Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[the-bumper-car]

People who don't want Scolipede to be banned: Please stop using arguments like "Scolipede isn't broken outside of BP" or "Scolipede has important viable sets." Those were used as (terrible) arguments before to object to the banning of previous suspect mons, and they didn't help one bit.

However, I think an important issue that needs to be discussed is: Why won't banning Scolipede fix the problem?

I have a few answers for that
1. BP Abuse teams still have access to good Speed and Defense Passers: Zapdos (Agility), Vaporeon (Acid Armor), and Smeargle (Quiver Dance).
2. Ninjask still exists. Yes, he sucks way more than Scolipede (lack of Iron Defense, 4x weak to rocks, can't switch into any attack at all). But Ninjask can play the role of a suicide Speed Boost+Substitute lead if they want to go all in on the strategy - it guarantees they'll successfully pass Speed+Sub against any lead that isn't Prankster Taunt or Talonflame/MegaPinsir, and that can be all the opportunity a BP Abuse Team needs.
3. Removing Scolipede from a BP abuse team just worsens BP's match-up against Physical Attack oriented teams *slightly*. Zapdos still walls a good number of the notable threats, and is resistant to most priority attacks (barring the rare Ice Shard). Espeon and Sylveon can still Calm Mind in front of most Special Attackers. And Stall still won't get past them.
4. Quiver Dance/Shell Smash Smeargle can also boost and pass multiple stats at the same time, and can set-up on certain threats that Scoli can't thanks to Spore.

Next, why banning Ingrain/Aqua Ring won't fix BP Abuse teams.
1. Ingrain is only used as a redundant insurance policy against phazing. Espeon, Sylveon, and Mr. Mime already give BP Abuse teams enough of an immunity to almost all notable phazing moves.
2. Ingrain's healing is also only used as a back-up for most BP teams. BP teams already have Leftovers on almost everyone, and they have Aqua Ring Vaporeon as a tank, on top of Morning Sun Espeon.
3. Ingrain isn't the only anti-Stall weapon in BP Abuse's arsenal. Espeon is arguably a bigger problem.

 

[Slayer95]

No. It doesn't have Iron Defense.

That would only be a sufficient reason if we assumed that in order for a Speed Booster to fulfill its role in a Baton Pas team it must have Iron Defense (or a similar defense-boosting) move. However, Srn9130 is showing an actual playtest of Ninjask, of which we need more if we are going to discuss whether Scolipede is the root of BP op-ness or not.

Personally, I believe that Scolipede is the biggest offender, yet not the reason of BP's power. However, replays should show that or the contrary, specially given that Ninjask has been used to some success in BW.

 

[Chou Toshio]

So, in other words, if we made a species ban on eevee evolutions preventing you from using them together-- it would screw with baton pass.

Not saying that that's at all a great solution, but there it is-- pretty terrible and arbitrary; but then most of the other suggestions also look pretty terrible and arbitrary.

 

[Galladium]

Yes, we know that Scolipede is (overall) better than Ninjask. The question is: "Is Ninjask good enough?"

No. It doesn't have Iron Defense.

That would only be a sufficient reason if we assumed that in order for a Speed Booster to fulfill its role in a Baton Pas team it must have Iron Defense (or a similar defense-boosting) move.

Scolipede is not just a 'Speed Booster', it fulfils a completely different niche because it has Iron Defense. Ninjask is a Speed Booster because that's pretty much the only thing it can be used for, but as Scolipede can boost it's defenses, it is in a separate category to Ninjask. You can't really compare the two.

 

[linkinparkrules]

I've battle with lots of BP team before, so here're what i'm thinking

In gen IV, baton pass teams didn't hav much, because there was no Espeon at that time. gen IV BP teams usually boost stat and when appropriate, BP to a sweeper. That's how old-fashioned BP was made. gen V was more kind and flexible to BP teams with the introduction of magic bounce and stored power, which make BP team mainly spam special atk (again, Stored Power). Why BP strategy is not viable in Uber? Because of powerful atk from legendary pokemon. Those can destroy substitute of BP even if they get a boost, since BP pokes are quite frail in uber. Can't gen many boosts to spam stored power.

Now in gen VI, BP gets more power with the introduction of fairy type. Of course this strategy in uber is still not viable, but in OU... can't spam Dragon type move anymore. We hav more Infiltrator to deal with BP, but they're almost dead weight when dealing with other strategy because of not really good speed (Chandelure) or power (Noivern). It's really hard to play Infiltrator abuser, because beside SubPunch, BP, dual screen (rare) and other Sub+3atk poke, this ability can't do anything more. BP teams are now even more able to get many boosts and spam Stored Power easily.

In conclusion, I think we should ban STORED POWER + BATON PASS, because the combination of those 2 can wreck opponent's team's pokemons easily, even with great bulk like Aegislash or Metagross, too. OK so you all think Dark type can deal with that? Wrong again. Hyper Voice from Sylveon destroys Dark type. If we ban the combination above, BP chain can back to gen IV like it used to be, pass boost to a poke to spam normal attack, but more flexible.

That's my opinion, hope you guy approve it :)

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Next, why banning Ingrain/Aqua Ring won't fix BP Abuse teams.
1. Ingrain is only used as a redundant insurance policy against phazing. Espeon, Sylveon, and Mr. Mime already give BP Abuse teams enough of an immunity to almost all notable phazing moves.
2. Ingrain's healing is also only used as a back-up for most BP teams. BP teams already have Leftovers on almost everyone, and they have Aqua Ring Vaporeon as a tank, on top of Morning Sun Espeon.
3. Ingrain isn't the only anti-Stall weapon in BP Abuse's arsenal. Espeon is arguably a bigger problem.

Ingrain is the only reliable solution to any Whirlwind user: Skarmory, Hippowdon, Snorlax, Mandibuzz, Crobat, etc.
Without Ingrain, Espeon switches in and dies to: Brave Bird, Earthquake, Return, Knock Off. This makes the game exactly balanced in the case of stall vs bp. If either make correct predictions, the game is won.
Ingrain also is the only thing stopping Red Card from being an easy win for Stall. Simply spamming entry hazards and Seismic Toss until they kill something with Stored Power will allow you to win. You then bring in your Sturdy + Red Card: Foretress / Skarmory and its game over.

Ok, what i'm hearing (mainly from one person) is that scolipede is the root of all the problems that baton pass has.

Several users actually have agreed with Banning Scolipede as a solution. I agree with it because in a standard BP chain you have:

Speed Booster, Two Part Physical Wall Core, Two Part Special Wall Core, Sweeper / Utility.
Before Scolipede, standard Baton Pass teams were not able to couple speed and physical wall core (Scolipede + Vaporeon is the standard core now).

If you use Ninjask, you still need a physical wall core member, such as Scizor or Mawile. But then you can no longer run Utility Smeagle, which makes you unable to free counter 1 pokemon. This also forces you to run a physically defensive Espeon to counter Whirlwind stall teams, which I covered above. Which then means you need another special wall... So in short, without Scolipede covering two roles, you are open to much more counters.

If you want to see what B/W Baton Pass looked like with Ninjask, check out the RMT I made for it way back when I first introduce Defensive Baton Pass. It was highly successful in B/W. Feel free to try it. It's success in XY is a complete joke however though, as you simply can't counter everything :(

 

[Prince Oberyn]

In conclusion, I think we should ban STORED POWER + BATON PASS, because the combination of those 2 can wreck opponent's team's pokemons easily, even with great bulk like Aegislash or Metagross, too. OK so you all think Dark type can deal with that? Wrong again. Hyper Voice from Sylveon destroys Dark type. If we ban the combination above, BP chain can back to gen IV like it used to be, pass boost to a poke to spam normal attack, but more flexible.

That's my opinion, hope you guy approve it :)

TBH, even if you ban Stored Power, Baton Pass would still be ridiculously powerful. I'm pretty sure with a Sub up and a couple of Iron Defences, Calm Minds and Speed Boosts that not much will be able to resist a Sylveon's Pixilate boosted Hyper Voice anyway. I know Stored Power is wicked strong (I think it can reach a Base Power of 740 or something - you know a special move it OP if it can OHKO a Chansey lol) but even if you ban you've still got to somehow deal with all these boosting Pokemon with their Magic Bounce and Ingrain and whatnot.

 

[linkinparkrules]

TBH, even if you ban Stored Power, Baton Pass would still be ridiculously powerful. I'm pretty sure with a Sub up and a couple of Iron Defences, Calm Minds and Speed Boosts that not much will be able to resist a Sylveon's Pixilate boosted Hyper Voice anyway. I know Stored Power is wicked strong (I think it can reach a Base Power of 740 or something - you know a special move it OP if it can OHKO a Chansey lol) but even if you ban you've still got to somehow deal with all these boosting Pokemon with their Magic Bounce and Ingrain and whatnot.

Wow, +6 4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 349-412 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Or i think we should ban Stored Power+Baton Pass+ Magic Bounce, maybe?

I believe we can't ban just Espy or Scolipede or something all of you said above that'll make a complex ban, so we need to play around BP team.

Actually, rain team this gen can deal BP team really well, because of Perish song Poli+ bullet punch Scizor.

Oh i forgot to mention Haze, but outside of countering BP, it's completely useless...

 

[the-bumper-car]

Ingrain is the only reliable solution to any Whirlwind user: Skarmory, Hippowdon, Snorlax, Mandibuzz, Crobat, etc.
Without Ingrain, Espeon switches in and dies to: Brave Bird, Earthquake, Return, Knock Off. This makes the game exactly balanced in the case of stall vs bp. If either make correct predictions, the game is won.

None of those mons are gonna be OHKOing or (2HKOing with Leftovers recovery) Espeon with those attacks, which is the only calc that matters. Stall needs to make perfect predictions as long as Espeon + Sylveon are still alive, while BP can make a few mispredictions and still come out on top. The match-up is still horribly skewed in favor BP.

Ingrain also is the only thing stopping Red Card from being an easy win for Stall. Simply spamming entry hazards and Seismic Toss until they kill something with Stored Power will allow you to win. You then bring in your Sturdy + Red Card: Foretress / Skarmory and its game over.

Good luck getting hazards up with Espeon on the team! (Also, are you seriously recommending people use Forretress in Gen VIOU?) There are so many things wrong with this strategy:
1. You need to have at hazards up. (Espeon). Also, worst case scenario they can add a Defog user.
2. This also means you have to keep your Sturdy Red Card user perfectly healthy until they can come in and switch in after a Stored Power kill. A mispredicted switch, any sort of hazards on your side, or getting your phazing bounced and you're doomed.
3. The BP team can still start setting up if Espeon is still alive. (What exactly is Forretress and Skarmory doing to Espeon?)
4. If your Sturdy Red Card dies, you now have a fully set-up Stored Power user about to sweep the rest of your team.

Several users actually have agreed with Banning Scolipede as a solution. I agree with it because in a standard BP chain you have:

Speed Booster, Two Part Physical Wall Core, Two Part Special Wall Core, Sweeper / Utility.
Before Scolipede, standard Baton Pass teams were not able to couple speed and physical wall core (Scolipede + Vaporeon is the standard core now).

If you use Ninjask, you still need a physical wall core member, such as Scizor or Mawile. But then you can no longer run Utility Smeagle, which makes you unable to free counter 1 pokemon. This also forces you to run a physically defensive Espeon to counter Whirlwind stall teams, which I covered above. Which then means you need another special wall... So in short, without Scolipede covering two roles, you are open to much more counters.

If you want to see what B/W Baton Pass looked like with Ninjask, check out the RMT I made for it way back when I first introduce Defensive Baton Pass. It was highly successful in B/W. Feel free to try it. It's success in XY is a complete joke however though, as you simply can't counter everything :(

Nope, without Scolipede the problematic core of Espeon + Sylveon + Smeargle is still intact. They can still run Agility Zapdos, Acid Armor Vaporeon, and/or Mega Mawile to fill the role of Physical Wall, as these 3 are neutral or resistant to the priority flying around in OU. Ninjask becomes practically suicide lead, yes, but it's still difficult to stop it from passing Speed + a Sub to the rest of the team.

The only way to make BP Abuse teams fair for both Offense and Stall teams to deal with is to limit the number of passers they have. if Scolipede or Espeon gets banned, then I can accept a 4 BP User limit, but if no bans happen then 3 BP users is the safer limit.

 

[Durant]

Here's one more suggestion:

Ban Substitute/Protect + Speed Boost on a set. That lets priority (Talonflame, Mega Pinsir) reliably check Scolipede, and keeps it from getting a free +1 speed pass on Turn 2 in most other situations. It also forces the BP player to make a decision Turn 1 instead of auto Protect/Sub.

Thoughts?

That wouldn't really solve the problem as first of all this means other Speed boost users like yanmega and Sharpedo can't use Substitute or Protect if they have the speed boost ability and those guys will be nerfed for no reason. Second while Scolipede speeds up the process there can be ways around this ban like Agility Scizor and Zapdos.

 

[Jukain]

Agreed. But Smogon is too lazy to do that.

Truth be told, the majority of top tier players on Smogon are having their flawless teams beaten by 'noobs' with Baton Pass. They don't view it as a worthy style of play so they try to ban it rather than change their teams so they can beat 'noobs.'
"Oh but it's just too overcentralizing!" ... Sounds like a lazy excuse to not get creative with team building. There are over 700 Pokemon in the game, are you seriously trying to tell me that stalls only viable solution to Baton Pass comes from a single Pokemon named Mega Gyarados? Combinations of pokemon, moves and tactics in general should beat Baton Pass, not a single ability on some obscure Pokemon.

Given time, knowledge, and an excess of Baton Pass teams to practice against, I think we will see Baton Pass is not overcentralizing. But since there are a vast majority of players that dismiss the entire playstyle as noob, we will likely see some nerf in the end...

Man if you can't comprehend what's wrong with BP then just stop. 'Lazy excuse' please, more like not make team shit vs everything but BP with obscure garbage. The fact that you have had such success with BP but clearly lack any meta knowledge exemplifies how broken it is.

 

[rachet67]

I did refute it: read my arguments. And I didn't act like anything; I just presented my arguments for the very real possibility of Scolipede's ban, and refuted other people's absurd arguments for the complex ban of Ingrain, Aqua Ring, etc.

Haunter has not actually made a decision, nor has the OU Council. He might prefer a clause of 3 Baton Passers in order to make the archetype more manageable, but it hasn't been tested. And keep in mind, I didn't state a clause won't work. I just questioned whether a complex engineered ban is more effective than banning the root of the actual problem, Scolipede.

We didn't issue a complex Baton Pass clause before, so why now? Because of Scolipede. It's the only new tool, an overwhelming support tool, besides Mr Mime's type change and the introduction of Sylveon. Before, a 6 man Baton Pass was of no concern or problem. It wasn't a top ladder presence. Why? Because we didn't have a bulky, versatile, and reliable support Pokemon that boosts Speed freely and Def trivially, with the ability to restart the chains numerous times over the course of a single match.

If Smogon bans Scolipede, we go back to Baton Pass in 5th Gen, with the inclusion of Sylveon. No auto-speed initiative, no free or trivial acquired chain-reboots, no ridiculous support functionality on one Pokemon.

If we issue an unnecessarily complex clause, we kill the archetype of the chain, and turn Baton Pass into a concentrated half-pass with the same problem: Scolipede.

People keep saying that banning Scoliopede won't change Baton Pass that much, and instead of providing solid evidence why ninjask would be awful, you've just said Scoliopede is the only thing introduced to BP since gen 5. Yes, banning Scoliopede makes BP teams lives much harder against offensive teams (which can already deal with full BP). If we're banning BP teams on the basis that it determines wins on matchup against certain play styles, such as stall, banning Scoliopede would achieve nothing.

Your argument also implies that full Baton Pass teams weren't ban worthy in gen 5. The only reason full BP wasn't suspected last gen, was beacuse there was so much other broken stuff to suspect all throughout the generation as we delt with the power creep, and because full BP wasn't the only thing that shitted on stall. Honestly the entire generation screwed stall over, and thus BP was the least of its problems. The other thing that has changed since gen 5 is that more and more people are using stall teams, and because of this, BP teams can be much more succesful on the ladder than last gen.

 

[jbtc10]

The fact that you have had such success with BP but clearly lack any meta knowledge exemplifies how broken it is.

Not necessarily; it exemplifies how shit a lot of people on the ladder are. I've also seen a ton of shit players get to 1700+ with HO because of how incredibly easy it is to use, but nobody uses that as a reason for why anything from HO should be nerfed, so there's a clear double standard there.

 

[Dread Arceus]

Ingrain is the only reliable solution to any Whirlwind user: Skarmory, Hippowdon, Snorlax, Mandibuzz, Crobat, etc.
Without Ingrain, Espeon switches in and dies to: Brave Bird, Earthquake, Return, Knock Off. This makes the game exactly balanced in the case of stall vs bp. If either make correct predictions, the game is won.
Ingrain also is the only thing stopping Red Card from being an easy win for Stall. Simply spamming entry hazards and Seismic Toss until they kill something with Stored Power will allow you to win. You then bring in your Sturdy + Red Card: Foretress / Skarmory and its game over.



Several users actually have agreed with Banning Scolipede as a solution. I agree with it because in a standard BP chain you have:

Speed Booster, Two Part Physical Wall Core, Two Part Special Wall Core, Sweeper / Utility.
Before Scolipede, standard Baton Pass teams were not able to couple speed and physical wall core (Scolipede + Vaporeon is the standard core now).

If you use Ninjask, you still need a physical wall core member, such as Scizor or Mawile. But then you can no longer run Utility Smeagle, which makes you unable to free counter 1 pokemon. This also forces you to run a physically defensive Espeon to counter Whirlwind stall teams, which I covered above. Which then means you need another special wall... So in short, without Scolipede covering two roles, you are open to much more counters.

If you want to see what B/W Baton Pass looked like with Ninjask, check out the RMT I made for it way back when I first introduce Defensive Baton Pass. It was highly successful in B/W. Feel free to try it. It's success in XY is a complete joke however though, as you simply can't counter everything :(

You say you need a "physical wall core member" if Scolipede is lacking.
1. In what world does anybody really consider Scolipede a "physical wall".
2. Since when is Vaporeon not a physical wall?
Scolipede isn't the root of the problem with Gen 6 BP, it's a part of it. The other things that are making it powerful are 1. The relatively small amount of Special set-up sweepers anymore (Lando-I and Manaphy are about all that are commonly used in OU), 2. Sylveon, who takes away the problem BP teams would otherwise have with Dark-types, 3. A meta not used to seeing the mons on BP outside of BP, thus, counters specifically for them are much less common, 4. the buff to Mr. Mime's typing, 5. (fairly minor, but still relevant) The ability to get rid of Stealth Rocks without breaking the chain, thus preserving Smeargle's Focus Sash, and 6. The playstyle has been figured out and perfected, whereas players used to refuse to use it in most of the past Gens at all simply due to the fact that it casts a negative image and makes the player seem unskilled.
All in all, there's a whole lot more to BP than just Scolipede. Realistically, it just makes more sense to limit the number number of BP users on a team to 3.

 

[RowDog]

The only thing which is making Scolipede appear broken (I still don't personally believe that it is the real issue here) is its ability to pass defence along with the core. The Speed and Defence boosts that it passes are not what helps it kill stall. I mean honestly, stall doesn't rely on strong physical attackers to grab KOs but more passive damage, and honestly since when has stall really given 2 fucks about speed? The problem with Scolipede is it better fights Hyper Offensive teams in that they rely on Speed and in a Physical metagame can struggle to break through the defence boosts. Not that I find that Scolipede is still too great against HO considering all the Flying types that still utterly nail it before it can properly do its job and get enough boosts to pass and still be threatening. This is why I don't find it the biggest threat on BP chains. It helped raise BP teams to popularity this gen because it helps these chains better compete with Offensive teams, which it could have struggled with in the past, and so it makes it a better choice then winning most of the time vs stall and then losing a lot of the time to offence.

Anyway, regardless of whether you agree about that, you got to agree on this: Scolipede is NOT broken without Iron Defence. So can I say that those really wanting to ban Scolipede, that if it were to ever come down to it, ban Scolipede + Iron Defence. I am not in personal support of this ban, but if any action is to be taken specifically nerfing Scolipede that is the best way to do it, as otherwise it is not that broken in the OU metagame.

 

[TheTMTrainerEffect]

With the lack of drive to look through all 86 pages of this thread at this exact moment, I don't know if this has been suggested yet.

Why not just put a cap of how long a baton chain can go for... (i.e. 2 pokemon can have baton pass on any given team, meaning a limit to how much you can chain, or something you can't chain more than 1-2 pokemon together at a time).

This prevents bans, permits people to use baton passes without being gimped for doing so, and permits people to attempt to read exactly what chain could be attempted.

 

[WebBowser]

You know, if it wasn't for the fact that I feel like I would probably be infracted for doing so, I would totally start CPing all the posts that I made explaining, in great detail, why scolipede is broken, even without a baton pass chain. So instead, I will post the highlights of my arguments.

Main argument 1: iron defense Scolipede is far more versitile then ninjask ever was. He can create switch in opportunities and support in front of mons that virtually no other mon can setup in front of. As evidence, I use the following replay.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114747286
This is another good example of just how varied the number of threats scoli can setup in the face of. Here we have scoli setting up in the face of trickscarf rotom, one of the game's top anti-leads and SD megazor, one of the game's most powerful priority users. Once he had his defense buffs, he passed to vaporeon, who was able to pull things off like take multiple volt-turns from rotom and scizor (one of which was a crit) while still having enough left to take a garchomp outrage (it only took 12%). At this point, he got a free swap to sylv, and then another free swap to espeon, and it was GG. This would not have been possible had they not gotten that trivial +6 defense, making them unapproachable from the physical side.

Main argument 2: iron defense Scolipede is broken even outside of BP. iron defense Scolipede would still be broken even if we had a BP cap of one, just because of the amount of support he provides to the team. With increased speed and defense, most pokemon become exceedingly difficult to revenge kill, meaning that under common battleground conditions, scolipede can make any of his teammates into a sweeper, or at least into a mon capable of poking significant holes into the enemy team. As shown by the below three replays.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114738298
I think this replay does great job of showcasing why scoli is so much better then ninjask. Here we have scolipede setting up multiple iron defenses in front of a mega gyarados, a very powerful OU threat. The massive defense boost combined with the speed boost was all sylv needed to not give a single eff about the entire rest of the team. Note how only 2 mons were used this entire battle. This supports my opinion that capping the number of BP users would do little to weaken the stupid amount of support iron defense scoli offers to the team, as sylveon didn't even need BP to sweep the enemy team. Heck, it didn't even really need to be sylveon, any decently bulky mon with subs would've sufficed.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114739328
This replay is borderline identical to the first, except replace megados with bisharp, another very powerful OU threat. Once again, only 2 mons were used, and once again, it really didn't even need to be sylveon on the receiving end, any decently bulky mon would've worked fine. Very little to say that has not already been said.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114744717

I think this shows that even quick pass scoli is pretty stupid. Once again we have scoli setting up in the face of a mega-dos, this time with taunt, not giving a single eff about anything it did. The defense boosts allowed lando-I to swap in without any difficulty what-so-ever, allowing it to easily threaten the megados out. It then ohko's aeigislash for absolutely free, with zero cost to the team. This lead allowed Jukain to make multiple momentum preserving sacrifices, ending with scoli being able to come in again and setup speed for espeon to sweep.

In previous posts I have shown calcs of prominate OU threats like ttar, non-LO thunderous, mega heracross, fire blast mega chomp and kyub failing to ohko scoli with their most powerful moves. To be able to provide support in the form of one or more defense boosts AND speed boosts in front of these threats is entirely unacceptable. I can re-post the calcs if needed.


TL;DR Ban iron defense scoli and ban ingrain smeargle

*edit*

corrected error in first sentence. Sorry for any confusion it may have caused.

 

[Shoot For Zero]

I don't think it's a good idea. Scol Is viable outside of BP, and (IIRC all sets run protect). And I think it drop to RU or UU.
Idk, I'm just against nerfing him to oblivion.

If a Poke has a broken set (BP chains break the game) Smogon has set a precedent of banning Pokes with sets that don't break the game in OU. Why? Every Poke can run a moveset that isn't broken. Rest/Sleep Talk/Toxic/Confusion Mewtwo isn't broken (and is even bad) and it's not in OU because a simple ban is better than a complex one. Why ban Speed Boost + Blaziken when we can ban all Blaziken? It's simpler. Removing Scolipede from the BP chain fixes the problem completely.
​

That wouldn't really solve the problem as first of all this means other Speed boost users like yanmega and Sharpedo can't use Substitute or Protect if they have the speed boost ability and those guys will be nerfed for no reason

Yanmega has a better set in Endure + Weakness Policy. It loses hard to Talonflame/Mega Pinsir in OU anyway. If Sharpedo doesn't have a Speed Boost up and the opp has a check out, Sharpedo was played improperly. And it still loses hard to Mega Pinsir and anything with Mach Punch (Nasty Plot Luc w/ Vacuum Wave anyone?). It's not a good late game sweeper in OU since the opp will save their priority for late game, and outside of Tflame, they shrug off Aqua Jet. Basically, using a turn to go +1 is a waste of time if you can't pass it, and Protect takes too much coverage away from Sharpedo in Poison Jab/Ice Fang/Beam. Protect is inferior to coverage moves (I won't talk about that high sack OHKO move Smogon lets it run) on Sharpedo.​

Second while Scolipede speeds up the process there can be ways around this ban like Agility Scizor and Zapdos.

Scolipede goes +3 in a turn; Scizor and Zapdos (its best def boost is Steel Wing) can only go +2.​

 

[matimooo]

People need to make up their mind if Baton Pass is too powerful all around, or just towards stall.

Everyone made their arguments around Baton Pass needing nerfed because it was too powerful against stall. Then I introduce a potng can handle bp potential fix to help stall against Baton Pass, and then we see arguments saying that this fix doesn't help against teams that aren't stall. :P

The problem isnt just stall. Nothing can handle bp rely, if u still wanna have a team that manages other teams.

 

[Mikasa]

To anyone who is arguing for a ban of Scolipede, why not Espeon?
Unless you can prove me that a Non-Espeon BP chain even with Scolipede is still broken I won't agree with you because banning Scolipede seems extremely arbitrary, so is banning Espeon, any of the two being banned will balance BP but how do we choose who to ban? And no, the argument that before Speed Boost Scolipede BP was manageable is not valid because if we had SB Scolipede last gen but no MB Espeon it would also be manageable last gen, the only thing that changes is that Espeon was released first but it is not relevant at all.

Also Move + Pokemon ban is a bad idea IMO because it open the floodgates for things like No Dark Void Darkray and No Seed Flare Shaymin-S.

 

[Durant]

Yanmega has a better set in Endure + Weakness Policy. It loses hard to Talonflame/Mega Pinsir in OU anyway. If Sharpedo doesn't have a Speed Boost up and the opp has a check out, Sharpedo was played improperly. And it still loses hard to Mega Pinsir and anything with Mach Punch (Nasty Plot Luc w/ Vacuum Wave anyone?). It's not a good late game sweeper in OU since the opp will save their priority for late game, and outside of Tflame, they shrug off Aqua Jet. Basically, using a turn to go +1 is a waste of time if you can't pass it, and Protect takes too much coverage away from Sharpedo in Poison Jab/Ice Fang/Beam. Protect is inferior to coverage moves (I won't talk about that high sack OHKO move Smogon lets it run) on Sharpedo.​

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I know using Substitute on Yanmega or Sharpedo isn't a great idea but it is more like they can't use those moves while they have nothing to do with Baton Pass at all. Sharpedo and Yanmega have been brought up multiple times in this thread because they have speed boost and so does Scolipede while we should leave those two pokemon alone. Also Sharpedo and Yanmega can use Protect to safely get to +1 speed but this is getting of topic.

More on topic though if we should nerf Baton Pass chains then in my opnion the best way would be to ban Espeon with stored power. One big part of a sweep after all the baton pass boosts is that Espeon rampages though teams with Stored Power ( Sylveon handles dark types ). However if there isn't stored power Espeon can't just power through unaware users like now. This way Quagsire and unaware Clefable also become much better at handling Baton Pass teams and seeing as how those are common sights on stall teams ( not 100% sure ) that will give stall an easier time against Baton Pass.

 

[Hclegend]

Also Move + Pokemon ban is a bad idea IMO because it open the floodgates for things like No Dark Void Darkray and No Seed Flare Shaymin-S.

Yeah, but they're in Ubers, which is the "No Holds Barred" tier (Besides things like Sleep Clause and Moody)
And you can get around Dark Void with Mega Mewtwo Y (Despite the obvious weakness) and Seed Flare Shaymin S... I think you meant Air Slash. Even then, no one uses Shaymin S anymore (a damn shame too :/)

 

[WebBowser]

To anyone who is arguing for a ban of Scolipede, why not Espeon?
Unless you can prove me that a Non-Espeon BP chain even with Scolipede is still broken I won't agree with you because banning Scolipede seems extremely arbitrary, so is banning Espeon, any of the two being banned will balance BP but how do we choose who to ban? And no, the argument that before Speed Boost Scolipede BP was manageable is not valid because if we had SB Scolipede last gen but no MB Espeon it would also be manageable last gen, the only thing that changes is that Espeon was released first but it is not relevant at all.

Also Move + Pokemon ban is a bad idea IMO because it open the floodgates for things like No Dark Void Darkray and No Seed Flare Shaymin-S.

I've given arguments for iron-defense scoli being broken even if it's the only mon with BP.

In this case, I am using the precedent of the ban of ingrain smeargle to support my position for banning iron defense scolipede as opposed to scolipede as a whole. Feel free to say that's a dumb reason to go for a complex ban over a simple pokemon ban, but that is my position.

 

[Shoot For Zero]

I know using Substitute on Yanmega or Sharpedo isn't a great idea but it is more like they can't use those moves while they have nothing to do with Baton Pass at all. Sharpedo and Yanmega have been brought up multiple times in this thread because they have speed boost and so does Scolipede while we should leave those two pokemon alone. Also Sharpedo and Yanmega can use Protect to safely get to +1 speed

Then Substitute + Protect + Baton Pass on a set. My point was it doesn't matter if those Yanmega/Sharpedo sets get nerfed because they were mediocre before.​

More on topic though if we should nerf Baton Pass chains then in my opnion the best way would be to ban Espeon with stored power. One big part of a sweep after all the baton pass boosts is that Espeon rampages though teams with Stored Power ( Sylveon handles dark types ). However if there isn't stored power Espeon can't just power through unaware users like now. This way Quagsire and unaware Clefable also become much better at handling Baton Pass teams and seeing as how those are common sights on stall teams ( not 100% sure ) that will give stall an easier time against Baton Pass.

I like it, Stored Power is gimmicky, but it doesn't really fix the problem; now BP player runs HP Grass for Quag and passes to something that can handle Clefable.
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On a separate note, I'd also like to say a team with 5 BP members is stronger than 6. 6 is gimmicky and leaves the entire team vulnerable once the chain breaks. I think 4 dedicated (Pokes w/ BP + stat boosters) BP members , with a 5th, 3 attack BP member is ideal.

 

[Mikasa]

Hclegend: What I meant was that if we ban Iron Defense on Scolipede (for example) next thing you know people will be asking why we don't ban Dark Void on Darkray and allow it in OU because without it he is not broken (also Seed Flare is what makes Skymin broken if he was to drop to OU, the major chance of dropping 2 stages of SP Defense is the main problem here).

WebBowser: Saw your reasoning and I don't agree because I feel like outside of Full BP he is by no means broken, the problem of Scolipede in BP is that in the right circunstance he passes +2 defenses and +2 speed to something that can increase it's special defense and special attack, have a STAB move of over 200 BP, is immune to status moves, taunt and phasing outside of Dragon Tail, and can Pass again if facing a counter. Scolipede passing speed and something else (be it attack or defense) to something like Mega Heracross is a competitive, viable and non-broken strategy, the broken thing happens when he passes his boosts to Espeon, and even so it is only a problem because Espeon can then pass to the very bulk passers Vaporeon and Sylveon.