I'm not seeing what the problem here is. Baton Pass is CLEARLY not broken outside of full Baton Pass chains. If your team is not prepared to deal with a 3 or less Baton Pass chain, then you need to change your team, because it is incredibly easy to do so. To nerf the insanly auto-win/auto-loss full Baton Pass chain teams we see frequently, all that has to be done is limit the number of Pokemon per team with Baton Pass to 3. You will not see full BP teams anymore, but Baton Pass will remain viable for single Pokemon stat passing, or dry passing as a U-Turn Substitute.
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
- Thread starter haunter
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The simple combination of Scolipede + Espeon can be enough to destroy a lot of unprepared teams. As a lot of memebers have suggested, Smeargle + Scolipede + Espeon is still super powerful.
I think limiting the number of Baton Passers is an easy fix yes, but a very bad fix. Sure we can say only 1 or only 2 baton passers and call it a day, but that eliminates the entire playstyle of Baton Pass chains. If that's what you want, I see, but I thought the general consensus was to nerf it and keep it as a viable tactic.
And that's what limiting the amount of Pokemon does. It makes it still viable without completely removing the novelty of it. If the combo of Scoli, Espeon, and Smeargle/Sylveon prove to still be as effective as they are now, I'm sure some changes can be done in the future.
I'm sure everyone, including Haunter and the OU council, know that banning one thing, or creating one clause won't remove the entire problem in one fell swoop.
But the point is to make it so that it's not nearly as big a problem as it is now. Limiting it to 3 'mons makes it so that you have to drop some important Pokes to make room for another one. Want to bring Smeargle? Well, Sylveon is pretty damn important to a BP chain too. Opening you up to possible Dragon Tails as long as Ingrain isn't up. Want to drop Smeargle for Sylveon? Well, now you can't use ingrain to remove the need of having to BP into Espeon.
3 seems like the best number to limit the exploitation of BP chains. But, that's just my opinion.
Only problem with that, Darkrai is WAY too powerful for OU, Dark Void or not. It can outspeed and OHKO many major OU threats. So I doubt that he'll ever be OU, even if Dark Void got banned (which I totally disagree with, what's next, ban Spore?)
As for Skymin, I really thought that it's Speed and Serene Grace Air Slash caused it to go Ubers, maybe Seed Flare helped with that. Honestly, banning Abilities that aren't completely broken (Moody) is a stupid idea and I think that banning Speed Boost would screw Scollipedes niche as a Quick Passer. (Fuck BP tho) and what would it do anyway? Besides make Blaziken OU again? (Whoch I doubt would last long due to Blazikenite) it seems like most people just want to ban Speed Boost to get
Edit: Actially, Yanmega and Sharpedo get Speed Boost too, I forgot that. And before you say I forgot Blaziken, he's Ubers and not relevant to this post. I mentioned it anyway
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so, first off i want to point out i'm an ubers player, never played XY OU, maybe never will (i've read some of the analyses so far, though). this is relevant because later on i will try to give some examples in this post that might not be the most accurate, but i believe you'll all get my point anyway.
i've been following this discussion for quite a while now and i feel it's necessary to say that i personally think it's a really really bad idea to limit BP chains to only 3 pokemon on one team (or whatever number for that matter). with the introduction of Magic Bounce Espeon in Gen V BP esablished itself as a very viable playstyle even in Ubers, and I can see where anyone is coming from when saying it was broken in OU, but for the sake of the (meta)game you'll have to keep the playstyle viable and if you limit teams to three baton passers it's just not a playstyle anymore. what do you do with your other 3 slots? sure, you might have some kind of special attacking receiver, but what about the other two slots?
if you try to nerf stall or hyper-offense instead, the first thing anyone thinks about is banning certain pokemon that make the playstyle broken. you can't just force people to suddenly run talonflame on their stall teams or chansey on their HO teams just because running 6 stall/HO pokes is broken. such a limit would completely destroy those playstyles, and the same thing is true for full baton pass teams. they're called full BP for a reason.
i do realise this would be a lot more complicated to apply to these playstyles, as there is a fine line between what's a defensive poke is and what not (as you can run either an offensive or defensive charizard x, for example) whereas it's pretty obvious what's usable in a BP chain and what is not. i think BP would lose all of it's flexibility when limiting it to even 5 pokes because you'll go 5-6 into every match because you can never bp into the poke that doesn't run Baton Pass (unless you're fully set up, of course).
i don't really want to offer any other solutions to you tbh, just wanted to put this out as i think you absolutely have to consider that any limit on BP members would destroy the playstyle. banning certain pokemon or abilities in conjunction with BP is the way to go imo. either way, i hope you guys will find a solution soon.
i've been following this discussion for quite a while now and i feel it's necessary to say that i personally think it's a really really bad idea to limit BP chains to only 3 pokemon on one team (or whatever number for that matter). with the introduction of Magic Bounce Espeon in Gen V BP esablished itself as a very viable playstyle even in Ubers, and I can see where anyone is coming from when saying it was broken in OU, but for the sake of the (meta)game you'll have to keep the playstyle viable and if you limit teams to three baton passers it's just not a playstyle anymore. what do you do with your other 3 slots? sure, you might have some kind of special attacking receiver, but what about the other two slots?
if you try to nerf stall or hyper-offense instead, the first thing anyone thinks about is banning certain pokemon that make the playstyle broken. you can't just force people to suddenly run talonflame on their stall teams or chansey on their HO teams just because running 6 stall/HO pokes is broken. such a limit would completely destroy those playstyles, and the same thing is true for full baton pass teams. they're called full BP for a reason.
i do realise this would be a lot more complicated to apply to these playstyles, as there is a fine line between what's a defensive poke is and what not (as you can run either an offensive or defensive charizard x, for example) whereas it's pretty obvious what's usable in a BP chain and what is not. i think BP would lose all of it's flexibility when limiting it to even 5 pokes because you'll go 5-6 into every match because you can never bp into the poke that doesn't run Baton Pass (unless you're fully set up, of course).
i don't really want to offer any other solutions to you tbh, just wanted to put this out as i think you absolutely have to consider that any limit on BP members would destroy the playstyle. banning certain pokemon or abilities in conjunction with BP is the way to go imo. either way, i hope you guys will find a solution soon.
You make a balanced team. Offensive teams in OU usually run a bulky pivot like Rotom-W, which can volt switch, or a Stealth Rocker. A lot of defensive teams run a sweeper (or 2) to clean up the opp's weakened Pokes late game and to put pressure on other defensive teams to make them use up their recovery moves faster.
Is Trick Room not a playstyle if only 3 Pokes on a team have Trick Room?
Is Trick Room not a playstyle if only 3 Pokes on a team have Trick Room?
Ur making sence, banning a poke is not the solution for this. compless ban or other restriction is, so the guy u quoted was talking sth that simply wont happen...
What he means is that baton pass in general will not be played anymore if 3 or even 4 pokes with bp max. The only way it can be used is by semi passing for instance scolipede espeon smeargle, but the basic idea and the gameplay will fall in general.
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That's not true at all. . .
You just remove big parts that make it a broken "Strategy". All you really need are 3 or 4 of the 6 for it to be an annoyance. Limiting it to 4 would make no difference, but limiting it to 3 would limit the teambuilding to the point to where you're losing one vital member in the BP chain. It won't make it obsolete. . . T_T
Granted, it shouldn't have existed in the first place.
The fact people resort to BP chains is ridiculous to me.
I dont think batton pass should be gotten rid of completely, just off smeagle or pokemon with magic bounce. I like pokemon because every oppenent has a different startergy, but taking out batton pass will just be one less option to go for, i think it should be balanced with other stratergys to make each battle as different and as fun as possible, but constantly getting spored then watching the other person raise its stats is not fun for anyone but the person using it. (i wanted to find an example with espeon aswell)
Subject 18 Edit: Removed YT video.
Subject 18 Edit: Removed YT video.
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No, then you're also limiting Dragon Dancers and the other Boosting 'Mons. . .
The best temporary solution would be limiting the amount of Pokes carrying BP.
Subject 18 Edit: Removed mentions of a delete posts.
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Baton Pass teams with 5 problem is still a problem like a team with 6 Baton Passers 8or even worse, because those pokemon usually pass to a powerful sweepers (and in particular, Mega Evolutions).
Baton pass teams with 4 pokemon works like a BP teams with 2 options of sweepers. It's more manageable.
Baton pass with 3 members is unviable. Less thsan 3 BP is only to do quick passing (viable on very few pokemon), or for faster pokemon weak to Pursuit that can afford that (basically Espeon).
The biug problem is this set:
Scolipede @ Mental Herb/Black Sludge
Ability: Speed boost
Nature: Careful/Calm/Timid/Jolly.
EV Spread: 252 HP/4 SpD/252 Spe, although there could be more with more EVs in Special Deense.
Moveset:
1. Baton Pass
2. Iron Defense
3. Substitute/Protect.
4. Protect/Swords Dance/Megahorn.
This is the real problem of Baton pass teams and this is the main new thing that has pushed Baton pass teams on attention to the top ladder. Espeon is an issue but without trivial speed boost and easy defense boost is manageable.
The other thing new to XY is Fairy types, and neither Sylveon, Mega Mawile or Mr Mime are a problem in those teams.
My proposed ban is:
Option 1: Baton Pass on Scolipede: It eliminates quick pass and only that.
Option 2: Speed Boost + Baton Pass: even though it means the full drop of Ninjask to be barely viable in PU/NEU. But allow the presence in the most important tiers with the presence of non-BP Scolipede, Yanmega and Sharpedo.
Baton pass teams with 4 pokemon works like a BP teams with 2 options of sweepers. It's more manageable.
Baton pass with 3 members is unviable. Less thsan 3 BP is only to do quick passing (viable on very few pokemon), or for faster pokemon weak to Pursuit that can afford that (basically Espeon).
The biug problem is this set:
Scolipede @ Mental Herb/Black Sludge
Ability: Speed boost
Nature: Careful/Calm/Timid/Jolly.
EV Spread: 252 HP/4 SpD/252 Spe, although there could be more with more EVs in Special Deense.
Moveset:
1. Baton Pass
2. Iron Defense
3. Substitute/Protect.
4. Protect/Swords Dance/Megahorn.
This is the real problem of Baton pass teams and this is the main new thing that has pushed Baton pass teams on attention to the top ladder. Espeon is an issue but without trivial speed boost and easy defense boost is manageable.
The other thing new to XY is Fairy types, and neither Sylveon, Mega Mawile or Mr Mime are a problem in those teams.
My proposed ban is:
Option 1: Baton Pass on Scolipede: It eliminates quick pass and only that.
Option 2: Speed Boost + Baton Pass: even though it means the full drop of Ninjask to be barely viable in PU/NEU. But allow the presence in the most important tiers with the presence of non-BP Scolipede, Yanmega and Sharpedo.
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I am not disputing that passing +2 defense and +1/2 speed to espeon is broken. In fact, as you have stated, passing +2 defense and +1/2 speed to espeon is much more broken then most recipients. I am in full agreement with you.
However, just because one recipient happens to be more broken then other recipients does not make other recipients not broken. I am quite sure that passing speed and defense to Kyogre would be far more broken then passing speed and defense to espeon, due simply to the sheer immediate power water spout provides and Kyogre's inherit bulk. That does not make passing to espeon not broken.
Likewise, just because passing speed and defense to espeon is more broken then most other receivers does not make other receivers not broken.
Furthermore, it is not only the support that scolipede provides that is broken, but the reliability in which he does so. Many mons become very powerful, even broken if given a shell pass, yet shell pass is not broken in OU. Why is this? Because the only two users of shell pass cannot shell pass with anything resembling reliability, meaning that if an opponent pulls off a shell pass, the player has screwed up, and we (as in, the competitive community in general) are ok with that. Scolipede, on the other hand, can setup iron defense and speed against a huge variety of the OU metagame, against offensive and defensive threats alike, and can only be stopped by a choice few mons like talonflame and phase leads. Offensive teams in particular are screwed over by scolipede because precious few offensive mons can ohko after an iron defense and even fewer can do so while outspeeding scoli at +1. It is a combination of the reliability as well as the magnitude of support that makes scolipede broken.
For comparison, let us take ninjask. Ninjask can do his job just as reliably as scolipede, which is pass speed. However, speed alone is not usually enough to break a mon as that mon is still vulnerable to being revenged through priority or by mons who can take the hit and ohko back. Scolipede, when successful, quite nearly removes priority from the table because at +2, even the most powerful priority will struggle to revenge any decent OU threat. It also removes most physical attacks from the table because most receivers are semi bulky mons with a middling to low speed tier, meaning they already have a non negligible defense stat that just got doubled. For a base comparison, Phys defensive scolipede has physical bulk akin to that of phys defensive deoxys-defense! Scolipede has mediocre defensive stats at best. Now lets give that same boost to a mon with non laughable bulk such as azumaril or gyarados. Scared yet?. Now lets up the anti again by giving it to a mon with good natural special bulk like sylveon or AV anything, and you have a nearly unkillable mon, ready to smack you in the face repeatedly if you lack a phaser. Do you now realize what scolipede does to offensive teams? There is no way ninjask could give his team this kind of support, so even though ninjask can do his thing just as reliably as scolipede, ninjask is not broken, scolipede is, because scolipede supports his team much better.
TL;DR Scolipede is not broken just for being reliable nor is he broken just for the level of support he brings to his team. He is broken due to being too reliable for the level of support he brings to his team.
Let me know if you find anything amiss with my argument. If you can, please elaborate why you believe quick pass scolipede to not be broken.
P.S. awesome user name btw :)
A full Baton Pass chain breaks the game. A full Baton Pass chain is 5 Pokes on a team with BP. A 6th BP member weakens the team. Ideally, the 6th member will be a mixed sweeper to take advantage of all the boosts; Lucario would work well. At 4 members BP is no less viable and has room for another useful Poke. Baton pass is nerfed with a limit at 3 BP members and crippled with a limit less than 3.
Baton Pass chains are balanced at 3. Scolipede is mandatory, then the player has to choose between either Smeargle or Espeon to keep the opp's counters (phazing and Taunt) from going through, so the opp doesn't have to run obscure counters that do nothing to the rest of the meta, and the BP player can bring their own Taunter or other counter to phazing.
A cap at 3 BP members on a team removes the formulaic nature of BP chains, so a player must play skillfully to succeed consistently with BP chains.
Baton Pass chains are balanced at 3. Scolipede is mandatory, then the player has to choose between either Smeargle or Espeon to keep the opp's counters (phazing and Taunt) from going through, so the opp doesn't have to run obscure counters that do nothing to the rest of the meta, and the BP player can bring their own Taunter or other counter to phazing.
A cap at 3 BP members on a team removes the formulaic nature of BP chains, so a player must play skillfully to succeed consistently with BP chains.
What we could do is ban Baton pass in conjunction with boosting moves because not all baton passing strategies are broken. It could be used as a way to scout what is going on like a U-turn or Volt Switch.
I'd recommend keeping it to one post, no one likes Double posts.
Back on track, I don't want to sound like a dick, but no.
The plan is not to make BP chains obsolete. It's to nerf it so that it isn't game breaking in most cases.
What you're essentially is saying is, if HO were broken, you should ban Dragon Dance + Physical attacker since that's the main mechanic of the play style.
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I guess I should have been more clear. As I have tried to point out in earlier posts:
There are three types of Baton Pass playstyles: 1. Quick Pass, 2. Chain Pass, 3. Defensive Pass. Google them if you want to know more :P
The over powered teams are Defensive Pass teams. Limiting to 3 Baton Passers eliminates the entire playstyle of Defensive Baton Pass and Chain Baton Pass.
So while its a simple solution, it negates two very common playstyles that have been around for generations. Nerfing is one thing, like removing scolipede, ingrain or stored power. But limiting the players is removing the entire playstyle . Its like saying you can only have 2 volt turn users. And then the entire playstyle build around using a bunch of strong volt turners is eliminated. (yes bad example, but Baton Pass is unique and hard to compare).
The point is, limiting players destroys the playstyle all together and you either want that or you don't. But people should be aware of that when they support it.
Sorry about the random post my phone is messing me around.
Any way, surly psy up (think that's how you spell it) is the perfect counter to Baton pas, copying all the pokemons stat changes, or does it not work if the stats were batoned past on, or does magic bounce stop it. It still agree it needs nerfing though...
Any way, surly psy up (think that's how you spell it) is the perfect counter to Baton pas, copying all the pokemons stat changes, or does it not work if the stats were batoned past on, or does magic bounce stop it. It still agree it needs nerfing though...
Says the one who just double posted. You can quote more than one post at a time ya know. So this post stays relevant, I'll just quote my other post from earlier :P
Honestly, banning Abilities that aren't completely broken (Moody) is a stupid idea and I think that banning Speed Boost would screw Scollipedes niche as a Quick Passer. (Fuck BP tho) and what would it do anyway? Besides make Blaziken OU again? (Whoch I doubt would last long due to Blazikenite) it seems like most people just want to ban Speed Boost to get Spicy Hot Wings Blaziken back into OU. Granted Speed Boost has shite all in terms of users (Scollipede, Ninjask, end list.) but it would seem a bit overkill, kinda like using a nuke to kill Hitler, sure it's definitely done, but the collateral damage would be immense. Anyway long tangent is long, don't ban Speed Boost. Kthnxbai
Edit: Actially, Yanmega and Sharpedo get Speed Boost too, I forgot that. And before you say I forgot Blaziken, he's Ubers and not relevant to this post. I mentioned it anyway
Edit: Actially, Yanmega and Sharpedo get Speed Boost too, I forgot that. And before you say I forgot Blaziken, he's Ubers and not relevant to this post. I mentioned it anyway
Edit: MuhFugginMoose Nah, your posts just got edited together by a Mod. They've done it with me before (Back when I was new :P)
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There was a post that was deleted after my first post, which caused me to put the two together, nice try though. :)
I've never seen speed boost as the problem Scolipede brings to the table, I've never understood that as an argument. Yes, it plays a huge part, but if anything, the Defense boost is more detrimental than anything. A quick bulky Baton Passer is scarier than a flimsy fast one. He just so happens to have both and he kills two birsds with one stone.
You know, I'd think for sure you'd go for Talonflame, since it gets priority Brave Bird AND Swords Dance (not to mention Priority Roost), but I guess weavile works too. Only difference with Weavile and other OU threats... actually wait there is no difference because they can all be countered without resorting to using garbage pokemon. Talonflame and Pinsir get countered by Rotom-W, Weavile gets OHKOed by priority from Conkeldurr, Lucario, Talonflame, Scizor, and some others I'm not running calcs for. Dragonite gets OHKO-ed through multiscale by powerful Ice attacks, and if you get hazards up can get taken down by a stray HP Ice. Landorus has Water and Ice weaknesses, and I think you get the point. These pokemon have more than 12 viable counters who can do well against other teams. Rotom-W may work at dealing with talonflame, but makes a good wall or offensive pokemon with good STAB coming off of decent attack, and respectable bulk and speed. So yeah, no comparison there.
The difference between dealing Baton Pass and other playstyles is that (as was said before me) relatively few pokemon can actually 'counter' baton pass, most of whom are dead weight against other teams. I highly suggest you take a closer look at the thread, since most of these 'counters' have been discussed, along with other reasons why baton pass should go that I can't remember because of how long this discussion has gotten.
EDIT: Here is a link to one of the posts that discusses a lot of the counter-strategies, in case you were interested
Baton Pass Espeon isn't broken on its own and has uses outside of BP chains. If you want to know more, you can read the thread you've just posted in.
While I do see the merit in baton pass as a standalone move, it unfortunately breaks the game too much to be allowed in the meta. I mean, full chains are IMPOSSIBLE to stop without Prankster Taunt, lucky crits, or Mold Breaker Roar (as if anything uses that!). Not to mention Ninjask is probably among the most hated pokes in the lower tiers for being probably the most MINDLESS thing in the game (Sub-->Protect-->Sub-->Protect etc.) that will either win games or make you start the game 5-6.
Frankly, while I admit baton pass has its place outside of BP chains (notably on pokes like Specs Sylveon, giving them a quasi-U-Turn), I do not see it being healthy remaining in the meta. The best solution is the simplest, IMO.
Frankly, while I admit baton pass has its place outside of BP chains (notably on pokes like Specs Sylveon, giving them a quasi-U-Turn), I do not see it being healthy remaining in the meta. The best solution is the simplest, IMO.
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