Metagross, Infernape, Mixed Intimidate Salamence and Conkeldurr (potentially Lucario) are all exceptionally low on usage whereas Terrakion and Keldeo are the premier fighting pokemon used on teams these days. Many of the pokemon you listed, also have flaws (for example Croak needs rain, a few of them are SR weak, or don't really give any sun team trouble etc etc). Terrakion and Keldeo might not have been the best counters to CAP 5, but they are the best commonly seen offensive checks in the game, they can be chucked onto pretty much any team (Keldeo stays away from sun but works on sand, rain and no weather b4 you nitpick it) and generally do pretty darn well just many other good pokemon. People WANT to use high usage mons that double at offensively checking mons, noone wants to just use an Infernape to check CAP 5 when its pretty shitty pokemon outside of this when you have the option if using Terrakion which is just so much better and fits on anything. No-one is denying that CAP 5 still has counters, thats pretty obvious, what people are frustrated about is having to resort to uncommon options to deal with it, when a Terrakion would work just fine.
OMG, Ginga, you're a genius! You just completely nailed how fast speed actually
fulfils the concept! Wooo, awesome. Because you just mentioned how CAP5 basically makes two popular fighting types become less popular in a metagame with CAP5, meaning their second typings of Water (freaking common) and Rock, will be replaced by mons who also have the shared Fighting type, but a much less common second type in either Fire or Poison.
But what is this? You're actually telling me you don't want to make a stat spread that fulfils the concept? You want to use common and popular mons to beat CAP5 because that's what you prefer and are used to? Hmmm. You know what, let's give it a stat spread of 50/50/50/50/50/50, just to make sure CAP5 makes no impact on the metagame at all, because that hinders your ability to play with the common mons. The same mons whose
usage were freaking aiming at trying to reduce as per the concept!
Allright, I'll man up. Ginga, you're post was just the last post that got me angry so you got the bigger part of my sarcastic reply. But there is no way that I'm removing these first two paragraphs. Why? Because it's about the first time in this entire thread so far that the word
USAGE has been used.
And when the discussion falls into a shit storm, and Ginga writes down an alinea like he did about not wanting to use less common mons to check CAP5, which goes fully and completely against the concept, we need to stop for a second and rethink what we are doing. CAP in general, has always had an issue around this stage and the movepool stage of losing focus on what the concept wants us to do, and goes more and more into just completing/finishing a proper and solid good OU mon.
And it makes sense. We've done our concept discussion. We came up with a few sub-directives. Some niches that we want CAP5 to have. Then we proceeded with typings. Ability. We start pushing CAP5 more and more into a direction and we start envisioning CAP5 for ourselves. Threats discussion. (A big one in our train of thoughts about how CAP5 will shape up to be in the metagame). Stat limits. And here we are. Most of the stat submitters will have entered this stage with a set mind on how they envision CAP, and I have no doubt most of these mindsets on how CAP5 should be in stats have been formed mostly in the last few stages, like Ability and threats discussion.
Ability aside, we've concluded on some threats to CAP5 and some mons that CAP5 needs to threaten. We did that to give some focus to us in later stages to help us fulfil the concept. But as with every discussion stage, these are just tools to help us fulfil the concept. Setting threats are the means to an end. In the end, we want CAP5 to nail down the concept itself, the main description line, to a T. The only way of actually doing that is to always not only use the tools given to use in earlier stages, it's to always think about the Concept itself too. And how the things we're trying to do works for the concept.
Now, we can argue all we want that we decided to aid Sun teams, and by proxy we'll probably fulfil the concept. But honestly, if in my job, I'd always only focus on the little details and would get further and further into those, somewhere along the line, I'd derail the entire project if I wouldn't look back regularly into the basic set of requirements my client gave me. I've seen many projects derail in IT, just because of this way of working. It affects everyone. Even high level government project with so-called professionals screw up major stuff by over focusing on minor details regularly. I guess it's in our nature.
And yes Ginga, when I look at the list of mons that Alexwolf lists, a fair share of them have at least one typing that is definitely not in the top of common typings. Water/Fighting? RIIIIIGHT up there.
So this is where I think focusing on the main goals of our concept gets priority over just adhering to the threats list. And honestly, I even said this same damn thing in the stat limits thread. Keldeo and Terrakion were not even mentioned in the final post as decided upon threats. What was mentioned was:
Some fighting types, like Infernape or Toxicroak are threats to CAP5.
Anyway, I know it's much easier for everyone just to explain how your stat spread works well on sun teams and against common sun enemies. But if your submission has an additional paragraph about how it relates to fulfilling the concept, drawing out lesser used typings as counters and how it goes about helping to fulfil the three sub-directives, you're much more likely to get my vote. These sub-directives that Doug wrote and just about everyone agreed on: Beat common typings through boosting Sun - Get the 3 main counters for sun out of the way; Toad/Lati@s - Open up teamspots by letting CAP5 also take on the niche of Spinning.
(Yes EspyOwner, read sub-directive 3. Alexwolf was actually arguing perfectly well in favor of the concept when the mentioned how higher speed works well in favor of enabling Rapid Spin.)
Also, I have no idea if our simulators work the way that Ignus is saying. Probably needs some investigating, because it has huge implications for our stat spreads. EDIT: Why was his post removed?! If it's complete bullocks, just make a reply as a moderator why his post is bullocks and be done with it. But if his version of how Harvest operates is true to the cartridge, then why the hell aren't we taking it serious? Sitrus Berry activating twice in one turn is a HUGE thing after all..