CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 14a - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[Plus]

hehehehe...

Name: Stop the Secondary
Description: A Pokémon that through means of ability, moves, and typing, can stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin.

Justification: While the immediate threat of damaging moves is large and present, the affect of moves such as status, Trick, Leech Seed, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes have arguably had a greater affect to the metagame than anything has ever had, something that this would greatly look in to.

Questions to be Answered:
~ How easily would a Pokémon with such large of a niche be able to fit into a competitive team?
~ How large of an impact would the reducation of non damaging affects and moves have on the metagame?

- What, if any, would happen to the types of teams being used?
- How would this affect the usage of these types of moves?​

~ How much of an affect does typing have on the ability for ANY Pokémon to perform this duty?

Typing: Dark/Ground
Ability: Auto-Magic Coat
Ability: Guts
Stat Spread: 133/122/72/71/72/95
Allowed Attacking Moves:
Drill Peck, Aqua Tail, Zen Headbutt, Ice Fang, Fire Blast, Thunder Fang, U-turn, Ice Shard, Crunch, Megahorn, Seed Bomb, Earthquake, Pursuit, Fire Fang, Selfdestruct, Stone Edge, Focus Punch, Sucker Punch, Superpower

It's movepool time. Before we rush into making movepools, we're going into Non-Attacking Moves Discussion. To those of you new to CAP, simply suggest and discuss moves WHOSE MAIN GOAL IS NOT FOR OFFENSE for this CAP. An attacking move is classified as a move that does primary damage as its main effect, which does not mean Rapid Spin, Knock off etc.

Moves suggested will be put into the following categories. Allowed means that the moves suggested will be allowed for the movepool. Pending is simply a group for moves that have not been discussed that can sway into either group. Disallowed is for moves that are broken or detract from the CAP. Controversial is for moves that might or might not be broken. Moves in this group will be in a poll in which we decide what moves are allowed, and what moves are not.

The moves:

Allowed

Taunt
Torment
Rest
Sleep Talk
Rapid Spin
Block
Knock Off
Toxic
Substitute

Pending

Controversial

Moonlight/Morning Sun
Heal Bell
Fake Out
Reflect
Light Screen
Rock Polish
Roar
Encore


Disallowed

Swords Dance
Bulk Up
Howl/Meditate
Baton Pass
Dragon Dance
Will o Wisp
Yawn
Thunder Wave (and any other forms of paralysis)
Curse
Spore (and any other sleep inducing move)
Trick
Entry Hazards (SR, Spikes, TS)
Recovery moves (excluding aqua ring, ingrain and rest, perhaps wish and moonlight too)

For more reference, a quick list of RESPONSES (NOT COUNTERS PEOPLE) that CAP 9 probably has atm
Hippowdon, Swampert, Suicune, Gyarados, Tangrowth, Skarmory, Gliscor, Salamence, Scizor

The Rules

• The list of moves in this post will serve as the single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.

• Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the Pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.

• Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.

• The Topic Leader will update the list continuously throughout the discussion, using recent posts to determine changes to the move list. Moves may have a fluctuating status as the community debates for or against the move in response to changes in the OP.

• Posts should be based on the current state of the list in the OP. It is the responsibility of each member to check the OP before making any post in the thread. Posts that demonstrate lack of familiarity with the current OP will be deleted.

• The Topic Leader is the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". The TL may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as Controversial.

• All moves that are considered Competitive for this Pokemon are included in the list in the OP. Non-Competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered Competitive (see next rule).

• If you disagree with the TL's categorization of a move as Competitive or Non-Competitive, you can post arguments in this thread, but reasoning must be supplied.

Keep it reasonable, don't fucking threadhog, don't fucking whine/throw insane amounts of theorymon at me (mines surpasses yours!), etc.

Please only post moves you think are controversial.

 

[Azule]

It should get rapid spin, imo. Being able to scare Skarmory away and spin away the spikes it set up is a perfect way of stopping that form of secondary. I could see it being able to use Block, to an extent.

 

[Objection]

Here are some damage calcs for Howl. Because I don't know what CAP9's highest possible attack stat is, the following calcs assume 372 attack, which is a little less than maximum, with a boost from Howl and a boost from Guts.

Hippowdon takes 58.57% - 68.81% from Earthquake. I am not going to bother with Suicune or Swampert because they'll take even more damage from Earthquake. All are clean 2HKOs.

Skarmory takes 56.29% - 66.47% from Fire Fang - a clean 2HKO. Tangrowth takes 50.50% - 59.90% from the same move so has about 18% chance of avoiding a 2HKO if he runs lefties.

For good measure, here are the calcs of Ice Fang and Thunder Fang vs Gyarados and Salamence - here, Howl and Intimidate cancel each other out:

Gyarados takes 94.42% - 111.68% from Thunder Fang. Salamence takes 93.40% - 110.66% from Ice Fang.

OK, so after +1 and Guts, CAP9 can 2HKO every single one of its "responses" (all I needed to do was prove it could 2HKO the bulkier ones without a 4x weakness). The fact that most of these responses are outsped by CAP9 means Howl will push this thing over the edge. Howl should be disallowed as well as any other move that could increase CAP9's attack stat (including Acupressure).

 

[Arb]

Trick has possibilty to be useful, it can disable a secondary move user and stop trickers by just forcing there choice item back on them :P

 

[dorkknight23]

Of the listed controversial moves. Two stand out that should be allowed:
Rapid Spin is absolutely a must to knock out entry hazards like Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and also for Leech Seed.
Roar could also be a useful para-hazing move.

And rest should be removed from the list of disallowed recovery moves (since its allowed, after all.)

 

[Raikaria]

I'm thinking Roar should be allowed. It allows CAP9 to counter something that it currently cannot, Fast Stat-up users. Taunt won't work except on the switch. However, should... say... Garchomp (Assuming Non-Uber), comes in, who's rather safe, looking for Swords Dance, Roar it. A more probable example would be Latias (Clam Mind), or Salamance. (Without Stone Edge)

Roar would neither be broken, or useless.

Trick dosen't seem to fit the concept. How does it stop the secondary, anymore than it does already? It can't switch in, then trick, Auto Magic Coat sees to that. Ironic, as well, if CAP9 gets a move that it was given a specific type to stop. (Dark)

I am against any and all stat-up moves. Iron Defence would be plain broken, turning CAP9 into a new form of sweeper. Flame Orb + GUTS + +2 Defence? Howl would be bordering on broken as well, considering, combined with GUTS, it's like Swords Dance on normal pokemon. Rock Polish + Guts = No, just no.

I oppose Block. Kinda redundant, when Persuit works fine, and you'll only trap a counter.

 

[Plus]

I scimmed the rules so im pretty sure i wont be getting in trouble :D

Rapid Spin is pretty obvious a choice, and i can see CAP9 using it to (spinning its entire body like a drill kinda thing)

Im not sure what you mean by only post moves that are controversial, do you mean only moves you listed under controversial?

if thats the case then just tell me and ill delete this

Trick has possibilty to be useful, it can disable a secondary move user and stop trickers by just forcing there choice item back on them :P

Well first off I'd just like to remind you to cut any flavor arguments/discussions regarding this shit. It tends to detract from the overall discussion. Edit out the rapid spin flavor stuff.

When the rules said post only moves you think are controversial, I meant post only moves you think are controversial, which is essentially the point of this thread. Do you agree with that list? Should there be another move listed in controversial that I may have overlooked?

 

[iKitsune]

Sorry i dont have much reasoning for my choice but I really like the idea of Slack Off. I think it would be really interesting to run a 3 attacks slack off with LO this works even better as this thing learns no boost moves.

What do you guys think?

 

[Objection]

Sorry i dont have much reasoning for my choice but I really like the idea of Slack Off. I think it would be really interesting to run a 3 attacks slack off with LO this works even better as this thing learns no boost moves.

What do you guys think?

Disallowed

Recovery moves (excluding aqua ring, ingrain and rest)

It being really interesting to run a set of EQ/Crunch/Elematal Fang/Slack Off is not a valid reason for allowing it.

 

[Masamune]

I'd allow Rapid Spin and Roar. Rapid Spin wouldn't be too broken, and removing secondary effects is kinda what this CAP is designed to do. Roar works in a similar way, but prevents said secondaries from being set up in the first place.

 

[scampy]

I'd like to suggest another move to add to the controversial list, Heal Bell.

CAP9's goal is to stop the secondary, but there will always be cases where it's unable to switch in safely (Vaporeon's Toxic, Breloom's Spore) and reflect/absorb status thrown at your team. This being the case, Heal Bell allows CAP9 to rid a team of status later on in the match, and gives it the option to continue fulfilling its purpose.

For the Controversial attacks currently listed in the OP,

Rapid Spin is pretty much a given. Removing entry hazards is vital if CAP9 is going to stop the secondary. CAP9's Dark typing is enough to deter any Ghost types from switching in, so there's little doubt that it'll be able to use the move effectively.

Torment is fine, too. It's not going to be able to make CAP9 too powerful nor will draw away any emphasis on its ability to stop the secondary. With 5 weaknesses and not a great deal of resistances, Torment isn't going to turn CAP9 into a bastard like, say, Heatran.

Iron Defense isn't going to be too good on CAP9, so I guess I support it being allowed. Many of its weaknesses (Ice, Water, Grass) mainly come from special attacks. CAP9 also does not have a form of recovery outside of Rest, meaning it's not going to be tanking hits for too long before it's taken down.

EDIT: In response to Ritsi_Time,

Isn't this what Auto-Magic Coat is for?

Auto-Magic Coat is an ability that requires CAP9 to be switching in on the status directly. Some status users (such as Vaporeon and Breloom like I mentioned) are capable of severely hurting CAP9 should it mispredict and switch in on a STAB super effective attack. Heal Bell allows CAP9 to remove the status later on in the match (and does not require risky play), which is why I think it's a pretty important support move to have for a Pokemon designed to stop secondary effects.

 

[petrie911]

Well, just because it's disallowed now doesn't mean it has to be. I could see Slack Off at least being controversial. Moonlight might be a decent idea, as it isn't as reliable, but it also encourages Sandstorm, which we're trying to stop.

Rock Polish should be disallowed. A spread of Adamant 252atk/148spd/108def reaches 526 speed and 565 attack after Rock Polish+Guts activation. That outspeeds Timid Scarf Latias while having more attack than a Naive DDmence after one DD, with 407/202/175 defenses, which lets it take priority decently well (CB Scizor--55% max, CB Mamo--74% max, LO Ape--58% max, SpecsLuke--78% max).

Amnesia should be added to the list with Iron Defense. Cosmic Power and Stockpile should also be considered if we're considering Amnesia/Iron Defense.

 

[zarator]

I think that Curse should join the Unallowed group. The speed drop isn't enough to make up for the excessive boost IMO.

I also fail to see why Trick should be allowed. We made this thing to lower the viability of Trick users (above other things). And then? We give it Trick? This seem quite absurd to me. And to people who advocate it as a measure against secondary users, Pursuit is more than enough (especially if we give to this thing Rapid Spin).

I'd like, however, to bring defense lowering moves like Tickle and Screech up for debate. They have great sinergy with Pursuit, and at the same time do not make a sweeper out of CAP9.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Support:

Safeguard.
Let's consider a situation where CAP9 with AMC (we really should get around to naming that ability) switches in on a Rotom-A and reflects the burn back. Now, we have a mindgame. If we Taunt while it flees, we probably just wasted a turn. If we Pursuit while it WoWs again, then it just crippled our CAP.
Using Safeguard, on the other hand, prevents status for the entire team, and even if our opponent switches in something our CAP can't really handle, at least we didn't waste a turn; our team is protected against status for a little while longer.

Rapid Spin
Rapid Spin would be invaluable on this Pokemon. It has all the necessary tools to 100% beat the most popular spin blocker in Standard. A simple set of Crunch/Earthquake/Rapid Spin/Taunt completely destroys all variations of Rotom-a except offensive Rotom-C, who in turn loses very badly to a Pursuit Scizor. This in turn makes spin blocking MUCH more difficult, and in turn makes entry hazards less appealing. As entry hazards are a form of Secondary, I believe this fits perfectly with our concept.

Psycho Shift.
This move, on the other hand, is more suited towards our Guts variant. The ability to cause a Toxic status or a Burn 100% of the time is very useful, especially since more than a few of our CAP's stated counters hate both. It can also allow offensive variants to turn several 3hkos into 2hkos (through canceling leftovers/adding more residual damage). A moveset of Crunch/Earthquake/Psycho Shift/U-turn, for instance, would allow CAP9 to hit its usual counters with a status on the switch and U-turn out to something else. This essentially guarantees that unless this counter happens to be called Skarmory, it cannot switch in to CAP9 again, as absolutely every single counter mentioned (except, again, Skarmory) is 2hko'd with leftovers cancellation and residual damage. The disadvantages, however, would include Moveslot syndrome (total lack of coverage and recovery), uselessness against Natural Cure pokemon, and possibly encountering another Guts Pokemon. I'm not sure if this would be broken or not, although I'm leaning towards "Not Broken" at the moment. I just wanted to throw out this relatively obscure but cool/useful option, and see if the discussion sways me more towards one direction.

Trick
Our CAP9 currently has no protection against one of the most common secondary moves. Giving it Trick would prevent support variations from being crippled, and it would allow offensive variants to directly harm the Trickster without losing the versatility that makes it dangerous by keeping a choice item.

I don't Oppose any of the moves mentioned so far, and I can't think of anything that would overtly break CAP9 besides ones that are already Disallowed, so I'll save that part of my post for later.

 

[Ritsi_Time]

I'd like to suggest another move to add to the controversial list, Heal Bell.

CAP9's goal is to stop the secondary, but there will always be cases where it's unable to switch in safely (Vaporeon's Toxic, Breloom's Spore) and reflect/absorb status thrown at your team. This being the case, Heal Bell allows CAP9 to rid a team of status later on in the match, and gives it the option to continue fulfilling its purpose.

Isn't this what Auto-Magic Coat is for?

 

[tennisace]

So I'm just wondering what the standard moveset will be. I was thinking something like: Crunch/Earthquake/Stone Edge/Fire Fang/Aqua Tail/Sucker Punch/Taunt/Encore/Heal Bell/Rapid Spin/Trick/Toxic/Rest/Sleep Talk with both AMC and Guts.

I know I'm exaggerating a lot but when you're shooting down moves you should take into consideration the extremely limited space involved.

 

[wickdaggler]

Allowed

Taunt
Toxic
Rest
Sleep Talk
Rapid Spin
Knock Off
Substitute

Disallowed

Recovery moves (excluding aqua ring, ingrain and rest)

lolwut?

Anyway, I don't support any moves that bost stats, due to the fact that this pokemon is not a sweeper by design. One would think that a pokemon designed on stopping secondary attacks would work more as a wall? Anyway, the ability to take down counters is boosted by moves like howl. (see Objections' post) and I think we want to avoid that. However I agree with zarator's opinions in his previous post. Especially with tickle and Screech.

 

[Kachalski]

I'm asuming Rain Dance and Sunny Day will be auto-matically on the list?

Also, why are we auto-banning Stealth Rock? As far as I know, every Ground Type from Uber-NFE can use it (I haven't actually checked) so why not this one?

 

[zarator]

Also, why are we auto-banning Stealth Rock? As far as I know, every Ground Type from Uber-NFE can use it (I haven't actually checked) so why not this one?

Have you ever heard about the mighty Gastrodon?

 

[Kachalski]

Have you ever heard about the mighty Gastrodon?

Like I said, I was just playing off memory.

 

[Apocalypse B-C]

Throwing in Confuse Ray, Gravity, and Power Trick.

Confuse Ray may have the ability to force switches; at the very least a pokemon doesn't want to only have a 50% chance of pulling off its attack....

Gravity is particularly for countering Fliers and Levitators - most of all Skarmory, who would be taking super-effective damage from EQ....

Power Trick could let CAP9 go pseudo-defensive and run a stall set of sorts....

Eh, just random ideas....

EDIT: from the controversial list....

Support Torment, Fake Out, and Roar, Against Block and Iron Defense.

 

[Naxte]

Also, why are we auto-banning Stealth Rock? As far as I know, every Ground Type from Uber-NFE can use it (I haven't actually checked) so why not this one?

Yeah, pretty much. Most Ground-types get SR, so without a good reason, it should be allowed, IMO. And since we apparently don't mind Skarmory and Hippowdon working as potential checks for CAP9, and thus using it as Spike/Stealth Rock bait, I don't see why we shouldn't in turn allow CAP9 to set up Stealth Rock--we've established through its checks that entry hazards aren't much of an issue, and thus CAP9 should be able to get Stealth Rock as, at least from what I can think of, there are no other (at least ones not based on flavor-reasoning) problems with CAP9 getting Stealth Rock (it being broken, etc).

 

[Kachalski]

Yeah, pretty much. Most Ground-types get SR, so without a good reason, it should be allowed. And since we apparently don't mind Skarmory and Hippowdon working as potential checks for CAP9, and thus using it as Spike/Stealth Rock bait, I don't see why we shouldn't in turn allow CAP9 to set up Stealth Rock--we've established through its checks that entry hazards aren't much of an issue, and thus CAP9 should be able to get Stealth Rock as, at least from what I can think of, there are no other problems with CAP9 getting Stealth Rock (it being broken, etc).

The only reason I can think is SR + Stone Edge = Gyarados coming down as a potential counter. The again, hundreds of other Pokemon set up Stealth Rock, it's not like, as you say, we are breaking CAP9 here.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

lolwut?

I think you misread "exluding".

Anyway, I think that this CAP is getting a *bit* too much on it's movepool. I think Heal Bell is just going overboard. It would want to absorb status most of the time (either with it's AMC or with Guts), and besides, I have a feeling that it won't have too much room for Heall Bell even if it will make the CAP, as it has things that are just more viable. I think a moveset like Earthquake/Pursuit/Taunt/Sucker Punch will be used the most, or something like that. This CAP will have to act quickly, not burn turns healing its team. There are other Pokemon for that.

 

[Plus]

Flygon does not get stealth rock.

Anyways, the reason I disallowed stealth rock is because it is ironic that a pokemon designed to stop the secondary actually uses one of the most common forms of it. Overall I really don't find it necessary to give it stealth rock other than the fact that most (not all) ground types get it. The last thing I would want with this CAP is a bunch of SR CAPs running around. I don't give a shit that it beats x pokemon with y move after stealth rock, its the fact that the secondary is being promoted with the CAP that irks me.

Allowed

Taunt
Toxic
Rest
Sleep Talk
Rapid Spin
Knock Off
Substitute

Disallowed

Recovery moves (excluding aqua ring, ingrain and rest)

lolwut?

Exclude:
1 a : to prevent or restrict the entrance of

Because you are preventing or restricting the entrance of rest, ingrain and aqua ring to the category disallowed, I think you've made a mistake there :|