Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread

[Dreadfury]

Played a bit more BDSP OU after the Drizzle ban (thank you!) and I'm actually quite a fan of this meta now! I don't think it's necessarily perfect, but I haven't really found anything apart from maybe Latios particularly overbearing. I'm seeing a very surprising lack of mons like Salamence and Blaziken that should be amazing in theory (and probably are excellent in practice) and honestly can't say how good or bad they are as a result. Regardless, here are a few mons I've really seen putting in a lot of work lately:


Latios is, without a doubt, one of the best mons in OU at the moment. Its Speed tier is incredibly useful, its Draco Meteors and Psychics hurt like nothing else, and it has some pretty decent coverage options to boot. That said, nothing about Latios screams "this needs to get quickbanned immediately" at the moment; its 3-attacks set is amazing and Scarf is fantastic as well, but Latios feels a lot more linear because it can't run Trick or some of its coverage moves it loves in other metagames like Aura Sphere and Mystical Fire/HP Fire, so while it's incredibly strong and incredibly threatening its movepool issues hold it back just a tad in my eyes.


To nobody's surprise, Garchomp is an incredible mon. It's a good breaker and a good Scarfer, and it leverages a fantastic movepool alongside its good base stats to be incredibly threatening. I originally expected Chomp to be outright broken in this meta, but I'm pleasantly surprised to find that it really isn't broken whatsoever. It's incredibly deadly after a turn of setup, sure, but more offensive teams have plenty of tools to deal with it while Unaware Clefable anchors any defensive team nicely so Chomp doesn't just win for free. Outrage isn't at all a spammable move in this metagame, and as such Chomp has to rely on the much weaker Dragon Claw instead. Its Earthquake is amazing, of course, but it's always forced to choose between Yache Berry, Haban Berry, and Life Orb so if it wants to be able to handle threats that might revenge kill it or eat a hit and nail it with an Ice Beam it has to sacrifice a ton of damage to do so, and if it wants to maximize its breaking potential it gets picked off by priority (which this tier has a metric fuckton of) more easily instead. I think Garchomp has a very positive influence over this metagame currently.


I fucking wish we had this mon in SwSh, but I digress. Stallbreaker extraordinaire, with some legitimate offensive presence thanks to its great bulk/typing/Speed combination, and a mon that I firmly believe holds virtually any team archetype together. Almost any team is made immediately better by slapping Gliscor on it, which may be a problem later on, but at the moment I don't particularly mind it because it gets caught in the Dragon vs. Ice crossfire a fair bit. It can also check Chomp in an emergency, which just adds to the long list of things this mon contributes to a team. Easily a top 3-5 mon IMO, but I'm not entirely sure if it's the best mon in the tier.


I've been used to metagames that lacked Rapid Spin for a while now, so seeing Starmie come back with a vengeance and fulfill the same old role that made it iconic for generations is a bit cathartic. It's fantastic offensively, has a fantastic Speed tier, and has access to that now-buffed Rapid Spin for some additional pressure against weakened offensive teams since a +1 Starmie is basically impossible to outpace and OHKO. It can be bulky with Natural Cure if one wants it to last a while, or it can hit hard with a Life Orb and even Analytic to make sure nothing bar Blissey has any business eating a hit from it. It's a great mon that fills a role that I really missed from some of the other OU metagames we've had in the past.


Loom hasn't been talked about here enough, IMO, and I'm really struggling to see why. Both Poison Heal and Technician are fantastic abilities and Breloom once again abuses Spore to make the most out of its specialized movepool alongside those abilities. SubSeed+Focus Punch sets with Poison Heal have deceptive amounts of survivability while hitting like a fucking nuke, and it can always run more offensively-oriented Spore+Focus Punch sets as well as Spore+SD Technician sets as well. I would easily argue that Breloom is a top 5 mon in this metagame, and it's just so splashable to the point where, like Gliscor, it can fit on a laundry list of teams and put in plenty of work each game.

 

[alkazoth]

yo dawg, I think I played you on ladder as far as I remember I think your vileplume got 2hko by my play rough azumarill after belly drum but vileplume looks like a mon worth using

I probably did face you, because I remember a scenario where exactly that happened on ladder. Living Azu at +6 is huge since it no longer has Knock, and Azu seems like a top threat atm. Also Plume has stabs that threaten it, meaning Azu doesn't wanna stay in either.

While i do agree that Vileplume has probably a niche, i think it is worth mentioning it has to compete with Tangrowth. While Tangrowth doesn't check Belly Drum Azumarill and Scizor (tbh unsure if it really checks Scizor, can't it just SD forever if something is already asleep?) and cannot punish contact moves, it checks everything else you mentionned, and sporting a ground resistance and regenerator gives it a better matchup against stuff non-fire blast Garchomp, Crawdaunt, and choiced users in general. Tangrowth also has access to the currently super rare Knock Off.

I don't wanna diss Vileplume too much though, since it's a better Breloom check than Tang, which can sometimes be overwhelmed by Poison Heal Breloom (Tangrowth's sludge bomb doesn't do enough damages - which is why I think Aerial Ace on it is a fine tech on Tang if you want to threaten Breloom better), and anyone who played that meta can attest how annoying that mon can be.

Extremely good point, didn't realize Tang kept Knock in this meta. Regen is a very big advantage Tang has over Plume, and Plume isn't meant to wall Scizor, I moreso use it as a defensive pivot, meaning I switch it in, use Leech Seed or Sleep Powder depending on the move I'm running, and then switch it out. It's a good scout, because if another mon's already asleep and if it's offensive SD Sciz, it's generally gonna go for SD due to Plume's passivity against it. If it's defensive utility Sciz, it's generally gonna Uturn out into a mon that can break it. Plume can also alleviate damage output from Sciz with Strength Sap, since it can lower its attack and if it was already chipped, can restore itself back to full. Knowing all of this, I completely agree that it will have to compete with tang as a physically bulky grass on teams, but they each have MUs they are better at handling than the other (Tang: Daunt and non-Fire Blast Chomp, Plume: Loom and Azu).

Btw here are some relevant calcs
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 285-336 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 441-519 (109.1 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Ctann]

Has anybody else experimented with an anti-meta trick room team?

have come up with the following, after many iterations and battles. It still struggles against slower fatter teams, such as those with blissey and clefable, as they are good at wasting critical turns. It also sucks using 4 psychic types in a metagame where Gengar is king and Alakazam plays second fiddle.


Bronzong @ Kasib Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Gyro Ball
- Explosion
- Stealth Rock

Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
- Swords Dance

Torkoal @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Flamethrower
- Eruption
- Solar Beam
- Clear Smog

Exeggutor @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Explosion
- Wood Hammer
- Psychic

Slowbro @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Flamethrower
- Psychic
- Ice Beam

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

is absolutely essential on any viable trick room team, due to its ability to 2hko the meta. Swords dance on predicted switches into bulkier opponents.

makes a great rocker, and can explode after setting trick room.

is the best option I have found to deal with breloom, which any trick room team would otherwise struggle against. Wood hammer and explosion with max attack can hurt switch ins like blissey. Psychic is just for breloom, and is your best attack against Gengar.

is the speedy flex option, as it can rapid spin, and it is faster than a lot of the annoying Pokémon’s that threaten the team, like taunt skarmory, taunt Gliscor, Gengar, heatran and Latios.

the last two are really flex options, I’ve used due to its tankiness against fast physical threats and it’s ability to flame down scizor

is amazing and can 2hko blissey if it’s healthy .. but needs rapid spin support to be viable … and therefore this makes gameplay sometimes too predictable against the top 30 or so players

would love to see some ideas on what can be changed. Only crawdaunt is truly irreplaceable.. and bronzong/exeggutor a close second and third place behind. Currently threats like Blissey are a major thorn, because the only way you break it against a competent player, is through wearing down all the other 5 members with Crawdaunt, so there is a lot of pressure on crawdaunt against any top player.

any tips to reduce the crawdaunt bottleneck? It’s the only member that can currently reliably open up teams.

 

[serif_Aizawa]

Just wanted to post about a mon who IMO is severely underrated and not getting enough praise, which is Vileplume.

​

With Breloom being such a prominent threat, I felt like trying a mon who walls it dead to rights. I could've gone for Venusaur>Vileplume due to its superior physical bulk, but Plume has one thing Venu doesn't have: Strength Sap. People might not have realized that it kept strength sap in BDSP, which I can say is a fair reason for not noticing it, as without this one move I would've ignored it too. But this move allows for it to screw over top tier physical attackers, and its the reason why I prefer it over Venu for defensive roles. Physdef Plume is a great physical wall who prevents Loom and Azu from breaking teams open, and has useful utility on top of that. Here's the set I've been using:

@ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed / Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb
- Strength Sap​

Physdef Plume allows for it to check key physical threats, mainly Loom and Azu, but I've also used it to check mons like Gliscor, Dnite, Gyara, Chomp, Sciz, and more. Strength Sap is the MVP in this set, allowing for it to lower their attack while getting itself back to full, slowly weakening them. Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb are its STABs, both of which are important to have (Giga for grounds and waters and Sludge for Clef). The last move is interchangeable between Leech Seed and Sleep Powder. I personally prefer Leech Seed because it allows it to wear down Scizor over time and can also help in healing other teammates. However, Sleep Powder is great at nullifying a potential game-changing threat, allowing for much safer switch ins to teammates. Overall, a great defensive answer to some of the hardest hitting physical mons in the meta due to Strength Sap, its utility in Sleep Powder and Leech Seed, and its typing in Grass/Poison. Would highly recommend trying it out for yourself, because I truly do think it has lots of potential in the new meta (especially worth noting since it wasn't this good in the original DPP OU meta) and surprisingly isn't too hard to fit on teams since the mons it checks are extremely relevant to the meta. Would also love to see if people have other viable sets for it, because I'd like to try those out as well.

I've been using Vileplume for a bit and oh my god it's super good. Sleep Powder shuts down any potential switch ins and the thing just sits on Azumarill and Breloom while just trashing clef with STAB. Only thing that really sucks is no EQ resistance like Tangrowth but Strength Sap is genuinely bonkers.

Also, I wonder, might this little fella see a potential niche in OU?

Ariados @ Focus Sash
Ability: Insomnia
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sticky Web
- Toxic Spikes
- Toxic Thread
- Megahorn

Other than Smeargle it's the only Pokemon in the game with Toxic Thread, and it can also leverage this with new deadly hazards like Sticky Web and Toxic Spikes. It's also immune to any sleep attempts from Roserade and in return possesses a very real chance to OHKO it with Megahorn and similarly trashing leads like Azelf:

252+ Atk Ariados Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 237-280 (90.8 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Even absolute max defense Cresselia just gets dumpstered:

252+ Atk Ariados Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 212-252 (47.7 - 56.7%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Unfortunately it's still Ariados so it has to leverage its godawful base stats.. Hell, Megahorn doesn't even 2HKO Aerodactyl. But I think this might be an enterprising choice for role compression with both webs and toxic spikes, though otherwise it's outclassed by Smeargle and you can probably live with just one or the other by using an overall better Pokemon like Roserade, Nidoqueen, or even Masquerain (see my last post)

Either that or it'll just drop to Untiered again, which wouldn't be surprising. Ubers niche is gone thanks to Dark Void being nerfed and Arceus presumably existing in the format.

 

[Bygonera]

OU isn't even finalized yet and already quickbanning things. Literally day 2/3.

It's hard to say who exactly should have the final say in big decisions like this or how long exactly one should let a "problem" persist in seeking a solution before it's "dealt with", but ivory tower approaches such as this with the hastiness it had + limited data and reasoning centered around that limited data are rarely responsible.

There were multiple aspects of Drizzle Rain Teams' power, as everyone knows, that made it as "oppressive" and dominant as it was, yet there was no time given to try to break it down into identifiable chunks to try to tease out what all counterplay there actually could be to it. And now there will likely not be a chance to since Drizzle has been banned wholesale. Although Rain Dance is still allowed, the nature of that rain setting disincentivizes experimenting too much further with Rain teams, which will exacerbate the lack of data issue and therefore leave the question not quite settled into the future of whether this decision was actually necessary and justified.

 

[Patar136]

I would like to post a mon that is both challenging to use, but also very satisfying. A mon that will make the Lati twins run away after than a Scizor staring down Ho-oh.

Murkrow's evolved form and a fan favorite Sinnoh evolution: Honchkrow.

Godfather (Honchkrow) (M) @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Brave Bird
- Night Slash/Foul Play
- Roost/Thunder Wave/Taunt/Defog

For hyper offense teams, Honchkrow is here to avenge those that fell before the mons it checks as a late game cleaner. That said, Honchkrow can also serve as an anti-lead to Azelf and other psychic mons, just to remind them that this boss is here to ruin their day. He is not for the faint of heart and using him requires prediction and a team that will give it every possible chance to come in and stack boosts. Sucker Punch is the premier move as it allows this crime lord to carve through mons locked into choice moves. The primary targets are none other than the Lati twins and dangerous psychic types that go down hard.

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 382-452 (126.9 - 150.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 351-413 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Claydol: 307-361 (95 - 111.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 257-304 (70.6 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 320-377 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 382-452 (96.9 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 424-502 (119.7 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azelf through Reflect: 212-251 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Uxie: 242-283 (68.3 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And all of those are calculated without a boost from Moxie. With one of those, the above targets get eliminated even more easily. If the opponent tries to switch out, that is where the other moves come into play. Want to destroy Infernape, Breloom, Venomoth, or anything that can't take a STAB flying move, just spam Brave Bird. If you are able to predict a switch, the go to move to use is Night Slash for the extra crit chance though Foul Play can do more damage in certain situations. You should always go for Night Slash if you can because a Latias might use roost or defog in an attempt to stall out those PP for Sucker Punch. What Honchkrow despises is the loss of Superpower which means that there are certain OU mons such as Empoleon, Magnezone and especially Heatran that Honchkrow is unable to hurt as badly as it wants. That said, the crime boss LOVES how Metagross, Jirachi and Bronzong are new targets for its dark moves. The last move slot is to provide extra support for your team if you think that you will be calling Honchkrow back or if it's primary targets are defeated and is widely left to choice. Roost can be used on predicted switches to get HP back, especially if you use Life Orb, making it the preferred choice. Thunder Wave provides more opportunities to spam Night Slash and hope for a Moxie boost. Moxie is the preferred ability for obvious reasons and it offers a strong power boost should you manage to get Honchkrow in after its checks have been crippled or eliminated outright. Taunt can be used to stop a predicted wall from coming in, though due to Honchkrow's lowered speed it is likely to get taunted first. If you lack a defog mon, Honchkrow is capable of using the move especially if your HO team needs support though it is preferable that you have one of your teammates do this for the Head Honcho rather than the other way around.

The faults with Honchkrow come down to two core features: it's relative frailty and lower than desired speed for an OU mon. It can't afford to go scarfed as much as it would wish to replicate Salamence's set because of how a player needs to have their prediction game on point. Nor can it go banded for even more power for similar reasons. Leftovers can be substituted in place of Life Orb to provide slightly more longevity but Life Orb provides the power boost that Honchkrow desires. It's frailty is also a limiting factor which means that you can only bring this bird in on predicted psychic moves or ground moves. It also doesn't resist any priority other than an opposing Sucker Punch which means it can get picked off from repeated hits. Another issue is that even with repeated boosts, the presence of fighting types means that Sucker Punch isn't always as powerful as other priority moves.

In the right hands, Honchkrow is an offensive powerhouse and it's niche in OU is worth looking into for HO teams and those that need a strong revenge killer for the Lati twins. Just make sure to compensate for its vulnerability to faster priority and you'll have a powerful dark type on your hands.

 

[Brobbee]

My thoughts on op mons from playing for a few hours:

Manaphy: This mon has no switch-ins after a tail glow. A simple set of Tail Glow, Surf, Energy Ball, and Ice Beam just ruins anything not named Mantine. Even Mantine can be done in by skill swap though. I thought Drizzle would solve the issue of +3 Surf Spam but apparently not, this mon needs to go.

Blaziken: In the sun this thing OHKO's Gliscor, DEVENSIVE DONPHAN, and Azumarill with Flare Blitz, and 2HKO's Slowbro. Essentially with the support of Rotom-Mow or Torkoal this mon has no counters. If you slap on Shadow Claw over Detect you suddenly OHKO the Lati Twins and do 80% to Slowbro. Not to mention that the common stall teams packing unaware Clefable get ruined by Poison Jab. This unhealthy level of power is reminiscent of Gen V Blaziken,this Blaziken deserves the same treatment.

Latios: This thing is Uber in Gen IV for a reason, get it out of here. (Draco Meteor go brrrrrrrrr)

Garchomp: Garchomp was Uber in Gen IV, and I wouldn't be opposed to sending it back up there. Now that the overall speed in the metagame has waned, Garchomp is suddenly blazing fast. (Pun Intended) The addition of Fairy types isn't as bad as one would imagine since they don't lock Chomp into Outrage and Poison Jab handles them nicely. The only thing that can safely revenge kill Yache Berry Chomp is Weavile since Mamoswine gets rekt by Stone Edge. However Weavile can be dispatched by any Mach-Punch in the Tier aside from Ledian's. Chomp is extremely powerful and will most likely be sent back to Ubers.

Salamence: Speaking of Uber in Gen IV... Salamence to me is very suspect to me. Mence retained an excellent movepool despite the loss of Dual Wingbeat. After Garchomp, Manaphy, and Latios leave the Tier I won't be surprised if Mence's Dragon Dance antics pose problems for the Metagame. I don't think Mence is a threat to the Metagame currently, but it should be watched very closely to prevent others from going with it. (Poor Latias)

 

[Liquidocelot]

I would like to post a mon that is both challenging to use, but also very satisfying. A mon that will make the Lati twins run away after than a Scizor staring down Ho-oh.

Murkrow's evolved form and a fan favorite Sinnoh evolution: Honchkrow.

Godfather (Honchkrow) (M) @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Brave Bird
- Night Slash/Foul Play
- Roost/Thunder Wave/Taunt/Defog

For hyper offense teams, Honchkrow is here to avenge those that fell before the mons it checks as a late game cleaner. That said, Honchkrow can also serve as an anti-lead to Azelf and other psychic mons, just to remind them that this boss is here to ruin their day. He is not for the faint of heart and using him requires prediction and a team that will give it every possible chance to come in and stack boosts. Sucker Punch is the premier move as it allows this crime lord to carve through mons locked into choice moves. The primary targets are none other than the Lati twins and dangerous psychic types that go down hard.

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 382-452 (126.9 - 150.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 351-413 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Claydol: 307-361 (95 - 111.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 257-304 (70.6 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 320-377 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 382-452 (96.9 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 424-502 (119.7 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azelf through Reflect: 212-251 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Uxie: 242-283 (68.3 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And all of those are calculated without a boost from Moxie. With one of those, the above targets get eliminated even more easily. If the opponent tries to switch out, that is where the other moves come into play. Want to destroy Infernape, Breloom, Venomoth, or anything that can't take a STAB flying move, just spam Brave Bird. If you are able to predict a switch, the go to move to use is Night Slash for the extra crit chance though Foul Play can do more damage in certain situations. You should always go for Night Slash if you can because a Latias might use roost or defog in an attempt to stall out those PP for Sucker Punch. What Honchkrow despises is the loss of Superpower which means that there are certain OU mons such as Empoleon, Magnezone and especially Heatran that Honchkrow is unable to hurt as badly as it wants. That said, the crime boss LOVES how Metagross, Jirachi and Bronzong are new targets for its dark moves. The last move slot is to provide extra support for your team if you think that you will be calling Honchkrow back or if it's primary targets are defeated and is widely left to choice. Roost can be used on predicted switches to get HP back, especially if you use Life Orb, making it the preferred choice. Thunder Wave provides more opportunities to spam Night Slash and hope for a Moxie boost. Moxie is the preferred ability for obvious reasons and it offers a strong power boost should you manage to get Honchkrow in after its checks have been crippled or eliminated outright. Taunt can be used to stop a predicted wall from coming in, though due to Honchkrow's lowered speed it is likely to get taunted first. If you lack a defog mon, Honchkrow is capable of using the move especially if your HO team needs support though it is preferable that you have one of your teammates do this for the Head Honcho rather than the other way around.

The faults with Honchkrow come down to two core features: it's relative frailty and lower than desired speed for an OU mon. It can't afford to go scarfed as much as it would wish to replicate Salamence's set because of how a player needs to have their prediction game on point. Nor can it go banded for even more power for similar reasons. Leftovers can be substituted in place of Life Orb to provide slightly more longevity but Life Orb provides the power boost that Honchkrow desires. It's frailty is also a limiting factor which means that you can only bring this bird in on predicted psychic moves or ground moves. It also doesn't resist any priority other than an opposing Sucker Punch which means it can get picked off from repeated hits. Another issue is that even with repeated boosts, the presence of fighting types means that Sucker Punch isn't always as powerful as other priority moves.

In the right hands, Honchkrow is an offensive powerhouse and it's niche in OU is worth looking into for HO teams and those that need a strong revenge killer for the Lati twins. Just make sure to compensate for its vulnerability to faster priority and you'll have a powerful dark type on your hands.

I agree Honchkrow is pretty decent in this meta. I've been using a sub, roost Sucker punch, Drill peck set to some success. Which if you get under a sub and start snowballing, there's no stopping you.

 

[dongo22]

howdy y'all i wanted to post about a couple of guys that i've been using lately that i think are good picks given the meta rn. i’m gonna be posting periodically as i try stuff out on the ladder.

big dumb scorpion
Drapion​

big dumb scorpion guy is here in the reduced meta and i think he’s got some potential. to me, i think drapion fits best in your team as a special defense wall to counter stall and special attackers in general in the meta right now. to add, i think there's some potential for an offensive support set, but there are other choices that can do what drapion would do in that role better. here’s some pros and cons:

pros

• poison/dark is insanely good typing and only has one weakness in ground. this is further exacerbated in a meta with pokémon like starmie, clefable, slowbro, breloom, alakazam and gengar to name a few
• has access to two moves that a lot of pokémon lost: knock off and toxic
• offers decent utility and some coverage with moves like whirlwind/roar, taunt, torment, confuse ray, poison jab, earthquake and x-scissor
• base stats aren’t shabby either: 90 Atk, 110 Def (!!!), and 95 Spe allow it to hit decently without investment, and its speed tier can let it outspeed certain pokémon if invested
• is a giant fucking scorpion with a mustache

cons

• main con is that you’re pretty much only picking up drapion for it’s typing. a lot of the roles that it fits into can be done better by other pokémon, but poison/dark is too good to pass up against popular pokémon in the tier
• while it can counter a lot of pokémon through its typing, the pokémon it counters hit specially. with a base 70 HP and 75 SpD it’s not gonna be tanking many hits without investment and recovery
• movepool is very lackluster and is subsequently pretty one dimensional. this might not be the biggest issue given that the meta has been reduced, but it’s still important to note
• garchomp and gliscor exist

sets
Drapion @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Taunt/Whirlwind
- Toxic
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab/Earthquake/Taunt

this is a big special defense wall set. this is the main counter set for pokémon that hit specially. think stuff like slowbro/clefable, who are tanky and can wear you down with moves like scald/moonblast but are defeated by toxic/poison jab respectively, or starmie/alakazam/gengar who you can safely tank hits from and hit back harder. check out some of the damage calcs below for what i'm talking about. in terms of moves, generally your bread and butter attacking moves are poison jab and knock off, with knock off being better for dealing with a dark type weakness. the choice of your utility moves is up to you, but toxic is mandatory to stop pokémon that are tanky like slowbro. one small thing to note about this set is that you can do 92 HP / 164 Def / 252 SpD if you want to have more of a split defense that allows you to tank hits relatively fine from pokémon like breloom. this option is for sure a tech option against certain teams.

damage calcs

alakazam
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 152-179 (44.1 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 166-196 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 101-120 (29.3 - 34.8%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 110-131 (31.9 - 38%) -- 94.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 51-60 (14.8 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 55-65 (15.9 - 18.8%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 360-426 (143.4 - 169.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

starmie
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 169-200 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 92-109 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- 31.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 92-109 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- 31.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 218-260 (83.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

slowbro
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 76-90 (22 - 26.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

clefable
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 85-102 (24.7 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Drapion Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Clefable: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

gengar
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 113-134 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- 8.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 124-147 (36 - 42.7%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 57-67 (16.5 - 19.4%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 62-73 (18 - 21.2%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Gengar: 324-384 (124.1 - 147.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Drapion @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Taunt/Torment/Whirlwind
- Toxic/Taunt
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab/Earthquake

this set is a big physical wall set. this set primarily works to beat pokémon like breloom, and it also provides a solid physical wall for neutral hits as well. i want to mention that i don't think this is nearly drapion's best set, but it can be a good niche pick if you're looking for something to stop breloom and other mons like it. here's some damage numbers to give you some idea of what i mean:

damage calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drapion: 109-130 (31.6 - 37.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drapion: 99-120 (28.7 - 34.8%) -- approx. 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drapion: 165-200 (47.9 - 58.1%) -- approx. 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Drapion Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 192-228 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Drapion Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 192-228 (73.5 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

try this guy out and let me know what y'all think! in terms of what he pairs well with, i've found a lot of success with pokémon that are bulky attackers. think stuff like gliscor, or suicune for example that have a hard time dealing with walls or attackers that can outpace them. like i said earlier, i'm going to be posting more about some pokémon that i think have some use in the meta, and i'm going to start doing tests on pokémon like espeon, abomasnow, hitmonlee, and more!

 

[Wizarus]

Blaziken in the sun is ridiculous, and it takes us right back to Gen 5 where Slowbro, Quagsire, and Hippowdon is the only thing switching into this thing. And thats only if your opponent isn't running the cheeky mixed set, which is now more viable now that Drizzle is banned and Blaziken can run CC over HJK. I know it's only been a few days since release but Blaziken is pretty over the top right now.

 

[zakurenai]

Blaziken in the sun is ridiculous, and it takes us right back to Gen 5 where Slowbro, Quagsire, and Hippowdon is the only thing switching into this thing. And thats only if your opponent isn't running the cheeky mixed set, which is now more viable now that Drizzle is banned and Blaziken can run CC over HJK. I know it's only been a few days since release but Blaziken is pretty over the top right now.

That's what I said in my previous post. It doesn't make sense to ban Drizzle but leave the other auto-weathers alone. Now that auto-Rain counterplay is gone, auto-Sun can run wild. Why everyone pretends like I'm speaking another language is beyond me.

 

[Morkal]

Starmie is undoubtedly one of the best spinners, with it hard to spinblock due to a powerful Hydro Pump being blasted at any Ghost switch-ins. But I found one Ghost type to be very useful for attempting to stop Starmie in its tracks. Mismagius is bulky enough to combat Starmie and attempt to kill it/force it out.

Mismagius @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 104 HP / 236 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball / Mystical Fire / Power Gem

This Mismagius acts as a Scarfer, and is surprisingly strong too. The 104 HP EVs guarantees Mismagius to survive a Life Orb Analytic Hydro Pump from Starmie. With it being Scarf, it can OHKO Starmie with Shadow Ball. Also with the Scarf, it is EVed to outspeed a Jolly Gyarados at +1 what poor soul is using Jolly Gyarados? The last move is filler, but I like Energy Ball for Quagsire/Gastrodon.

Mismagius @ Custap Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 104 HP / 160 SpA / 244 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball / Dazzling Gleam / Thunderbolt / Mystical Fire / Power Gem

Now THIS Mismagius set has the same function as the above set, but it opts for Custap Berry, working as a one-time outspeed for Starmie. Unlike the above set, it can combat Blissey via Taunt and Pain Split. The speed is to outspeed base 90s BUT that unfortunately leaves Mismagius a very slim 4% chance to NOT OHKO Starmie if it was not Life Orb. Taking 4 of the HP EVs was too risky, as Starmie has a small chance to OHKO you. Again the last move is filler depending on what you want for your team.

Despite Gengar being the better offensive Ghost option in the tier I find Mismagius to have a small niche on teams that have many hazards to stop mons from spinning them away.

It's also important to note that Mismagius kept Levitate while Gengar still only has Cursed Body, which means that Mismagius is immune to Spikes / T-Spikes / Sticky Web. I love Mismagius, I feel it's been an extremely slept on Pokemon ever since it was introduced.

 

[Walletinspector62]

Hazard removal in general is super weird in this metagame. There’s a severe lack of good foggers besides like the rotom forms maybe? So pretty much every team either relies on nothing or spin. There are quite a few good spinners this gen thankfully, with tentacruel starmie forretress Donphan all being viable hazard removal options. There’s p much only one good spin blocker tho in gengar, which makes that pool feel very limited.

 

[Nalorium]

Beware players, this dragonfly of 1.9M is roaming around, do not forget to put on your anti-dragonfly medicine? (does that even exists) and if you are going to leave your house, do it carefully.

Ok so jokes aside, It had been a couple of hours since the tier had been released and the ladder was infested with fats and stalls, I tried to use several mons to break them but they all faltered vs something in particular, and they weren't even fun to use. When I ran into Yanmega and discovered that he would be a great threat to absolutely all BO's, Fats and various stalls. With tinded lens he is able to hit almost anything neutrally and if not, he does it with air slash in addition to providing momentum with u-turn. It is a great mon when destroying the most used BO's like Ox. I always pair it with Skarmory or some other spike user in my teams to chip blissey or Heatran even more. Yanmega provides such pressure to this kind of teams that it makes it easier for Pokemons like Latios to destroy opp's team.

Tony Montana (Yanmega) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- U-turn
- Giga Drain

This is the set I've been using lately, it goes great in teams that appreciate its offensive presence and is a great teammate for pokemons like skarmory, latios, manaphy, gengar among others.

PD: ban manaphy

 

[VannAccessible]

Weighing in on the Drizzle quick ban, I think it was a good call. Disregarding Manaphy for a second, who is absolutely broken independently of Drizzle, it would be silly to ignore how overbearing the playstyle was as a whole, with all the outrageously strong and fast breakers in Kingdra, Ludicolo and Kabutos. We know you can’t respond to them offensively, besides Scarf Gardevoir and maybe Breloom, both of whom can’t switch in. So who are you gonna wall all these guys with?! Mantine?! Vileplume? Shedninja? Can’t be done, at least consistently, especially when you factor in hazard chip.

Pivoting back to Manaphy, it is still beyond broken with Screens support, and can screw over its only two checks with Skill Swap. After it gets quickbanned or suspect tested and THEN banned, if you still don’t think Drizzle was also broken, we could also retest Drizzle post Manaphy-ban. But I suspect the overwhelming nature of rain would still prove too much for the meta.

Has anybody else experimented with an anti-meta trick room team?

have come up with the following, after many iterations and battles. It still struggles against slower fatter teams, such as those with blissey and clefable, as they are good at wasting critical turns. It also sucks using 4 psychic types in a metagame where Gengar is king and Alakazam plays second fiddle.


Bronzong @ Kasib Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Gyro Ball
- Explosion
- Stealth Rock

Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
- Swords Dance

Torkoal @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Flamethrower
- Eruption
- Solar Beam
- Clear Smog

Exeggutor @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Explosion
- Wood Hammer
- Psychic

Slowbro @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Flamethrower
- Psychic
- Ice Beam

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

is absolutely essential on any viable trick room team, due to its ability to 2hko the meta. Swords dance on predicted switches into bulkier opponents.

makes a great rocker, and can explode after setting trick room.

is the best option I have found to deal with breloom, which any trick room team would otherwise struggle against. Wood hammer and explosion with max attack can hurt switch ins like blissey. Psychic is just for breloom, and is your best attack against Gengar.

is the speedy flex option, as it can rapid spin, and it is faster than a lot of the annoying Pokémon’s that threaten the team, like taunt skarmory, taunt Gliscor, Gengar, heatran and Latios.

the last two are really flex options, I’ve used due to its tankiness against fast physical threats and it’s ability to flame down scizor

is amazing and can 2hko blissey if it’s healthy .. but needs rapid spin support to be viable … and therefore this makes gameplay sometimes too predictable against the top 30 or so players

would love to see some ideas on what can be changed. Only crawdaunt is truly irreplaceable.. and bronzong/exeggutor a close second and third place behind. Currently threats like Blissey are a major thorn, because the only way you break it against a competent player, is through wearing down all the other 5 members with Crawdaunt, so there is a lot of pressure on crawdaunt against any top player.

any tips to reduce the crawdaunt bottleneck? It’s the only member that can currently reliably open up teams.

Right here man!

I’ve been running TR, as it’s been my favorite HO archetype for forever. I love how the style allows for creative use of more seldom seen mons, especially ones that can penetrate the general trends of the meta.

It’s usually written off as a gimmick, but that’s because there are plenty of ways of countering it. These weaknesses need to be taken into account for anything close to consistent. Not to be rude, but at a quick glance, your version does indeed look to serve as an prime example of the problems Trick Room teams can struggle with.

The biggest issues I see with your team are:

No Mental Herb, so Taunt prevents any attempt at TR set up

Magma Storm Heatran traps/kills all your TR setters

Kasib Executor is a poor answer to Gengar when it still has poison STAB

Crawdaunt while great in TR, alongside Torkoal’s sun has poor synergy with Crawdaunt’s water STABs limiting its breaking potential

TOGEKISS. FLINCHES.

No way to deal with Substitute or Protect wastes all your TR turns if you do manage to get it up

And then a general weakness to hazards and Dragon spam and Screens HO, which are already dominant in this meta.

I will say, you’re pretty well off against priority and Spore though!

———

My variant I’ve been playing with the last week has proven quite formidable against DragMag, Screens HO, Sun, but struggles more against Balance and full Stall.

I’m retooling still, but so far I’ve peaked at 1450ish on the ladder with my full TR squad. To this point, there’s always something my team is weak to, creating very polarizing matchups in every case. I think the style has potential though. It’s my favorite for a reason.

 

[Ctann]

Thanks for the reply VannAccessible

do you have suggestions for Pokémon’s to use?

have experimented with and whilst it can 2hko the meta with its stabs, it’s not fun missing headsmash 20% of the time, as it often costs games when you get a 64% chance to 2hko the bulkiest resists. It also adds more to the fighting weakness .. but at least can force out clefable!

dragmag hasn’t been an issue at all, they tend to be horrible against trick room! Rarely lose to those types of teams, it’s generally the slower bulkier teams that spam protect/substitute as you mentioned.

peak so far is about 1550, have been modifying it a lot, current iteration is using chople as a shadow ball immunity, tho without eviolite it’s bulk is really lacking, and choosing between recover or magic coat is a tough decision.

the anti synergy of crawdaunt and torkoal , combined with torkoals rock weakness meant that only crawdaunt still makes the cut. It’s by far the most required member of a BDSP trick room team!

—-



I think you can reliably beat EVERY offensive team with a simple semi-trick room team with just Bronzong and crawdaunt. Your other 4 can be S or A tier threats (with a switch in for breloom and azumarill)… offensive teams can simply not switch in on crawdaunt in trick room, so it usually bets at least 2 KOs and busts a team wide open.

the reason it would work so well is because bronzong can be EV optimised to switch into every dragon, and set up SR + TR (or just TR) before exploding. Offensive teams don’t have the counterplay to cope with that, and in the top 30 or so ELO, everyone knows what to expect , so your team needs consistency

 

[100 Hoes Kaido]

The negatives:
I feel Smogon went the wrong way about the bans. I understand that there are differences between DPPt OU and this, but there are more similarities between the two, than gen 5, 6, 7 and 8, especially 8, so yeah, we ended up unbanning stuff like Speed Boost Blaziken, Latios, Manaphy, Drizzle +SSwim, Garchomp etc, but those were on account of being different metagames. We should have started with DPPt ou’s banlist, and from there, see if the Metagame could adapt to their pressure just fine, or not. Kinda similar to the suspect test Shoddy had after Platinum came out. Like, what makes Latios OU here and Uber in DPPt? The fact that you no longer have to take into account sand damage every single turn? Jirachi, a solid check of it, losing its strongest asset in Iron Head? Tyranitar and Weavile no longer having Pursuit? Webs allowing Latios to outspeed several threats that normally would be considered dangerous to it, such as scarftar, orbmie, scarfrachi, scarfchomp and so on? Clefable being a fairy, yes, while also losing its best recovery? Azumarill is a fairy now, yes, but Latios still has access to Tbolt, this was rash, don’t even get me started on Manaphy. And Slowbro? Pretty much mandatory for all kinds of teams except offense, unless they want to get murdered by Blaziken, and the “solution” for offense is using Aqua Jet Azumarill.

The positives: This was a very fun nostalgic trip, truth be told, when japanese BW was playable in PO with team preview ( a function that already existed in gen 4, thanks to PBR mind you) I always wanted to have it in DPPt, unpopular opinion, but I always felt that the lead metagame in getting Stealth Rocks up with suicide leads, or to spam a debilitating move right off the bat with stuff like specstran, Machamp, Explosion in general to be debilitating to the potential gameplans could have, so seeing Team Preview here, to check the evolution of lead picking, rather than a set in stone lead will be interesting. For as much as I detest gen 5-8 for their continuous power creep, I cannot deny that Gamefreak during the years after Gen 4, has made several fixes to luck factors that are extremely helpful, such as confusion nerf, the critical hit nerf, and paralysis nerf. Parafusion teams were actually quite popular in 2008-2009, but I still think paralysis can work just fine.
Jirachi lost Iron Head, and it’s basically forced to a pre-platinum role, this change I suppose, is welcomed by some, my mind has that ‘mon and set engraved, like it’s the essence of DPPt, so it does feel quite strange.
You also don’t realise how important something is, unless you no longer have it, Rotom-A, I mean, the various Rotom forms, no longer have ghost types, that’s the premier antispinner out of the equation, now it’s either frail stuff like Gengar, or outright trashfire like Spiritomb, or Dusknoir. Technically, there’s also Defog, so I feel stall will have to do something different, and offense in the long run will stop using suicide rocks dedicated ‘mons.
Nasty Plot Alakazam is a deceptively dangerous lategame sweeper, it sorta gives me Agility Empoleon vibes, type is worse, I mean, let’s not kid ourselves, psychic is trash, everyone who has psychic as a type, would gladly trade it for a fairy type, unless they already have it, so psychic just becomes a coverage for Toxa, but it’s one of those situations where a ‘mon just works DESPITE being psychic, rather than because it’s psychic, Magic Guard means it doesn’t have to care about entry hazards and sand, you are almost guaranteed to get a Nasty Plot if you want, you’re fast without needing a set up move like Agility, so you can use Alakazam in mid game to revenge kill/sending it in with volturn against stuff and then sweep lategame, the opponent cannot punish you, Pursuit zor/weavile ain’t there. Also, both Hydro pump and Focus Blast are stupid moves.
There are actual reasons to use Venusaur, one could argue, with bd Azuma on the rise, I’m interested to see how it fares, speaking of Azuma, lots of priority, kinda like in BW2 at the end of its active cycle, with those spike stacking custapmory, Scizor, Dragonite, Breloom, Lucario, Crawdaunt etc, though again, we got Defog here, and unlike XY, Defiant Bisharp cannot punish it

 

[Patar136]

I will eventually do a post where I discuss niche sun team options, but I wanted to start with the big one.

Charizard, arguably the most popular Pokemon of all time, next to Mewtwo and Pikachu. Hard to use? Absolutely, and it takes a skilled trainer to wield. But like many mons, this fan favorite is a powerhouse on sun teams.

Here is the one I experiment with.

Blazer (Charizard) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast
- Dragon Pulse

Charizard in the sun is one of the most satisfying Pokemon to use. Flamethrower is the preferred move for perfect accuracy as with choice specs, and Solar Power your special attack goes up to a whopping 712. This is more than enough power to OHKO many threats including but not limited to, Clefable, Gliscor, Specially Defensive Venusaur, Blaziken, Azelf, Togekiss and 2HKO almost everything else when combined with even a single layer of stealth rocks. When I experimented with Typhlosion, that is a mon that you want to run as a hit and run attacker and as such a scarf set works better when combined with Eruption. Charizard in contrast is designed to stand and fight for as long as it can before dying. Charizard is just bulky enough to survive some priority from Life Orb Lucario and Infernape's Mach Punch and alongside Moltres is the absolute best counter to Scizor's bullet punch imaginable. As your opponent tries to run away, the replacement mon takes severe damage from Flamethrower, even those that resist such as Rotom-Wash. The other moves are situational but help ensure coverage against key targets such as Gastrodon, Swampert, Heatran, the rare Kingdra and Dragonite. Spin support is mandatory as is sun, otherwise you are better running Heatran, Infernape or Blaziken. But with the sun, this is a special attacker that can make your opponent realize the power of the sun. The presence of sun in OU has given a calling to Charizard, and Ash's iconic Fire Starter is here to stay.

 

[ihammerhead23]

This core is deadly in the current metagame. Scizor and Latios combine to check most of the offensive threats in the metagame, providing some safety. But most importantly, they force a lot of switches to steel types, allowing Infernape to come in and wreak havoc. Very little in the metagame switches in to mixed Infernape reliably, so it really just clicks buttons on everyone. You can pretty much pair this core with any two offensive mons and a hazard setter, and you've at least got a decent team.

 

[JTD783]

Has anybody else experimented with an anti-meta trick room team?

have come up with the following, after many iterations and battles. It still struggles against slower fatter teams, such as those with blissey and clefable, as they are good at wasting critical turns. It also sucks using 4 psychic types in a metagame where Gengar is king and Alakazam plays second fiddle.


Bronzong @ Kasib Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Gyro Ball
- Explosion
- Stealth Rock

Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
- Swords Dance

Torkoal @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Flamethrower
- Eruption
- Solar Beam
- Clear Smog

Exeggutor @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Explosion
- Wood Hammer
- Psychic

Slowbro @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Flamethrower
- Psychic
- Ice Beam

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

is absolutely essential on any viable trick room team, due to its ability to 2hko the meta. Swords dance on predicted switches into bulkier opponents.

makes a great rocker, and can explode after setting trick room.

is the best option I have found to deal with breloom, which any trick room team would otherwise struggle against. Wood hammer and explosion with max attack can hurt switch ins like blissey. Psychic is just for breloom, and is your best attack against Gengar.

is the speedy flex option, as it can rapid spin, and it is faster than a lot of the annoying Pokémon’s that threaten the team, like taunt skarmory, taunt Gliscor, Gengar, heatran and Latios.

the last two are really flex options, I’ve used due to its tankiness against fast physical threats and it’s ability to flame down scizor

is amazing and can 2hko blissey if it’s healthy .. but needs rapid spin support to be viable … and therefore this makes gameplay sometimes too predictable against the top 30 or so players

would love to see some ideas on what can be changed. Only crawdaunt is truly irreplaceable.. and bronzong/exeggutor a close second and third place behind. Currently threats like Blissey are a major thorn, because the only way you break it against a competent player, is through wearing down all the other 5 members with Crawdaunt, so there is a lot of pressure on crawdaunt against any top player.

any tips to reduce the crawdaunt bottleneck? It’s the only member that can currently reliably open up teams.

Some potentially viable slow mons are Steelix, Rhyperior, Marowak, Mawile, Machamp, Ursaring, Rampardos, Azumarill, and Tyranitar.

Steelix has perfect coverage with dual STABs + Rock coverage, but it struggles with Skarmory. Maybe Curse + 3 Attacks could work.

Rhyperior can use Band or SD 3 Attacks to some success. For its coverage, Heat Crash was removed and I don’t think Fire Punch is available on it either but Megahorn hits Slowbro at least. Like Steelix, it can tank a hit from Garchomp if needed.

The closest thing to Alolan Marowak. I think Thick Club exists, and if it does then SD sets look appealing.

Sheer Force LO sets are usually found in lower modern tiers but BDSP’s drop in power could make Mawile usable depending on how much coverage it has retained. LO Sucker Punch is also nice.

Fighting version of “Guts go brrrr”. Close Combat is a nuke, not sure what Machamp’s coverage looks like in BDSP however.

Normal version of “Guts go brrrr”. STAB Facade deletes every non-resist.

Head Smash go brrrr. It might be able to make use of Sheer Force + LO.

Azumarill is probably best off using a Choice Band but will otherwise be a Crawdaunt clone with better defensive utility.

Base 61 is still an acceptable speed for Trick Room. Mixed LO with Flamethrower and Ice Beam seems like a great lure for Skarmory and Gliscor, respectively.

I have yet to use Trick Room but from what I’ve seen while playing others, it seems viable. Also I suggest using Cresselia and/or Uxie as your Trick Roomt setters. They have better longevity than your Bronzong and are especially good at checking Garchomp. Cresselia can support with Healing Wish while Uxie has Stealth Rock and U-Turn.

 

[VannAccessible]

Thanks for the reply VannAccessible

do you have suggestions for Pokémon’s to use?

have experimented with and whilst it can 2hko the meta with its stabs, it’s not fun missing headsmash 20% of the time, as it often costs games when you get a 64% chance to 2hko the bulkiest resists. It also adds more to the fighting weakness .. but at least can force out clefable!

dragmag hasn’t been an issue at all, they tend to be horrible against trick room! Rarely lose to those types of teams, it’s generally the slower bulkier teams that spam protect/substitute as you mentioned.

peak so far is about 1550, have been modifying it a lot, current iteration is using chople as a shadow ball immunity, tho without eviolite it’s bulk is really lacking, and choosing between recover or magic coat is a tough decision.

the anti synergy of crawdaunt and torkoal , combined with torkoals rock weakness meant that only crawdaunt still makes the cut. It’s by far the most required member of a BDSP trick room team!

—-



I think you can reliably beat EVERY offensive team with a simple semi-trick room team with just Bronzong and crawdaunt. Your other 4 can be S or A tier threats (with a switch in for breloom and azumarill)… offensive teams can simply not switch in on crawdaunt in trick room, so it usually bets at least 2 KOs and busts a team wide open.

the reason it would work so well is because bronzong can be EV optimised to switch into every dragon, and set up SR + TR (or just TR) before exploding. Offensive teams don’t have the counterplay to cope with that, and in the top 30 or so ELO, everyone knows what to expect , so your team needs consistency

I had fun playing against you! Sorry about the wall o’ text, I don’t know how to do sprites.

Well I agree with you there, Offense is generally the easiest MU for TR. But yeah, the Stall / Balance MU is much more challenging.

Suicide setters like Explosion Bronzong and Mew are great at setting rocks, TRing and against offense and getting the kill train going with a bang, but Balance and Stall with their durability usually put having a suicide lead at a disadvantage. Stall is generally running Protect Unaware Clefable and Tangrowth which together totally stone wall Crawdaunt and Band Azurmarril, meaning while the suicide setter is never going to be worth it in a stall MU. You’re sacrificing a team slot for momentum in that MU that just isn’t going to be worth losing 1 of your 6 mons against what will be a long game.

I’ll offer my setters I’ve tried.

You mentioned the Crawdaunt bottleneck for Stall. “We’ve had one Crawdaunt yes, but what about second Crawdaunt?”

Cresselia (F) @ Mental Herb / Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Ice Beam
- Moonlight
- Trick Room
- Lunar Dance

Cres shouldn’t be a new concept to anyone who’s ever used TR. This thing is FAT, sticks around as long as you need it to so it can set up TR multiple times a game, scouts Gengar’s Shadow Balls with Moonlight (which you can then capitalize on by switching to a Normal type), and heals up your Crawdaunt or whatever and gets them in for free. It walls Dragons to high hell and nails them with Ice Beam, as well as Gliscor and Breloom. Item choice is between Mental Herb or Lum Berry. I prefer not to lead with Cres, since many people lead with with their Taunter, so LB let’s it set up it can set up on Breloom without worrying about sleep, as well as Thunder Wave Togekiss which is a total jerk that will flinch most TR setters to death if you let it.

————

Mew @ Mental Herb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Overheat / Earthquake
- Trick Room
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion

I’ve shifted away from using a suicide lead because of that troublesome Stall MU, but Mew is good at it. It’s basically works the same as your Bronzong. Mental Herb for Taunt, bulky, hard to OHKO, sets up TR, rocks and then explodes, which prevents Rapid Spin or Defog from removing said rocks, and then gets your breaker in, often getting an Explosion kill in the process.

The last move is why I think Mew is slightly better than Bronzong in this role, despite being a bit easier to OHKO. It lets Mew take out things that Explosion would otherwise be a dud against.

Overheat (my preference) let’s you roast Skarmory, Forretress and Scizor, liberating your physical breakers to get to work faster.

Earthquake is worth noting as gets Gengar and Heatran, both of whom are trouble for other squad mates.

Take your pick there!

—————-


Xatu (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Roost / Defog
- Trick Room
- Teleport

Here’s a TR setter that sets up as a guaranteed lead, as it can’t be Taunted or Spored, while also keeping rocks off the field, which is nice for Specs Torkoal. Teleport gets your first switch in for your breaker safely, but unlike an Explosion setter, you aren’t getting a kill on the switch. It’s not going to set up TR twice unless it’s sash remains in tact from the first round, but it’s also useful death fodder after the first round of TR. Just pack more answers to Breloom.

————

Gardevoir (F) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Trick Room

Sometimes switching out after setting TR is a turn sink you can’t afford. Sometimes you just want to start blasting the team from the get go. For this reason, Gardevoir is the best offensive setter.

It sets up all over Latios and most special attackers, and it steals abilities, which is really handy against Heatran. With Trace, Gardevoir, like Porygon2, is Magma Storm trapping proof, but unlike Pory, it can actually hit Heatran with Focus Blast. With STABs, and yoinked abilities, Garde is a great cleaner!

—————-

Alright those are some setters I’ve tried, here’s the breakers I’ve used.

Azumarill (F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Waterfall
- Play Rough
- Aqua Jet
- Superpower

Here’s the actual second Crawdaunt, with a better defensive typing that resists Mach Punch and is less squishy. Juicy STABs, Aqua Jet for priority outside TR, Superpower for Empoleon and easing predictions against stuff like Tyranitar and Heatran when the opponent also has some water resists. All around great breaker in TR, and can be paired with Crawdaunt for Water Spam. Honestly, it’s almost as good as Crawdaunt in TR, but slightly less spammable as it can be played around being locked into moves.

—————


Aggron (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Head Smash
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch

Here’s a physically bulky breaker that seeks to take advantage of Clefable. Head Smash is waaaaaay spammable. 150 BP coming off an impressive 110 base attack, and no recoil and very few defensive Rock resists in the meta. The catch? 80% accuracy makes 2HKOs against bulky threats inconsistent. When it works it works, but consistency is what gets you high ladder, so it’s not my favorite.

———-

Steelix (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang
- Substitute / Explosion

Now this guy I will argue is BETTER than Aggron. Steelix sports equally impressive physical bulk with a better defensive typing, doesn’t get forced out by Breloom, and sports a handy electric immunity. Steelix helped Crawdaunt and Azurmarril get me my peak, so he gets my highest recommendation for what he brings to Trick Room.

Like Aggron, he can swap into annoying Clefables, but he is also deceptively powerful without locking into moves. Heavy Slam is a nuke that 2HKOs Gliscor, EQ hits Steels like Heatran and Jirachi, Fire Fang hits Scizor and Skarmory which can’t do much back and gets a Sheer Force boost. Last move, I like Substitute as it lets Steelix take the most advantage of Protect Heatran and Clefable and severely easing that mu. Explosion is also nice as it lets Steelix net a surprise KO on Rotom and Quagsire, while also grabbing offensive momentum. Take your pick!

—————

Exploud (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Boomburst
- Overheat
- Focus Blast
- Surf / Sleep Talk

I hesitate to even mention Specsloud because it gets stonewalled by Blissey, but it’s nice to list an option for the jerk Suicune / Gengar Substitute MU and having a handy ghost immunity. Just click Boomburst, and watch stuff drop. Scrappy means it hits ghosts too. Focus Blast hits Heatran and Tyranitar, Overheat hits Scizor and Jirachi. Surf hits the normal resists with more accuracy than Focus Blast. While really strong, Specsloud is useless for the Stall MU. Pity, because it’s really fun. :/

———-


Seviper (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Sludge Bomb
- Dark Pulse
- Final Gambit
- Switcheroo

One more for funsies, because I really hate Substitutes. Seviper has Infiltrator, so it bypasses Subs and Screens! It’s not as bad against Stall as Exploud, as it can use Switcheroo to screw over a wall or Suicune behind a sub, and even after doing that, a Final Gambit from full health is going to really hurt something. Stab Poison scares Clefable out and Dark Pulse is for getting Gengar through Substitute.

—————

Other stuff: Marowak, Machamp, Heracross; while all strong, got me no where on the ladder. I won’t say they’re bad, but stalling out Guts mons is too easy for the Bulky mons running high ladder. Marowak simply isn’t equipped to deal with stuff like Skarmory, Gliscor and Tangrowth, which are all also Stall and Balance staples.

 

[Patar136]

Some potentially viable slow mons are Steelix, Rhyperior, Marowak, Mawile, Machamp, Ursaring, Rampardos, Azumarill, and Tyranitar.

Steelix has perfect coverage with dual STABs + Rock coverage, but it struggles with Skarmory. Maybe Curse + 3 Attacks could work.

Rhyperior can use Band or SD 3 Attacks to some success. For its coverage, Heat Crash was removed and I don’t think Fire Punch is available on it either but Megahorn hits Slowbro at least. Like Steelix, it can tank a hit from Garchomp if needed.

The closest thing to Alolan Marowak. I think Thick Club exists, and if it does then SD sets look appealing.

Sheer Force LO sets are usually found in lower modern tiers but BDSP’s drop in power could make Mawile usable depending on how much coverage it has retained. LO Sucker Punch is also nice.

Fighting version of “Guts go brrrr”. Close Combat is a nuke, not sure what Machamp’s coverage looks like in BDSP however.

Normal version of “Guts go brrrr”. STAB Facade deletes every non-resist.

Head Smash go brrrr. It might be able to make use of Sheer Force + LO.

Azumarill is probably best off using a Choice Band but will otherwise be a Crawdaunt clone with better defensive utility.

Base 61 is still an acceptable speed for Trick Room. Mixed LO with Flamethrower and Ice Beam seems like a great lure for Skarmory and Gliscor, respectively.

I have yet to use Trick Room but from what I’ve seen while playing others, it seems viable. Also I suggest using Cresselia and/or Uxie as your Trick Roomt setters. They have better longevity than your Bronzong and are especially good at checking Garchomp. Cresselia can support with Healing Wish while Uxie has Stealth Rock and U-Turn.

Some mons to add to a trick team list are Spiritomb , Camerupt, Parasect, Snorlax and Omastar. I redacted some mons since I realize that they were covered by others.

Spiritomb has only a single weakness to fairies. Otherwise, nothing is super effective against this. In Trick Room, Calm Mind would be powerful with its powerful special move pool.

Camerupt is a natural fit to go alongside Torkoal. Trick Room with Sun support would be extremely dangerous if Camerupt is firing off Eruptions, Overheats, Earth Powers and Flash Cannons. I could see this as a reverse Heatran.

Parasect has the coveted Spore and with Dry Skin it has the rare chance to be a premier mon of Trick Room rain. Though it would require dedicated rain support OR for the Drizzle Ban to be undone to see more serious use. Even without rain, its typing actually makes it a great check to Breloom in Trick Room.

Snorlax, the king of OU from Generation II, is arguably the strongest Normal type possible for Trick Room. I could see it running a Curse Set and just becoming unkillable after a few rounds.

Omastar has just good enough stats to work in Trick Room as a special sweeper. What is also interesting is that it is arguably the best Shell Smasher that could work with Trick Room, setting up SS on the final turn and then powering through offensively.

 

[cyberacc]

Quick thoughts:

-Dragon spam is insanely noxious. Having to run two checks to it that are just useless to sunspam isnt fun or competitive. Latios and Multiscale Dragonite should be looked into, Garchomp has nasty weaknesses the entire metagame can exploit. Magnezone is not the problem like it is in SS.
-Blaziken is insanely busted and is as obscene as it was during BW sun, get it suspected. Any autoweather besides sand has no place in an underpowered metagame like BDSP.
- Manaphy is still Manaphy and if it isnt looked into youre going to run the risk of alienating every team that cant just offensively kill it.

 

[Ehmcee]

Been using webs offense a lot, and I think masquerain has merit over smeargle as a webber.

Masquerain @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Def / 88 SpA
Bold Nature
- Sticky Web
- Ice Beam
- Stun Spore
- U-turn

This is a set I made that makes Masquerain act as a somewhat more offensive threat, able to OHKO Garchomp, Gliscor, Salamence and Dragonite with some chip.

Calcs

88 SpA Life Orb Masquerain Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 421-499 (100.2 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
88 SpA Life Orb Masquerain Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 244 SpD Gliscor: 354-416 (100.5 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
88 SpA Life Orb Masquerain Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 442-525 (112.1 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also can switchin with no rocks and tank a move at +1 from non outrage chomp
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 168 HP / 252+ Def Masquerain: 265-315 (82 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Scale Shot (3 hits) vs. 168 HP / 252+ Def Masquerain: 234-282 (72.4 - 87.3%) -- approx. 2HKO

Usually acts as a lead, it's able to set webs up reliably against physical mons.
Stun Spore works very well in conjunction with ice beam, since you can reliably paralyze (i mean, it's 75%, but still) any mon that isnt ground or electric, and ice beam nails ground type switchins.

 

[supermario1096]

OH DEAR GOD.
I just checked, and Deoxys is back in every form. I'm terrified of what this means for BDSP OU.