CAP 27 Prevo - Part 1 - Typing Discussion

[Quanyails]

As decided in this poll, Astrolotl will have 1 pre-evolution. Since Astrolotl has gone live on Pokemon Showdown!, we're waiting for the Isle of Armor DLC to release, and we're waiting for the CAP metagame to resettle, let's get the pre-evolution done in the meantime!

CAP 27 for reference:

• CAP 27 so far
• CAP 27 on Pokemon Showdown (WIP)

What do you think Astrolotl's pre-evolution should have as a typing? Fire/Dragon, Astrolotl's typing, will be on the slate from the beginning. Other options will be slated depending the ensuing discussion.

This discussion will be open for 48 hours!

 

[MrDollSteak]

I think that based on our move pool Fire / Dragon is the only typing option that makes sense.

Unlike in Gen 7 LU movepools are really consistent in Gen 8 and there aren't prevo only moves anymore as far as I'm aware. With this in mind, if we want to change the typing, it would probably have to be mono-Fire and we may need to tweak Astrolotls final level up movepool to reorder things to keep the flavour consistent, which is a precedent I'm unsure about.

 

[Dogfish44]

I always start prevos from the Movepool, which sort of defines the rest of the process for me - from a movepool you have your pre-evolutions constraints on so many things. Indeed, the key area is the Level Up movepool.

The movepool has a notable change in Level Up Pattern, which is indicative of a very standard Level Up Evolution. As MrDollSteak has pointed out, we can't change Astrolotl's movepool (however much I will complain about it). As such, our Level Up movepool will by precedent almost certainly look something like this (not including levels at this jucture);

Hide

Knock Off
Pound
Tail Whip
Ember
Dragon Breath
Encore
Flame Wheel
Charm
Dragon Tail
Cosmic Power
Heal Bell
Fire Lash
Wish
Dragon Pulse
Healing Wish
Dragon Rush
Flare Blitz

Potentially the last couple of moves can be trimmed off? Either way, moves like Dragon Tail, Dragon Pulse, and Dragon Rush (As of Gen 8 these are almost entirely exclusive to Dragon Types when talking about Level Up movepools, and this is strictly exclusive for Dragon Rush now that Dunsparce has been snapped) to me sort of locks in a Dragon-typing, whilst... a whole bunch of moves there... basically lock in the Fire- typing.

I think it's chronically boring, but from the precedents inherent to a movepool that is styled - roughly! - after that of a standard Level Up evolution I can do nothing but back Fire/Dragon, and I will push back against anything else.

 

[Bughouse]

Aside from the movepool stuff, Dragon types rarely change typing during evolution, anyway.
Probably the only relevant precedent for gaining a Dragon type is Dragalge, since Kingdra is a trade evolution and Alolan Egg is a stone evolution and a regional forme.

But then getting back to movepool, we can look at how the SM movepools for Skrelp and Dragalge relate (since they're not in SS), Skrelp was not learning any dragon type attacks until the pretty innocuous Dragon Pulse at level 49, and Dragalge only even has that at 53 + Dragon Tail at 59.

Astrolotl has substantially more dragon flavor flowing throughout, even at early levels. It makes sense to be Dragon.

As for fire, having any fire type attacks in level up at all is quite rare for a non-fire type. Ember for example is only in level up for non-fires for the Salamence line and Castform. It's basically the signature fire type move, being learned by virtually all fires at a low level. Flame Wheel is only even learned by one line at all by any method that's not Fire, Rattata's. (Also Galarian Darmanitan, but that is fire-adjacent due to its original form and the zen mode dual-typing).

I'm not saying don't hold a poll lol, but I don't see how any other option aside from maintaining Fire/Dragon makes sense.

 

[Zetalz]

I'm largely in agreement with everyone else, Fire/Dragon is the way to go for this. I personally am not a fan of removing types from prevos just for the sake of 'differentiating' it from the evolution, or worse changing one of the types into something else not hardly relatable to the CAP, (I know somebody is going to suggest Fairy is for this thing just because). Sticking to the typing may be "boring" to some but we're not trying to (or shouldn't be trying to) make a cool radical prevo that's wholly unique from it's evolution here, least in my opinion.

 

[Hematite]

Personally, I would much rather have Fire/Dragon anyway, but I think it's worth noting that there is an alternative interpretation of Astrolotl's movepool. We can definitely circumvent the apparent obligation to be Fire/Dragon - it really is just a matter of whether people really want to do that.
Starting in Sword and Shield, when a pre-evolved Pokémon learns a move that its evolution doesn't, the evolved form still retains the move - it's just moved to level 1.
As far as I know, these replaced moves are indistinguishable from Heart Scale moves (look for yourself with Growlithe and Arcanine!) - which means we can use Magic Coat and Baton Pass to replace any two moves of our choosing in the level-up pool for the pre-evolution.

Based on existing examples, we have two options:

- replace two moves, with Magic Coat first and Baton Pass second​

- replace one move with Baton Pass only​

Since we also have the option to trim the end of the movepool, we can end up with something totally Dragon-free that abides by Generation VIII movepool norms:

- Dragon Rush and Flare Blitz can be removed from the end.​

- A late Dragon Pulse is apparently fine, but that and Healing Wish can also optionally be removed.​

- We otherwise only have two Dragon-type moves, which is the number we're allowed to replace.​

By cutting out all four of our Dragon moves, we are left with a more-or-less-plausible movepool for a pure Fire-type.
(I think losing Fire would be far harder to justify, personally - I don't know if movepool conventions would even allow us to replace Ember, for example. We also have no more than one damaging level-up move of any other type, so I don't think we could justify any alternative secondary type.)
In any case, I definitely prefer Fire/Dragon myself for many of the reasons that have already been stated, but I think it's important to establish the options we have in case other people don't agree.

That aside:

Aside from the movepool stuff, Dragon types rarely change typing during evolution, anyway.
Probably the only relevant precedent for gaining a Dragon type is Dragalge, since Kingdra is a trade evolution and Alolan Egg is a stone evolution and a regional forme.

Swablu, Trapinch and Poipole also exist. Honestly, I think Dragon is on the higher end of types when it comes to being added on evolution!

 

[uckuup]

Aside from the movepool stuff, Dragon types rarely change typing during evolution, anyway.
Probably the only relevant precedent for gaining a Dragon type is Dragalge, since Kingdra is a trade evolution and Alolan Egg is a stone evolution and a regional forme.

I have to disagree with the idea that trade/stone evolutions and regional forms "don't count" as changing type from evolution. For me, this actually re-inforces the fact that Dragon types often change typing during evolution, exactly because that is how it so often is used. Like Hematite also points out, there are several more lines that do this, and if you also think about mega evolutions then that's three more. Yes, there are types that do this way more than Dragon, like with Flying, but I think a Pokémon gaining the Dragon typing feels just as natural as gaining the Flying typing. In my opinion, although I don't think Astrolotl's design necessarily dictates it being a Dragon type, the typing definetely fits! But I can see the possibility of a mono-Fire pre-evolution first growing these Dragon-like traits over an evolution and still feel like a natural evolution.
Personally for me, it's not a preference over Fire/Dragon, but I think there should be room for the mono Fire option.

 

[Quanyails]

The consensus is clear that Fire/Dragon is the preferred typing for this Pokemon, even among people who have suggested alternate typings. We won't need to run a poll here!