’s effectiveness - it’s just that BP has always been and always will be a broken ass move

Anyway, less specifically about Aero and more as a TL/player, here's more of a ramble about GSC UU's development and why I'm not entirely convinced that the tier is solved or stagnant. In my time as both a spectator and player of GSC UU, the tier has become essentially unrecognisable from what it was when I began. The ancient (read: literally 2020) wisdom that Nidoqueen was the uncontested best Pokemon in the tier has all but entirely dissolved at this point, and the queen who was once alone on her throne struggles to even consistently find her way into the top 5 these days. Similarly, Piloswine - a once niche Pokemon that was barely ever used over Nidoqueen, hardly even considered top 20 and frequently rated below Pokemon that are considered almost laughable today like Bellossom, Chansey and Kabutops - comfortably sits in the top 5 in usage in essentially every tournament. Pinsir, a Pokemon that hardly existed a few years back, now sees non-insignificant usage as people have started to realise how great it is alongside Scyther and how strong it is in general as a wallbreaker. while Dodrio, a former all-star wallbreaker, is borderline nonexistent these days. Did you know that Slowbro was considered better than Granbull as far back as only three years ago?

What I'm trying to get at here is that these metagames are adapting even if it doesn't feel like it. The recent feeling that there are only a few viable styles is exactly that, recent. It isn't an indicator of the tier being solved or impossible to innovate in; it's an adaptation to what the tier was, and the tier can adapt once again to suit its current situation.
Agree with all of this but to me the question is as simple as “is it broken or not?” Anything not broken should be legal but instead we have broken Baton Pass legal and non broken mons like Meganium and Aero sitting banned

It's an oldgen lower tier. A really old one, in fact. There are only going to be so many teams and team styles you can run because there really aren't all that many Pokemon available, the moves are weak, the movepools are small, abilities don't exist, Leftovers is essentially the only item, stuff like that. It's not a sign that the tier is in a bad spot or that it's impossible to build or create something new, it's just kinda the way these tiers are. It's something you have to accept going into them; if you wanna play ADV UU you're going to have to get used to putting Kangaskhan on every team you build alongside multiple ways to beat it, and that leads to similar structures all the time, but that doesn't make the tier any less enjoyable. If you wanna play a super active tier where you can mess around with tons of different techs, GSC as a generation may just not be your cup of tea in general.
Most of the people heavily invested in this conversation are GSC mains and enjoy GSC a lot, and I don’t think the ADV UU comparison is quite fair to this situation given that “you must build around this one mon” is different than “here are like a half dozen game ending threats that all need their own checks also enjoy getting Baton Passed to death if you don’t cover that”


I'm not necessarily opposed to testing Aerodactyl. I find it difficult to convince myself that it'd be broken (unless BP is in the equation), and I think it does have some merits, but I do believe we should be much more careful when tiering old generations unless we are willing to fully work through our history here. ADV UU has been running tournaments and tests for plenty of Pokemon over the past couple of years thanks to great efforts from the community, and we've gotten to see the likes of Arcanine, Kadabra, Lapras, Armaldo and Swellow in action, even leading to the freeing of Arcanine. And that's great! Lots of people like the tier more now, I'm really happy about that. But selectively dropping things isn't the way to go about it unless we're going to systematically work through everything,
yes good we should absolutely do this, test everything and give them a fair shot, starting with the ones that are the most obviously balanced, and we might even find some of the ones that would break the tier in half right now would be fine

My response to this will go down primarily the angle of why i think testing aerodactyl is a major mistake here, regardless of how i feel about aerodactyl itself I just fundamentally disagree with the concept of even testing it and think it goes against the policies set upon removing the tier lock too.

The first thing that I think is clear here and the real take away message is that, we should be trying to preserve this tiers identity as much as possible and not introducing new elements into the tier if possible. Although the tier lock was removed this was intended for exceptional circumstances and we should still be aiming to make the least destructive changes possible.
I have genuinely almost never seen anyone argue that obstinate tier locks and “preserving the tier’s identity” are good. Like, is this a museum exhibit or a tier you want people to play and make balanced Who are you preserving the tier for when all the people playing it have so many complaints? Will there even be enough GSC mains to fill out a teamtour for this by 2024?

This means that we should absolutely be looking at bans before unbans in this tier, as they will be far less destructive to the overall metagame both in terms of identity and in terms of adaptation, not requiring years of play just to see the full unforseen effects like an unban could have. I also take issue to the use of the Agility Pass ban as justification for going into unbans here, as the person who initially pushed for the agility pass ban I want to make it clear it was intended as a one off cleaning house ban that would have zero effect on how the tier plays beyond just removing an irritating element, and should not be viewed as precedent to go wild like this
Agilipass ban didn’t go far enough and regardless of precedent anything not broken shouldn’t be banned. There’s an irony here in keeping a fossil banned to preserve a fossilized version of a tier that literally everyone wants to change

Multiple Pokemon have been repeatedly spouted as being things people want to explore the bans of in this tier, so why are we exploring unbans first? This thread in particular feels awkwardly timed because of this as Shuckle has extremely high support amongst the high level tour players in GSC UU for a ban, and has very little opposition. Given the plans to discuss this post UUPL this thread has essentially jettisoned this too.
People pitch bans because you keep saying you’ll never let anything be unbanned so they go for the only other option they have. If you weren’t so vehemently against it I’m sure more people would mention unbans as an option.

This would be a particularly effective cure to one of the most major complaints amongst the high level community in this tier that Stall is an overwhelmingly strong playstyle that is very difficult to effectively handle. Stall was always decently strong in this tier but Shuckle essentially amplifies it to an extreme amount, adding a lot more counterplay to things like Nidoqueen and Piloswine if one thing like Blastoise happens to get haxed through, while shutting down all sorts of otherwise valid stallbreakers like SD Sleep Powder Victreebel, Curse Thunder Granbull, SD Body Slam Pinsir + SD Scyther etc.

Make no mistake that stall is insanely ridiculously strong too, a lot of the standard touted counterplay has been pretty strongly solved by stall too considering the advent of RestTalk Buzz for Gyara + Spikes, the adaptations that stall has made to make spikes staying up even harder with pursuit buzz + hp elec stoise, and the general fact that progress is so hard to actually make stick into the matchups to the point that even if you happened to load a playable matchup (which a lot of teams quite frankly don't really have especially when they rely on things like scyther for their offense a bit) there is much less pressure on the stall player to get turns right compared to the other player who cant get a single turn wrong without undoing about 50 turns of progress.

The most major aspect here is that its a totally non-disruptive ban too that will help lighten the load in teambuilding - you now no longer need to concern yourself quite so ridiculously over how much stall counterplay you are packing whenever you face someone who has a habit of sometimes loading it, but also more options for those cool wallbreakers pop up that can acftually do work too - but stall still remains viable through Omastar stall structures that have to be more cognizant of the not so easy matchups while shuckle isn't viable anywhere else unlike a lot of the other stall elements.
I have seen plenty of complaints that have absolutely nothing to do with Shuckle, and about games where Shuckle was nowhere to be seen

To target the other complaints that are brought up by the more casual player community
this is kind of a rude comment to make when all the people discussing this bar me are pretty firmly GSC Mainers who have extensively tested aero in private and have tour results

The key take away message here is, make a shuckle ban first as its pretty heavily agreed on by the high level playerbase, a bunch of whom are actually against any unbans currently anyway. If scyther is still viewed as a problem like a few people believe, then explore that.
If the “high level” playerbase is so against unbans and so in favor of a shuckle ban why did Aero handily win the vote for the grand slam? Are you just so outnumbered by casuals who somehow paradoxically care about the tier enough to debate and test and vote on this? Only like 20 people even bothered to vote so either your top players simply do not care enough about the tier or the tier’s pretty dead without these newer players

this is a constant issue with having this discussion tbh, anyone who dares say “unbans are good” gets called a casual by insinuation and then when the players you regard as good say “I support testing some mons” like 378, it’s radio silence.

in short, abolish whatever relic of a policy is leading to tiers stagnating even when motivated people come in and try to actually get shit moving in the right direction. Nobody is saying just flat unban everything and go wild, but the vast, vast majority of people who still give a shit about this tier want to see things get extensive testing and get unbanned if they’re not broken, not preserve some mythical meta to ogle at as watch die. Those people won’t give a shit about this tier soon either if the only action to come of this is the tier leader ignoring the many, many calls to test stuff and just banning Shuckle while saying “well the actual good players agree with me.” Where were the votes then?
 

corvere

and beneath the mist, i saw my true reflection
is a Top Contributor
mediocre stab options (hp rock/flying, and thats it.. no, ancient power is not good) with a mediocre atk stat.. how is aero hitting hard even at +2, again?
also one thing that everyone is overlooking: with aero in the tier, how is scyther EVER going to use sd passing effectively again? it'll get constantly forced out again and again and again in fear of hp rock. only way scyther ever baton passes a SD with aero in the tier would be with reflect support from the likes of hypno. and even then, it would just get whirlwind'd out after it passes shit, or it would be at half-or-so-health affecting its usefulness in the game. so, again, how is scyther EVER passing something to aero?
this argument is very flawed to me as scyther passing now has its very first REAL counter, a pokemon that is not relegated to ONLY stall as crobat is.
 
Last edited:

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnus
UU Leader
mediocre stab options (hp rock/flying, and thats it.. no, ancient power is not good) with a mediocre atk stat.. how is aero hitting hard even at +2, again?
i mean i literally listed all 6 of the viable pokemon that can avoid a 2hko, but if you really want me to do the calcs for you:

+2 Aerodactyl Hidden Power Rock vs. Hypno: 194-229 (52 - 61.3%) -- 97.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. Qwilfish: 352-414 (105.7 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 Aerodactyl Hidden Power Rock vs. Granbull: 186-219 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 46.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. Omastar: 251-296 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. Blastoise: 177-209 (49 - 57.8%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. Piloswine: 205-241 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 86.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

etc. you can also look at the calcs that show the damage they do back - it really isn't a lot. oma and stoise hit it decently hard, hypno qwill bull pilo are pathetic.

also one thing that everyone is overlooking: with aero in the tier, how is scyther EVER going to use sd passing effectively again? it'll get constantly forced out again and again and again in fear of hp rock. only way scyther ever baton passes a SD with aero in the tier would be with reflect support from the likes of hypno. and even then, it would just get whirlwind'd out after it passes shit, or it would be at half-or-so-health affecting its usefulness in the game. so, again, how is scyther EVER passing something to aero?
So to be clear. We have a Pokemon that most people are claiming will be middling. (I've been told it's roughly a B+ mon based on those who have tested it). But it's also ensuring that Scyther will never Baton Pass again. So, this middling, B+ Pokemon is on 100% of teams for the purpose of making sure Scyther can't get a Baton Pass off?

Does this really scream that Aerodactyl is the solution?
 

BeeOrSomething

Daylight Savings Time sucks
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
+2 Aerodactyl Hidden Power Rock vs. Hypno: 194-229 (52 - 61.3%) -- 97.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. Qwilfish: 352-414 (105.7 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 Aerodactyl Hidden Power Rock vs. Granbull: 186-219 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 46.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. Omastar: 251-296 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. Blastoise: 177-209 (49 - 57.8%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. Piloswine: 205-241 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 86.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

etc. you can also look at the calcs that show the damage they do back - it really isn't a lot. oma and stoise hit it decently hard, hypno qwill bull pilo are pathetic.
Sure, it can do solid damage, but the main things stopping it are going to be the waters who can smack the hell out of it. Furthermore, dodrio is a more threatening sd recipient in many regards. Dodrio is really only answered by electabuzz, electrode, and omastar, while aero is at the very least somewhat answered by most waters and piloswine which are common, good pokemon that also happen to be frequently used together. Dodrio is generally much, much stronger thanks to its incredibly powerful double edge. However, people haven't really had that much of an issue with dodrio itself but moreso baton pass being broken. The main point of this part of corvere's post was to illustrate that aero is very middling offensively and requires boosts to hurt, of which there tend to be better options to pass to/boost with once u get the opportunity.

So to be clear. We have a Pokemon that most people are claiming will be middling. (I've been told it's roughly a B+ mon based on those who have tested it). But it's also ensuring that Scyther will never Baton Pass again. So, this middling, B+ Pokemon is on 100% of teams for the purpose of making sure Scyther can't get a Baton Pass off?

Does this really scream that Aerodactyl is the solution?
1. Sure, it's not ironclad, but it will get used and it will work. In the beginning, thanks to new toy syndrome, I imagine it will get a lot of usage and will stop scyther and bull and to a lesser extent, pinsir, which is the point. Then, once the novelty wears off, it will decline in usage, however people will still gravitate towards it due to how valuable being able to answer them well is, and it will continue doing its job.

2. Referencing the OP: Of course, I am of the opinion that aero would be good for the metagame. However, it is first and foremostly being chosen to be freed because it is not overpowered, uncompetitive, or unhealthy, and thus by tiering policy should probably be freed. I don't think it should necessarily matter that it isn't the perfect check to this broken mon that it has a very good mu into if it should be allowed in the tier anyways.

3. The reason people prefer an aero unban to a scyther ban, at least from my point of view, is that scyther, granbull, and pinsir are valuable forms of offense in such an otherwise generally regarded to be very slow tier, and aerodactyl helps to keep them from being too good while preserving those valuable traits for the health and enjoyability of the metagame. Aero can still be bypassed if you're worried about it making the tier even more defensive than it already is too. Scyther can use steel wing, granbull can use thunder (or the occasional hp rock), and pinsir can use rock throw. Meanwhile, scyther ban not only takes away a primary source of offense, but it also leaves granbull completely unchanged and still very powerful. While scyther ban would be good for the metagame too, I believe aero has more support because it leaves what good scyther provides in the tier while also piquing interest in people to play the tier and helping to answer granbull and pinsir.



Last two things to address.

Primarily, the focus of the thread is to promote a suspect. What comes along with a suspect is of course, not only the option to unban, but the option to reban. I already discussed shortly in uu cord abt this (along with sabelette and partially to you specifically too) so I won't dwell on it too long, but there's always the option to vote "keep banned" at the end of the day if you decide you do not like it or think it is too good. Very important point here!

Secondly, for your earlier bit abt theorymonning - you yourself are mostly theorymonning with this, and as sabel referred to earlier, there have been a lot of gsc uu + aero test games done between some very enthusiastic people, and it proved to in fact be very handleable and a positive addition. Albeit, since aero was used in most games in order to see what it can do, sd pass was largely opted to not be used or failed when it was used.

In conclusion, while aero doesn't solve every issue, it's a step in the right direction and I believe that it should at minimum be granted the courtesy of a suspect test. I and other people who support aero are well aware that there may be unforeseen consequences to aero, but we are currently of the opinion that it will bring a net positive influence to UU. We of course will have to be vigilant of its performance in GSC Slam, and act accordingly once we have enough evidence to make a decision one way or the other. What matters most to us is that this doesn't get swept under the rug and dismissed and that we keep discussion on aero open.
 
Last edited:

Estarossa

moo?
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Battle Simulator Moderator
C&C Leader
mediocre stab options (hp rock/flying, and thats it.. no, ancient power is not good) with a mediocre atk stat.. how is aero hitting hard even at +2, again?
also one thing that everyone is overlooking: with aero in the tier, how is scyther EVER going to use sd passing effectively again? it'll get constantly forced out again and again and again in fear of hp rock. only way scyther ever baton passes a SD with aero in the tier would be with reflect support from the likes of hypno. and even then, it would just get whirlwind'd out after it passes shit, or it would be at half-or-so-health affecting its usefulness in the game. so, again, how is scyther EVER passing something to aero?
this argument is very flawed to me as scyther passing now has its very first REAL counter, a pokemon that is not relegated to ONLY stall as crobat is.
Scyther getting through Aerodactyl is a lot less out of the realm of possibility than you are acting it is compared to it getting through say Crobat. Its important to note that Aero ends up becoming a pseudo granbull check a lot of the time too so it being forced into Rest's is actually pretty likely longer term. The real issue at that point is that Aero doesn't really wanna run Sleep Talk because it desperately needs things like Roar / Curse / Haze to actually beat Granbull and wants its coverage too to actually becoming a viable offensive threat (HP Rock / Roar / Rest / Sleep Talk is gonna be sending stuff back into the stall age etc and not very good on a lot of stuff outside of stall à la bat), so past a certain point Scyther suddenly very much has the opportunity to either pass a BP straight through or to just nuke it out with Steel Wing. Even if you are running Sleep Talk + Earthquake + HP Rock its still a 66% chance ur gonna pass soemthing through in the end.

The other angle of course here is that if people are wanting to drop Aerodactyl mainly because they actually feel Scyther is so restrictive in the builder that having this option that compresses a mediocre granbull answer at the same time would help a lot, then Scyther is the one that should really be on the chopping board first. I'm not really 100% on board with a Scyther ban myself in the current state but its something that has definitely been discussed a fair bit, with a few key community members seeming to be really in favour of it, but its definitely something that should be being discussed if the general community consensus is that its bad enough to drop Aero here.
 
I don't think anyone is really saying we need to drop Aero to deal with Scyther, and I think those types comments are a bit unfair and seem to derail the thread or re-categorize the main argument into something it's not. While I do understand that some people want to ban Scyther, the purpose of this thread is more focused on the benefits Aero has to the tier, which include more than just "checking Scyther." To highlight a few of these:
  • It acts, as Estarossa said, as a pseudo-Granbull check too. It's never going to be your main answer to it but it does help to check it a bit.
  • It helps to also blanket check things like Dodrio and Pinsir (and, additionally, makes people running these think twice about the moveset, as they have to now choose between HP Ground/Steel Wing/Rock Throw etc., pickin their checks as the OP alludes to).
  • It's not an offensive powerhouse, but it's still offensive enough to help make some progress or pick off things like weakened Nido, Lanturn, Gyara, etc.
I'm sure others can name more things too. Yes it also checks Scyther both offensively and defensively and that's very nice, but re-categorizing it as people saying "we need to drop Aero to deal with Scyther" is a bit disingenuous and we should focus on the positives Aero provides to the tier, highlight any potential negatives, look at how it performs in Slam, and then take it from there with an official test or vote. There doesn't seem to be any harm whatsoever in doing this and I cannot think of any reason why it should not happen (again, assuming it's perfectly fine during GSC Slam).
 
I've finally had some time to put together my thoughts on this, so here goes. These will be 2 posts, the first of which addresses my overall opinion on Aero and responses to the pushback against it, and the second will be going over replays of test games to illustrate what kind of impacts Aero might have on the tier.

To preface this first post, my biggest issues with the current state of GSC UU are 1) the pace of the tier due to the core interactions of RestTalking Psychics, along with bulky Grounds + Waters, and 2) the excessively constricting teambuilding due to the lack of reliable checks to many of the tier's threats as well as the low immediate offensive output of the tier. One of the major factors leading to the problematic pace and interactions of the tier is that offensive pokemon cannot risk switching into defensive pokemon because they risk taking damage or status that can invalidate their presence. For example, switching your Granbull or Scyther into a resting Mr. Mime or Hypno is a dangerous play because you risk taking a large amount of damage from Psychic/Thunder, which makes it difficult for Granbull/Scyther to come back in and recover this damage off later. Worse yet, if you lose one of your key offensive Pokemon to bad luck in interactions like this such as a crit or a freeze from a Piloswine Ice Beam, it will be much harder to break through your opponent's team. So RestTalking wars become the optimal play, as they are a much safer way of dealing with the bulk of the tier. The main problems with this are that 1) it heavily increases the influence of luck on games, as in drawn-out interactions like RestTalk wars, hax such as Psychic SpDef drops and critical hits become more likely, and 2) building becomes constrained to the few Pokemon and structures that can reliably function in these Resttalk wars - hence why you see so many Hypnos and Mr. Mimes throwing moves at each other until some luck-based advantage is gained.

So how might Aerodactyl change all of this? Aerodactyl compresses a Granbull check and a Scyther one, while also being capable of checking pokemon like Gyarados, Nidoqueen, Dodrio, Electrics, Pinsir, and Magneton. Role compression like this is very difficult to come by in GSC UU when teambuilding, and having Aerodactyl perform the roles of both Granbull and Scyther check should open up more viable team compositions. For example, teams featuring Aerodactyl would likely be able to run more Scyther-weak Pokemon such as Slowking, Victreebel, and even Bellossom. The hope is that this would improve teambuilding diversity in the tier and open up other routes of offense that would minimize the need for RestTalk wars as the most viable way to make meaningful progress. As mentioned above, Aerodactyl also has the most widespread support for a drop due to being very easily and naturally checkable while still providing important defensive qualities to its team. Aerodactyl is also not infallible defensively against the Pokemon it aims to check, as sets like Steel Wing Scyther and Thunder or Hidden Power Rock Granbull can be used to break past it, but these sets come with drawbacks for the Pokemon that use them (ex. Steel Wing Scyther finds it harder to choose its coverage on BP sets, and Thunder / Hidden Power Rock Granbull either has to give up Curse or Sleep Talk), leading to further diversity in offensive structures and (again hopefully) an overall positive impact on the tier.

I'd next like to address some of the points made by others that push back against an Aerodactyl drop:

Aero is among the best Scyther partners
Aerodactyl and Scyther stack many weaknesses together, which GSC UU teams can rarely afford given the already constrained building in the tier. Many of the the Pokemon that threaten Scyther (such as Piloswine, Omastar, Gyarados, Gligar, Lanturn, and Nidoqueen) also threaten Aerodactyl, making it difficult to pass an SD to it. Aerodactyl itself is also very checkable even if it does receive an SD, despite the fact that it can be threatening to many Pokemon, but I don't think this is a bad thing; you should be rewarded with some offensive output for successfully pulling this sequence off given the number of Pokemon that can threaten both members of the BP chain at once.

these metagames are adapting
I've had it expressed to me by teammates while playing GSC UU in tours that they would rather I just stick to proven structures in playing this tier than building anything new. This makes sense because of how restrictive building in this tier is and how everything is just barely checking each other. It is true that older metagames like this tend to have less team diversity, but this is no reason not to test things further to see if we can improve this. I don't feel we have to accept anything about the tier - if we don't like it, we change it.

If you wanna play a super active tier where you can mess around with tons of different techs, GSC as a generation may just not be your cup of tea in general.
This sentence in particular I don't think rings true at all, even just looking at GSC OU. We see innovative sets and structures all the time; look at the many different moves Gengar can run, or the various ways Electric-types are run together, or the stacking of Normal resists and/or Rapid Spin users, or any number of Snorlax / Tyranitar sets using unusual coverage or utility options. GSC has plenty of potential for this and I feel a better version of UU could support this as well.

I do believe we should be much more careful when tiering old generations unless we are willing to fully work through our history here
I think many people are willing to work through this. Lots of people clearly care about this tier (as evidenced by the response to the GSC Grand Slam I survey) and are willing to work toward improving it, so let's do just that. There is no limit on the amount of things we can test or the time we can spend on it; if it takes years to create an incredible tier, then in my mind that's worth it (and will be fun to work towards!). Furthermore, this is much more desirable than allowing this tier to continue to decline until nobody will play it anymore.

The first thing that I think is clear here and the real take away message is that, we should be trying to preserve this tiers identity as much as possible and not introducing new elements into the tier if possible.
The tier's identity is currently widely disliked. As mentioned above, the core interactions of this tier are RestTalk wars which lead to a large influence of hax on games, directly reducing the influence of player skill, and making for a tier unenjoyable to watch and play. In my eyes there is very little worth preserving about this.

This would be a particularly effective cure to one of the most major complaints amongst the high level community in this tier that Stall is an overwhelmingly strong playstyle that is very difficult to effectively handle.
I've spoken about this before on Discord but claims like these need to be backed up by either the players themselves or at the very least by screenshots.

To target the other complaints that are brought up by the more casual player community that building isn't particular diverse in this tier and that its feeling solved
This is nonsense elitism that attempts to devalue the concerns held by long-time players of the tier by calling them casuals. This tier is not exclusively for the very few people that play it in UUPL - it belongs to anyone who wants to play it. There of course should be more consideration given to those who know the tier better, but this does not mean devaluing the opinions of players and the players themselves who know what they're talking about and have been playing this tier for months if not years.

the tier has developed such an insane amount over the last few years, things like Rest Talk Dodrio, Piloswine, Gyarados + Spikes, Kadabra, Light Screen Hypno + Nidoqueen etc
None of these have really changed the issue of the core interactions in the tier being unenjoyable and restrictive. The ones you could argue have had an impact on this issue, like Dodrio and Kadabra, have glaring issues that lead most players to simply fall back on the more reliable analogues of Scyther and Mr. Mime, respectively. Dodrio has Speed and coverage issues, being outrun by Pokemon like Scyther and Electabuzz and having to choose between Drill Peck and HP Ground, while Kadabra has abysmal bulk into any attack not named Psychic, making it much less useful into everything except opposing Psychic-types.

to an extent it just feels like people need to stop geting so lazy in the builder
Again, this is nonsense that it seems to me only attempts to dismiss people for calling out the tier's issues, or it otherwise refuses to acknowledge them in the first place. You can look at the highest level games in this tier and you will see repeated usage of these proven teams (Mime + Gyara, Lanturn + Pilo) game after game because this tier is so restrictive and difficult to build in. Calling people "lazy" for this is disrespectful - people are just trying to win.
 
Last edited:
The second post I want to do as part of this is a collection of replay analyses featuring test games with Aerodactyl in the tier. These can help illustrate what impact Aerodactyl could have on the tier in terms of building and in-game interactions. Note that these are of course very hypothetical teams as this metagame doesn't even exist at this point, and is speculation on the part of the players in these test games, but visual respresentations like this often make Pokemon's impacts much more easily understood, and are worth looking at. These will be done as a replay, followed by all the interactions Aerodactyl participates in, and then followed by the key ideas to be gleaned.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ou-1835509463-86gdhd8x4qgrvi2cmersu0gbgvvlmwqpw
  • Aerodactyl comes in after Qwilfish faints, gets forced out by Feraligatr after finishing off the opposing Qwilfish
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Hypno, Curses, and does 34% to Feraligatr while dodging a Hydro Pump
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Scyther and takes 46% from Steel Wing, forces it out after
  • Aerodactyl does 46% to Nidoqueen with Earthquake, Nidoqueen misses 2 attacks, Aerodactyl significantly damages it with Earthquake
  • Aerodactyl pivots into Aerodactyl Earthquake, Aerodactyl switches out, Piloswine takes 24% from Hidden Power Rock
  • Aerodactyl comes in on resting Hypno, Hypno switches out, Aerodactyl doubles out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Nidoqueen Moonlight, Nidoqueen brings in its own Aerodactyl to dodge Earthquake from opposing Aerodactyl, opposing Aerodactyl switches out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on resting Light Screen Hypno, Curses, crits the Hypno to KO, and Nidoqueen comes in and forces Aerodactyl out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on weakened Piloswine after Scyther is KO'd by it and revenges the Piloswine
  • Aerodactyl mirror
Key Ideas:
  • Aerodactyl can spread some damage, but is often forced out easily
  • Aerodactyl can be used to pivot around Earthquakes

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ou-1836788488-b9fb38j83qzhw09icurzcyxcuoq8u55pw
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Granbull, forces it out, chips Quagsire with Double Edge and is forced out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Scyther Swords Dance, forces it out, chips Feraligatr on the switch, and is forced out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Scyther Swords Dance, forces it out (again)
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Scyther Swords Dance, forces it out (again)
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Scyther Swords Dance, forces it out (again)
  • Aerodactyl gets paralyzed by Chansey Thunder Wave, Curses twice, gets forced out by Electabuzz
  • Paralyzed Aerodactyl comes in on Granbull, forces it out, gets forced out by Blastoise
  • Aerodactyl switches in on Scyther, Hypno comes in on predicted Aerodactyl switch, both Pokemon switch out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Scyther Swords Dance, forces it out (again), Aerodactyl chips Hypno, switches out
  • Paralyzed Aerodactyl switches into Chansey, gets Thundered for 37%, Curses, gets forced out by Quagsire
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Scyther Swords Dance, forces it out (again), Aerodactyl chips Hypno, switches out
  • Paralyzed Aerodactyl comes in on Granbull, Curses, hits Quagsire for 46% with Double Edge, hits Blastoise for 42% with Double Edge, gets forced out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Scyther Swords Dance, forces it out (again)
  • Paralyzed Aerodactyl comes in on Granbull, chips the Blastoise switch for 26%
  • Paralyzed Aerodactyl comes on Chansey, doubles into Nidoqueen
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Scyther Swords Dance, forces it out (again)
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Scyther Swords Dance, Scyther stays in on Aerodactyl this time and passes to Feraligatr, Feraligatr gets Roared out for no damage done
Key Ideas:
  • Aerodactyl can repeatedly prevent Scyther from passing Swords Dance Attack boosts
  • Curse Aerodactyl can do modest damage, but not enough to immediately threaten most Pokemon with OHKOs
  • With Steel Wing, Scyther could have broken past Aerodactyl here, but it would have had to drop either Hidden Power Ground or Return on a Baton Pass set

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ou-1835505574-bhr85c7b9qshgpyctxzywpm2ucf89u6pw
  • Aerodactyl forces Qwilfish out, uses Curse + Rest to wall Mono-Normal Granbull, forces Scyther out after Scyther misses a Steel Wing, then Curse Aerodactyl sweeps with some luck
  • Aerodactyl is only able to come in on Mono-Normal Granbull, Scyther, or after a KO in this game
Key Ideas:
  • Curse Aerodactyl can sweep through weakened teams, but it can be difficult to get in position to make this possible

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ou-1835501462-4a6rakcnt0numroocexu6i8rf4dny6hpw
  • Aerodactyl comes in after a KO and forces Qwilfish out, and then is forced out by Slowking
  • Aerodactyl comes in on a failed predicted switch, and is forced out after by Feraligatr
  • Aerodactyl forces +2 Victreebel out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on a second failed predicted switch, and is forced out after by Hypno
  • Aerodactyl comes in on a third failed predicted switch, and is forced out after by Piloswine
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Feraligatr, does 22% with Hidden Power Rock and dies to Hydro Pump
  • Aerodactyl forces Victreebel out again
  • Piloswine switches into Hidden Power Rock easily
  • Aerodactyl is used to help pivot around Piloswine
  • Curse Aerodactyl attempts to 1v1 Piloswine with Hidden Power Rock, but only does 33.4-39.4% with +1 Hidden Power Rock and loses the 1v1
Key Ideas:
  • Aerodactyl is forced out easily by many Pokemon due to its poor bulk and weaknesses
  • Unboosted Aerodactyl's damage output is very poor

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ou-1835520644-bfnzx9hxrhsaxudv23aqb84yh6g502mpw
  • Aerodactyl comes in after a Scyther switch, Scyther Swords Dances, and Scyther is forced out
  • Aerodactyl mirror occurs, one Aerodactyl runs from the other's Hidden Power Rock (would do 59.4 - 69.8%)
  • Aerodactyl is forced out by Blastoise
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Piloswine and is used to pivot/double into Feraligatr
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Feraligatr, chips it for a bit with Ancient Power, and is forced out
  • Aerodactyl comes in after a Scyther switch, Scyther Swords Dances, and Scyther is forced out (again)
  • Aerodactyl Earthquakes Nidoqueen for 44, Nidoqueen gets a lucky Fire Blast burn on Aerodactyl
  • Burned Aerodactyl still forces Scyther out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Electabuzz and eats a Thunderbolt for 74%, then forces it out
  • Aerodactyl cleans up the endgame vs. a 16% Electzbuzz and 19% Piloswine
Key Ideas:
  • Aerodactyl can clean up endgames vs severely weakened teams even without a boost due to its excellent Speed

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ou-1839085564-qpmknpbb10rzf3m31u623rhxr3h2zcepw
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Haunter, eats a crit Psychic, forces Haunter out, and is forced out by Blastoise
  • Aerodactyl comes in on a Jumpluff switch, Aerodactyl protects, and is forced out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Haunter, eats a Psychic, forces it out, chips Piloswine for 25% and is forced out
  • Aerodactyl comes in after a faint, forces Haunter out, chips Jumpluff and Blastoise, and is forced out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Haunter again, is forced out by a Blastoise switch
  • Aerodactyl Earthquakes Qwilfish, chips Piloswine, and switches out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on a resting Piloswine, and switches out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on a Lanturn rest, switches out after Protecting, and does this sequence again a few turns later
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Resting Lanturn, Earthquakes a Piloswine switch, Curses, chips it with Hidden Power Rock, and gets frozen
  • Aerodactyl switches into Lanturn and thaws
Key Ideas:
  • Aerodactyl can be used to switch into Haunter repeatedly
  • Aerodactyl can still be forced out by Resting Pokemon due to its poor bulk and weaknesses

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ou-1839075187-gds15bz8r7snrc03llwhf2g4n0yily1pw
  • Aerodactyl Curses in front of a Hypno, takes Psychic, does 43% with Hidden Power Rock, takes another Psychic, does 16% to Nidoqueen, and is forced out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Scyther Swords Dance, forces Scyther out
  • Aerodactyl comes in after Feraligatr gets KO'd by Electabuzz, forces Electabuzz out, chips Blastoise for 27%, and gets forced out
  • Scyther hits the incoming Aerodactyl for 42% with Steel Wing, gets forced out, Aerodactyl KOs Hypno, Aerodactyl is forced out by Mr. Mime after
  • Scyther gets 2 Swords Dances off (unsure why Aerodactyl didn't come in here), passes to Aerodactyl which takes 56% from Nidoqueen Thunder, Aerodactyl KOs Nidoqueen, and fails to KO Blastoise with +4 Double Edge (does 76%) while being KO'd by Surf
Key Ideas:
  • Even at +4 Attack, Aerodactyl can still be safely checked
  • Aerodactyl's long-term offensive output can be minimized by its vulnerability while attempting to set up Curses

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ou-1839072836-uqf4smjw5xjiadgq572s5sog5gmfg9epw
  • Mr. Mime passes a Substitute to Aerodactyl while in front of a Hypno, Aerodactyl chips Blastoise for 23% with Earthquake, then for 28% with Double Edge and then Aerodactyl switches out
  • Scyther Swords Dances, Aerodactyl comes in, Scyther is forced out
  • Aerodactyl comes in on Curse Granbull, Granbull Thunders it as it Curses for 44%, Aerodactyl does 29% with Double Edge and takes another 49% from Thunder, Aerodactyl does 30% with Double Edge and gets KO'd by Granbull's Frustration
  • Mr. Mime passes Substitute to Scyther in front of a paralyzed Magneton, Scyther gets a Swords Dance up as Aerodactyl comes in, Scyther misses Steel Wing and Aerodactyl breaks the Substitute, Scyther switches out
Key Ideas:
  • Mr. Mime passing Substitutes to Aerodactyl is a more reliable way to enable offensive Aerodactyl sets
  • Note: +2 Scyther Steel Wing vs. Aerodactyl: 291-342 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • This game could have gone much differently, but still depended on luck for both sides with Mr. Mime getting the Magneton fully paralyzed and Scyther missing Steel Wing

That's it for the replays. I think the most important takeaways from these are that while Aerodactyl can act as a valuable check to Scyther and Granbull, it is quite limited offensively, and doesn't appear to be overpowered. Thanks for reading!
 

Estarossa

moo?
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Battle Simulator Moderator
C&C Leader
To preface this first post, my biggest issues with the current state of GSC UU are 1) the pace of the tier due to the core interactions of RestTalking Psychics, along with bulky Grounds + Waters, and 2) the excessively constricting teambuilding due to the lack of reliable checks to many of the tier's threats as well as the low immediate offensive output of the tier. One of the major factors leading to the problematic pace and interactions of the tier is that offensive pokemon cannot risk switching into defensive pokemon because they risk taking damage or status that can invalidate their presence. For example, switching your Granbull or Scyther into a resting Mr. Mime or Hypno is a dangerous play because you risk taking a large amount of damage from Psychic/Thunder, which makes it difficult for Granbull/Scyther to come back in and recover this damage off later. Worse yet, if you lose one of your key offensive Pokemon to bad luck in interactions like this such as a crit or a freeze from a Piloswine Ice Beam, it will be much harder to break through your opponent's team. So RestTalking wars become the optimal play, as they are a much safer way of dealing with the bulk of the tier. The main problems with this are that 1) it heavily increases the influence of luck on games, as in drawn-out interactions like RestTalk wars, hax such as Psychic SpDef drops and critical hits become more likely, and 2) building becomes constrained to the few Pokemon and structures that can reliably function in these Resttalk wars - hence why you see so many Hypnos and Mr. Mimes throwing moves at each other until some luck-based advantage is gained.


Again, this is nonsense that it seems to me only attempts to dismiss people for calling out the tier's issues, or it otherwise refuses to acknowledge them in the first place. You can look at the highest level games in this tier and you will see repeated usage of these proven teams (Mime + Gyara, Lanturn + Pilo) game after game because this tier is so restrictive and difficult to build in. Calling people "lazy" for this is disrespectful - people are just trying to win.
Gonna respond to this stuff primarily here.

This attitude is honestly what i'm talking about in the last point that you called nonsense in the first place. The general consensus I've had when discussing such things with people like Accel in the past when talking about Hypno RestTalk wars that people hate watching for instance is that they only happen because the two players decided in the builder that was gonna be the path they wanted to take in first place. Its not an endemic issue with the tier that its predispositioned towards it, its just that people are willing to subjugate themselves to playing them in the first place. These structures are obviously part of the tiers identity because its dictated to by top threats like Nidoqueen and Mime that such defensive cores are so good, but its been proven time and time again by top players that diverging from it and being a more aggressive player in the builder + game is one of the best keys to success in this tier.

This idea that there is anything so indestructable about these defensive Pokemon and cores without risking stuff or playing the stupid RestTalk wars is a concept from lazy building that has been proven time and time again to be untrue by those who are actually willing to put in the effor tto build outside of the comfort zone. Accel can vouch that every single week of tours I've teamed up with him I've gone into deep detail in planning on exactly how i'm gonna create offensive synergies and ways of progress making without needing to resort to such passive plays, and anyone who has my teambuilder can clearly see I have a much more offensive mindset and very rarely need to resort to such passive 1v1s unless stuff is going horribly, and its very realistic to build in a more offensive minded mindset, because we have lots of tools that actually let us do that in the end like Screens, Spikes, Boom, Spikes + Roar/Leech, Deadly Normal Wallbreakers, Ice Beam etc.

We are at a point where like a 50 turn average is fairly common in GSC games now if people aren't taking the piss by forcing long games in the builder, I would absolutely never call this a pacing issue but quite a reasonable amount of turns.

There is simply nothing wrong with there being repeated use of "proven" teams like Mime Gyara or Lanturn Pilo either, these teams are strong yes and bog standards but are punishable in the builder still and have their own faults, but they are standards precisely because they are easy to use and typically dont have any real unplayable matchups even if its very possible to put yourself in an advantageous position versus them (eg. lanturn/magneton). The concept that these teams are static is a falsehood too, such teams have gone an evolution over time that is unfair to ignore, for instance Mime Gyara was typically always Mime + Gyarados + Nidoqueen + Granbull + Qwilfish + Haunter but now has quite a few variations like Ampharos, Piloswine, Hypno etc involved in it, while Lanturn Pilo structures have evolved from the old standard Jumpluff last to seeing stuff like Screech Thief Gligar appear just within the last year or so.

We see these standard teams that people spam in plenty of other tiers too, its a natural result of there being teams that are easy to pick up and use and tend to pick up strong matchups, it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with a tier.

-----

For the sake of arguement I'll just give a few brief examples of my own personal tour teams from this year alone and the nasty offensive synergies they are capable of creating to get around your so called "issues". Obviously there are famous examples like Thief Screech Gligar on Lanturn Pilo that i invented last year too that induces far more offense into the team too, but for the sake of arguement here fresh versions of teams do a nice trick to show that there's still innovation and building to be done in 2023 and that this tier is not stagnant and that these issues are majorly overblown.

https://pokepast.es/31645905623c7579

More modern version of the old Quadruple Poison Double Psychic team, but its one of the best examples of using the best offense to be the best defense in this tier. The offensive synergies are disgusting when Victreebel + Haunter + Mr. Mime all share checks in practice, the ability to overwhelm into Mr. Mime endgames is so strong wtih a team like this especially when all members have a certain level of offense + you have strong spikes support.

https://pokepast.es/99c75512e8fde9ba

An example of how Reflect Hypno can actually be turned on its typical defensive minded head into offensive power. Thief Cross Chop Electabuzz is a severely underrated wallbreaker in the first place, but with Reflect support in the mix too the ability to just aggro pressure all those defensive Grounds is massive. On top of having Spikes + Roar Gyarados and a Boom Haunter too the team is overloaded with offensive outs to not have to resort to those passive plays and create your own offense and momentum.

https://pokepast.es/4d91cf33d3902a17

Non Roar Gyarados can be a real beast in practice, but the obvious complaint is that losing Roar's defensive utility can feel awkward in practice. Jumpluff absolutely fixes up the issues to a certain extent and allows you to suddenly have a Gyarados set that is so much more potent into stuff like Mr. Mime and Hypno and has much more dangerous immediate potential. Stoss Hypno teams also always make the 1v1s much less aggravating in general, and the presence of offense through Spikes + those 3 offensive mons + encore leech jumpluff makes you never feel like you are being forced into defensive angles.
 

MrSoup

my gf broke up with me again
is a Tiering Contributor
RBTT Champion
When initially making the OP, I anticipated a lot of the arguments and discussions that are being brought up here and in the discord. I omitted them for the sake of brevity and discussion sparking, intending to respond to them as a follow up (this). Also, as I go in more detail here, I won't really be consistently asserting the point that I think Aerodactyl should be dropped, as it's pretty evident that's what I want. This is more of just responses to common ideas and my thought process.
What's also true is that Aero is among the best Scyther partners, because a +2 Aerodactyl that you can't outspeed and can't handle defensively (it's a LOT stronger than +2 Scyther because its moves have actual base power). Teams like Hypno / Gyara / Haunter / Qwil / Lanturn / Pilo, for example, are completely destroyed by +2 Aero; the full list of Pokemon that comfortably avoid a 2HKO from +2 Aero is: Blastoise, Slowbro, Slowking, Quagsire, Piloswine, Feraligatr.
While Aero is scary with a +2 boost, most fast physical attackers like Dodrio in the tier are. The biggest point about this is that Aero and Scyther share weaknesses to all common attacks on Scyther barring Fireblast (Queen could Thunder instead). The risks of passing into an Aero with your Scyther are huge. Moreover, the checks you listed to Aero are very, very common, with 2 or more on most standard teams. Sure Aero might sweep good game states, but I don't see this as a bigger problem more than any other pass recipient. It's more likely this is problem with Baton Pass, not Aero or Scyther (or Shuckle). Also to address a point further down the road, yes, Aerodactyl stops enemy Scythers from passing to other Aerodactyls. That's just ANOTHER stopping mechanism. You don't need your own Aerodactyl on every team. A lot of this comes down to rewarding risk in your offensive choices and freeing the builder.
What I'm trying to get at here is that these metagames are adapting even if it doesn't feel like it. The recent feeling that there are only a few viable styles is exactly that, recent. It isn't an indicator of the tier being solved or impossible to innovate in; it's an adaptation to what the tier was, and the tier can adapt once again to suit its current situation.
This is a valid point in itself but is a little paradoxical. Sure, metas develop and the development can be slow, but GSC UU is a largely untouched tier in regards to tiering efforts in recent times. Simultaneous saying we should be more patient with development and tiering action, when said patience has led to a meta many are unhappy with, doesn't yield any results. It's not like this PR thread is following some recents massive shake ups to the tier -- no, GSC UU has largely been like this for a long, long time. IMO tiering decisions in the near future are more than justified.
But selectively dropping things isn't the way to go about it unless we're going to systematically work through everything, and I do believe there would be a number of active GSC UU players that would go against this; I'm not going to speak for anyone else, they can do that themselves, but outcry in a relatively buried thread in the GSC section isn't super indicative of the full playerbase, especially those who play it in tournaments - the overlap there is surprisingly minimal.
I am in no way opposed to following the route of ADV UU, but it wasn't the intention of this post for several reasons. The most major one is Slam giving us a testing opportunity. Sure it's selective but at least the selection was a popular choice -- one that many thought might even have a small chance at improving the meta. The second is that it was always implied, at least in my opinion, that if the Aerodactyl suspect was a popular decision, then we would logically be open to different tiering in the future. If it weren't popular than a whole systematic drop system wouldn't make sense to follow. I see this as a litmus test. Third, I assumed that if this is what people wanted, they would voice it in the thread. Again, I'm largely just trying to give a centralized platform for discussion. No matter what people's stance on this, however, I didn't see a world where Aerodactyl wasn't the first option given the upcoming tournament.
Regardless of anything, I'm far more interested in seeing how the GSC Grand Slam tournaments with Aero legal go. Those are a lot more valuable than theorymonning IMO. If it proves itself to be a positive addition, setting up a survey/vote seems like a fine call, but let's not rush it. These tiers are very slow-moving and need to be treated with care if action in them is going to be taken at all.
There's no rush here. This PR thread went up at a time to bring discourse around the idea just a week before Slam started. As I stated in the OP, it was always my intention to wait for how Slam turned out. I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.
The first thing that I think is clear here and the real take away message is that, we should be trying to preserve this tiers identity as much as possible and not introducing new elements into the tier if possible. Although the tier lock was removed this was intended for exceptional circumstances and we should still be aiming to make the least destructive changes possible.
I'm going to keep my response to you here brief as we have talked at-length personally personally and on discord about this topic. You know how I feel but there are a few thing I'd like to point out here. First to back up what both Celebiii and BFM have stated, no, a tier's identity is not worth preserving if the majority of people dislike it. Given that many have quit in recent times, and there is an influx of newer voices on the scene, we shouldn't be beholden to the old guard. Interest here is dipping. We can preserve the identity of the tier, sure, amongst its two active players. Use a few motivated players as an opportunity, not a death-sentence.
Multiple Pokemon have been repeatedly spouted as being things people want to explore the bans of in this tier, so why are we exploring unbans first? This thread in particular feels awkwardly timed because of this as Shuckle has extremely high support amongst the high level tour players in GSC UU for a ban, and has very little opposition. Given the plans to discuss this post UUPL this thread has essentially jettisoned this too.

The most major aspect here is that its a totally non-disruptive ban too that will help lighten the load in teambuilding - you now no longer need to concern yourself quite so ridiculously over how much stall counterplay you are packing whenever you face someone who has a habit of sometimes loading it, but also more options for those cool wallbreakers pop up that can acftually do work too - but stall still remains viable through Omastar stall structures that have to be more cognizant of the not so easy matchups while shuckle isn't viable anywhere else unlike a lot of the other stall elements.

To target the other complaints that are brought up by the more casual player community that building isn't particular diverse in this tier and that its feeling solved [...]

[...] to an extent it just feels like people need to stop geting so lazy in the builder and actually just defaulting to their basic mime gyaras and their pilo teams etc.

The key take away message here is, make a shuckle ban first as its pretty heavily agreed on by the high level playerbase, a bunch of whom are actually against any unbans currently anyway. If scyther is still viewed as a problem like a few people believe, then explore that.
The only reasonably supported ban right now that may actually fix the issues players want fixed is Scyther, which, as has been stated above, is a much more inferior option to an Aerodactyl drop, as it is removing one of the few consistent breakers from the tier. Baton pass by itself, on the other hand, is a different PR thread and has a totally different precedent of being regarded as uncompetitive in many metas. I don't see a problem with this if there were support to open a PR thread about it and take action.

Shuckle, on the other hand, is almost a non-factor to this thread. It hardly addresses anything in the OP regarding checks in teambuilding, role compression, BL drops, or the upcoming Slam. Start a Shuckle thread if you want, no one is stopping you. I won't discuss my thoughts on it here because it's rather irrelevant. However, one thing that is not irrelevant is dismissing community opinion. Use of the phrases "high level tour players," "casual player community," and "lazy in the builder" are pretty problematic. Where is the delineation between who has a valid and invalid opinion amongst a playerbase of 10 or so individuals? Starting in a certain teamtour doesn't give anyone more credit in this thread, given that they're invested in this tier. If said high level players care about this or oppose it, they'll post themselves. It's hard to take this point seriously when they're not even motivated enough to care. Moreover, while I do understand that the Slam vote was relatively niche, I do think it goes to prove that at least more people are interested in looking at unbans. Some top players (whoever they are) may have voted to ban shuckle had they known about it, but I dont think you can realistically convince me that it would've won the vote.

(Side note the lazy building comment is particularly weird in response to the OP considering you know I disagree with you about building on many levels, and we pretty consistently create different stuff).

The general consensus I've had when discussing such things with people like Accel in the past when talking about Hypno RestTalk wars that people hate watching for instance is that they only happen because the two players decided in the builder that was gonna be the path they wanted to take in first place.
A few things about this post. First, it's a little weird to say general consensus of the playerbase and then talk about a discussion you've had with one player (not to discredit them at all, I'm sure they're great at the tier and a great person). I for one, have had many different conversations with players that wouldn't lead me to believe this is the general consensus. Second, it would seem a little counterintuitive to simultaneously overvalue the top players you've mentioned, who, just like almost all players, still default to these building styles. And no, it's not laziness, it's just that they have little drawbacks. They are, in fact, strong, and the situation with RestTalk, while not the dominant strategy, is hardly the WRONG choice. It is difficult to fit what you need defensively and offensively onto your team in this tier without defaulting. Yes, you provided examples, but they have some inherently worse MUs. No one is saying you can't differentiate your builds. The current meta just makes it restricting. And I am not claiming Aerodactyl solves all of these issues, I'm just asserting that it can help alieve some of the issues in this mess. Think of how many more builds you could make with Aero!

To me, another level of this conversation is the inherent silliness of everyone saying "yeah I agree, Aerodactyl wouldn't be too good or too strong or too centralizing in this meta," but having some say in the same breath it shouldn't be dropped. Yes, I understand the historical precedent of the situation and the 'other' options for moving forward. But to my understanding, a lot of the reason change has never arisen is a lack of motivation by the playerbase. We have that now; we have the inertia. Let's not kill it. What route we take exactly is certainly up in the air, but this, in my opinion, is a unique moment where meta opinion is at a low and motivation to make change is rising.

(Also it's a shame no one is responding to Sabelette's post, which was completely based and has amazing points that are hard to argue against).
 
Last edited:
As a bona fide member of the high level community, I for one welcome the experimentation suggested in this thread; preservation of identity and what have you have always been nonsense metrics and metagaming should always be geared towards providing the healthiest, best version of a tier you can achieve with the resources available. While I agree there are stones (relatively) unturned in terms of parity breaking in this tier atm, I see no reason for anyone to put on hold the endeavors of those most passionate about the tier to exhaust all possible venues in a controlled setting to wait for folks to glacially push new ideas into the lexicon biannually for them to 'count'.

Keep on gsc'ing, gsc'ers
 
I was asked a while ago to comment on this matter and I guess it was kind of overwhelming to read everything. I couldn't be bothered.

I would like to say that I have not the time to have an entirely informed opinion on the matter as of yet because well... it's hard to speak on the unbanning of a pokemon that has never effectively been used in the history of this metagame up until this moment.

THANK YOU for providing replays. I hope I get the chance to look at these. In any case, though it's nice to see so much attention that this tier has garnered, I do value the opinions of people who have actually played the tier more. So if we can get the intervention of further players from the UUPL seen (this is preferable, some names like Mr.378 kaori d0nut Earthworm, also thanks to Estarossa for the input) that would be swell. Do not feel compelled to do so and feel free to ignore my ping if you don't care but I figured I'd let people more active than me give their opinions since I haven't been playing in months.

Thanks for the other players as well, including BFM and Celebii for their efforts and their contributions to the tournament scene. And also Beeorsomething's contribtions to the UUBL tier should be recognised as well.

For the N-th time I'm going to say that since I'm not playing as much I haven't had any tmie to test stuff out. I will say that we have to be cautious not to jump on any bandwagon just because we want to make a change for the sake of seeing one. Sometimes being too involved and not asking ourselves the right questions can draw us farther from the truth.
 
Now that GSC UU Cup has ended, I think it's extremely clear to me that Aerodactyl is 1) not broken, 2) not oppressive, and 3) adds positive influence to the metagame. As someone that has played the GSC UU Aero the most alongside BeeOrSomething and Real FV13 I think all 3 of us can agree that Aerodactyl in GSC UU is a positive addition and we really should do something soon to officially vote on this.

I do think that the higher UU Community probably doesn't want to do an immediate vote, so I think the most sensible thing to do would be to officially test Aerodactyl in the next upcoming GSC UU tour (probably UUSD in the fall), and then have a vote on it afterwards. This will ensure that any "high level" players who didn't participate in GSC UU Slam will also get to test it out and develop their own thoughts on it. But we for sure have to do something about it, whether it's voting on it right or officially testing it in next UU tour. The community response seems very clear cut on this one and the games I've seen all back it up - Aerodactyl has no business being trapped UUBL.

In an effort to expand a bit on the reasoning behind this - my previous points 1 and 2 are pretty self-explantory - Aero is not broken or oppressive, regardless of what playstyle you are using (I even got an SD Pass off to it a few times and it didn't dominate, just broke down 1 or 2 things). For point 3, it adds many positives: I was able to still use Scyther successfully sometimes in the face of Aero if I could predict the switch-in with Steel Wing, but sometimes I couldn't and was forced to switch. More importantly, I had to pick what to check since I couldn't freely run HP Ground anymore all the time. Additionally, Aero was a great answer to Curse Bull, which seems incredibly less effective in this new meta which is 100% a good thing. It makes Bull run HP Rock or Thunder. And most importantly, there seems to be a lot more variety in the tier now - stuff like Magneton and Ampharos are seeing more usage, Feraligatr and Slowbro seem better, Gligar is better, and none of the old mons are necessarily much "worse" except for Scyther and Granbull and Shuckle (what more could you want!)

Overall, please do the right thing and test this mon officially and let's have a vote on it using the appropriate lists etc. If we do do nothing, then it will be a big letdown and it would also be a bit odd/suspicious given the clear support here and the clear demonstrations during GSC UU Slam Cup that Aero is fine.
 

BeeOrSomething

Daylight Savings Time sucks
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Now that GSC UU Cup has ended, I think it's extremely clear to me that Aerodactyl is 1) not broken, 2) not oppressive, and 3) adds positive influence to the metagame. As someone that has played the GSC UU Aero the most alongside BeeOrSomething and Real FV13 I think all 3 of us can agree that Aerodactyl in GSC UU is a positive addition and we really should do something soon to officially vote on this.

I do think that the higher UU Community probably doesn't want to do an immediate vote, so I think the most sensible thing to do would be to officially test Aerodactyl in the next upcoming GSC UU tour (probably UUSD in the fall), and then have a vote on it afterwards. This will ensure that any "high level" players who didn't participate in GSC UU Slam will also get to test it out and develop their own thoughts on it. But we for sure have to do something about it, whether it's voting on it right or officially testing it in next UU tour. The community response seems very clear cut on this one and the games I've seen all back it up - Aerodactyl has no business being trapped UUBL.

In an effort to expand a bit on the reasoning behind this - my previous points 1 and 2 are pretty self-explantory - Aero is not broken or oppressive, regardless of what playstyle you are using (I even got an SD Pass off to it a few times and it didn't dominate, just broke down 1 or 2 things). For point 3, it adds many positives: I was able to still use Scyther successfully sometimes in the face of Aero if I could predict the switch-in with Steel Wing, but sometimes I couldn't and was forced to switch. More importantly, I had to pick what to check since I couldn't freely run HP Ground anymore all the time. Additionally, Aero was a great answer to Curse Bull, which seems incredibly less effective in this new meta which is 100% a good thing. It makes Bull run HP Rock or Thunder. And most importantly, there seems to be a lot more variety in the tier now - stuff like Magneton and Ampharos are seeing more usage, Feraligatr and Slowbro seem better, Gligar is better, and none of the old mons are necessarily much "worse" except for Scyther and Granbull and Shuckle (what more could you want!)

Overall, please do the right thing and test this mon officially and let's have a vote on it using the appropriate lists etc. If we do do nothing, then it will be a big letdown and it would also be a bit odd/suspicious given the clear support here and the clear demonstrations during GSC UU Slam Cup that Aero is fine.
I agree 100%. Playing with and against Aero, it never felt oppressive for a moment. In the builder it's really nice, being able to check Granbull and the bugs in 1 slot is really nice. Don't have much to add to this at the moment, free aero.

Some trends I noticed throughout GSC UU Open:
- Thunder Bull stocks up big time
- Slowbro up
- Gatr up
- Blastoise up
- Scyther down for obvious reasons. Steel wing is still fine to chip Aero down, and I think that's the play with Scyther. Tbh bp sets probably die out, not enough coverage and you get shut down by Aero. I think the way to go with Scyther is definitely play the long game and keep it hidden or use steel wing on it and try and slowly kill Aero or make it rest over the course of the game.
- Electrics in general win big. Especially Magneton, since it synergizes so well defensively with Aerodactyl to cover Bull. Lanturn and Ampharos also work great with Aero, covering waters
- All the grounds like Aero around, especially since Aero's presence means there will be more electrics (see: point above)
- Haunter, despite gaining new competition for resisting normal, imo goes up. Synergizes well with Aero defensively to cover all Bull possibilities, can boom on waters and Pilo and such for Aero
- Pinsir down. It's still great in matchups without Aero, and it can just rock throw or body slam Aero down, but obviously it has slightly more trouble with Aero around.
- Omastar down. Doesn't like the rise of Electrics and Waters with Aero around, more norm resist competition, doesn't synergize well with Aero since they're both weak to thunder.
- There was like no Dodrio ever lol lmao
- There was like no Jumpluff ever lol lmao
- Didn't see very much stall. Tbh Aero probably cooks stall once you remove Blastoise lmao, but this is just a very surface level view
- Any ideas of like double bug + bull hyper offense are probably really bad to try and use since they don't have the longevity to try and wear Aero down

Important Takeaway
Aero was like number 2 in usage throughout slam or something. Don't take all this as gospel for the future of the metagame or whatever

Things that don't care about Aero that much
- Hypno is still amazing
- Qwilfish is still amazing
- Mime is still amazing
- Yes, Gyarados is still very good. Don't get too excited.
- Stall is probably still like the exact same

Additional note about Aero itself
4mss is a pain. You need curse imo, you need hp rock (or ancient power, both are fine), and the last 2 slots you want all of earthquake, roar, and rest/protect (also sleep talk ig but least notable here). Can't have everything you want with Aero, which ultimately I think is a good thing.

Anyways, free Aero. I think it should be let into the metagame. It's not broken by any means. At this point I'm mostly repeating though, just read through the rest of this thread for the main talking points. Mainly just made this to comment about Slam.
 
Last edited:
I agree with Bee most of points, so maybe ill repeat, gonna be short:

- I think Aero fits well in the tier, its not broken, provides variety to the tier making certain pokes to run different sets without forgetting the old ones (or so i hope) and another granbull check which is amazing, I really noticed it when i was building having like 1 slot more of space, i mean, gives you the possibility to check the most dangerous gbull set, control Scyther and the chance of RK.
- Aero has some options to fulfill the role you want with a decent movepool and has no specific set, but yeah the main one gonna be deal with bugs+gbull. However, the presence of aero is not the end for Scyther (Steel Wing), Pinsir (Rock Throw) and Gbull (Thunder and Curse HP Rock), for sure will take some time to them to take down Aero, but it isnt as difficult as it seems. Even Dodrio can evolve with some new sets.
- About the effects of it presence in the tier outside gbull and scyther: bulky water types as Blastoise (RSpin) or Slowbro gonna rise on usage and be on every team, yeah, pilos forced this before, but with gyara lowering usage (still good, maybe we can see gyara with different sets from now). Due Aero weakness to water and electric, Electrics as Ampharos and Magneton gonna rise a lot and probably some other mons not so common. Maybe Haunter is going to be able to have a more free role. Quagsire gonna rise and with surf as option (ban quagsire please).
- About about stall, i dont think Aero improves stall too much, the strength of the stall gonna keep being the core of chansey+quagsire, but its true the coverage between this 3 is insane on paper. At least Aerodactyl doesnt have Haze as Crobat, but still has curse+roar or reflect.
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnus
UU Leader
So after a bit of discussion in the UU discord, here's the plan of action:

  • We'll be holding off on voting until after UUSD (likely starts around August).
    • The reason for this is that, as of right now, a lot of the players who would be on the qualified voters list will have never played a game of GSC UU with Aerodactyl legal; a decent amount likely played in GSC Slam but for anyone who missed it, they are not gonna have an informed opinion about Aero's impact on the tier.
    • As a side benefit, it gives us some time to run suspect tournaments for anyone who wants the chance to vote on Aerodactyl but doesn't have reqs right now / wasn't able to get them in Slam.
  • Because it's part of the UU Circuit, which we don't really wanna tamper with, Aerodactyl won't be legal in GSC Cup. This also gives a chance for players to compare the Aero v. non-Aero meta.
  • After UUSD, there will be a survey to see how people want to proceed with Aero. A public one will be posted in this thread, and a private one will be DMed to everyone qualified for the vote. The latter will obv be weighted a bit more, but I do want to ensure everyone gets their say, so both surveys will be taken into account.
  • If anything unexpected happens like a RoA Spotlight Ladder for GSC UU, I'm happy to approve Aerodactyl's temporary unban for that. I don't know if I even have the authority to do that but yea, cool with me.
Is this fine? If there are any further questions feel free to PM me or post them here and I'll be happy to answer. I think it's pretty clear that Aero isn't broken by any means, but due process is important and giving it a little more time in the oven lets us figure out whether or not its impact is positive. Seems most people think it is, but who knows if that may change.

o7
 
The reason for this is that, as of right now, a lot of the players who would be on the qualified voters list…
Do we happen to know what the qualified voter list will consist of? I assume it will be anyone who played >50% games with 1 win in recent gsc UU team tours (upcoming UUSD, past UUPL, GSCPL), as well as semi finalists in upcoming Classic GSC UU Cup, all for sure. I think that’s the only automatic reqs, so what about the following:

Past UUSD 2022
UUFPL III 2023
Past UUPL 2022
GSC Grand Slam GSC UU Cup
Any other past tours

I think that for sure semifinalists in this recent GSC Slam GSC UU cup should be qualified voters, since it was the current most relevant Aero tour. The rest I’m not sure, it’s really up to UU heads on what precedent says about it, but the main reason I’m asking this is so that, if there are in fact suspect tours, people should probably know if they are already qualified or not so that they can aggressively participate in the tours if they aren’t already qualled.
 
UUSD has elected to test both Aerodactyl and Muk, which has seemingly got nearly unanimous support within the community to test. After speaking with several GSC UU community members, including what some might call bona fide members of the high level community, the best approach to handle Aerodactyl and Muk seems to be 3 separate tests in actual Team Tours to really get a good grip on the meta. As such, the best roadmap to follow would be:

UUSD: Test both Aerodactyl and Muk - this has already been confirmed happening and is the best tour to really get a grip on how these two mons will interact with each other and the meta. The reason is that UUSD is completely UU-based, and as such many UU community members are involved in the process which is important to seeing a new meta play out in building, testing, and actual high level tournament play. I am excited that we are giving this a shot and look forward to seeing how it goes.

GSC PL: Test just Aerodactyl - Aero was already "tested" in GSC Slam (see above posts), but nothing official, and also an individual tour involves far less scrutiny than a team tour. GSC PL seems the perfect tour to solidify this stand-alone Aero test since A) it isn't anything too new and many players have already tried out the meta, and B) it allows players to see how an Aero meta without Muk would hold out on the team tour stage. While there's not as much scrutiny in building/testing as in UUSD, GSC PL still has many of the best UU players playing and we can definitely see how this meta feels once it's done.

ALT PL: Test just Muk - This is the more controversial of the tests, which is why it's reserved for last, but it would be helpful to see how a Muk stand-alone meta and ALT PL is just low stakes enough to get it done and get an idea on how it looks. There's only ever been one ALT PL but it was a major success and many GSC UU players do get involved with building and playing in it. Since ALT PL is at the start of the year (usually, RoA Mods permitting), this can be the final test in this trio.

After all three of these are done, then we can hopefully do a vote before next year's UUPL starts to solidify the new meta that the community chooses. It would be either Aero + Muk freed, just Aero freed, just Muk freed, or neither freed (so maybe a rank choice vote is in order). We are dramatically altering the GSC UU meta and so it's important to do this appropriately with all avenues exhausted before deciding on the change. After this we can let it sit for a bit and see how it plays out, and hopefully it's the GSC UU meta we all dreamed was possible.
 

Mr.378

The Iron Man of Ubers
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I agree with the process listed above. Really idealistically all of bl would move to uu as it's an old outdated version of what bl actually is and as a tier it is better than uu but if this is what we are doing so be it. Aerodactyl is nowhere near problematic in uu as we saw in snake and muk is fine as well from my experience tbh. Testing them in the above tours along with what has been done so far should be a good compromise of being through while being 'speedy' and actually getting this done.
 

MrSoup

my gf broke up with me again
is a Tiering Contributor
RBTT Champion
Given that the original intention of this thread was to look at Aerodactyl I will keep my chatter about Muk's presence on the meta to a minimum. I don't feel excessively opinionated on it as of this moment but I'm all for testing it.

That being said I'm incredibly pleased with Aerodactyl's second test in UUSD being approved, whether it be with Muk or not. The plan above, which has also been thoroughly discussed in the UUSD Format Discussion Thread seems fine with me. Of course I was hopeful to get a vote through after UUSD as originally intended, but so long as this doesn't get continually pushed back I'll be very happy. I don't wish to be hasty about the situation, but ATP I really don't think any further testing on Aero, especially after the three tours outlined above, will change anyone's mind from pro or anti freeing.

While GSCPL has yet to start, it seems like the state of tests for UU in the tour is in limbo, which sort of confuses me. I thought it would be presumed that there would be some sort of test in the tour, given the mon hasn't been voted on and the tour is not part of a circuit. In fact, I would venture to say almost everyone with a vested interest assumed Aero would be tested here, with or without Muk.

As a final note, if Muk testing gets clogged up, please don't let that affect this this thread. Muk can always be scrunitinized after an anti or pro Aero vote. Let's keep this on track and if Muk is slated at the same time or after that's fine by me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top