Ladder Almost Any Ability

[grurk]

Saying that you can stop them getting up hazard with Magic Coat, Spin or Skarm leads is kinda missing the point though. Sure you /can/, but that is dependent on such a large number of factors that calling them reliable stops is a whole other matter. The fact is that all of those are reliant on a: the Deo user leading with Deo, and b: the Deo user not doing what any player with a brain would do (switching out of the coat user to lay hazards later or them going to a spinblocker/using the essentally free switch that Spin provides to steal momentum). Prankster Skarmory can't Taunt through Mental Herb, meaning that the Deo user is guaranteed at least one layer of Spikes before it gets Taunted, meaning that it can just keep using Spikes until the Skarm Taunts a second time and then proceed to punish the incoming Defog with a Defiant/Competitive mon. Once those hazards are up, offense is capable of putting huge pressure onto the opposing team which allows for them to be protected well and for their removal to be easily punished, which is why the Deos start to cause problems, because being unable to use Magic Bounce as a buffer v.s. a Spikes stacker is a huge problem because it means there is no way to guarantee that they don't get the first layer of hazards up and start the vicious cycle. You are right to say that they aren't /broken/ in the traditional sense, but the support that they provide is uncompetitive due to there being no reliable counterplay to it.

you argument relies upon thee fact that it's guarenteed to get 1 layer, but that's not particularly impressive, azelf is also able to do this and it can explode. What people don't seem to understand is that leads are made to get up hazards, and they normally should be able to and if they can't it should be because of a niche, otherwise it'd be very difficult for teams to get up hazards at all.

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Just going to say that I'm seeing a lot of people that are asking why we shouldn't ban Skymin, but it's the other way around. Anyone who is pro ban should bring up all the arguments for Skymin's ban, why you think it's broken, why you think removing it would make for a better metagame, and how the meta would change as a consequence. After that is done the counterarguments and the discussion can start, but I don't really see the arguments to begin with. (okay there were a couple short paragraphs here and there, but I think we could have a much better discussion if we organized it a bit more. Also keep in mind that any suspect/ban would most likely start after the Open anyway)

There were some arguments already posted they are just scattered. I'll make a more comprehensive post soon with all the arguments in one place.

the fact that it is being used implies that players are being conditioned to use it meaning that when they are playing hyper offense they aren't doing as well as when they are in ou or any of the other tiers and when they play stall or semi stall they are doing better than they are in ou or any of the other tiers.

You didn't read what I said, if you lead with skarmory, rapid spin or magic coat your opponent willl not get off hazards. Also what the idiot ninja said.

We already discussed how Deo-D gets hazards up on Skarmory. It Taunts, then lays hazards and recovers off Brave Bird damage.

As for Magic Coat, that is incredibly niche/gimmicky. If you can find me one Ou or AAA analysis listing Magic Coat as a viable option I will be seriously impressed. If not that just helps prove that Deo is broken, as it forces players to run gimmicks to beat it.

Yes Rapid Spin can fairly reliably prevent Deo from getting hazards up. Hence "almost impossible" and not "impossible." But being forced to run Rapid Spin in order to have counterplay to the Deo forms isn't healtlhy for the meta imo. Deo can shut down ever other form of hazard prevention without support. This to me, is broken, as it limits teambuilding and battling skill.

 

[grurk]

There were some arguments already posted they are just scattered. I'll make a more comprehensive post soon with all the arguments in one place.


We already discussed how Deo-D gets hazards up on Skarmory. It Taunts, then lays hazards and recovers off Brave Bird damage.

As for Magic Coat, that is incredibly niche/gimmicky. If you can find me one Ou or AAA analysis listing Magic Coat as a viable option I will be seriously impressed. If not that just helps prove that Deo is broken, as it forces players to run gimmicks to beat it.

Yes Rapid Spin can fairly reliably prevent Deo from getting hazards up. Hence "almost impossible" and not "impossible." But being forced to run Rapid Spin in order to have counterplay to the Deo forms isn't healtlhy for the meta imo. Deo can shut down ever other form of hazard prevention without support. This to me, is broken, as it limits teambuilding and battling skill.

all the arguments scattered around the place are "it hits hard and is fast." and don't go into much more detail and certainly none of them go into detail about how the meta would change without it and if the change is good or bad
"III.) Providing justification is the onus of the side changing the status quo.
A.) It is important to note that the status quo can be changed in the case of releases. This is the situation with Hoopa-Unbound, where it started directly in OU unlike other 680 BST legendaries which start as Ubers and then potentially get suspected to drop to OU.
B.) If a proposal is made to ban a Pokemon, Ability, Item, or Move, the side suggesting this ban must demonstrate all of why this is necessary, how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, and provide evidence for both.
C.) If a proposal is made to unban a Pokemon, Ability, Item, or Move, the side suggesting this unban must demonstrate all of why this is necessary, how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, and provide evidence for both.
D.) Complex bans proposals must provide additional information into why the simpler bans are not sufficient."
I got that quote from the tiering policy, from the link you provided, I also showed this quote earlier but you chose to ignore it.

As for deoxys you are completely missing the point There are ways that you can stop it from getting up hazards if your teams needs to stop it early. These ways aren't necessarily common or easy, but if they were then Deoxys would be a bad pokemon and wouldn't be used. If it were easy to stop him from getting hazards then getting up hazards in aaa would be incredibly difficult if a pokemon that is specifically designated on your team only to get up hazards can't do it.

 

[Laxpras]

all the arguments scattered around the place are "it hits hard and is fast." and don't go into much more detail and certainly none of them go into detail about how the meta would change without it and if the change is good or bad
"III.) Providing justification is the onus of the side changing the status quo.
A.) It is important to note that the status quo can be changed in the case of releases. This is the situation with Hoopa-Unbound, where it started directly in OU unlike other 680 BST legendaries which start as Ubers and then potentially get suspected to drop to OU.
B.) If a proposal is made to ban a Pokemon, Ability, Item, or Move, the side suggesting this ban must demonstrate all of why this is necessary, how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, and provide evidence for both.
C.) If a proposal is made to unban a Pokemon, Ability, Item, or Move, the side suggesting this unban must demonstrate all of why this is necessary, how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, and provide evidence for both.
D.) Complex bans proposals must provide additional information into why the simpler bans are not sufficient."
I got that quote from the tiering policy, from the link you provided, I also showed this quote earlier but you chose to ignore it.

As for deoxys you are completely missing the point There are ways that you can stop it from getting up hazards if your teams needs to stop it early. These ways aren't necessarily common or easy, but if they were then Deoxys would be a bad pokemon and wouldn't be used. If it were easy to stop him from getting hazards then getting up hazards in aaa would be incredibly difficult if a pokemon that is specifically designated on your team only to get up hazards can't do it.

That's such a straw man argument, so much more has been said than that, it's just gone ignored. For example its speed tier can run modest and still outspeed base 110 mons. It can run timid with adaptability and 2hko walls even like Chansey with a seed flare drop. You said levi steel types stop it, and as KS pointed out a tinted lens set will eat a steel switchin up. It being broken comes from its ability to outspeed essentially everything in the meta, and put a dent in any wall, there is no special wall to it. Even latios can be stopped with something like cresselia. Skymin has nothing due to tinted lens destroying steel. And then there's always the occasional sub seed set that will catch anyone off guard and can wear down any team that is attempting to stop skymin, as well as the occasional gale wings or even just serene grace. There are various sets to skymin, and its main two are essentially unstoppable. So if you actually read through everyone's posts there is a lot more than "its fast and strong" so it would be better for the discussion if you didn't just tie our argument together into that, but would counter the specifics instead (even though saying it outspeeds it KOs everything is a pretty decent ban reason).

So here are some specifics:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 222-262 (68.9 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (lol)

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 238-280 (33.8 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-->
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 476-560 (67.6 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Kingslayer2779]

all the arguments scattered around the place are "it hits hard and is fast." and don't go into much more detail and certainly none of them go into detail about how the meta would change without it and if the change is good or bad
"III.) Providing justification is the onus of the side changing the status quo.
A.) It is important to note that the status quo can be changed in the case of releases. This is the situation with Hoopa-Unbound, where it started directly in OU unlike other 680 BST legendaries which start as Ubers and then potentially get suspected to drop to OU.
B.) If a proposal is made to ban a Pokemon, Ability, Item, or Move, the side suggesting this ban must demonstrate all of why this is necessary, how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, and provide evidence for both.
C.) If a proposal is made to unban a Pokemon, Ability, Item, or Move, the side suggesting this unban must demonstrate all of why this is necessary, how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, and provide evidence for both.
D.) Complex bans proposals must provide additional information into why the simpler bans are not sufficient."
I got that quote from the tiering policy, from the link you provided, I also showed this quote earlier but you chose to ignore it.

As for deoxys you are completely missing the point There are ways that you can stop it from getting up hazards if your teams needs to stop it early. These ways aren't necessarily common or easy, but if they were then Deoxys would be a bad pokemon and wouldn't be used. If it were easy to stop him from getting hazards then getting up hazards in aaa would be incredibly difficult if a pokemon that is specifically designated on your team only to get up hazards can't do it.

I ignored it because you put a blob of text from the tiering policy into the middle of your post with little context or explanation.

And i already explained i am writing a more comprehensive and in depth post on why Skymin should be banned, these things take time. And i'm not going to talk about why the meta might change because that is pure speculation and theorymonning.

I already explained how Deo gets around hazard prevention options you already listed. So i'm not what methods of preventing deo from setting hazards you are referring to. And while obv if it couldn't get up hazards well it wouldn't be good, it also shouldn't have limited to no counterplay. And the Deos have extremely limited counterplay. It does not require much player skill to set hazards with the Deos.

the fact that it is being used implies that players are being conditioned to use it meaning that when they are playing hyper offense they aren't doing as well as when they are in ou or any of the other tiers and when they play stall or semi stall they are doing better than they are in ou or any of the other tiers.

I forgot to address this part, but what you are saying is pure speculation. I could claim all the HO players play stabmons and you can't prove me wrong. Speculation based on some stats with no further evidence to back it up is bs.

 

[grurk]

That's such a straw man argument, so much more has been said than that, it's just gone ignored. For example its speed tier can run modest and still outspeed base 110 mons. It can run timid with adaptability and 2hko walls even like Chansey with a seed flare drop. You said levi steel types stop it, and as KS pointed out a tinted lens set will eat a steel switchin up. It being broken comes from its ability to outspeed essentially everything in the meta, and put a dent in any wall, there is no special wall to it. Even latios can be stopped with something like cresselia. Skymin has nothing due to tinted lens destroying steel. And then there's always the occasional sub seed set that will catch anyone off guard and can wear down any team that is attempting to stop skymin, as well as the occasional gale wings or even just serene grace. There are various sets to skymin, and its main two are essentially unstoppable. So if you actually read through everyone's posts there is a lot more than "its fast and strong" so it would be better for the discussion if you didn't just tie our argument together into that, but would counter the specifics instead (even though saying it outspeeds it KOs everything is a pretty decent ban reason).

So here are some specifics:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 222-262 (68.9 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (lol)

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 238-280 (33.8 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-->
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 476-560 (67.6 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The fact is that, similarily to every other pokemon in the tier, all it's sets have a counter, for tinted lens you can use a chansey and for tinted lens you can use levi steel. (also btw even with tinted lens tran still counters). by the way, latios is more complicated than that due to the fact that it can run calm mind, meaning that cresselia isn't really able to 1v1 it and don't even get me started on heracross.

I ignored it because you put a blob of text from the tiering policy into the middle of your post with little context or explanation.

And i already explained i am writing a more comprehensive and in depth post on why Skymin should be banned, these things take time. And i'm not going to talk about why the meta might change because that is pure speculation and theorymonning.

I already explained how Deo gets around hazard prevention options you already listed. So i'm not what methods of preventing deo from setting hazards you are referring to. And while obv if it couldn't get up hazards well it wouldn't be good, it also shouldn't have limited to no counterplay. And the Deos have extremely limited counterplay. It does not require much player skill to set hazards with the Deos.



I forgot to address this part, but what you are saying is pure speculation. I could claim all the HO players play stabmons and you can't prove me wrong. Speculation based on some stats with no further evidence to back it up is bs.

"if a proposal is made to ban a pokemon, the side suggesting this ban must demonstrate all of why this is necessary, how it affects the ladder and tournament scene and provide evidence for both"-ou tiering policy
"And i'm not going to talk about why the meta might change because that is pure speculation and theorymonning."-Kingslayer
"Unless Kl4ng decides to set a new standard of ban for AAA, i'm going to base my arguments on the OU one. That seems reasonable to me."-Kingslayer
So you wish to follow ou tiering policy unless it requires you to do something you don't want to do?

Yes deoxys CAN get around most of the options I listed but that doesn't mean you still can't prevent him from getting hazards. I disagree, I think it should absolutely have limited counterplay because limited counterplay means that it's easy to stop him getting hazards which means it's difficult to set up hazards which is not something which I would consider ideal for a meta. It shouldn't require skill to set up hazards.

Saying that a meta's ladder useage represents how good a given thing is in a meta is not pure speculation. Saying that all the hyper offense players play stabmons would be a very odd claim, and I could prove you wrong by asking a hyper offense player if they play stabmons and if they respond with no then you were wrong. I assume that there was some sort of typo in here, I think you meant that I could claim that all the HO players do really well on the stabmons ladder and I couldn't prove you wrong. I couldn't prove you wrong on this, however you would need to back it up and I wouldn't unlike what I am saying which I've already outlined. it would be very strange if the weighted figures were from people doing very poorly, for it to be true that stall doesn't do well you would have to compare non-weighted and weighted figures. If you do so you'll see that stall does slightly better the higher up you go, however I don't think that these figures are statistically significant.

 

[Laxpras]

The fact is that, similarily to every other pokemon in the tier, all it's sets have a counter, for tinted lens you can use a chansey and for tinted lens you can use levi steel. (also btw even with tinted lens tran still counters). by the way, latios is more complicated than that due to the fact that it can run calm mind, meaning that cresselia isn't really able to 1v1 it and don't even get me started on heracross.


"if a proposal is made to ban a pokemon, the side suggesting this ban must demonstrate all of why this is necessary, how it affects the ladder and tournament scene and provide evidence for both"-ou tiering policy
"And i'm not going to talk about why the meta might change because that is pure speculation and theorymonning."-Kingslayer
"Unless Kl4ng decides to set a new standard of ban for AAA, i'm going to base my arguments on the OU one. That seems reasonable to me."-Kingslayer
So you wish to follow ou tiering policy unless it requires you to do something you don't want to do?

Yes deoxys CAN get around most of the options I listed but that doesn't mean you still can't prevent him from getting hazards. I disagree, I think it should absolutely have limited counterplay because limited counterplay means that it's easy to stop him getting hazards which means it's difficult to set up hazards which is not something which I would consider ideal for a meta. It shouldn't require skill to set up hazards.

Saying that a meta's ladder useage represents how good a given thing is in a meta is not pure speculation. Saying that all the hyper offense players play stabmons would be a very odd claim, and I could prove you wrong by asking a hyper offense player if they play stabmons and if they respond with no then you were wrong. I assume that there was some sort of typo in here, I think you meant that I could claim that all the HO players do really well on the stabmons ladder and I couldn't prove you wrong. I couldn't prove you wrong on this, however you would need to back it up and I wouldn't unlike what I am saying which I've already outlined. it would be very strange if the weighted figures were from people doing very poorly, for it to be true that stall doesn't do well you would have to compare non-weighted and weighted figures. If you do so you'll see that stall does slightly better the higher up you go, however I don't think that these figures are statistically significant.

Ok that's pretty much our point though the two counters are completely different and you have no way of knowing what set its running so what are you supposed to run counters to both? Or just get lucky? And tran can wall it on the first switch in, but with the lack of recovery tran won't do the job for long. Especially with all the hazards that deoxys is putting up, which you also don't think is a problem

EDIT: Just expanding on that... If you have to run TWO counters to be able to deal with ONE mon, don't you think that's a bit much? Especially if those counters may not even be able to handle things like subseed or no guard grass whistle? Not that those are common, but skymin can run so many sets, you can't possibly stop them all, if any.

 

[grurk]

Ok that's pretty much our point though the two counters are completely different and you have no way of knowing what set its running so what are you supposed to run counters to both? Or just get lucky? And tran can wall it on the first switch in, but with the lack of recovery tran won't do the job for long. Especially with all the hazards that deoxys is putting up, which you also don't think is a problem

EDIT: Just expanding on that... If you have to run TWO counters to be able to deal with ONE mon, don't you think that's a bit much? Especially if those counters may not even be able to handle things like subseed or no guard grass whistle? Not that those are common, but skymin can run so many sets, you can't possibly stop them all, if any.

Do you think we need to ban Heracross? Heracross has no counters. doublade is 2hko'd by tough claws knock off. Intim zapdos is 2hko'd by stone edge, you are forced to bb w/ skarm which kills you, intim skarm has to do the same. Intim suicune is 2hko'd by skill link bullet seed and 3hkos with tough claws cc and suicune does nothing in return.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 160-190 (49.6 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
(160, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176, 178, 180, 182, 184, 186, 188, 190)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 200-236 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(200, 202, 204, 206, 210, 212, 214, 216, 218, 220, 224, 226, 228, 230, 232, 236)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 238-282 (71.2 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(238, 242, 244, 248, 250, 252, 256, 258, 262, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282) (+150 from bb recoil)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 200-240 (49.5 - 59.4%) -- approx. 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(40, 40, 40, 42, 42, 42, 42, 44, 44, 44, 44, 46, 46, 46, 46, 48)
Do you think we should ban latios? It can 2hko chansey, it can set up on cresselia it can 2hko heatran meloeta is 2hko'd as well

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 348-410 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(348, 352, 356, 360, 364, 368, 372, 376, 380, 384, 388, 392, 396, 400, 404, 410)
0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 64-76 (21.4 - 25.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
(64, 64, 66, 66, 66, 68, 68, 68, 70, 70, 72, 72, 72, 74, 74, 76)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 186-220 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(186, 188, 190, 192, 194, 198, 198, 202, 204, 206, 208, 210, 212, 216, 216, 220)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Meloetta: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(244, 246, 250, 252, 254, 258, 260, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288)

if you do not think that these pokemon should be banned despite have no one counter please explain why.

 

[Laxpras]

Do you think we need to ban Heracross? Heracross has no counters. doublade is 2hko'd by tough claws knock off. Intim zapdos is 2hko'd by stone edge, you are forced to bb w/ skarm which kills you, intim skarm has to do the same. Intim suicune is 2hko'd by skill link bullet seed and 3hkos with tough claws cc and suicune does nothing in return.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 160-190 (49.6 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
(160, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176, 178, 180, 182, 184, 186, 188, 190)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 200-236 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(200, 202, 204, 206, 210, 212, 214, 216, 218, 220, 224, 226, 228, 230, 232, 236)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 238-282 (71.2 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(238, 242, 244, 248, 250, 252, 256, 258, 262, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282) (+150 from bb recoil)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 200-240 (49.5 - 59.4%) -- approx. 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(40, 40, 40, 42, 42, 42, 42, 44, 44, 44, 44, 46, 46, 46, 46, 48)
Do you think we should ban latios? It can 2hko chansey, it can set up on cresselia it can 2hko heatran meloeta is 2hko'd as well

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 348-410 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(348, 352, 356, 360, 364, 368, 372, 376, 380, 384, 388, 392, 396, 400, 404, 410)
0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 64-76 (21.4 - 25.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
(64, 64, 66, 66, 66, 68, 68, 68, 70, 70, 72, 72, 72, 74, 74, 76)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 186-220 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(186, 188, 190, 192, 194, 198, 198, 202, 204, 206, 208, 210, 212, 216, 216, 220)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Meloetta: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(244, 246, 250, 252, 254, 258, 260, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288)

if you do not think that these pokemon should be banned despite have no one counter please explain why.

Its an easy explanation actually.... Look at skymin's speed tier... look at Heracross's. And I never said anything about latios. But like I said I wish you would discuss the specifics of shaymin rather than just shift the topic. Like yeah there are things that hit hard, look at rampardos? Its the speed tier with the combination. So try to stick to the specifics of skymin instead of ignoring my points to just bring up other mons.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

There's basically three people shouting in a box and listning to their own echo at this point, i'd suggest we move the discussion along.

I've been having a lot of fun with Regenvest Metagross as a latios counter, since it handles the Adapt and tinted lens sets pretty nicely, while also providing pursuit support for gengar/other metagrosses/alakazam & lat@as

 

[MZ]

Yeah but I guess I really have to second how having no counters on something that outspeeds the unboosted meta outside of Megaman and Deo-S (does anybody use megazam?) is so much better than "maybe I cant switch into Heracross but I always have Entei and Gengar and MegaMeta to check it so it's not too bad". I agree that not having counters isn't enough, but it's important combined with Skymin's other traits

 

[Lcass4919]

if something scares both offense and stall, it should be suspected. thats what hera and the others lack. shaymin has checks, revenge killers and (kinda) counters but its still able to completely tear apart most teams it runs against just because of their lack of switchins more often then not. as far as "banworthy" goes, it scrapes the surface, but in all honesty, its a very 50/50 argument and super debatable. even i'm kinda in the middle of if it is or not.

 

[grurk]

Latios threatens offense and stall. Also it's not very easy to completely tear apart teams for shaymin, it can be done but it's not particularly easy. I'd also like to mention that shaymin is one of the few things that offense has to deal with ph suicune, and some other set up pokemon that become much better in almost any ability thanks to poison heal. Offense has huge trouble dealing with suicune imparticular without shaymin, and may often run otherwise unviable sets like trick lum berry.

 

[OM]

That's such a straw man argument, so much more has been said than that, it's just gone ignored. For example its speed tier can run modest and still outspeed base 110 mons. It can run timid with adaptability and 2hko walls even like Chansey with a seed flare drop. You said levi steel types stop it, and as KS pointed out a tinted lens set will eat a steel switchin up. It being broken comes from its ability to outspeed essentially everything in the meta, and put a dent in any wall, there is no special wall to it. Even latios can be stopped with something like cresselia. Skymin has nothing due to tinted lens destroying steel. And then there's always the occasional sub seed set that will catch anyone off guard and can wear down any team that is attempting to stop skymin, as well as the occasional gale wings or even just serene grace. There are various sets to skymin, and its main two are essentially unstoppable. So if you actually read through everyone's posts there is a lot more than "its fast and strong" so it would be better for the discussion if you didn't just tie our argument together into that, but would counter the specifics instead (even though saying it outspeeds it KOs everything is a pretty decent ban reason).

So here are some specifics:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 222-262 (68.9 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (lol)

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 238-280 (33.8 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-->
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 476-560 (67.6 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Just going to reply because I'm skimming through the last two pages but have you tried Regenvest Goodra?

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 75-90 (19.6 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 96-114 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 57-68 (14.9 - 17.8%) -- possible 6HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Dazzling Gleam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 101-122 (26.5 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 112-133 (29.3 - 34.9%) -- 12.3% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -2 240 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 146-172 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. -2 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 161-190 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 190-226 (49.4 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO <--- tinted Lens + Luck = Broken

KS brought this to my attention; and I find it to be really, really nice

 

[motherlove]

Just going to reply because I'm skimming through the last two pages but have you tried Regenvest Goodra?

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 75-90 (19.6 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 96-114 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 57-68 (14.9 - 17.8%) -- possible 6HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Dazzling Gleam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 101-122 (26.5 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 112-133 (29.3 - 34.9%) -- 12.3% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -2 240 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 146-172 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. -2 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 161-190 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 190-226 (49.4 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO <--- tinted Lens + Luck = Broken

KS brought this to my attention; and I find it to be really, really nice

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 108-130 (28.3 - 34.1%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
That's essentially a 2hko with the drop, just sayin'.

Also, have you tried other grass types? Roserade is really good and with desolate land it doesn't give 2 shits about cune, serperior with taunt pretty much sets up on it and regular shymin can dank it pretty hard too.

Faster roar like zappy or mew are pretty good too.

 

[Lcass4919]

Just going to reply because I'm skimming through the last two pages but have you tried Regenvest Goodra?

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 75-90 (19.6 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 96-114 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 57-68 (14.9 - 17.8%) -- possible 6HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Dazzling Gleam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 101-122 (26.5 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 112-133 (29.3 - 34.9%) -- 12.3% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -2 240 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 146-172 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. -2 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 161-190 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 190-226 (49.4 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO <--- tinted Lens + Luck = Broken

KS brought this to my attention; and I find it to be really, really nice

as ks pointed above, goodras good, but a VERY shaky check for my favorite skymin set, and the only set people should be running on it...do people seriously run life orb? the entire reason of tinted is to hit hard with specs and shrug off resists...lol

 

[imas]

So, since skymin is the topic of discussion, here's two mons I've used that do Decent vs it while maintaining other uses.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 24 SpA / 236 SpD
Sassy Nature
- U-turn
- Discharge
- Roost
- Roar / Toxic

Zapdos, thanks to it's immunity/resistance to all of Skymin's common moves and the bulk, it serves as a nice switchin to Skymin. It also serves as a counter to Skarmory and Suicune and a very solid check to non sheer force Tail Glow Manaphy* and Bulk Up Braviary. Discharge is a strong STAB move with a nice para chance that makes offensive pokemon fear switching into it. U-Turn maintains momentum vs Motor Drive manaphy switchins and lets you bring in say, Latios, safely to revenge kill when you're running the Roar variant and it already has a +3 boost (and it has no speed boost) while you're already in the field. Roost is recovery, lets it do its job better. Roar shuffles out PH cune / other setup pokemon it can't normally beat. Defog can be used in the last slot, but skarm is such a good defogger, i end up using it in most of my teams. It paired well in that one team in conjunction with Skarmory, which kept the field hazard free, and Manaphy, which helped vs refrigerate pokemon like Entei and fire types.

*Tox variant beats it 100% of the time when manaphy switches into it and tries to setup, assuming no freeze hax ofc

Scizor @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Pursuit

Worst part of facing Latios/Skymin/Gengar with an offensive team is the inability to switch into them. So, I wanted to use Scizor which, with a fully SpD set could switch in and slow U-Turn out to bring in a suitable pokemon to beat those. Sure, melo's probably better at that but Scizor has Pursuit and can actually hit decently hard while switching with U-turn or while using any of its moves, thanks to it's naturally good Physical Attack.

 

[Laxpras]

So, since skymin is the topic of discussion, here's two mons I've used that do Decent vs it while maintaining other uses.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 24 SpA / 236 SpD
Sassy Nature
- U-turn
- Discharge
- Roost
- Roar / Toxic

Zapdos, thanks to it's immunity/resistance to all of Skymin's common moves and the bulk, it serves as a nice switchin to Skymin. It also serves as a counter to Skarmory and Suicune and a very solid check to non sheer force Tail Glow Manaphy* and Bulk Up Braviary. Discharge is a strong STAB move with a nice para chance that makes offensive pokemon fear switching into it. U-Turn maintains momentum vs Motor Drive manaphy switchins and lets you bring in say, Latios, safely to revenge kill when you're running the Roar variant and it already has a +3 boost (and it has no speed boost) while you're already in the field. Roost is recovery, lets it do its job better. Roar shuffles out PH cune / other setup pokemon it can't normally beat. Defog can be used in the last slot, but skarm is such a good defogger, i end up using it in most of my teams. It paired well in that one team in conjunction with Skarmory, which kept the field hazard free, and Manaphy, which helped vs refrigerate pokemon like Entei and fire types.

*Tox variant beats it 100% of the time when manaphy switches into it and tries to setup, assuming no freeze hax ofc

Scizor @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Pursuit

Worst part of facing Latios/Skymin/Gengar with an offensive team is the inability to switch into them. So, I wanted to use Scizor which, with a fully SpD set could switch in and slow U-Turn out to bring in a suitable pokemon to beat those. Sure, melo's probably better at that but Scizor has Pursuit and can actually hit decently hard while switching with U-turn or while using any of its moves, thanks to it's naturally good Physical Attack.

Unfortunately Zapdos isn't switching in on the tinted lens set
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Zapdos: 216-256 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I've used the scizor set and it can hold its own, but escavalier probably does that job better

 

[Lolo Monto]

how do you post replays?
I'm planning on trying skymin to see if it is actually broken

Most of the arguements against skymin sound similar to the ones on the old aaa thread talking about banning keldeo because of it's ability to run multiple sets very effectively

 

[imas]

how do you post replays?
I'm planning on trying skymin to see if it is actually broken

Most of the arguements against skymin sound similar to the ones on the old aaa thread talking about banning keldeo because of it's ability to run multiple sets very effectively

After you click "save replay" it gives you a link. You can copy that link and paste it here. I recommend saving a few of those replays in a notepad and post the best ones here after you have done quite a few battles and want to use your saved replays to make a point.

 

[Lolo Monto]

Thanks for the help

 

[xRoyUltra]

Guess will leave some opinions over here:

: Still broken with abilities like Sheer Force and Gale Wings

Just out of curiosity, how is Sheer Force Archeops broken?
Stone Edge hits harder than Sheer Force Rock Slide, and Bounce is a 2 turn move.
I don't see the danger in it's STABs after getting a Sheer Force boost.

 

[motherlove]

Just out of curiosity, how is Sheer Force Archeops broken?
Stone Edge hits harder than Sheer Force Rock Slide, and Bounce is a 2 turn move.
I don't see the danger in it's STABs after getting a Sheer Force boost.

Still broken with abilities like Magic guard and Gale Wings*
I guess it's just a mistake, thought sheer force focus blast / heat wave could get past bulky steels maybe, idk.

How long ago was the message you quoted anyway?

 

[Funbot28]

Very long ago lol
Ya I was specifying special sets btw

 

[G-Luke]

Im new, but why is Cube banned? I thought it gaining MOVES would break it.