CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 4 - Style Bias Discussion

[Plus]

Discuss the style bias/build bias for CAP 9 here. Remember that our current pokemon is:

Name: Stop the Secondary
Description: A Pokémon that through means of ability, moves, and typing, can stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin.

Justification: While the immediate threat of damaging moves is large and present, the affect of moves such as status, Trick, Leech Seed, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes have arguably had a greater affect to the metagame than anything has ever had, something that this would greatly look in to.

Questions to be Answered:
~ How easily would a Pokémon with such large of a niche be able to fit into a competitive team?
~ How large of an impact would the reducation of non damaging affects and moves have on the metagame?

- What, if any, would happen to the types of teams being used?
- How would this affect the usage of these types of moves?​

~ How much of an affect does typing have on the ability for ANY Pokémon to perform this duty?

Typing: Dark/Ground

For those of you who are wondering what Style/Build bias is, look here for some information. Basically, this discussion thread is here to discuss whether this pokemon should be Offensively oriented or Defensively. Just a heads up, however. I am going to decide the Style/Build bias here. Here are some examples:

• Offensive: 20 to Infinity (Infernape, Azelf, Salamence)
• Somewhat Offensive: 0 to 20 (Machamp, Heracross, Gyarados)
• Somewhat Defensive: -20 to 0 (Tentacruel, Spiritomb, Suicune)
• Defensive: -20 to -Infinity (Skarmory, Hippowdon, Blissey)

Here is a BSR calculator.
Here is the information on the formula.

The Rules:

• This is not poll jump paradise. Do not suggest stat spreads in this poll, simply discuss the possibilities. Discussion is strictly Style Bias.

• Remember the difference from Style Bias and Build Bias. Guys, this is strictly Offensive/Defensive talk. There shouldn't be much talk about Physical/Special bias until later in the project.

• Threadhogging -- don't do it. What I said in the Secondary Typing Poll applies here even more. Get your point across, defend it, and move on. I shouldn't see the same people posting the same shit over and over again.

• Keep the convo fresh. Don't discuss the same thing over and over again. If you have something new to post, post it. If not, think a little bit harder on your post, and make sure you are not threadhogging.

This thread will probably end around October 6, 8:00 EST.

REMINDER: I am choosing the Style Bias, as well as the Build Bias when the time comes.

 

[Fuzznip]

For me, I suggest this Pokemon should be looking at a Somewhat Offensive style build. There are a two reasons why I think it should look like this:

1) With CAP9's typing being Dark/Ground, it's pretty great offensive typing. I mean, Dark hits whatever Ground fails to hit and vice versa, not to mention that both of these types are seen to have powerful offensive STAB attacks (Earthquake, Crunch).

2) The reason I selected Somewhat Offensive is because I see this CAP being relatively defensive as well. Even though it packs several common weaknesses (which is why I ignored the defensive builds), it can still be used as a decent tank.

So yeah, this should be more biased to the offensive style.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I want to remind everyone that we have changed the process for setting the various stat bias ranges. See past Policy Review threads for reasons behind the change. The Topic Leader will set the Style Bias range (one of the four options in the OP) at the conclusion of this thread. The same will be done for Build Bias, and BSR in later threads. So don't be surprised when we DON'T have a bias poll after this discussion. There WILL BE stat spread submissions and polls like always, which is ultimately what sets the stats for the pokemon.

 

[Poke25]

I agree that CAP9 should be somewhat Offensive, the typing works well for that, and after stopping the secondary effects of an opponents move, Cap 9 probably want to promptly defeat the Pokémon, preventing its secondary effect moves from harming the rest of your team.

 

[zorbees]

I've been experimenting with some spreads and I find that most of my spreads fit about in the area between -6 and 6. I pretty much put any spread that I think may work and it just happens to be in that middle area.

The reason I feel this holds is because this Pokemon needs the bulk to survive attacks from secondary users, yet the attack power to defeat them. (trying not to polljump) A big reason why Dark was chosen seemed to be the fact that it gets a powerful STAB Pursuit to punish secondary users. It needs the attack to do enough damage with Pursuit, but the bulk to have them not just stay in and attack it.

So yeah, I wouldn't mind Somewhat Offensive or Somewhat Defensive.

I may go more in-depth later...

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I will also voice support for Somewhat Offensive. Although I was not among them, nearly all Ground supporters offered the second high-quality STAB as a major point in favor of the type. Since we have it, we may as well play to that strength.

I also think that Somewhat Offensive supports the concept. Stall teams rely on secondary effects a lot, so if we really are going to "stop the secondary" rather than "gain an advantage in using the secondary," it means that CAP9 will not be geared toward a heavy stall style of play. Also, if it is going to seriously disrupt stall teams' ability to abuse their effects, it will need to place at least some pressure on them. This favors some offense.

It should not, however, be Offensive. Glass cannon stats will prevent it from switching in multiple times as nearly everyone seems to agree it will need to do. Also, powerhouse sweeping stats will create tension with moves like Rapid Spin, etc., which it uses to do its job. It needs somewhat balanced stats and movepool.

For all of these reasons, Somewhat Offensive is the clear choice.

 

[familyguyman]

I would like a Moderate Offensive build.

EDIT: Oops, that was from the info page, Somewhat Offensive is from the ones Plus wrote.

As stated, Dark/Ground is very strong offensively but not so much defensively. Therefore, CAP9 should be keeping up the pressure constantly but still be able to take neutral hits and not be forced out constantly.

Basically, we've decided to go offensive in the typing, going anything but very offensive in the style will be counter intuitive and lead to mediocrity IMO.

 

[Ordinando]

I've been experimenting with some spreads and I find that most of my spreads fit about in the area between -6 and 6. I pretty much put any spread that I think may work and it just happens to be in that middle area.

The reason I feel this holds is because this Pokemon needs the bulk to survive attacks from secondary users, yet the attack power to defeat them. (trying not to polljump) A big reason why Dark was chosen seemed to be the fact that it gets a powerful STAB Pursuit to punish secondary users. It needs the attack to do enough damage with Pursuit, but the bulk to have them not just stay in and attack it.

So yeah, I wouldn't mind Somewhat Offensive or Somewhat Defensive.

I may go more in-depth later...

I'm going to agree with this, and add that many current pokemon that are used to "stop the secondary" (taunt users, rapid spinners, etc) have these builds and they perform well. (Taunt gyarados, guts machamp, rapid spinning hitmontop)

 

[Deck Knight]

Somewhat Offensive:

I've been tinkering around quite a bit and have tried to build around a Somewhat Offensive Base. It is possible to make 3 probably viable spreads, however:

Offensive does not possess the defenses necessary to provide adequate pressure while maintaining the support set necessary to stop the secondary.

Somewhat Defensive reduces potential options for surprise sets based upon receiving say, tricked Choice Specs. I have a baseline speed that I refuse to lower and so offense has to suffer for it. It makes it difficult to reach the attack score I want, but it won't be impotent.

Thus I have concluded Somewhat Offensive is the way to go. Yeah I know "CAP is too much Bulky Offense yarrrrrrghonaut." But Bulky Offense works for this type pairing, and Somewhat Offensive facilitates this.

 

[billymills]

What's with this shitty moderation. Take to the offense. We have two extremely useful stabs, being decently offensive won't scare off anything. The WORST thing we can do, is give this decent offensive stats and an extremely varied movepool, GHOSTEEL anyone?

I'd advocate restrictions on the typings of the moves it is given, but it must absolutely stay OFFENSIVE.

I have no idea why this should be tankish at all. Tanks do not stop secondary effects, they promote them.

 

[mudkip72]

To be something that removes secondary effects from the game, it obviously can't rely on them itself. Thats why I think this CAP should be Somewhat Offensive.

As said before, the typing is kinda bad defensively and was picked for offensive purposes. And Of coarse we can't have a glass canon to be our secondary stopper.

A pokemon that with no bias could also work though since these pokemon can actually still use some direct damage moves effectively, and the poke could survive a good portion of a match to stop secondaries.

 

[Class]

Agree with Fuzznip 100%. Somewhat Offensive. It doesn't have the typing to be defensive and needs to be some sort of a threat and can do that with with it's good STABs. Too powerful would be overkill though.

 

[Cybeny]

I'm also going to support Somewhat Offensive.

The typing makes it hard for CAP9 to go defensive, however it does need some bulk in order to survive longer than a couple of turns to constantly "Stop the Secondary"

 

[Lord Jesseus]

Support seems to be in favour of somewhat offensive, and I can only agree. It needs to be a ble to threaten secondary users but without becoming an offensive powerhouse in its own right. Plus som decent defense is needed for all teh switching in it will inevitebly be doing.

 

[Chomz]

I would go for Somewhat Defensive. Dark/Ground is an excellent offensive typing with many super effective hits, so its dual STABs don't need much stat backing to hit plenty of Pokemon in the metagame for considerable damage. On the other hand, it'll need a fair amount of bulk to switch in repeatedly and stay in battle long enough to make an impact, and probably to take a few super-effective hits considering its fairly dreadful defense capabilities.

 

[KnightoftheWind]

Somewhat Offensive
Very simple. Dark and Ground are nice offensive types so some offense will hurt the secondaries quite nicely. However, it needs some defense too, to consistantly switch in.

 

[Raj]

Somewhat Offensive
I kind of want to steer away from what we usually do and create a Pokemon that lies on each extreme. By all the posts before this one, pretty much all reasoning has been gathered already.

 

[zorbees]

Hmmm, with this Pokemon switching in often against many secondary users, such as Blissey, Celebi, Rotom-A, Latias, Metagross, Jirachi, Swampert, etc, I feel as if it will need better defenses than something like Machamp or Gyarados offers to sustain repeated hits from these Pokemon, especially the more offensive ones like Metagross and Latias, and the ones that hit it super effectively like Swampert and Celebi. This makes me lean a bit more towards Somewhat Defensive. A lot of this hinges on my belief that this Pokemon will want to switch in often to stop secondary moves, so if someone can make me believe this is false, my stance may change.

 

[Apocalypse B-C]

Somewhat Offensive

I'd put it at the very top of this range - almost all-offensive, but not entirely. As said previously, I see CAP9 as being able to punish secondary users, which would warrant strong offensive power, coupled with its highly useful offensive typing, would make this very effective as a punisher - don't want it to have STAB Pursuit but be unable to put any power behind it, a la Umbreon. So it needs to be at least somewhat offensively trended....

 

[MetalGearSamus]

Somewhat Offensive, but more towards the defensive, for all the reason stated above.
It just fits the typing imo.

 

[Coronis]

Somewhat Offensive

I believe that in order to stop the secondary, which is the concept of course, CAP 9 needs to be able to hit fairly strongly, as most users of secondary moves are defensive, and need to be hit hard, to prevent them from using them. How could we stop a tricker without it having offense. Would you like a defensive pokemon with a Choice Band/Specs/Scarf? I am however against it being really offensive. Even with the right moves and such, would Azelf be able to stop the secondary? Being that frail? I seriously doubt that and it's not what I want for this CAP.

 

[Pink]

Somewhat Defensive

In my opinion, we are not going to learn much about stopping the secondary through offensive measures. If anything, we are going to make a sweeper that can take status and hope to punish the user of said status effects. However, I don't see how this will teach us anything we don't know. The best way to stop a team that abuses Secondary Effects is to make sure they don't get set up; to punish the users of the Secondary Effect. This is already known. We do it all the time. Pursuit T-tat does this already. However, what we have little knowledge is how to do it defensively. We can have an aromatherapist, or use Rapid Spin to get away entry hazards, but how else can we STOP the secondary, as the concept explains.

Obviously, killing users of Secondary Effects is stopping it. But we know what that does to the metagame. It kills users of Secondary Effects. However, we could learn much more from having a Pokemon that can switch in and make it so, without killing the user, Secondary Effects can't even come in! this is why I wanted poison over ground. With ground, the only thing that benefits from the stopping of Secondary Effects is the CAP. If we had gone with poison, we could absorb toxic spikes, which is beneficial to the whole team. Then, we could outfit this Pokemon with capabilities to stop trick, leech seed, etc. all through the use of defensive measures instead of offensive.

Please, someone tell me what we learn from having a STAB pursuit user. We know how Pursuit stops the Secondary. We are trying to learn more about the metagame, but it seems to me people are focused on making a sweeper that can just kill anything that would use secondary before they have a chance. In my opinion, that doesn't teach us anything at all. Therefore, I'm suggesting we consider have a somewhat defensive or even defensive bias so that we can learn what it means to truly STOP the secondary from occurring, instead of just punishing people who set up the secondary.

 

[Illithian]

Pink, how do we stop the secondary if it walls us?

Not only that, but with the typing this thing's got, how can we expect it to be somewhat defensive?

Anyway, bulky offense that absorbs status is what its looking like.

 

[SgtWoodsy]

Somewhat Offensive or Offensive.

"Stopping the secondary" is going to be difficult when you can't punish the secondary users. With such a good offensive typing, it would make sense to capitalize on CAP 9's strengths.

 

[Deck Knight]

So essentially Pink, your argument is to Stop the Secondary without taking out the pokemon that set it up.

And how, exactly, will you prevent them from setting it up again?

Point is, you need a level of offense that says "not only am I going to spin/Taunt away your secondary effect capabilities, I will be a constant threat to your team, thereby requiring you to go on the offensive if you don't want me to break your stall/secondary tactics."

By definition a pokemon that is still alive can still use its secondary effects. It might not have enough power to sweep, but who cares, it can Rest/Recover/be Wished back to health and set up all over again.

Tentacruel is the prime example of a defensive pokemon that can absorb Toxic Spikes. Unfortunately its weak offense means it can spin and then... ???

Clearly not punishing the secondary users has not worked before, otherwise it might not have been deemed a worthy subject for research. Tyranitar can't remove the hazards and Tentacruel can't threaten anything after it does.