CAP 10 CAP 10 - Main Typing Discussion

[Midou]

Naturally, water and steel are very good choices when it comes to a defensive pokemon. CAP10's concept though, goes much beyond that. Certain posters aren't taking this into account. My arguments against steel and water are not because they are common types, but because I believe they will not enable us to explore the intricacies of the metagame. The primary reason being that they have been exploited and explored themselves so much already. These types have good synergy with many other types that have been explored.

Poison and fighting have limits, but they excel at what they do. With the typing of this CAP, we of course don't want to give it an obvious way of being defeated. I am very against forcing its typing to contain MANY resistances, as this isn't vital. Yes, steel has 11 resistances and an immunity, but does that automatically entail it to be a good utility counter? Of course not. As stated before, Zapdos is a prime example of something close to what we're looking for, yet it has 2 weaknesses (both being above average attacking types coverage-wise), 5 resists and 1 immunity. The important thing to take note of is that of these resists and immunities, most are very valuable to carry (ground, fighting, steel, bug).

Though there are arguments that water and steel provide more flexibility, they force us to employ many already used options (levitate, dual water/ground, flash fire, etc). This actually LIMITS what our later options are in the ability/stats stages. And this is why I encourage every to be more unconventional about their thinking. Here's to sum up.

Cons against Water or Steel as Primary type:
-Already explored avenues will provide little new insight to metagame
-Limit flexibility in terms of ways countering specific threats
-Encourages set mindset for future discussions, something we don't necessarily need this early on in the process

All in all, I believe ultimately choosing one of these types for a primary will limit creativity which is one of the pillars of CAP. Some of the arguments against multitype can be made here.

On a completely different vein, an unexplored option would be an alternate approach of multitype - different forms. I'm thinking about wormadam. Perhaps this will be a way of addressing the issue of utility, using a specific form to counter a specific threat. When thinking of the general concept, this idea seems great, but I'm not sure how far we are willing to reach to grasp it. It's clear we have many capable, creative thinkers here, but I'm not sure we want to create more than one pokemon! Inexperience with CAP leads me to say that, but also I am always against self-constructed limits to creativity in a creative process. This idea though, just thinking of the possibilities is pretty staggering.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Although Multitype is out of the picture, that does not mean this pokemon's typing will be set in stone in battle. There are many abilities and/or moves in Pokemon that allow a pokemon to change its type in battle, and I think this concept is BEGGING for us to explore them. Yes, Multitype was a slam-dunk to implement this concept, but that was the problem with it -- it was too much of a slam dunk, really. But, a pokemon with mutable typing is still on the table for discussion in later steps, and I fully expect us to explore it.

So, with that said, I am looking for base typing that can provide a solid foundation for a pokemon to switch into battle with impunity, and then make a tactical decision to utilize one or more of its "special tricks" to gain advantage on the foe. The "special tricks" will be decided later, and I'm not going to poll-jump to discuss them here. But the exact special tricks don't need to be decided here. We just need to give this a typing that allows us to have some options later. I think the typing should exhibit the following:

• Good resistances. This pokemon will be used to counter pokemon, so it is likely to be switching in a bit, most likely taking damage on the way in. In this regard, resistances are key. Resistances afford much more switching flexibility than lack of weakness, IMO. But, I know others may disagree on that point.
  
  
• No weakness to Stealth Rock. Switching in and taking damage is hard enough, without losing 25% or more when the omniprescent rocks are on the field. If this pokemon is weak to SR, then we will have a very hard time allowing this pokemon to do its job. "Spin support" is oft-mentioned, but not realistically available to most OU teams.
  
  
• No Pursuit weakness. Since this pokemon is a counter, many people probably think Pursuit weakness is negligible. I can see that argument, but I simply can't get over the fact that weakness to Pursuit has proven time and again to be an almost insurmountable hurdle for most pokemon. So, if this is pursuit weak, I won't say we're doomed, but it will likely make our job much tougher.
  
  
• At least one good attacking STAB. Even though I am counting on us to come up with a way to give this pokemon some clever way to pull the rug out from under the opponent, I think the pokemon has to have some attacking credibility, by virtue of its publically known typing alone. This pokemon's typing needs to set a baseline expectation with the opponent, and be at least be somewhat threatening in that regard. This will force the opponent to choose between dealing with the "known threat" (the base typing and STAB) or the "unknown threat" (the special tricks we have not yet decided). That dichotomy will be the crux of CAP10's effectiveness. So, we need to make sure it has at least one good STAB, at a minimum.

I have two typings in mind for the main type. And, not surprisingly, I think both of these types could end up working perfectly together. Although, we could choose either one of these, and still have more options for secondary typing later, and meet the criteria I mention above.

Electric or Water

Both of these types have nice resistances, and are a solid attacking STAB. In combination, they create a neutrality to Electric, which could be an added bonus, if we ultimately decided to use them both together. But separately, they can combine well with a variety of other types to achieve some interesting effects. I think either of these types would be a good starting point for CAP 10.

 

[Zystral]

Bleh, late to this discussion >: I'll try not to write too much.
Good call on banning Multitype though; no matter how good it is.

Obviously, as the idea is to be able to switch into just about anything and retaliate, it will primarily need to revolve around Resistances and Immunities.

For this, I would suggest Water. It has four resistances to its two weaknesses, both of which can be worked around with either a secondary typing or an ability.
Three out of its four resistances; Fire, Ice and Water itself will definitely aid it in switching into some of the hard hitters in the metagame.

However, despite the general usefulness of Water, we may need to look specifically at some of the priorities CAP 10 will need.
For starters, a resistance to Stealth Rock will probably be appreciated; it's no good switching something in repeatedly if it's going to be worn down quickly. Ground is also an attractive prospect, as it sports an immunity to Electric. Fighting however, has more overall resistances and so is the choice I would opt for.

Other reasonable defensive types would be Flying, despite the Stealth Rock weakness and - don't kill me - Grass. Yes, it seems silly, but we get a Ground and a Water resistance. Fire and Flying are the notable weaks, as is Bug, but again, the Secondary typing and the ability may help work around that.

However, no type is without it's pros or cons, so we have to be aware, that there will be no ultimate typing for CAP 10, as every typing will have it's own weaknesses, no matter how we address it.

This also may be jumping the gun, but Colour Change is always an option too.

 

[Bucky]

Levitate exists for a reason. And Celebi already has a ton of weaknesses of its own, the majority of them being reasonably common attacking types. Yet does it take much damage from random attacks of these types? Er... no. Another thing you missed... strategic switching.

@Raikaria

You missed Fighting, which is a hell of a lot more common than Ghost. You missed Bug, which is just as common (seriously, U-turn gets spammed a decent amount of times). So that's 2 remotely useful resistances from Poison vs. 1 immunity from Normal which is pretty meh to be honest. Now try telling us that Poison is worse resistance-wise than Normal.

Strategic switching can only take you so far, and Celebi enjoys the priviledge of having a base of 100 in every stat--something we can't guarantee for Cap10 as of yet. I really don't like the idea of this Pokemon's ability being limited to Levitate, this concept has soooo much more potential than that as far as creativity goes. Of course there's the idea of Poison + Flying, but we can't guarantee what the secondary typing will be, and a weakness to Electric, Ice, and Rock is just icky. I just don't think Poison as the main type would be a good way to go.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Eh - I don't like Steel types. It's less the fact that most of them are unnatural, even for Pokemon, but more the fact that Steel is the most OU-dominating type in the metagame, considering almost every fully-evolved Steel type is OU. Well, Steel and Dragon, but you get my point.

Untrue. Bastiodon, Aggron, Steelix, Probopass, Registeel, Mawile, etc. and I listed a sizable chunk of Steels too. Anyways, just because a type is popular and valuable for a team doesn't mean that it cannot be used to great effect for this CAP. Popularity means nothing if it sets up the CAP to do exactly what it needs to do. Granted, "we don't want just another X" is a viable argument, no Steel at present is set up to utility counter Pokemon, but rather serve as very specific counters to Pokemon at large. There's much we can yet learn about Steel by taking this venue.

As stated before, Zapdos is a prime example of something close to what we're looking for, yet it has 2 weaknesses (both being above average attacking types coverage-wise), 5 resists and 1 immunity. The important thing to take note of is that of these resists and immunities, most are very valuable to carry (ground, fighting, steel, bug).

Rock is an amazing attacking type, only even with Ice in terms of offensive viability. Zapdos is also weak to Ice, which is the other most offensively potent attacking type. Furthermore, Zapdos isn't a utility counter at all, it's just a wall. It cannot be tailored with its movepool or stats to immediately counter any Pokemon. Just because Zapdos makes a good wall on either end of the spectrum because of its stat distribution and lack of weaknesses doesn't make it a serviceable example for CAP10.

Don't get me wrong, Zapdos is great and all, but it's predictable. CAP10 needs to be able to tailor itself to beat specific threats while opening it up to others. This is in particular why I feel that having key immunities while also having key resistances is crucial for CAP10. It can't and shouldn't be able to successfully wall a lot at once. (even physically defensive Zapdos fares well against many weaker special attackers) This is why I feel that having key weaknesses and numerous resistances is the path to take as opposed to being hit neutrally everywhere.

Steel sets itself up to be that Pokemon. With all of its weaknesses able to be softened by a secondary type and/or abilities and/or its stat spread, meanwhile retaining significant resistances to all but 3 of the core attacking types, will allow CAP10 to reliably switch in to entire sets a Pokemon can carry and retaliate with its own attacks or crippling status. This is crucial, especially if CAP10 expects to be a reliable counter over an extended portion of the game and not just for the first switch-in. (This is another reason why being hit neutrally by virtually everything is going to be problematic for this Pokemon)

Ground is also an attractive prospect, as it sports an immunity to Electric.

Ground also sports terrible weaknesses to Water, Ice, and to a lesser extent Grass - the former two of which are types this Pokemon is going to need to be at the very least neutral to. As a starting type, I don't think ground is setting up CAP10 to be a reliable or valuable utility counter.

 

[ZagZag]

I am going to support Poison. It has several key resistances, especially when combined with levitate, and is also a poor STAB type. It is everything that is needed for a utility counter

 

[Raqib]

I am going to support Poison. It has several key resistances, especially when combined with levitate, and is also a poor STAB type. It is everything that is needed for a utility counter

Poison + Levitate is a fine idea and all, but you can't rule out that there are better types and abilities to consider.

A Grass type with Drought, or a Water type with Drizzle would be perfect for an OU team that would require Sunny Day/Rain Dance; and there have already been several Water suggestions.

Grass is often overlooked, and it's mainly because it's dragged in the mud by the Poison typing.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

A Grass type with Drought, or a Water type with Drizzle would be perfect for an OU team that would require Sunny Day/Rain Dance; and there have already been several Water suggestions.

CAP10 is not a weather supporter, it is a utility counter.

Grass is often overlooked, and it's mainly because it's dragged in the mud by the Poison typing.

Rather, weaknesses to fire and ice with 3 other weaknesses and without compensation by key resistances is what drags it in the mud. Resistance to ground is nice, but it still feels the sting of entry hazards, so it's not quite as useful here when compared to a Levitate user or a Flying-type.

 

[P_K]

On a completely different vein, an unexplored option would be an alternate approach of multitype - different forms. I'm thinking about wormadam. Perhaps this will be a way of addressing the issue of utility, using a specific form to counter a specific threat.

I support this for reasons obvious to those who have kept track of all CAP10 conversations. <.<

All in all, from what it appears, the four most popular type choices are:
-Water
-Poison
-Fighting
-Normal

Steel and Electric also have a little recognition behind them

What I'd like to bring up are the Flying and Psychic types. Psychic and Flying, along with Normal, are the only types not yet used in CAP. Flying has an immunity to ground, but at the same time, faces the omnipotent threat of Stealth Rock. Psychics on the other hand are unable to do damage to one type, but otherwise is very well rounded. And even at that, there is Miracle Eye...

Now, whilst the majority of my argument was in favor of Psychic and Flying, I'm going to have to say my support goes to Normal, for one reason: It's Normal, in the very sense of the word- it has few weaknesses and few defenses- perfect for a customizable Pokemon!

EDIT: I apologize for "Poll-Jumping" (If I am... I honestly aren't too sure what that means) but one argument against the Normal type is it's inability to harm Ghost-types. I'd like to point out two remedies: Foresight and Scrappy.

 

[Raqib]

Rather, weaknesses to fire and ice with 3 other weaknesses and without compensation by key resistances is what drags it in the mud. Resistance to ground is nice, but it still feels the sting of entry hazards, so it's not quite as useful here when compared to a Levitate user or a Flying-type.

Fire, Ice, Poison, Bug, and Flying are all weaknesses of Grass; that much is true, but Grass types are also built to be sturdy; which is perfect for a Utility Counter. You've got to consider the secondary type as well, say we have Water (since it's one of the more heavily suggested types); it automatically eliminates two of the more popular weaknesses.

 

[Objection]

If Grass types are built to be sturdy, that is because of their stats more than their typing. That's not to say that typing doesn't come into it, only that typing without good stats accomplishes nothing.

Anyway, I think what we should consider is how bad is each weakness? For example, Fighting is favoured because weaknesses to Flying and Psychic are not considered bad, whereas Electric's sole weakness to Ground is considered much worse.

Basically, what do we really not want CAP10 to be weak to?

 

[Zystral]

There is an important point to consider to Normal type; it has only one weakness is Fighting and a handy immunity to Ghost. However, and it's large however; It has no other resistances. At all. So even boosted neutral hits are going to be stinging a fair deal. P_K, the fact that you can hit Ghosts with STAB Normals isn't going to help. If anything, it's detriminal to our CAP by placing it in a neutral direction.

It should be noteworthy that unless we give it a helpful secondary typing and a helpful ability, Steel is not a good idea. Fire, Fighting and Ground are very common and will not be worth the resistance to Dragon and immunity to Poison.
This limits creativity almost as much as Multitype; you need something to counteract Steel's weaknesses otherwise you will have problems on your hands.

I think Fighting is a good point to work from, as it allows our CAP to hit quite a number of potential that it will be countering, frrom Tyranitar to even Blissey. The resistance to Stealth Rock is a plus as well.

Psychic itself also isn't without its weaknesses. It has glaring weaknesses to the likes of U-Turn (Flygon, Scizor), Pursuit (Tyranitar, Scizor, etc.), Shadow Ball (Gengar, Rotom). Fighting / Psychic may stop the Bug and Dark weaknesses but then adds a Flying weakness to what would otherwise be a very good typing combo. Take a look at Gallade; two STABs in Fighting / Psychic alone let it be a devastating sweeper.
Sadly, that's not what we want. Defensively, Fighting / Psychic has potential, with the only common (note: common) weakness being Ghost.

But, despite that, it's worth mentioning once again; Having more resistances and less immunities is worth more than having less resistances and more immunities. Less resistance means overall you are more vulnerable to a larger number of things, and thus the 'counter' aspect is lost.

 

[Midou]

Rock is an amazing attacking type, only even with Ice in terms of offensive viability. Zapdos is also weak to Ice, which is the other most offensively potent attacking type. Furthermore, Zapdos isn't a utility counter at all, it's just a wall. It cannot be tailored with its movepool or stats to immediately counter any Pokemon. Just because Zapdos makes a good wall on either end of the spectrum because of its stat distribution and lack of weaknesses doesn't make it a serviceable example for CAP10.

Don't get me wrong, Zapdos is great and all, but it's predictable. CAP10 needs to be able to tailor itself to beat specific threats while opening it up to others. This is in particular why I feel that having key immunities while also having key resistances is crucial for CAP10. It can't and shouldn't be able to successfully wall a lot at once. (even physically defensive Zapdos fares well against many weaker special attackers) This is why I feel that having key weaknesses and numerous resistances is the path to take as opposed to being hit neutrally everywhere.

No one is arguing that rock and ice are not fantastic attacking types, but they are usually unstabbed and used as coverage moves. Granted, some of your points about Zapdos are valid, as it is predictable and a wall. However, I'm unsure your stance on some things. You say that CAP10 should have key resistances, immunities, and weaknesses? Also your characteristics are confusing when you switch from "can't be immediate counter to any pokemon" to "countering specific threats and opening itself to others" and finally to "reliably countering an extended portion of the game". Yet, in many ways, your anti-example of Zapdos fits all of these. In addition, its limited but concise movepool enable it to counter very specific targets such as Scizor, Lucario, certain forms of Salamence, and even its would be counter Swampert. All depending on changes in movepool, EVs, and nature.

Fighting is a top-choice in terms of what we're aiming to achieve as it has many characteristics we're looking for.
+Resistance to stealth rock
+Resistance to u-turn
+Resistance to pursuit
+Powerful offensive stab: Hits 5 types SE, tied only with ground, and why immune pokemon were designed for these types
+Weaknesses are easily dealt with, and don't necessarily even have to be dealt with

Steel is similar to fighting in that it has the same 3 resistances, but one or more of these are usually forfeited with a secondary typing. And it does not have the same offensive prowess nor the flexibility in countering weaknesses. It is true that steel has not seen the limit of its use and should be further investigated, but for CAP10 it's the lesser option in comparison to fighting.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Fighting is a top-choice in terms of what we're aiming to achieve as it has many characteristics we're looking for.
+Resistance to stealth rock
+Resistance to u-turn
+Resistance to pursuit
+Powerful offensive stab: Hits 5 types SE, tied only with ground, and why immune pokemon were designed
+Weaknesses are easily dealt with, and don't necessarily even have to be dealt with

All things I agree with and have even attested to in my previous posts, but it's not enough I think. It needs to be able to switch into a sizable list of other attacking types if it's going to be countering specific threats. How do you switch into Starmie without resistances to water, ice, or electric? How do you switch into Gyarados without resistances to water, ground, ice, or flying? I feel that these are problems that - while possible to remedy slightly with a secondary type - will create lasting weakness in CAP10. Even (thinking ahead) Fighting/Steel, the secondary typing that offers the numerous necessary resistances, falls short defensively because of the two types not covering each other's weaknesses effectively.

A primary steel type Pokemon starts CAP10 off with 11 resistances and an important immunity for a defensive Pokemon. (Poison, so no Toxic) Steel also carries all of the major pros that you listed for fighting - resistance to u-turn, resistance to pursuit, resistance to SR. It's STAB is weak, but since it's looking to counter individual Pokemon anyways, those moves should be chosen from other types anyways. (Possibly with its secondary typing's STAB in there) Furthermore, the weaknesses in Steel are all able to be dealt with by a combination of any of the following: stat distribution, secondary-typing, or ability immunities. This, again, allows us to be incredibly creative with CAP10 while still sporting the necessary resistances for this thing to switch in on the countless threats it can potentially be countering.

 

[viol and bass]

You guys are focused too much on resistances, it seems to me. Remember that a secondary typing will almost certainly be utilized. We can deal with them then. For now we have to set up a base that has few weaknesses and maybe a few resistances. But don't worry about not being able to switch in on specific pokémon.... That can be dealt with later.

 

[Str0ngbad]

I agree that steel would limit us more in the ability stage then water where as, to make up for having less resistances, water will be more limited in the stat distribution stage and I think that secondary typing is going to be very limited regardless of the first type we pick. I do think water gives us more room to be creative however since the ability is one of the most characteristics that leaves the most room for creativity and steel would need to be centered around reducing its weaknesses. There are similar pros and cons for each.

I do NOT feel that using a type that is less common in OU makes the project any more creative in the least. Maybe more difficult/challenging but we are trying to create something new and useful, not eccentric. If anything, discounting common types is a limitation on the creative process itself.

Also, while I do get tired of the type centralization of the meta game, it is not this CAP's job to change that. This pokemon should be the best damn Utility Counter we can make. If that requires water, steel; even if it required dragon (which thank God it doesn't) then we should look in that direction.

A lot of decent cases have been made for more types than I would have expected and I have been persuaded from a steel bias over to the water side for now by some very good arguments although I still think they are close and both very viable options. I don't think there is much more to discuss here since we are getting closer and closer to poll-jumping trying to explain how various types can be made viable. It is going to be a fun poll.

EDIT: and sorry Sunshine, I feel that the resistances are most important at this stage and that the weaknesses left can be easier handled in the second stage. It is very much wishful thinking that fighting, poison, etc will be able to switch in on all of the attacks that it is neither resistant or weak to. We can either leave this stage of the process with a few weaknesses to patch or a whole multitude of neutralities to patch. The first option just makes more sense to me.

 

[Zystral]

You guys are focused too much on resistances, it seems to me. Remember that a secondary typing will almost certainly be utilized. We can deal with them then. For now we have to set up a base that has few weaknesses and maybe a few resistances. But don't worry about not being able to switch in on specific pokémon.... That can be dealt with later.

I don't think you understand; If you have a type without a sizeable chunk of resistances at first, it's not going to build up with a secondary typing.

Glaring weaknesses aren't a problem; we can customize it to overlook this only if it's threatened. For instance, if it had a x4 Electric weakness when we wanted to stop the likes of Gyarados or Salamence - do you think it makes THAT much of an impact?
Having several resistances, however, means it can switch into almost anything. The movepool and EVs would then be tuned to stop whatever it is you're trying to counter. Without resistances, it dies easily and fails as a counter.

Even if we chose something like Steel, to need to finely select a second type to counter-act Steel's weaknesses is a bad thing; you're predetermining types already.
Regardless, CAP 10, as a Utility Counter really shouldn't be afraid of anything. Because of that, a weakness is negligible if it's either 1. a rare attacking type such as Steel or Psychic or 2. used only by a small handful of Pokémon (e.g. Flying is only ever used by the likes of Togekiss or Gyarados). This is the case especially if the typing given offers plenty of useful resistances.

 

[Lightsabre]

To throw my two cents in. I've read some great stuff so far, so I don't know how well mine'll add up to it.

I actualy want us to stray AWAY from steel, seeing as EQ and Close Combat are HUGE moves to be weak to. Water sounds like a very good type to me, seeing as the electic weakness is the only thing we really have to worry about(ignoring other CAPs). Normal seems to lean to far away from resistances for me, and once again Close Combat or super power will keep it from being very effective. So, looking into all of the options, I would opt for one of two types

Fighting Type- Fighting type seems to have few resistances, but they are key when facing opponents like Tyranitar and, given that fighting types have one of the largest movepools(probably third to Normal and Dragon) we can be justified in giving it the tools it needs to do what we need it to do.

Poison Type- The poison type would work well, albeit with a required drawback. the secondary typing or its ability must give it at leat nuetrality to ground type to be able to counter anything using EQ. But otherwise Poison is an excelent type to go with.

Note, I'd also support water if it comes to it, but we already have one deffensive water type, so we ought to look into a different typing

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Even if we chose something like Steel, to need to finely select a second type to counter-act Steel's weaknesses is a bad thing; you're predetermining types already.

But that happens anyway. No matter what you pick for your primary type for CAP10, unless the weaknesses are virtually non-existent in standard OU, they need to be adjusted for. Furthermore, you aren't "predetermining" the second type, since you could just as easily account for a weakness via an ability instead of a second type. This still offers flexibility for creativity while at the same time covering as many threats as possible immediately with the primary type.

Regardless, CAP 10, as a Utility Counter really shouldn't be afraid of anything. Because of that, a weakness is negligible if it's either 1. a rare attacking type such as Steel or Psychic or 2. used only by a small handful of Pokémon (e.g. Flying is only ever used by the likes of Togekiss or Gyarados). This is the case especially if the typing given offers plenty of useful resistances.

I feel that it should have the capacity to fear nothing, but depending on how exactly a specific player tunes its EVs and abilities, it will end up fearing something.

I do NOT feel that using a type that is less common in OU makes the project any more creative in the least. Maybe more difficult/challenging but we are trying to create something new and useful, not eccentric. If anything, discounting common types is a limitation on the creative process itself.

Agreed.

A lot of decent cases have been made for more types than I would have expected and I have been persuaded from a steel bias over to the water side for now by some very good arguments although I still think they are close and both very viable options. I don't think there is much more to discuss here since we are getting closer and closer to poll-jumping trying to explain how various types can be made viable. It is going to be a fun poll.

Agreed again. I think the first poll should include Steel, Water, Fighting, Poison as the primary types for the first poll. I think that Poison might not be the best especially next to Fighting, but a solid enough case can be made for it to make it viable.

 

[Raikaria]

Sorry, due to the lack of posion types being used, outside of Gengar, in general, who's immune to Fighting anyway, I forgot about the Fighting Resist. Still, the Earthquake weakness is crippling.

I was just thowing Grass as a possible type. Ice may be a decent attacking type, but Ice STAB is not common at all, mainly due to ice types being made of paper, most of the time. Fire, on the other hand, could be far more crippling, I do agree with that fact. Every type has downsides though.

Anywany, the way the argument is going, I am still leaning towards Water. Yes, water types are done to death, but, for the concept, I feel it is the best starting base. From there, we can work on ability, and secondary type, to make the pokemon more able to counter things.

However, let's take into account, this thing needs some achilles heels. After all, if it's mean to fail against what it can't counter, it does need some weakness, or else, it'll be hard to counter in it's own right.

 

[petrie911]

• Good resistances.
• No weakness to Stealth Rock.
• No Pursuit weakness.
• At least one good attacking STAB.

While these are definitely good points, I think an important one is missing.

No weakness to U-turn

U-turn is used a lot in the metagame, and even a weak U-turn is going to hurt when you're taking 2x damage from it. This Pokemon is going to be doing a lot of switching in, and if it wants to counter a Pokemon that commonly carries U-turn, we can't have it taking a sizable chunk of damage while the opponent gets to gain momentum by switching in his own counter.

Since we want to take low damage from Pursuit, Stealth Rock, and U-turn, it stands to reason that Dark, Bug, and Rock resists would be very useful. Only Steel and Fighting resist both types. Fighting comes with a great STAB and weaknesses to 2 rarely-used attacking types. Steel comes with a boatload of great resistances, but 3 truly awful weaknesses that are rather difficult to get rid of. Not to mention the fact that everyone is already prepared for Steel types, and any Steel type is risking getting Magnezone'd.

I'd also like to put in something for Poison. Poison is actually a really nice defensive type. Fighting and Bug resists are very useful, as is immunity to Toxic. While Ground weakness is a problem, Levitate fixes that right up. And let's face it, Levitate is going to be a strong contender for ability anyways, what with EQ and Spikes immunity. Poison STAB being terrible is a much bigger problem, and one that really can't be avoided without giving it Tinted Lens or something, which isn't going to happen.

I don't like Water. Yeah, Water's a great defensive type; we know that. What do we learn from having a defensive water type that we didn't already? Not to mention the fact that Grass and Electric are the favorite coverage types for a reason.

Overall, I like Fighting and Poison for the primary type. Both bring good things to the table, and OU is already inundated with bulky Waters and Steels.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and try to make an organised viewpoint of every option available to us as well as examining the most popular types, by listing a bunch of the desirable typings that are available to us at present. By desirable, I mean those types or type combinations that have two weaknesses or fewer. I believe that the best results here will be won and lost with our collective ability to remove CAP10's weaknesses, as giving it a severe, permanant weakness - even to something like Psychic-type - could mean its downfall, and I do not believe anything with more than three resistances, at the end of it all, will succeed in fulfilling the concept. The base typings that fit this basic criterion are thus:

Normal
Electric
Dark
Dragon
Poison
Fighting
Ghost
Water

Not a lot, but it is no coincidence that all of these are the most popular typings at present, and if I am honest these are pretty much the types that we should be debating most rigorously, and that is what we are doing, which is encouraging. Each of them constitutes a solid base upon which we can build a Pokemon that has the potential, but not ability, to truly define "Utility Counter". Continuing along this train of thought, if I may jump ahead for a second, these are the types and type combinations that also fit this idea of low weakness total:

[COLOR=black]Ghost/Dark (NONE) – Resists Poison, Normal, Fighting[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=black]Normal (Fighting) – Resists Ghost[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electric (Ground) – Resists Electric, Flying, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Normal/Ghost (Dark) – Resists Normal, Fighting, Ghost, Bug, Poison[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Water/Ground (Grass) – Resists Fire, Electric, Poison, Rock, Steel [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Water/Dragon (Dragon) – Resists Fire, Water, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Poison/Dark (Ground) – Resists Grass, Poison, Psychic, Ghost, Dark[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Psychic/Dark (Bug) – Resists Psychic[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Bug/Steel (Fire) – Resists Normal, Grass, Ice, Poison, Psychic, Bug, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, Steel[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=black]Dark (Bug, Fighting) – Resists Psychic, Ghost, Dark[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Dragon (Dragon, Ice) – Resists Fire, Water, Electric, Grass[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Fighting (Flying, Psychic) – Resists Bug, Rock, Dark[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Ghost (Dark, Ghost) – Resists Bug, Poison, Normal, Fighting[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Poison (Ground, Psychic) – Resists Bug, Poison, Grass, Fighting[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Water (Electric, Grass) – Resists Fire, Water, Ice, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Normal/Electric (Ground, Fighting) – Resists Electric, Flying, Steel, Ghost[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Normal/Poison (Ground, Psychic) – Resists Bug, Poison, Grass, Ghost[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Normal/Psychic (Dark, Bug) – Resists Psychic, Ghost[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Normal/Dark (Bug, Fighting) – Resists Psychic, Ghost, Dark[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Fire/Ground (Water, Ground) – Resists Fire, Electric, Poison, Bug, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Water/Electric (Grass, Ground) – Resists Fire, Water, Ice, Flying, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Water/Flying (Electric, Rock) – Resists Fire, Water, Fighting, Ground[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electric/Fighting (Ground, Psychic) – Resists Electric, Bug, Rock, Dark, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electric/Poison (Ground, Psychic) – Resists Electric, Grass, Fighting, Poison, Flying, Bug, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electric/Flying (Ice, Rock) – Resists Grass, Fighting, Ground, Flying, Bug, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electric/Bug (Fire, Rock) – Resists Electric, Grass, Fighting, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Grass/Steel (Fire, Fighting) – Resists Normal, Water, Grass, Electric, Poison, Psychic, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Fighting/Psychic (Flying, Ghost) – Resists Rock, Fighting[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Fighting/Dark (Fighting, Flying) – Resists Psychic, Rock, Ghost, Dark[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Poison/Steel (Fire, Ground) – Resists Normal, Grass, Ice, Poison, Flying, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Ground/Flying (Water, Ice) – Resists Electric, Fighting, Poison, Ground, Bug[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Ground/Dragon (Ice, Dragon) – Resists Fire, Electric, Poison, Rock[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Psychic/Ghost (Dark, Ghost) – Resists Normal, Fighting, Poison, Psychic[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Psychic/Steel (Ground, Fire) – Resists Normal, Grass, Ice, Poison, Flying, Psychic, Rock, Dragon, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Ghost/Steel (Ground, Fire) – Resists Normal, Grass, Ice, Fighting, Poison, Flying, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Dragon, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Dragon/Steel (Ground, Fighting) – Resists Normal, Water, Electric, Grass, Poison, Flying, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dark, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Steel/Flying (Fire, Electric) – Resists Normal, Grass, Poison, Ground, Flying, Psychic, Bug, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, Steel[/COLOR]

Now this is massive scope for different ideas. The way I should like this to pan out is in a way similar to Bronzong - a Pokemon with one or two weaknesses that can remove its weakness - or else choose to remove one of its weaknesses - by virtue of ability. For example, were we to have a Fire/Ground Pokemon, I can imagine its two abilities being Dry Skin and Levitate. This table is quite useful in determining the viability of a typing past the first poll,

Examining this table again, as well as the very basic types that are most suitable for the role, and then removing the types that do not have good resistances or STAB, or have a Stealth Rock/Pursuit weakness, we can remove Normal-type due to no resistances (plus horrible synergy with other types) as well as Ghost-type (for the Pursuit wekaness). This leaves us with Electric, Dark, Dragon, Poison, Fighting, and Water as the six best types. Now if I will examine the individual merits of each of these types:

Electric
Weaknesses: Ground
Resistances: Electric, Flying, Steel
Pairs well with: Normal, Water, Fighting, Poison, Flying, Bug
Comments: As a solo type it has only one weakness, which can be easily covered with an ability, and it also has a very high potential to go along with other types. To me, this is one of the best options, however it comes at a price of the fact that it, and the combinations it forms, do not have many great resistances to speak of, although Thunderbolt and Bullet Punch resistance is noteworthy.

Dark
Weaknesses: Fighting, Bug
Resistances: Ghost, Psychic, Dark
Pairs well with: Ghost, Poison, Psychic, Normal, Fighting
Comments: To be honest I have to say no here. Dark-type resistances and poor partners besides Poison (which is already mentioned below, so is not particularly forgiving), means that it isn't really worth bothering with.

Dragon
Weaknesses: Dragon, Ice
Resistances: Fire, Water, Grass, Electric
Pairs well with: Water, Ground, Steel
Comments: Aah, Dragons. Really the only reason I don't like it is because of the weakness to Dragon-type moves; if an ability mitigates it then perhaps it will be worthwhile, but from a standpoint at this moment I have to say no.

Poison
Weaknesses: Psychic, Ground
Resistances: Fighting, Bug, Poison, Grass
Pairs well with: Dark, Normal, Electric, Steel
Comments: Pretty good resistances, and it pairs reasonably well with other types. What really lets Poison down for me is the lack of a good, solid STAB move to use against the majority of the metagames, particularly the large number of Steel-types (and if we're not careful, Heatran will walk all over it). However, for me the resistances available are better than those that Fighting has to offer, and the STAB crisis is less extreme, so I'll put it forwards for appraisal readily.

Fighting
Weaknesses: Flying, Psychic
Resistances: Bug, Rock, Dark
Pairs well with: Electric, Psychic, Dark
Comments: Some of the best resistances of the bunch, although it pairs poorly and its weaknesses are difficult to remove, not to mention a VERY significant lack of a good STAB for a defensive Pokemon (Close Combat has low PP and lowers defences, Cross Chop has low PP and accuracy, Brick Break has poor power and Low Kick is best forgotten about).

Water
Weaknesses: Electric, Grass
Resistances: Fire, Water, Ice, Steel
Pairs well with: Ground, Dragon, Electric, Flying
Comments: In my opinion the very best choice of the lot. It pairs very well, it has a very good set of resistances (as set by the bulky Water precedent), the weaknesses are easy to overcome (just make it really light to avoid Grass Knot, and it's really only got one weakness), and it has good neutral STAB to use (which can easily be paired with Ice Beam or whatever). The only problem I can see is that we already have something a bit like this in the form of Arghonaut, which may dampen what we can learn from creating yet another bulky Water.

So, in conclusion, I'm advocating Electric, Water and Poison as potential primary typings. Take with a pinch of salt.

 

[Seizen]

Of the six types BMB has taken the time to sort out and place as the types which take normal damage or resist Stealth Rock, U-turn and Pursuit, there are three that spring to mind to be most useful as a primary type: Electric, Water and Poison.

Though, of the three, for a Utility Counter, I'd take Electric - while not resisting a good deal of the types and having EQ weakness, it's not hard to take away that weakness with Levitate or if need be, Electrolevitate, though the latter is a bit pointless as it will most likely be dead from EQ on all but the highest speed varients. Plus, as an attacking type, it has a number of good STAB moves available to it, and hits 11 of the 17 types for normal damage, 2 for Super Effective and 3 for 1/2 the normal damage. Though it does suffer somewhat from a single type being immune to it. Still, this would allow CAP 10 good type coverage, especially if partnered with another type.

EDIT: Excuse for poll-jumping, but I feel that Electric/ Poison w/ Levitate maybe something to look into? It offers seven resistances, with one 4x weakness which is solved by Levitate, and one 2x weakness which isn't much of an attacking type. All in all, with the right stats it would be able to switch into a lot of common types.

 

[ShravanP]

[COLOR=black]Ghost/Dark (NONE) – Resists Poison, Normal, [COLOR="Red"]Dark (doesn't resist)[/COLOR], [COLOR="SeaGreen"][B]Fighting[/B][/COLOR][/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=black]Normal (Fighting) – Resists[COLOR="SeaGreen"][B] Ghost[/B][/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electric (Ground) – Resists Electric, Flying, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Normal/Ghost (Dark) – Resists Normal, Fighting, Ghost, Bug, Poison[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Water/Ground (Grass) – Resists Fire, Electric, Poison, Rock, Steel [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Water/Dragon (Dragon) – Resists Fire, Water, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Poison/Dark (Ground) – Resists Grass, Poison, Psychic, Ghost, Dark[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Psychic/Dark (Bug) – Resists Psychic[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Bug/Steel (Fire) – Resists Normal, Grass, Ice, Poison, Psychic, Bug, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, Steel[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=black]Dark (Bug, Fighting) – Resists Psychic, Ghost, Dark[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Dragon (Dragon, Ice) – Resists Fire, Water, Electric, Grass[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Fighting (Flying, Psychic) – Resists Bug, Rock, Dark[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Ghost (Dark, Ghost) – Resists Bug, Poison, Normal, Fighting[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Poison (Ground, Psychic) – Resists Bug, Poison, Grass, Fighting[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Water (Electric, Grass) – Resists Fire, Water, Ice, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Normal/Electric (Ground, Fighting) – Resists Electric, Flying, Steel, [COLOR="SeaGreen"][B]Ghost[/B][/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Normal/Poison (Ground, Psychic) – Resists Bug, Poison, Grass, Ghost[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Normal/Psychic (Dark, Bug) – Resists Psychic, Ghost[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Normal/Dark (Bug, Fighting) – Resists Psychic, Ghost, Dark[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Fire/Ground (Water, Ground) – Resists Fire, Electric, Poison, Bug, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Water/Electric (Grass, Ground) – Resists Fire, Water, Ice, Flying, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Water/Flying (Electric, Rock) – Resists Fire, Water, Fighting, Ground[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electric/Fighting (Ground, Psychic) – Resists Electric, Bug, Rock, Dark, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electric/Poison (Ground, Psychic) – Resists Electric, Grass, Fighting, Poison, Flying, Bug, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electric/Flying (Ice, Rock) – Resists Grass, Fighting, Ground, Flying, Bug, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electric/Bug (Fire, Rock) – Resists Electric, Grass, Fighting, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Grass/Steel (Fire, Fighting) – Resists Normal, Water, Grass, Electric, Poison, Psychic, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Fighting/Psychic (Flying, Ghost) – Resists Rock, Fighting[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Fighting/Dark (Fighting, Flying) – Resists Psychic, Rock, Ghost, Dark[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Poison/Steel (Fire, Ground) – Resists Normal, Grass, Ice, Poison, Flying, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Ground/Flying (Water, Ice) – Resists Electric, Fighting, Poison, Ground, Bug[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Ground/Dragon (Ice, Dragon) – Resists Fire, Electric, Poison, Rock[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Psychic/Ghost (Dark, Ghost) – Resists Normal, Fighting, Poison, Psychic[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Psychic/Steel (Ground, Fire) – Resists Normal, Grass, Ice, Poison, Flying, Psychic, Rock, Dragon, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Ghost/Steel (Ground, Fire) – Resists Normal, Grass, Ice, Fighting, Poison, Flying, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Dragon, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Dragon/Steel (Ground, Fighting) – Resists Normal, Water, Electric, Grass, Poison, Flying, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dark, Steel[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Steel/Flying (Fire, Electric) – Resists Normal, Grass, Poison, Ground, Flying, Psychic, Bug, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, Steel[/COLOR]

Few corrections, but overall, great info!

 

[Drybones]

For a primary typing, I think it would be best to select something that could have its weaknesses and resists/immunities modified through an ability. A good example of this is Bronzong's steel typing, which is further modulated through its abilities. Choose levitate, and you wall pokemon A but are weak to the moves of pokemon B. Choose heatproof, and the situation is reversed.

EDIT: To be clear, I think a type with many resists and many or common weaknesses would be a good idea. Otherwise how is it going to beat one threat and get beaten by many others?


All that being said I keep going back to standard DD LO mence as a pokemon that would be tricky to counter in a way specified by the concept. I'm having a hard time thinking what kind of typing could be set up to counter him specificly and also thereby losing to the other majority of the metagame. Tricky concept indeed.

ANOTHER EDIT:

My other post was mysteriously deleted, which is fun. I assume it was because this one existed as well so I edited this one not to include a bold vote. Didn't think it mattered how many times we posted here OR how many words we decided to bold.