CAP 33 - Part 3 - Primary Ability Discussion

[quziel]

CAP 33 So Far

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Please pay very close attention to kenn's posts during this thread and remain on topic. DO NOT begin by posting massive lists of abilities!

Some general rules for this discussion:

• Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
• Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Fully Banned Abilities group

Arena Trap
As One
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Beads Of Ruin
Beast Boost *
Chilling Neigh
Commander
Dark Aura
Dauntless Shield
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Dragon's Maw
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Grim Neigh
Gulp Missile
Hadron Engine
Hunger Switch
Ice Face
Illusion
Imposter
Intrepid Sword
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Orichalcum Pulse
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
Protosynthesis *
Quark Drive *
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Sword Of Ruin
Tablets Of Ruin
Teravolt
Transistor
Turboblaze
Unseen Fist
Vessel Of Ruin
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode
Zero To Hero

* These abilities will only be unbanned on a concept which is based around this ability - Such as an Ultra Beast or Paradox Pokemon

Soft Banned Abilities group

These abilities are banned by default and should not be discussed barring exceptional cases. If you believe one of these abilities should be considered, you can make a post trying to explain why an exception is warranted in this specific case and if both the TL and Ability Leader agree, it will be allowed. If the TLT disagrees with the unbanning proposal, they should be considered fully banned and should not be further discussed.

Bulletproof
Color Change*
Defeatist
Dry Skin
Earth Eater
Flash Fire
Fur Coat
Good As Gold
Gorilla Tactics
Huge Power
Ice Scales
Libero*
Levitate
Lightning Rod
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Magnet Pull
Mimicry*
Motor Drive
Parental Bond
Protean*
Pure Power
Purifying Salt
Regenerator
Sap Sipper
Slow Start
Stall
Storm Drain
Truant
Volt Absorb
Water Absorb
Water Bubble
Well Baked Body
Wind Rider

*These abilities can only be considered for an unban if the Ability stage is done before typing.

Secondary Ability ban group

Comatose
Drizzle
Drought
Electric Surge
Fluffy
Grassy Surge
Innards Out
Misty Surge
Prankster
Psychic Surge
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost
Stamina
Steam Engine
Supreme Overlord
Toxic Debris
Triage

Flavor ability only ban group

Ball Fetch
Battery
Costar
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power Spot
Power of Alchemy
Propeller Tail
Receiver
Run Away
Stalwart
Symbiosis
Telepathy

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Primary Ability banlist

Fully Banned Abilities group + Soft Banned Abilities group + flavor ability-only group

Secondary Ability banlist

Fully Banned Abilities group + Soft Banned Abilities group + secondary ability group + flavor ability-only group

Flavor Ability banlist

Primary ability group + secondary ability group

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I'll now hand this over to kenn to make the first post in the thread. Please have a good discussion.

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Ability banlist PRC threads:

• US/UM: http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7391668
• SW/SH: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3659245/
• S/V: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3715273/

 

[kenn]

Hey everyone! Now that it has been decided CAP 33 is going to be a Water/Fairy type, it is time to see what abilities would fit the best! With our role clearly defined by the concept itself of being a very fast immovable object, it is my job to help further accentuate the idea of being able to utilize our Speed to wall the opposition.

But before we get to suggesting specific abilities, I think there is some information we need to determine and go over to really narrow down the options we wanna look at so without further ado, I have some questions for you!

1. How does an ability complement the idea of being a "fast wall"? Should we take advantage of our Speed or should we focus more on our defenses? I think that we really wanna hone in on the idea of making the concept shine so seeing what abilities can benefit from 33 being fast and/or bulky will allow us to do just that. If we do think that being faster is worth more than being bulky, that can be answered hopefully with this question.

2. Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing? Taking a defensive approach to a process is new as most CAPs are built with some offensive nature inherently built into the concept or by nature of going through the process. Deciding which approach we wanna take defensively can help fine tune what we want CAP 33 to accomplish while fulfilling the concept.

3. Should any defensively potent abilities with offensive potential baked into them, such as Water Bubble or Magic Guard, be discouraged? Yes? No? Why? I think there is discussion to be warranted when it comes to "goodstuff" abilities and whether or not they are worth exploring for CAP 33 to be a fast wall but at the same time they would more than likely take a big chunk of the power budget which may not be ideal so early on in the process.

I am gonna give 48-72 hours on this particular set of questions or until the discussion has died down! Do NOT suggest actual abilities quite yet!

 

[Brown4Sides]

Short but sweet answers here.

1. How does an ability complement the idea of being a "fast wall"? Should we take advantage of our Speed or should we focus more on our defenses? I think that we really wanna hone in on the idea of making the concept shine so seeing what abilities can benefit from 33 being fast and/or bulky will allow us to do just that. If we do think that being faster is worth more than being bulky, that can be answered hopefully with this question.

I would lean a little more toward focusing on our defensive profile. We are a wall after all, so this is only natural. I think that focusing on our Speed is also fine as long as we do it in a way that doesn't risk making us offensive.

2. Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing? Taking a defensive approach to a process is new as most CAPs are built with some offensive nature inherently built into the concept or by nature of going through the process. Deciding which approach we wanna take defensively can help fine tune what we want CAP 33 to accomplish while fulfilling the concept.

I would prefer general purpose abilities rather than immunity or resist abilities. With a wall, it's always easy to just slap on immunity/resist abilities, but Water/Fairy I think is good enough to not need them. Idk, immunity/resists this time around would be something we would do just because we can when we could be doing other things with our ability.

3. Should any defensively potent abilities with offensive potential baked into them, such as Water Bubble or Magic Guard, be discouraged? Yes? No? Why? I think there is discussion to be warranted when it comes to "goodstuff" abilities and whether or not they are worth exploring for CAP 33 to be a fast wall but at the same time they would more than likely take a big chunk of the power budget which may not be ideal so early on in the process.

It's probably best to not give it anything that might imply offensive potential. With our high speed stat, CAP 33 will be looking for any opportunity it can to try to be offensive. We shouldn't let it. Because a high speed stat plus any kind of offensive ability may mean this mon tries to run offensive sets, even if our attacking stats are low. Just look at what a decent Speed stat, poor attacking stats and an ability with both offensive and defensive prowess did to Krilowatt.

 

[Fenghuang]

I'm going to make a longer post in a bit, but I first wanted to compare some low strength abilities. Most of these won't be directly helping our "fast wall" idea nor will they be particularly impactful, but I think choosing a reliable low power ability can give us a lot more freedom in the later stages to choose more powerful options.

The first is pastel veil/immunity. This is much less true in this gen than it was in the past, but one of the best ways to break a wall is to toxic it. Immunity to Toxic is a nice helpful low power ability that doesn't constrain us in the future.

The second is natural cure. It doesn't prevent toxic, but it means that volatile status doesn't stick. A slightly stronger version of natural cure is comatose, which prevents status to begin with.

A third very niche ability that would probably not affect our build much at all is water compaction. A free +2 defense on a resisted water switch in is a fun tech, and yet also rare enough that it doesn't need to cut into our bulk very much at all.

Lastly, pressure is appreciated by a lot of bulky mons. Eternatus in SSUbers appreciated the confluence of fast bulk and pressure to make it harder for bulky offense to crack. The nerf to recovery moves might affect the calculus here.

 

[mark6870]

How does an ability complement the idea of being a "fast wall"? Should we take advantage of our Speed or should we focus more on our defenses?

For the ability, I believe focusing more on defensive potential would be more productive. Reason being, there aren't many abilities that directly affect our speed other than the broken Speed Boost, counterintuitive Weak Armor, and the crappy Tangled Feet. We would be getting more mileage out of our ability slot just by using a utility or defensive oriented ability.

Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing?

abilities that simply add resistances or immunities are the most straightforward way of making this wall do the switching in thing better. While not against them, I am in favor of general purpose abilities because they could add more depth to CAP33's gameplay than just widening the list of switchin opportunities. For example, there are abilities such as Mold Breaker that let us exert pressure with status or hazards onto more Pokemon, or Unaware allowing us to switch in and threaten out fast boosted threats with status or STAB.

Should any defensively potent abilities with offensive potential baked into them, such as Water Bubble or Magic Guard, be discouraged? Yes? No? Why?

While I dont think any of us will be giving CAP33 those abilities, I am not against abilities with offensive potential. Walls should be able to wall things obviously, but once they get onto the field we want them to do something so they aren't a passive momentum sink. Whether these abilities exert traditional offensive pressure or pressure through utility, hazards, status, etc., I believe it is not a groundbreaking take to say CAP33 should be a do-nothing mon.

 

[zxgzxg]

Any ability that directly boosts bulk should probably not be allowed. This would cause CAP 33 to lean too defensively and invest in more bulk than speed. The ability of choice should encourage going first and the use of utility rather than taking hits.

Mod edit: Removed specific ability suggestions

 

[Zetalz]

1. How does an ability complement the idea of being a "fast wall"? Should we take advantage of our Speed or should we focus more on our defenses?

This is an interesting question. When it comes to evaluating abilities that would suit our purposes it's very easy to distinguish options that directly affect our defensive profile (any damage reducing/resist/immunity abils), but when look to options that seek to primarily interact with our Speed things get more nebulous. Given how powerful our defensive profile already is by nature of our Water/Fairy typing, abilities that further enhance it are not that appealing to me. I'm more inclined to explore abilities whose application is of direct benefit to, or for, our Speed tier.

2. Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing?

Similar to Q1 I think angling for abilities with less direct defensive synergy is more interesting. There's nothing inherently wrong with exploring resist/immunity options, but it feels quite tacky for this process given that we have such a strong defensive typing already. I'd prefer to look through the lens of abilities that can contribute to creating a good wall mon without directly affecting defensive profile, or that benefit greatly from our Speed.

3. Should any defensively potent abilities with offensive potential baked into them, such as Water Bubble or Magic Guard, be discouraged? Yes? No? Why?

The key thing to consider with abilities such as these is how much restriction they place on future stages of the project. While yes something like MG is a monumentally powerful and defining ability choice, it also places great limitations on the freedom stats and moves can have. This tricky balancing act is not really worth it imo, I believe any offensive potential 33 will have should be defined by those stages, not reigned in by them.

 

[boomp]

2. Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing?

I think immunity/resist abilites is just an easy way out on the whole process because who wouldnt want to counter its weaknesses. i believe general purpose abilities allows us to explore what we really can do with a fast wall and can make an meh ability to something more useful which can allow more flexibility with the stats spread.

3. Should any defensively potent abilities with offensive potential baked into them, such as Water Bubble or Magic Guard, be discouraged? Yes? No? Why?

I think is should be discouraged due to the fact people will try to make this wall more of an offensive threat which just beats the whole purpose of a fast wall. If anything it wouldnt even need no offensive potential due to it being a Water/Fairy mon.

 

[Samirsin]

1. How does an ability complement the idea of being a "fast wall"? Should we take advantage of our Speed or should we focus more on our defenses?
The ability can either accentuate its Speed, making it more agile in countering threats, or bolster its defenses, fortifying its resilience. An ability that capitalizes on its Speed could allow it to outpace key threats and maintain better control over the battle. On the other hand, an ability that enhances its defenses might enable it to withstand more hits, solidifying its role as a sturdy wall. Personally, I don't think Speed is the way to go with the ability. Going down that path limits the amount of choices we could have.

2. Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing?
Immunity or resist-giving abilities could be particularly valuable, allowing CAP 33 to excel in countering specific types of threats and providing strong resistances. General-purpose abilities might offer versatility but could dilute its defensive identity. Therefore, a deliberate focus on abilities that enhances its capacity to withstand attacks, disrupt opponents, or protect the team should align more effectively with the concept.

3. Should any defensively potent abilities with offensive potential baked into them, such as Water Bubble or Magic Guard, be discouraged? Yes? No? Why?
The inclusion of abilities like Water Bubble or Magic Guard, which offer both defensive potency and offensive potential, warrants careful consideration. While such abilities can add versatility to CAP 33's toolkit, they also consume a significant portion of the power budget. Consequently, the decision to include them should be weighed against the potential risks of overcomplicating the concept and potentially detracting from the core identity of a "fast wall." After all, the best offense is good defense.

 

[Amamama]

1. How does an ability complement the idea of being a "fast wall"? Should we take advantage of our Speed or should we focus more on our defenses?

I think creating an interaction between our speed and ability would be cool and I think that this would be more unique for a defensive Pokémon than finding interactions between abilities and bulk, though I also believer there are a few abilities that can do both. In general id like to focus more on the speed first approach.

Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing?

I don’t think we’d need to look to other CAPs to make good decisions here.
Overall my stance is, that this typing already has basically everything it wants defensively and that immunities would be a complete waste of ability slot and resist abilities should only be considered to solidify a matchup that already is in our favor but becomes shaky due to coverage.
Instead I’d like to look into abilities that can give additional utility focused on speed interactions and playing the long game.

Should any defensively potent abilities with offensive potential baked into them, such as Water Bubble or Magic Guard, be discouraged? Yes? No? Why?

I don’t think they need to immediately be discouraged but I’d need really great reasoning to even think about an ability with multiple effects like the two mentioned, just bc our typing already does a lot and could get away with less power in ability leaving maybe more room for stats.

 

[sneakyjeans]

1. How does an ability complement the idea of being a "fast wall"? Should we take advantage of our Speed or should we focus more on our defenses?

The benefit of our Speed should be that we have more control over how we choose to wall the opponent, whether that's healing, a detrimental support option, status, boosting our defenses, etc. Our ability should lean into the benefits of that control, and focus more on providing us ways to be a better defensive presence. I think the best options will continue to provide CAP 33 with additional flexibility as a wall.

2. Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing?

Plenty of walls do just fine without immunity/resist abilities, Toxapex, Amoonguss, and Dondozo all come to mind. While something like Levitate is always a good option (unless you're Fan Rotom), I think we should lean towards general purpose abilities or something with a more unique interaction. Our speed is already a differentiating factor from the other walls I mentioned though, so I don't necessarily think we need to look at really potent abilities to start.

3. Should any defensively potent abilities with offensive potential baked into them, such as Water Bubble or Magic Guard, be discouraged? Yes? No? Why?

We already picked a pretty offensive typing, Water/Fairy has some very strong coverage into a lot of top threats like Dragapult, Great Tusk and Walking Wake. I think we should be very cautious in suggesting offensive abilities, however some of the examples that can swing either way I believe could be justified.

 

[mark6870]

Any ability that directly boosts bulk (Fluffy, Multiscale) should probably not be allowed. This would cause CAP 33 to lean too defensively and invest in more bulk than speed. The ability of choice should encourage going first and the use of utility rather than taking hits.

Speed is such an important stat that no matter what if we have a solid speed tier (which is guaranteed because thats our concept) we'd be investing in speed.

Mod Edit: Removed specific ability suggestion.

 

[Wulfanator]

Mod Post

The section leader has not opened discussion about specific abilities. All users are expected to read every Opening Post and every post by the Section Leader. Failure to follow the rules will result in moderation.

 

[viol and bass]

How does an ability complement the idea of being a "fast wall"? Should we take advantage of our Speed or should we focus more on our defenses?

We're in a really strong position out of the gate in terms of both typing and sort of implied stats that I don't think we're reliant on our ability to shore up our defenses. I think abilities that interact with speed, provide utility, or increase the pressure we exert when we're on the field are cool for that reason.

Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing?

I don't think immunity/resist abilities are required or even necessarily desirable here. Our defensive profile is already exemplary. A more interesting approach is, as I said above, using our ability for utility, or to make us less passive when we're on the field.

Should any defensively potent abilities with offensive potential baked into them, such as Water Bubble or Magic Guard, be discouraged? Yes? No? Why?

I think the given examples are much too strong for where we're at in the project, and either would risk turning us into an offensive behemoth. I don't think offensive abilities are inherently harmful here though, and could in fact be interesting. We've seen pokemon that function as walls with offensive abilities before– think SpDef Dragalge, Scizor, or Sylveon. These pokemon's abilities allow them to be less passive, exert pressure, and generally just accomplish something when they're on the field. So I think offensive abilities might be worthy of consideration here.

 

[psykokitty]

1. How does an ability complement the idea of being a "fast wall"? Should we take advantage of our Speed or should we focus more on our defenses?

I think we should be taking advantage of the Speed, as that is what will set CAP33 apart from other walls. Someone else earlier stated that this allows us to be choosy about how we wall the opponent, and I think something that protects the speed stat would be very important. I have a couple ideas in mind but will wait until specific abilities are allowed before bringing them up.

2. Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing?

Personally, I like general purpose abilities more. I've long felt that immunity/resist abilities are sometimes used to work around rather than with the typing that was chosen, so my reasoning for this is process-oriented rather than competitive.

3. Should any defensively potent abilities with offensive potential baked into them, such as Water Bubble or Magic Guard, be discouraged? Yes? No? Why?

I do feel like they should be discouraged. Otherwise we run into a 'mon that is fast, bulky, and offensive rather than adhering to the 'pick 2' philosophy that CAP has used in the past to make sure we didn't end up making something horribly broken.

 

[Explosion Badger]

1. How does an ability complement the idea of being a "fast wall"? Should we take advantage of our Speed or should we focus more on our defenses? I think that we really wanna hone in on the idea of making the concept shine so seeing what abilities can benefit from 33 being fast and/or bulky will allow us to do just that. If we do think that being faster is worth more than being bulky, that can be answered hopefully with this question.

As others have said before me, the main advantage to 33's high speed is the ability to choose how we want to wall our opponent. Along with this, 33's speed also allows us to do more inbetween the times when we need to heal 33, as higher speed makes it harder for opponents to force us to heal, either by allowing us to cripple them before they could potentially finish 33 off, heal before they can finish 33 off, or KO them before they can finish 33 off. Therefore, in my opinion the best abilities for a "fast wall" are going to be abilities that either allow us to Lengthen the amount of time between when we need to heal even further, or help add to the pokemons utility in a way that lets us threaten our opponents and make our high speed stat all the more threatening.

Between these two choices, I think the more defensive choice of extended longevity is the more consistently reliable choice. Keep in mind though, even with more defensive abilities in mind, the ability should still be interacting with our Speed in a interesting way, which I feel not all defensive abilities do, such as...

2. Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing?

Truthfully, I feel that immunity abilities are somewhat uninteresting when it comes to this concept. Sure, they do extend the Pokémons longevity by making it take no damage from certain moves, but they also...just do that. Simply adding immunities doesn't add interesting ideas to how this Pokémon manages its HP, only making it so less Pokémon can whittle that HP down. Not only does it lack interesting applications to our Pokémon, it also is liable to make this mon frustrating to deal with, considering its already stellar defensive typing. Overall, an ability that reduces damage, rather than immunizing it, offers a far more interesting path as a whole to me.

 

[Dunfan]

If I may, Water/Fairy is a great defensive typing that allows n°33 to switch on a variety of moves and then outspeed the opponent right afterwards. But if it simply beats the opponent, it's no longer an immovable object. Same if it pivots out, it's no longer an immovable object either... and additionally it becomes a pivot rather than a wall.
So, and hoping this leads to a great result, our goal would be to utilize our faster turns in order to bolster ourselves into achieving "immovable" survivability through that turn where we have the momentum. This could include setup, but also status, and even field effects - as long as the end result is that we're not moving...
... And we must find an ability that helps achieve this end.
If I understand correctly.

So let's get onto our 3 questions:
____________________________________________________________________________________________

1. How does an ability complement the idea of being a "fast wall"? Should we take advantage of our Speed or should we focus more on our defenses?​

Why not both? We want a satisfying product, so of course we want both to achieve our desired immovability while taking advantage of our speed.
If we're going to use our speed advantage to create a favorable matchup before the opponent can act, perhaps an ability that gives us momentum, like damage mitigation or something that forces the opponent to switch out, would be most welcomed.
Alternatively, if we're going to use our speed advantage to heal ourselves back when returning on the field after being damaged earlier, perhaps we want those turns to be significant and contribute to our victory. For example by ensuring we can healing ourselves back to full, or by getting an advantage as through chipping away the opponent's health, their PP, gaining a beneficial field effect, or just stealing back the momentum.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

2. Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing?​

To examplify being defensive and being an immovable object, a single immunity won't save you. There are 18 types, you will not be "immovable" by only defending yourself against one of them. And even if there were only two weaknesses left after patching one, we still want to ensure that super effective coverage will not undo our object's immovability.
Nonetheless, you will be vulnerable to chip damage. I suppose "successfully" staying immovable on-field by repeatedly bashing the opponent with Body Press is out of question (?!) for a true wall. Thus we want staying power through passiveness. We want our passiveness to be flawless, like good ol' Haze Pex or Heal Bell Blissey.
Notably, though, neither are susceptible to Toxic, unlike our Water/Fairy here. Of course, this might be fixed with moves. But if as we want an ability that fills an important role to n°33's survivability, I believe something against poison or status could be an opportunity.
I would also mention that, as it is weak to Salt Cure's chip effect, it is likely that n°33 will be holding a Covert Cloak at all times - thus an ability that either supports well an occupied item slot, or outright replaces the Covert Cloak altogether, would be sweet.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

3. Should any defensively potent abilities with offensive potential baked into them, such as Water Bubble or Magic Guard, be discouraged? Yes? No? Why?​

As our goal is a very fast immovable object, I believe being we should picture it as some sort of Pyukumuku on roller skates.
We may give it an ability with offensive potential, but that doesn't mean it will be making use of said potential.
It can change, but for now my stance is that every Pokémon has its idiosyncrasies and often the design will just "flow" so that the ability makes sense, whether or not it has offensive potential is fundamentally irrelevant as long as the stats and movepool ensure that the final product really is a very fast immovable object.

 

[ShaunShen]

1. How does an ability complement the idea of being a "fast wall"? Should we take advantage of our Speed or should we focus more on our defenses? I think that we really wanna hone in on the idea of making the concept shine so seeing what abilities can benefit from 33 being fast and/or bulky will allow us to do just that. If we do think that being faster is worth more than being bulky, that can be answered hopefully with this question.

I think that since we are a wall, we should have more of a defensive ability. Not only are defensive abilities are better on wall Pokémon (Poison Heal or Purifying Salt), but also it allows for more creativity somewhat. There are more defensive abilities than speed abilities in the game. Yes, we have abilities that increase our speed, but certain conditions must be met (Rain Weather for Swift Swim or being hit by a Fire or Water move for Steam Engine) or the abilities would be wayyy too busted on it, like Speed Boost. Comparatively, abilities like Insomnia or Unaware are always active, Insomnia preventing sleep and Unaware blocking opposing Pokémon's stat boosts.

2. Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing?

I think that we don't need to do immunity/resist giving abilities as the main ability, it would be better to have a solid set of abilities available for this Pokémon. For this example, I'm gonna use three different abilities that could be on this Pokémon, since we don't need to limit the ability number to 3. This is not me suggesting anything! I am just giving examples! Let's say our fast wall has the abilities Dazzling, Misty Surge, & Pressure. Those three abilities are defensive in nature, but only one grants an immunity, Dazzling. Dazzling blocks all priority moves from being used by the foe, thus giving an immunity to Extreme Speed or Aqua Jet. Misty Surge, while it doesn't give any power boost to STAB Fairy Moves, does grant an immunity to status effects to all grounded Pokémon as well as a reduction to Dragon Type moves. Pressure makes moves use 2 PP rather than 1, which can be detrimental for moves that have low PP, like Extreme Speed or Leaf Storm. They all can benefit the wall immensely, and as such they all can be good abilities to run on this CAP Pokémon.

3. Should any defensively potent abilities with offensive potential baked into them, such as Water Bubble or Magic Guard, be discouraged? Yes? No? Why?

I personally think that it is fine, so long as specific parts of the Pokémon's stats are thought of while adding these offensive abilities. If this wall has 85 SpAtk and Water Bubble, that's not a wall anymore, that's an offensive threat, which destroys the idea of what we are going for, that being a Fast Wall. Comparatively, Magic Guard blocks all indirect damage, which can be defensively suffocating depending on the stats. Having a stat line of something like 85/85/120 defensive stats could be very scary, since that defensive stat line can make it so that it could live hits with little to no margin of error. I'm gonna post a quick calculation to prove my point

252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD CAP 33: 246-290 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So in my opinion, if we choose to use more defensively potent abilities with offensive potential built in, we then have to calculate factor in the stat line to ensure that it does not suffocate the metagame

 

[Fenghuang]

something I've been thinking about wrt questions 1 and 3. There are, as I see it, basically three types of abilities:

1) abilities which provide some sort of niche interactions, while mostly keeping our power level low and not railroading us too much.
2) abilities which provide a strong amount of generalized bulk or power which need to be built around to ensure we keep our power level in check but do not provide a strong direction in any particular direction
3) abilities which would greatly determine and interact with our stats and movepool and to a large degree railroad the role and actions our mon will take

I think that none of these are necessarily preferable to any of the others, and indeed I think that there are good abilities in all three categories. But its worth thinking about, moving forward, what it is we're voting for when we vote for abilities. I personally have a preference for abilities with lie in 1 or 2, I like abilities which interact with our role while not overly sidetracking our process. So for example:

Should any defensively potent abilities with offensive potential baked into them, such as Water Bubble or Magic Guard, be discouraged? Yes? No? Why?

These two abilities imo fall into categories 2 and 3 respectively. Water Bubble would require careful planning to not turn this guy into an offensive powerhouse or- if we want it to be a powerhouse- to keep its power in check. Magic Guard on the other hand gives us immunity to a wide range of damage sources and life orb sauce.

 

[Palosaks]

1. How does an ability complement the idea of being a "fast wall"? Should we take advantage of our Speed or should we focus more on our defenses?

I believe both routes here have merit, focusing on defense lets us solidify our role as a wall and bolster our defenses while focusing on making use of our speed could lead to more interesting routes centered around how this cap's ability and speed interact. Personally I would prefer to take advantage of our speed.

2. Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing?

Immunity abilities and resist abilities feel unnecessary as our type is already great defensively. Additionally as mentioned before there are walls that can get by just fine without such abilities so general purpose abilities should work fine if not better as this cap could get additional utility from them that it otherwise wouldn't have if we opt for an immunity.

3. Should any defensively potent abilities with offensive potential baked into them, such as Water Bubble or Magic Guard, be discouraged? Yes? No? Why?

Any ability with offensive potential forces us to be carful in future stages as to not make this cap too strong and honestly, I don't think it's worth the risk. There are plenty of abilities we could explore that don't have the same stipulations an offensive ability would, providing us with more freedom during later stages.

 

[Sawyer.]

An important consideration is that CAP33 will still have plenty of utility at low HP, unlike a traditional slow wall. In my opinion, we should seek to emphasize this point of difference by avoiding abilities that are designed to keep a Pokemon healthy and instead choosing an ability that enhances CAP33's supportive or disruptive capabilites.

 

[Etharia]

An important consideration is that CAP33 will still have plenty of utility at low HP, unlike a traditional slow wall. In my opinion, we should seek to emphasize this point of difference by avoiding abilities that are designed to keep a Pokemon healthy and instead choosing an ability that enhances CAP33's supportive or disruptive capabilites.

Agreed. An ability that can prevent taunt, for example, or that provides some sort of additional benefit to its status moves would allow it to better take advantage of the free turns it can get compared to other walls.

 

[Darek]

We are in a unique position compared to previous CAP processes where we don't really need a strong ability to accomplish our concept. Water/Fairy is already an exceptional typing with unique boons over other bulky Waters, and with sufficient stats and movepool it will very likely be an effective wall. Thus I find it far from necessary to focus on abilities that purely bolster CAP33's defensive capabilities such as immunity abilities; rather, our ability should highlight the distinct features of a fast wall, pushing CAP33 from "a wall that is fast" to "a pokemon that uses its Speed to wall." As such I find that utilizing Speed takes precedence over improving defense or avoiding offense. Any ability that enables CAP33 to use its speed effectively should be considered even if the ability is more offensive-leaning in nature.

 

[HallowedHarlequin]

1. How does an ability complement the idea of being a "fast wall"? Should we take advantage of our Speed or should we focus more on our defenses?
While I think we should take advantage of our Speed, most abilities that directly deal with speed boosting/going first seem somewhat ill-suited to helping a wall. Generally, they either give massive boosts conditionally, or bypass Speed entirely through priority. Walls need consistency, so requiring a field effect or a few extra turns to execute a gameplan seems much more risky, and priority abilities would disincentivize speed investment/negate the usefulness of speed altogether, which seems anti concept. If the ability focuses on speed, I think abilities that prevent loss of a naturally high speed will be preferable over speed boosting.

2. Since most CAPs are built to be offensive, how do we want our ability to exemplify being defensive? Are immunity/resist giving abilities more important or do general purpose abilities sound more appealing?
I agree with Darek that 'using speed to wall' is a much more interesting route for this project, and so I think the best abilities will be those that can:
- Enhance the effect of utility when that utility occurs before the opponent's move,
- Be used in conjunction with moves to prevent things that typically cripple walls, or
- prevent the opponent from gaining a speed advantage.
Regarding immunities, I don't think blanket type immunities accomplish any of this. I do want to highlight, however, the possibility of immunity to or mitigation of paralysis, and possibly toxic. Paralysis is the most crippling status for fast Pokemon; toxic is the most crippling status for walls. We mean to be both, with a unique emphasis on speed, so an ability that eases the fear of the yellow demon gives 33 much more security in fulfilling its role.

 

[Amamama]

I want to say here that we should move away from the idea that „ability that makes the most of our speed“ = „ability that directly interacts with our speed stat“.
As an example Multiscale is an ability, that in conjunction with recovery becomes much more effective if outspeeding an opponent, as it allows you to heal back to full, giving you the protection of Multiscale BEFORE the opponent strikes, which is especially valuable on turns after you switch in.

Contact abilities for example are improved by going before the opponent in conjunction with recovery as they effectively compress damage/status with recovery. (You switch in and (possibly) cripple the opponent->you outspeed threatening not only damage through attacking but also damage or status just by being hit again, which gives you the opportunity to even force out Pokémon that can hit you for more than 50% damage. (Say you switch in on a Mon that hits you for 55%. Even if your forced to recover you still can force damage or status on a Mon using contact moves, smth that wouldn’t have been possible if you weren’t faster.))

Immunity (abilities) can have a bigger impact on faster mons. Imagine Equilibra vs Krilowatt.
Both Pressure each other with STABs. Still, if Equi manages to come in on an Electric move, it might need to switch out again or trade for heavy damage as it is slower and really threatened by Krils Surf, but if it was faster than kril the interaction might now change in favor of Equi.

There are probably a lot of examples where a combination of ability, speed and moves is stronger the higher the speed is.

Other abilities don’t really interact with speed.
Magic Bounce for example will always activate with the same effect and Power regardless of speed, especially since it’s most effective on switch in or even as a threat on the bench.

Funnily I think Speed boosting abilities actually are less interactive with the highest unboosted speed tiers, bc at a certain point there isn’t much value in being even faster.
While 85 is a great speed tier for a speed booster ability as a +1/+2 lets you just outspeed stuff you couldn’t before, anything that edges on the highest speed tier will basically mean you get LESS value from your ability the closer you get to the fastest mons.

In conclusion this means, that arguing for or against „abilities that focus on speed“ based on Speed Boost or Rattled as examples is a flawed argument and I’d hope that instead we can agree on speed interactive abilities being abilities like Multiscale, Serene Grace or Rough Skin.