Blaziken [4F]'+

jrrrrrrr

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Still waiting for Milotic to come up, so sorry this hasn't been worked upon lately.

However, after a lot of playtesting, I have a suggestion that may be a bit controversial - I'm going to mention the alternate spread(240 Atk/ 16 Spe) in the set comments, as well as EVs. This is because the spread is more useful than it seems to be given credit for, and sometimes I miss the attack EVs. The cases I'm talking about is random stuff like Lanturn at 80% or something - Superpower doesn't cut it in these cases.

However, I would like the opinion of the community before I go ahead.
Everybody already said that the slow set should go in there but the fast set is the main one. "If you want to forego the Speed advantage that Blaziken has on most pokemon in UU, you can maximize both Attacking stats since you only need to put 16 EVs in Speed to outpace Blaziken's best counter in Milotic" or something in the set comments, and something like that in the EVs section as well.
 

Erazor

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Alright, thanks for your opinions.

@HeYsUp - listen, don't worry man. I'll make sure that "your" spread gets adequate mention, so people(especially newer players) will be convinced about both sets.
 
Alright, thanks for your opinions.

@HeYsUp - listen, don't worry man. I'll make sure that "your" spread gets adequate mention, so people(especially newer players) will be convinced about both sets.
Well i'm not worried lol. It's not about having "my" spread in the analysis, I just still think its the better spread after extensively testing them both and getting to #3 with the 240 atk spread. Some people suggested I try one last time, which is probably what i'm going to do.

Out of curiosity, are we going to have to remove all of the Crobat mentions once it's limbo'd, or only once it's banned?

EDIT:

Thanks twash.

EDIT2: My post was deleted, but my point was that the match we (me and jrr) played is basically irrelevant for many reasons.
 

jrrrrrrr

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Well i'm not worried lol. It's not about having "my" spread in the analysis, I just still think its the better spread after extensively testing them both and getting to #3 with the 240 atk spread. Some people suggested I try one last time, which is probably what i'm going to do.
Yeah considering we just had a match where your Blaziken with 240 Atk switched in and did 74% to my Regirock...and then immediately cost your team a KO because I switched Honchkrow in right after and left your slow Blaziken helpless, its pretty safe to say that both sets have their merits, lol. That was the most accurate example of the disadvantages v advantages that I could possibly portray...I really wish I saved the log just for this thread. So yeah, keep the fast spread as the main and mention the 240 atk spread where we already discussed, Erazor. Thanks.
 
Can we stop with the "I'll post when Milotic is done" posts? It's really silly and annoying, especially when you aren't making a point, and from now on action will be taken.

Also, as far as I can see / know, there are going to be two EV spreads for it which need to be settled after the Milotic, so stop consistently going on about that too when no decision is being made yet.
 

jrrrrrrr

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So the analysis now mainly emphasizes the new EV spread for the mixed priority attacker. I also rewrote a few paras.
HeYsUp still deserves most of the credit, the rest of the sets themselves were fine.

www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/blaziken

[SET]
name: Mixed (Priority) Attacker
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Superpower
move 3: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Electric
move 4: Vacuum Wave / Stone Edge
item: Life Orb
nature: Mild / Rash
evs: 72 Atk / 252 SpA / 184 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is designed to take advantage of Blaziken's great offensive stats and break down most of the walls in UU. The strategy is simple - send Blaziken in on a support move or weak attack , such as Spiritomb's Will-O-Wisp or Stealth Rock from Registeel or Steelix. After this, proceed to hit the inevitable switch-in with Fire Blast or Hidden Power, and then finish them off with Superpower, or Vacuum Wave if they outspeed Blaziken.</p>

<p>Fire Blast will be your main attack, and Hidden Power is for the common Water-type switch-ins. Both Hidden Powers get the important 2HKO on bulky waters like Slowbro and Milotic, who fall to a Fire Blast followed by Hidden Power, and Superpower followed by Hidden power respectively (Milotic has a very small chance of survival with the most defensive EV spread), as long as Stealth Rock is in play. Other walls such as Registeel and Regice are (removed "easily") dispatched by any of Blaziken's STAB attacks, and Chansey is easily OHKOed by Superpower, which lets another special sweeper dominate. Vacuum Wave helps Blaziken become a fairly decent revenge killer as well, nearly OHKOing dangerous Pokemon such as Omastar and Kabutops (if it does not carry Aqua Jet) in the rain.</p>

<p>Another option is to put Stone Edge over Vacuum Wave to hit Altaria, who is the only Pokemon who can safely switch into this set. However, Vacuum Wave is generally a better choice though, taking into account Blaziken's mediocre Speed, and Vacuum Wave's revenge killing power.</p>

<p>The EVs are chosen to capitalize on Blaziken's mixed attacking capabilities, while still managing to outrun some dangerous foes. (space)With 184 Speed EVs, you outspeed pokemon like Honchkrow and Gardevoir, allowing you to beat them before they nail you with their STAB attacks. Maximum Special attack is used to hit walls as hard as possible, while 72 Attack EVs still get the OHKO on Chansey, (removed "assuming that Stealth Rock is in play." since even with 0 Atk EVs and a -Atk nature, Blazikens SP is a clean ohko on Chansey almost 100% of the time)</p>

<p>A perfectly viable alternate EV spread of 240 Atk/252 SpA/16 Spe is also recommeded for this set. Blaziken becomes one of the best stall breakers in UU with this spread, as it can OHKO or 2HKO almost every Pokemon in UU. The speed EVs let you outspeed minimum speed Milotic, who would otherwise counter Blaziken very well, while giving you a higher chance of taking it out with Superpower followed by a super effective Hidden Power. Some bulky waters like Gastrodon and Omastar (removed "now") fall to a Fire Blast followed by Superpower, and the standard Lanturn is now OHKOed by Superpower assuming Stealth Rock is in play. Note that this spread is better used with Hidden Power Electric. Using this slower EV spread will net you more clean OHKOs against stall teams in case you can't accumulate residual damage, at the cost of being revenge killed by a couple of extra threats that fall in Blaziken's speed tier. Blaziken is one of few Pokemon that can pull off a power for speed trade, so either spread will benefit your team greatly.</p>

<p>The choice of nature does not affect the set too much; it depends on your preference. Mild is suggested for the sole reason that Blaziken makes a very good Spiritomb and Houndoom switch-in. Rash helps you live through other priority users' attacks, such as Arcanine, Hitmontop, or Ambipom. Either of the natures is perfectly fine.</p>

<p>This Blaziken is a great Pokemon to break your opponent's walls such as Registeel, Chansey, and Slowbro, who may cause significant trouble for your sweepers. Mismagius and Espeon make great teammates for Blaziken, because with Registeel and Chansey out of the way, they can set up a couple of Calm Minds and sweep the opponent's team. Pokemon such as Swords Dance Drapion can take advantage of a possible Steelix or Regirock kill as well, as they are it's major counters. Azumarill is a good choice with Blaziken too, because with Slowbro out of the way, Azumaril can sweep more effectively.</p>

<p>Defensively, Shaymin is a great Pokemon to use alongside Blaziken, as it can take the Water and Ground-type attacks aimed at Blaziken, while dealing with the bulky Water-types and Hariyama that Blaziken may have trouble with. It is also recommended that you carry an Ice-type attack on your team when you use Blaziken, because Altaria severely hinders Blaziken's wall breaking power, as it walls the entire set. Stealth Rock is also needed to take advantage of this set.</p>

[SET]
name: Mixed Agility Sweeper
move 1: Agility
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Hidden Power Electric
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
nature: Rash
evs: 192 Atk / 252 SpA / 64 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>An oft-heard complaint about Blaziken is that while it hits hard, it lacks the speed to actually sweep. This is remedied by utilizing Agility to take Blaziken's speed to a whole new level, and is one of it's best shots at sweeping.</p>

<p>Fire Blast will be your main sweeping attack, and really leaves its markremoved comma coming off of base 110 Special Attack. Superpower deals with what Fire Blast cannot, and the drops in attack are not very important, as you will be sweeping primarily with special moves. Finally, Hidden Power Electric is used for coverage against bulky waters and Flying types. Most importantly, it allows you to beat Moltres, (removed "who loves switching in on Blaziken"), if Stealth Rock is up.</p>

<p>Naturally, Blaziken lures out its counters, but what is remarkable about Blaziken is that it can actually beat its counters before setting up its sweep. The EVs reflect this, allowing you to KO Milotic with Hidden Power followed by Superpower, assuming Stealth Rock in play. Maximum special attack allows Fire Blast to outright annihilate most things that do not resist it. 64 Speed EVs outspeeds Adamant Torterra before an agility, and outspeeds Choice Scarf users such as Roserade and Moltres after an agility.</p>

<p>The item choice is slightly tricky. Life Orb is preferred because of the damage output against neutrally-hit Pokemon such as Hariyama, but Expert Belt lets you bluff a Choice Scarf or Choice Specs set before you use Agility, and you take no recoil damage. A Rash nature is used over Mild because this set needs as much protection against priority attacks as possible.</p>

<p>This set works a lot like the previous set, but without priority, instead it increases its speed. Since this variant of Blaziken is a stand-alone sweeper (as in it breaks walls for itself), this set only has trouble with Pokemon like Altaria, Slowking, and Hariyama, who wall this set with their resistances and bulkiness. One of the best ways to deal with Altaria is to use a Pokemon such as Shaymin who can lure it in on a Seed Flare, and OHKO it with Hidden Power Ice. In fact, any Pokemon who can lure in Altaria and hit it with an Ice-type attack is a good partner for Blaziken. Stealth Rock also helps, due to Altaria taking 25% every time it switches in. Honchrow makes a perfect partner with Blaziken as well, beating Hariyama with its STAB Drill Peck, as well as trapping Slowking with its STAB Pursuit. Even though this set functions fine without any other boosts, it can benefit greatly from Calm Mind boosts from Espeon, who can Baton Pass to Blaziken on any Bug or Dark-type attack aimed at Espeon.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Focus Blast / Focus Punch
move 3: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Electric / Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Vacuum Wave
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Blaziken can forego wall breaking for a Specs set, and uses it efficiently.spaceThe most attractive thing about this set is that you have a very powerful priority move in Vacuum Wave. This allows Blaziken to function as a late game priority sweeper, and even though it doesn't have Technician, it has a very respectable Special Attack stat to work off.</p>

<p>Focus Blast always gets the 2HKO on Milotic and Chansey,and Blissey in OU, as well as the OHKO on Clefable, and is a very powerful secondary STAB attack. The 70 accuracy is a bit of a turn off, so Focus Punch is also an option. Focus Punch even with a -Atk nature always gets an OHKO on Chansey and Clefable.</p>

<p>There are other options for the Hidden Power slot with this set, such as Hidden Power Rock, which hits Moltresremove comma and Charizard, who are otherwise some of the safest switch-ins to this set. Hidden Power Ice can be used if you find Altaria (another safe switch-in to this set) walling you too often, while Blaziken's Fire Blast has a very good (97%) chance to 2HKO Slowbro with Stealth Rock up anyway. Using those Hidden Power types means you need to rely on Focus Blast's 70 accuracy to take out Milotic in two hits, though.</p>

<p>The EVs make this Blaziken as offensive as possible, but there are a couple of alternative EV spreads. Blaziken can sacrifice some Speed EVs for bulk, due to Vacuum Wave and the fact that the Pokemon it comes in on are generally slow walls. Safely, the lowest Speed that Blaziken should be at is 201 (Modest with 20 Speed EVs), which outspeeds Milotic and max Speed Azumarill. With the remaining 152 EVs in HP, and 84 EVs put into Defense, Blaziken can survive a Choice Band boosted Aqua Jet and 2HKO Azumarill. The bulkier EV Spread looks like this: 152 HP / 84 Def / 252 SpA / 20 Spe.</p>



[SET]
name: Physical Choice
move 1: Flare Blitz
move 2: Superpower
move 3: ThunderPunch
move 4: Stone Edge / Blaze Kick
item: Choice Band / Choice Scarf
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Blaziken can be a (removed "terribly") powerful sweeper with its superior Attack stat and movepool. With two 120 base power STAB attacks coming off a base 120 Attack stat, many Pokemon will think twice before switching into this monster. ThunderPunch is an excellent move for Blaziken on this set, as a Choice Band boosted ThunderPunch always 2HKOs Milotic, which is one of the safer switch-ins to the other sets. The sheer power of a Choice Band boosted Flare Blitz can OHKO a good portion of the metagame on its own, such as Crobat. It also 2HKOs most defensive Pokemon as well. Altaria, who would otherwise commonly switch in to any of the other sets, is 2HKOed with Stealth Rock in play, though a predicted Stone Edge will OHKO the poor dragon. The main disadvantage of using this set, however, is that it Slowbro can switch in to it all day, with ThunderPunch barely missing out on the 2HKO.</p>

[EVs]

<p>The mixed attacking set can run an alternate spread of 240 Atk/252 SpAtk/ 16 Spe. This spread is especially suggested if you opt to use Hidden Power Electric, as it allows Blaziken to KO Gastrodon, Omastar and Quagsire with Fire Blast followed by Superpower. It also gives Superpower more oomph, but the general rule of thumb is that Speed is more useful on a sweeper. The 16 Speed EVs still allow you to outrun minimum speed Milotic, which is important, as Milotic is otherwise one of Blaziken's primary counters. Using all of that Attack power allows Blaziken to be one of the best wall-breakers in UU, at the expense of being a bit easier for your opponent to revenge kill. </p>
I edited the relevant places to be more fair to the spreads, this is a really good compromise.

I think Baton Pass should also be emphasized a bit more in OO. Also, you should fix up the numerous spacing issues in this...there are multiple places where you ended sentences and started others without putting a space in between.
 
That paragraph looks good Jrrr thanks. However I think you should mention that Superpower becomes a much more viable attack to open up with, and that it OHKOes Registeel. Other than that it's perfect.

EDIT: If I had to pick one thing it would be OHKOing Registeel though.
 

Erazor

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Alright, I have edited in everything so far.

I think that this is done. If someone can proofread it once, just to catch any errors that are still there, I'd appreciate it.
 

franky

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Altaria is probably the best all around switch in to Blaziken, as it can take any attack except for Hidden Power Ice and Stone Edge. Resisting both of Blaziken's STABs, it is probably your best bet if you want to safely switch in to Blaziken.
I'm iffy with Altaria being the "best all around counter" If someone deserves a whole paragraph of being the best all around counter, it should be Slowbro. It easily comes in on its beloved STAB attacks and can cripple it with Thunder Wave or use Surf. Not to mention the fact it has Slack Off to heal off damage in the long run. Hidden Power [Grass] or [Electric] does decent damage but I have to look closer on the damage calculations if its a 2HKO or 3HKO w/ leftovers.

Altaria fears Stone Edge and gambling to stay in or not is scary because it could be scarfed, where as Slowbro can almost stay in on any sets throwned at it.
 

Erazor

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Counters

I'm iffy with Altaria being the "best all around counter" If someone deserves a whole paragraph of being the best all around counter, it should be Slowbro. It easily comes in on its beloved STAB attacks and can cripple it with Thunder Wave or use Surf. Not to mention the fact it has Slack Off to heal off damage in the long run. Hidden Power [Grass] or [Electric] does decent damage but I have to look closer on the damage calculations if its a 2HKO or 3HKO w/ leftovers.

Altaria fears Stone Edge and gambling to stay in or not is scary because it could be scarfed, where as Slowbro can almost stay in on any sets throwned at it.
Didn't you read the first set's comments? It's stated that Slowbro is KOed by Fire Blast followed by Hidden Power Grass.

@MoP - what do you mean? Both spreads are mentioned.
 

franky

aka pimpdaddyfranky, aka frankydelaghetto, aka F, aka ef
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This is max SpA + beneficial nature:

Fire Blast vs 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro : 40.36% - 47.46%

Clean 3HKO with leftovers. An alternative counter would be Slowking who could do a better job in reality sponging Fire Blast. My point is Slowbro/king needs a strong mention in the counter sections

Didn't you read the first set's comments? It's stated that Slowbro is KOed by Fire Blast followed by Hidden Power Grass.
I stated:

where as Slowbro can almost stay in on any sets throwned at it.
My point is Altaria is not "the best all around counter". Well from my experience Slowbro has been a better counter but then again I haven't tried using Altaria to switch in on it. Overall, that mofo is hard to counter without knowing its movesets. I would say that Slowbro can manage with the "Physical sets" where as Altaria can handle Special hits throwned at it.
 
And HP Grass against the same Slowbro:

350 Atk vs 196 Def & 394 HP (70 Base Power): 236 - 278 (59.90% - 70.56%)

So Slowbro is 2HKOed, which means it isn't a counter.
 

Legacy Raider

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I'm iffy with Altaria being the "best all around counter" If someone deserves a whole paragraph of being the best all around counter, it should be Slowbro. It easily comes in on its beloved STAB attacks and can cripple it with Thunder Wave or use Surf. Not to mention the fact it has Slack Off to heal off damage in the long run. Hidden Power [Grass] or [Electric] does decent damage but I have to look closer on the damage calculations if its a 2HKO or 3HKO w/ leftovers.

Altaria fears Stone Edge and gambling to stay in or not is scary because it could be scarfed, where as Slowbro can almost stay in on any sets throwned at it.
252+ LO Fire Blast vs 252/0 Slowbro: 38.1 - 44.9%
252+ LO HP Grass vs 252/0 Slowbro: 59.9 - 70.6%

That's an over 50% chance to KO with Leftovers without Stealth Rock, and guaranteed with it. Slowbro makes for a very poor counter - it will be outsped and taken out unless Fire Blast misses. You're right on Slowking though, it takes on the mix attacker much better. Erazor I would add Slowking to the counters section.

Altaria does quite a bit better than either of them because it isn't weak to Grass or Electric, and Blaziken won't give up its super effective hidden power on the more common bulky waters just to go for ice for altaria. Some calcs vs 252 HP / 200 Def / 56+ SpD Altaria:

Fire Blast: 28.8 - 34.2%
Superpower: 26.3 - 30.8%

It can come in on any of Mix Blaziken's attacks and Roost off the damage, while Blaziken continues to get weakened by LO.
 

franky

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I suppose Slowbro is a little weak to Hidden Power Grass thanks for the calculations. I would just mention Slowbro to handle the Physically-based sets soley because it resists Flare Blitz + Super Power which are both high-powered attacks. If Altaria really is the best all-around counter, then alright, but I feel Slowbro needs a stronger mention in the counters section.
 

Erazor

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I mentioned Slowking in the counters section.

Franky, it's also mentioned in the physically based sets that Slowbro can wall them.

Thanks for the help guys. Would still like a proofread though.
 

franky

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Cool, just wanted King/Bro to have a stronger mention and quick nitpick

<p>Slowking is a very good counter to the Mixed Priority and Agility sets, as it takes Fire Blasts and Hidden Powers better than Slowbro due to its good Special Defense, while Blaziken suffers Life Orb recoil damage.</p>
(Space)
<p>Blaziken's main weaknesses are its low Speed and defenses. With mediocre Speed, Blaziken can be easily revenge killed by anything with a super effective attack that has decent attack strength. Pokemon such as Crobat, Drapion, and Shaymin are taken out by a Fire Blast, but they outrun Blaziken and OHKO with Brave Bird, Earthquake or Earth Power respectively. The key to eliminating Blaziken is by predicting an obvious Fire Blast or Superpower, and then taking advantage of the fact that it's slow and fragile by either forcing it out or easily revenge killing it. For example, Pokemon such as Azumarill or Kabutops can switch in on a Fire Blast, then threaten to KO it with Aqua Jet or Waterfall respectively.</p>
 
Altaria is the "second best" counter, imo. The trouble is that Altaria will lose if Blaziken is at 40% HP with the 240 Atk spread, or 30% with the 72 Atk spread. Blaze gives Blaziken the power needed to 2HKO altaria.

Superpower (240 Atk) vs 252 / 200 Altaria: 29.66% - 35.31% (does over 50% with SR)

Fire Blast (Blaze) vs 252 / 56 + Altaria: 42.94% - 50.56% (Guaranteed KO at 33% or lower with SR)

Slowking is hands-down the best Mixed Blaziken switch-in. However, that risks people using the forgotten beast Choice Band set. This set is impressive vs Slowking:

CB Flare Blitz vs 252 / 0 Slowking: 46.45% - 54.82% (100% 2HKO with SR).

Im not sure if I put this in or not, but if I didnt it should be put in (Slowbro for Choice Band, and Slowking for Mixed)
 
How is Blaziken going to be reliably activating Blaze again?
Life Orb, residual damage, U-turn damage, Siesmic Toss from Chansey, etc.

You probably won't get in Blaze range every battle, but I think the fact that Blaziken can beat Altaria as long as Blaziken's under 40% is a big deal when claiming the "best switch-in" title.
 
I talked about this with SDS on IRC for a bit, and i think he mostly agreed about the main part of this.

I really don't think Blaziken should be running any Middle Speed EVs, like the current 184, especially if Honchkrow is gone.

I mean honestly, if you aren't going to be using Blaziken to get the main KOes with Superpower (most notably, OHKOing Registeel, LO Milotic, Azumarill etc), there is no reason to keep it at the power of OHKOing Chansey. If you want to use Blaziken as a "stall/wall breaker", 240 attack is needed, but if you're using Blaziken primarily as a sweeper, what's the issue of 2HKOing Chansey with Fire Blast + Superpower instead of always OHKOing with Superpower?

I suggest we move the primary Speed EVs up to 216 at the very least, to outspeed the now-common Absol. Mainly, I think Blaziken should either be at 216 Spe, or 16 Spe, not in-between.

In this current metagame w/o Honchkrow, I'm not sure which spread is better in other people's opinions (imo the wall breaker is even more superior then it was before due to Azumarill, Max Speed Milotic (faster then the "Fast" blaziken), and Registeel being ridiculously common) but either way, the "Faster" spread should definitely be boosted to 216 Speed if you're going to sacrifice the KOes anyway. I think this is even worth while if Honchkrow isn't banned.

EDIT: Sorry if some of this is difficult to understand, I'm tired lol.
 

Erazor

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I talked about this with SDS on IRC for a bit, and i think he mostly agreed about the main part of this.

I really don't think Blaziken should be running any Middle Speed EVs, like the current 184, especially if Honchkrow is gone.

I mean honestly, if you aren't going to be using Blaziken to get the main KOes with Superpower (most notably, OHKOing Registeel, LO Milotic, Azumarill etc), there is no reason to keep it at the power of OHKOing Chansey. If you want to use Blaziken as a "stall/wall breaker", 240 attack is needed, but if you're using Blaziken primarily as a sweeper, what's the issue of 2HKOing Chansey with Fire Blast + Superpower instead of always OHKOing with Superpower?

I suggest we move the primary Speed EVs up to 216 at the very least, to outspeed the now-common Absol. Mainly, I think Blaziken should either be at 216 Spe, or 16 Spe, not in-between.

In this current metagame w/o Honchkrow, I'm not sure which spread is better in other people's opinions (imo the wall breaker is even more superior then it was before due to Azumarill, Max Speed Milotic (faster then the "Fast" blaziken), and Registeel being ridiculously common) but either way, the "Faster" spread should definitely be boosted to 216 Speed if you're going to sacrifice the KOes anyway. I think this is even worth while if Honchkrow isn't banned.

EDIT: Sorry if some of this is difficult to understand, I'm tired lol.
Can we wait till the voting is over till making a decision on this?

Blaziken doesn't need to outspeed Absol due to Vacuum Wave, and it resists Sucker Punch.
 

cim

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I don't recall when the voting ends and all but we can always update an analysis after stuff has been banned if it's on site.
 
Can we wait till the voting is over till making a decision on this?

Blaziken doesn't need to outspeed Absol due to Vacuum Wave, and it resists Sucker Punch.
Sometimes resistance isn't good enough:

+2 Life Orb Sucker Punch vs Mild Blaziken

788 Atk vs 156 Def & 301 HP (80 Base Power): 282 - 332 (93.69% - 110.30%)

That's why it does in fact matter to go first in this case.

Regardless of whether or not Honchkrow is banned, I still think that OHKOing Chansey is something that the faster spread can afford to give up to be faster.
 

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