Bye bye Latias! Bring in the apes...

[PK Gaming]

Togekiss.


I forgot about it's existence until today. What the hell happened to it? It should be good in a metagame riddled with all of these Ttars and what. Both of it's main offensive threats are lethal.
It should be even better now with Scartar usage decreasing and Latias getting banned.

 

[Ericcc]

Togekiss.


I forgot about it's existence until today. What the hell happened to it? It should be good in a metagame riddled with all of these Ttars and what. Both of it's main offensive threats are lethal.
It should be even better now with Scartar usage decreasing and Latias getting banned.

But Togekiss' Aura Sphere can't OHKO a TTar (I'm pretty sure), and TTar can OHKO back with Stone Edge.
I don't think an experienced player would send out Togekiss against a TTar, to be honest.
Although I agree with the fact that Togekiss hasn't been around as much as it used to be.

 

[TheValkyries]

But Togekiss' Aura Sphere can't OHKO a TTar (I'm pretty sure), and TTar can OHKO back with Stone Edge.
I don't think an experienced player would send out Togekiss against a TTar, to be honest.
Although I agree with the fact that Togekiss hasn't been around as much as it used to be.

What are you talking about? Aura Sphere from a 0 SpA Togekiss does 123% minimum. And Togekiss can come out on EQs.

 

[ThirteenOfTwo]

TheValkyries, you must have left some Nasty Plot boosts on there or not set the weather to Sandstorm (remember TTar gets an SDef boost) because a 0 SpA Togekiss does 70.2% max to a 0 SpDef TTar. You have to be running the Choice Specs set in order to guarantee an OHKO, and even that won't finish CurseTar including Rocks.

Togekiss does, however, excel at coming in on a Scarfed or Banded EQ and forcing TTar out. Or just Encoring TTar into EQ, or Nasty Plotting. However, first you have to know if it's Choiced or not, otherwise you wasted an Encore (or worse, a Togekiss). Kiss is not a counter to TTar unless it's the Specs set and you know they're going to EQ.

 

[Ericcc]

TheValkyries, you must have left some Nasty Plot boosts on there or not set the weather to Sandstorm (remember TTar gets an SDef boost) because a 0 SpA Togekiss does 70.2% max to a 0 SpDef TTar. You have to be running the Choice Specs set in order to guarantee an OHKO, and even that won't finish CurseTar including Rocks.

Togekiss does, however, excel at coming in on a Scarfed or Banded EQ and forcing TTar out. Or just Encoring TTar into EQ, or Nasty Plotting. However, first you have to know if it's Choiced or not, otherwise you wasted an Encore (or worse, a Togekiss). Kiss is not a counter to TTar unless it's the Specs set and you know they're going to EQ.

Exactly. So what Togekiss set is popular on Shoddy now a days?
On wifi it's pretty much the Paraflincher set still, with some Nasty Plot ones here and there

 

[SJCrew]

I've been screwing around with a specially defensive set, which also acts as both paralysis support and a cleric. Togekiss itself hasn't disappointed me, though the team I use it on could stand some adjustments.

 

[PK Gaming]

Great. I was under the impression that Togekiss was ignored in OU metagame for a grave reason but I guess people really aren't using it.

What set would you guys say is Togekiss best set? For me it's the Nasty plot flincher set. I mean Blissey can't even counter you if your decently lucky (and I also run lum berry)

 

[Ericcc]

Great. I was under the impression that Togekiss was ignored in OU metagame for a grave reason but I guess people really aren't using it.

What set would you guys say is Togekiss best set? For me it's the Nasty plot flincher set. I mean Blissey can't even counter you if your decently lucky (and I also run lum berry)

Paraflincher is definitely the one I like most.
I've never used the NP sets because Togekiss' weakness to SR and low speed sort of puts me off.

 

[AJC]

i use a AP/batonpass/Airslash/Tri-attack set after a boost togekiss is fast hard to kill and does alot of damage if something comes in you can't kill you can BP the AP boosts to something that can.

 

[ThirteenOfTwo]

I personally favor the Encore support set, mostly because it's so annoying for people when they try to EQ a Heatran or something and find themselves locked into EQ with a Togekiss in. From there you Twave whatever comes in and proceed to Flinchhax it to death. Annoying as hell for opponents, plus it absolutely slaughters Breloom.

 

[toshimelonhead]

I use the ParaFlinch hax support with different EV spread that maximizes the defenses. With no SR up it can survive a Specs DM and recover the damage back, as well as being able to paralyze Scarftar and DD Mence (most of the time).

The spread is 252 HP/240 Def/16 SDef with a calm nature. Try it out on the paraflinch set and tell me how it does.

 

[simdude]

I use a togekiss on wifi something like this

Togekiss @ choice scarf
Modest
Serene Grace
252 speed/252 sp.atk/6 filler
-Nasty plot
-Trick
-Air slash
-Aura Sphere

The set really needs rapid spin support to work because togekiss will probably be coming in and out. The idea being that you can hopefully outspeed with scarf and flinch till something is dead. Or come in on something you would want to trick which hopefully will force a switch allowing you to nasty plot up.

 

[Lucalibur]

(Togekiss) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 122 HP/16 Def/104 Spd/252 SAtk/16 SDef
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Aura Sphere
- Ominous Wind
- Roost
- Tri Attack
...what? i like serene grace, but i just noticed, i dindt saw all the past pages but from what i know, latias counter togekiss right? in the time i used to run togekiss a bunch of latias always show up and trick a scarf into me, it was so annoying.

 

[Airfoil]

People are really milking this "unpredictability" Salamence has. People have sent in Mence on all kinds of things on my team. Sending him in after my Swampert has 5 Curses, Porygon has a +2 in speed, thinking I'm going to switch. Then they rage quit when I don't.

 

[TehYoshi]

People are really milking this "unpredictability" Salamence has. People have sent in Mence on all kinds of things on my team. Sending him in after my Swampert has 5 Curses, Porygon has a +2 in speed, thinking I'm going to switch. Then they rage quit when I don't.

This is not what unpredictability is...the point is to switch Mence into anything that fears it / can't do much back to it and either start DDing or fire a powerful attack at the incoming pokemon, in the case of mixmence. Since you have no idea what's coming, a pokemon that would counter DDmence might get Ko'ed by a mixmence or if you send in a pokemon that could kill Mixmence, they might set up DD and KO you.

Anyone who's switching a Mence into a +5 Cursepert (who the hell lets Swampert get to +5 anyway?) or a Porygon-Z after an agility is an idiot, and you shouldn't be using those examples as to why Salamence is so predictable.

 

[sce4]

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned but a 'surge' in electric types seems imminent. Specially defensive Zapdos can handle much of the speculated metagame, taking out bulky waters and checking Infernape with relative ease. Agility variants can also take out most of the metagame anyway but with latias removed it will easily sweep teams. Similarly I believe Specs Jolt, who was experiencing a rise anyway, will be spamming thunderbolt and baton pass left, right and centre. I also feel Rotom will have more freedom with a probable decrease in Scarftar, though I think Toxic may become more useful then Will-o-Wisp on some appliances depending on their special move. This may give Electivire an opportunity to shine alongside the increase in Gyarados. Not sure how this will affect Togekiss, if it actually does happen.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but I only skimmed through the thread skippin a few pages.

 

[akarias]

I think generally speaking the reason togekiss isn't used much is because it shares a lot of weaknesses with pokes that are generally considered better, such as salamence and gyarados. That and in the past metagame scarftar owns it, as do jolteon and gliscor. The last nail on the proverbial coffin is that jirachi does a lot of the things togekiss does (paraflinch, setup sweeper) better, if not just because of better speed and SR weak (and immune to toxic).

That being said, if togekiss fits what you need on a team, it's quite beastly, since it's SO hard to take down without ttar/stab electric moves, and can get some outstanding coverage as well. It's just having an electric weak is tough when you need to share it with bulky waters, ice weak is tough when you share it with dragons/gliscor, and lastly outside of earthquake togekiss has a really hard time switching in.

Lastly, I do feel electric types have found bloomed in viability since the banning of latias. I have a team which runs toxic spikes along raikou and it completely runs through teams, stall or balanced, running through the new popular sets such as infernape, starmie, and zapdos, with extreme ease.

 

[blasphemy1]

What are you talking about? Aura Sphere from a 0 SpA Togekiss does 123% minimum. And Togekiss can come out on EQs.

You forgot to take into account the Sandstorm boost for Tyranitar. Modest 152 SpA vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar does 87.7% maximum.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Zapdos in general, has taken a big hit in recent metagames. Going into Platinum, it was one of the most popular pokemon (I think it even got into the top 10), with Heatran / Celebi / Zapdos / Bulky Water (Usually Swampert, Vaporeon or Suicune) being the central figures in the extremely popular Bulky-Offensive Style that rose to the top in the wake of Garchomp's banning.

With the introduction of Latias as both a zapdos counter and competitor (special attackers that could use sub/roost), as well as ever increasing competition for a team slot with the extremely popular Rotom-A, Zappy had a huge fall from grace. As fellow "Bulky Electric," both with resistance/immunity to Fighting and Ground and access to Fire coverage, Rotom-H and Zapdos are almost direct competitors in terms of a getting a team slot.

While Rotom-A is still around, with its spin-blocking abilities in addition to immunity to Dynamic Punch and access to W-o-W, reflect and trick, Zapdos does have advantages. Most obviously, superior base stats (especially offensively), with 125 sp.ATK and 100 speed. Reliable recovery in the form of Roost as well as access to moves like U-Turn/Baton Pass also add a lot of its utility.

Zappy just might make a pretty big come back with Latias banned.

 

[Rhiehn]

Suicune, Vaporeon and Bulky Gyara don't have too many problems with Infernape, and they're all used enough to keep it from tearing through teams.

 

[joehigashi]

@Chou: I've been using Zapdos a lot and it's pretty darn effective without Latias in the way..SR still ruins him though

 

[PK Gaming]

While Rotom-A is still around, with its spin-blocking abilities in addition to immunity to Dynamic Punch and access to W-o-W, reflect and trick, Zapdos does have advantages. Most obviously, superior base stats (especially offensively), with 125 sp.ATK and 100 speed. Reliable recovery in the form of Roost as well as access to moves like U-Turn/Baton Pass also add a lot of its utility.

Zappy just might make a pretty big come back with Latias banned.

Mostly agreed. Rotom simply isn't a good enough counter to Machamp. (Due to Payback literally destroying) which is more incentive to bring out the Dusknoir!

I've been using Infernape for some time now, and I cannot for the life of me choose between Vacuum wave and Close Combat. For one, Blissey's are being a lot more daring now. I can't just use Infernapes rep to scare them away. Still, Scarf Tyranitars are still somewhat common and being guaranteed on taking them out is pretty neat. Decisions, Decisions...

 

[Chou Toshio]

If it's Tyranitar you're trying to kill, Mach Punch seems the better move to me (due to s-stream boost), especially with the intimidating salamence gone.

 

[shrang]

Tell me I've made a mistake here somewhere:

+2 LO Naive Infernape Focus Blast vs 4/252 Calm Blissey: 78.22% - 92.02%

Now I don't see all that many reasons to run Close Combat any more... Especially since that blob is OHKO'd after two SR switch-ins.

 

[Lucalibur]

it even got a chance to ohko with only 1 SR switch in, that is the power of STAB boosted fighting moves. i would prefer a physical set with CC, mach punch/stone edge, flare blitz/stone edge and SD though.