I was split between Guts and Auto Magic Guard, eventually choosing the latter. Guts doesn't introduce anything into the metagame that Guts Machamp and Guts Hera can't do, but I wasn't sure if Magic Guard would be TOO good. Having Magic Guard on Clefable is already semi-viable in the OU environment, and this will definitely have better stats that that. In isolated playtesting, this CAP would be quite good in theory so far, and although it doesn't factor into the creation of a Pokemon, status in general would be almost non-existant once Fidgit and CAP9 start parading alongside one another.
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 7b - Ability Poll
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Guts encourages people to use CAP9 as a Toxic / Flame Orb abusing sweeper instead of a status absorber. Poison Heal has limited application, as CAP9 would still be vulnerable to a variety of status effects. I went with Auto Magic Coat.
Ummm... this is Magic Coat, not Magic Guard. The two are completely different.
If people argue and then decide about another ability not listed in here, will it still be put on poll, at least as a secondary ability?
That would certainly be good for the discussion. There are a lot of unsolved points about the usage of Guts on CAP9.
Good question: yeah, that'll fly.
That doesn't mean we have to pick them. There are also mutiple entries with 95 or less speed--95, 91, 90, and two 85s, and there's one with only 100 base attack. And stat submissions haven't even closed yet. Really, we should not consider very high attack and high speed to both be givens at this point, so this is not a reason to vote against Guts.
I went Guts because it won't be broken if the opponent doesn't use toxic spikes, toxic.or w-o-w (aka stall). Lets face it, fidgit and arg are already broken, and kitsunoh is really good too. Every cap is overpowered, and this one will at worst (I don't even think it is broken) counteract the stallish nature of CAP (due to our own inability or fear to create a decent sweeper) by creating an anti-stall sweeper. Technically, this will only discourage toxic spikes and will also wreck the ever-popular Rotom-A, which I am glad to see. Also, Skarmory is a complete counter to this guy as far as I can tell.
I'm not sure how Auto-Magic Guard will be, but it will either be underwhelming or broken.
One thing I can say about both abilities is that they deter secondary. I think that we should take the opportunity to make a true stall-breaker because if anything is broken it is walling things and putting up hazards to win (even though it is hard to make a good stall team).
I'm not sure how Auto-Magic Guard will be, but it will either be underwhelming or broken.
One thing I can say about both abilities is that they deter secondary. I think that we should take the opportunity to make a true stall-breaker because if anything is broken it is walling things and putting up hazards to win (even though it is hard to make a good stall team).
I ruled out Poison Heal since one of the things that many people said in the various discussions (and that I agree with) is that we want to STOP the secondary, not just prevent it against one Pokemon, and that to do so, we should be trying to punish secondary users.
Guts and the Auto-Magic Coat both do this; however, I went with Auto-Magic coat because I honestly think, that with the way the stat spread submissions are going, it'll be extremely broken with Guts.
It's attack is looking to be around 120 base, it's speed near 100 and it's overall bulk greater better than the likes of Celebi and Jirachi. With guts, this'll just become a Flame Orb sweeper, outspeeding a vast amount of enemies and annihilating them with +1 120 base attack STAB Earthquakes and Crunches. Along comes a very fast, prirority using or scarfed opponent, ready to take it down but thanks to it's fantastic bulk, it doesn't give a shit. Survives, destroys, continues sweeping. It doesn't even have a worrying 4x weakness to worry about like Scizor, Heatran, Salamence, Tyranitar or Gyarados, and is resistant to Stealth Rock.
Overall, Guts is really going to hurt. So this leaves the Auto-Magic coat. I think some people are saying this would be less broken than guts, but since it's only on the switch in that means it only punishes the user of the secondary attack, which is exactly what we want. Meanwhile, guts would punish the entire opposing team, regardless of whether they use Secondary effects (remember the Flame Orb possibility).
So, I voted Auto-Magic Coat.
Guts and the Auto-Magic Coat both do this; however, I went with Auto-Magic coat because I honestly think, that with the way the stat spread submissions are going, it'll be extremely broken with Guts.
It's attack is looking to be around 120 base, it's speed near 100 and it's overall bulk greater better than the likes of Celebi and Jirachi. With guts, this'll just become a Flame Orb sweeper, outspeeding a vast amount of enemies and annihilating them with +1 120 base attack STAB Earthquakes and Crunches. Along comes a very fast, prirority using or scarfed opponent, ready to take it down but thanks to it's fantastic bulk, it doesn't give a shit. Survives, destroys, continues sweeping. It doesn't even have a worrying 4x weakness to worry about like Scizor, Heatran, Salamence, Tyranitar or Gyarados, and is resistant to Stealth Rock.
Overall, Guts is really going to hurt. So this leaves the Auto-Magic coat. I think some people are saying this would be less broken than guts, but since it's only on the switch in that means it only punishes the user of the secondary attack, which is exactly what we want. Meanwhile, guts would punish the entire opposing team, regardless of whether they use Secondary effects (remember the Flame Orb possibility).
So, I voted Auto-Magic Coat.
I also ruled out Poison Heal first because it only stops one type of secondary. Between Auto-Magic Coat and Guts, I honestly felt that Guts was the way to go. Since CAP9 is going to be kind of offensive but moderately bulky, Guts will boost its attack to make it a more versatile CAP, giving it the ability to fill multiple niches, perhaps not as well, but the unpredictableness may help. I also thoughtthat Auto-Magic Coat may be too much, as it would give it a special dimension to mind games with teams. Not only that, but most teams would include CAP9, and I don't think the point of making CAPs is to be able to make a good team solely made of CAPs.
In my opinion, guts doesn't make it more versatile; it makes it less versatile. If guts is used, by far the most used moveset will be a flame orb one, which will be probably very effective but at the same time very predictable. And if it doesn't become predictable, it'll simply become broken, due to the large attack increase, and given the type of spread that's being submitted (high attack, high speed, and pretty damn bulky). I see it becoming sort of like Scizor: everyone will use essentially the same moveset; it will be very predictable, but very effective due to the fact that it's so damn strong. It won't be interesting and it won't really teach us anything about the metagame.
Auto-Magic Coat (I assume this name will be changed when (if) it's implemented? :P) will be versatile simply due to the fact that the ability won't contribute to any one particular moveset, but instead it will boost the effectiveness of essentially all movesets it could run. It's clearly the more versatile option. How can you claim that guts will lead to less predictability than this?
Sorry if I've repeated things others have said. I didn't read everything preceding this post.
Edit: Also, what's the point of bolding it any time you mention an ability? I thought the bold was to show people what you support.
I think that the current OU metagame knows enough about Guts users thanks to Heracross, Machamp, etc. I like Beej's Auto-Magic Guard ability because it does counter secondary effects, but it is not broken.
Auto Magic Coat
I voted Auto Magic Coat, as I feel it best suits the "stopping the secondary" role. While poison heal would be great, that's a very small portion of the secondary being stopped, and simply isn't benificial enough of an ability for a pokemon with this one's purpose. Guts, while being less limiting than poison heal, still leaves a huge gap in secondary moves. SR, tspikes, leech seed, sleep, etc. need to be dealt with, and this is the best way for it to be quickly and swiftly done.
I voted Auto Magic Coat, as I feel it best suits the "stopping the secondary" role. While poison heal would be great, that's a very small portion of the secondary being stopped, and simply isn't benificial enough of an ability for a pokemon with this one's purpose. Guts, while being less limiting than poison heal, still leaves a huge gap in secondary moves. SR, tspikes, leech seed, sleep, etc. need to be dealt with, and this is the best way for it to be quickly and swiftly done.
Two things:
1. Does Auto-Magic Coat only work on the first turn it's in? Like when you either send it in after something faints or a switch-in?
2. Also, when you run Auto-Magic Coat it just becomes an oh. I shouldn't use this move because it'll just switch in. Therefore, wouldn't it become kind of like Diamond/Pearl where you don't use any strategy like statusing just because there's going to be no point? (The reason there's no point is different, though.) When you run Guts, however, the most popular set may be a Flame Orb set similar to Swellow, but that doesn't mean it's the only viable set.
About the Auto-Magic Coat (I'm getting pretty tired of this name)... How will it boost the effectiveness of movesets if the reason you use this ability is to switch-in? Is it because CAP9 will get stat-up moves to use when your opponent inevitably switches out?
I don't think that this CAP will turn into a Scizor, because:
1. It doesn't have a damn strong priority move (Scizor's STAB Technician (most likely) CB Bullet Punch).
2. It has a lot more weaknesses (Bug, Fighting, Grass, Water, Ice) then Scizor, and its weaknesses are pretty common.
3. Even it does turn into a Scizor, it will be just like a Scizor. Everyone will be carrying a counter for it. For example, I know people who put pokes like Heatran on their team just so it can effectively counter it.
Guts would just encourage sweeper-status in my opinion, especially if CAP gets access to Fire Punch (I don't think any commonly used defensive Pokemon will be able to avoid a 2hko from a +1 Earthquake/Crunch/Fire Punch from anything over 110 ATK, with the possible except of Max/Max+ Suicune and Swampert).
I'm okay with Poison Heal.
Auto Magic Coat would probably be the best option of the abilities listed, but does it also block/"reflect" trick? If not, we need to modify it a little (while possibly getting rid of its block on something else)
I'm okay with Poison Heal.
Auto Magic Coat would probably be the best option of the abilities listed, but does it also block/"reflect" trick? If not, we need to modify it a little (while possibly getting rid of its block on something else)
I chose Guts over Poison Heal & Auto Magic Coat. I never was a huge fan of Auto Magic Coat, so it was really down to Guts and Poison Heal for me. Guts will instantly put the pressure on secondary users, discouraging them from using secondary moves for fear of having their whole team swept.
However unlike Breloom, it seems like CAP 9 will be getting some decent bulky (many Stat Spread Submissions give it a fair amount), so it would be able to abuse Poison Heal even better than Breloom herself. Because of where we have decided to go with CAP 9, I think Guts is the best choice for an ability.
However unlike Breloom, it seems like CAP 9 will be getting some decent bulky (many Stat Spread Submissions give it a fair amount), so it would be able to abuse Poison Heal even better than Breloom herself. Because of where we have decided to go with CAP 9, I think Guts is the best choice for an ability.
Voted for Guts.
I am of the belief that we shouldn't have to resort to creating a move/Ability/etc. every time we want to go through this process in order to explore the metagame.
Now, while I like AMC (let's call it Iron Curtain, shall we), Guts is already perfectly usable, and fits the concept to a T.
I am of the belief that we shouldn't have to resort to creating a move/Ability/etc. every time we want to go through this process in order to explore the metagame.
Now, while I like AMC (let's call it Iron Curtain, shall we), Guts is already perfectly usable, and fits the concept to a T.
I voted for Poison Heal.
As stated about 100 times already, custom abilities should be avoided unless a current ability does not help the concept. Therefor, with Posion Heal, Guts, Marvel Scale, Magic Guard, Synchronise, Quick Feet, and all of the 'X is immune to Y status' abilities, I think we can say that AMC is not needed.
Guts, while good, I feel will be broken on a CAP with a Base speed that seems like it will top 100, and a Base Attack that seems like it will top 110. Machamp and Heracross (The two OU Guts users), both have massive attack, but both are hampered by poor speed. Same goes for almost all guts users. There's a reason why a fast, already powerful pokemon hasn't been given Guts already.
This left me with Poison Heal. Which, is a good ability. Near Immunity to status, full immunity if you get a free-switch in on one of CAP9's immunities (Thunder Wave, Electric Attacks, Psychic Attacks, or, in this case, Toxic). In addittion, it cures this otherwise Toxic Spikes weak CAP of that weakness. Considering it seems like it's already been decided that this CAP will have Rapid Spin (Another reason for the Dark Type, and just look at the Art thread. More than enough pics showing the concept Rapid Spinning), Toxic Spikes not dealing damage, but healing instead sounds like a good idea. Let's all remember, if CAP9 has a Toxic Orb, it's blocked from ALL status after the turn that it's switched in. Burns, Freeze, Sleep, Paralysis from Body Slam and Stun Spore/Glare, and Poision. So those of you saying it stops 1 kind of status, are speaking nonsence.
Remember, with Poision Heal, on a bulky pokemon, (Unlike Breloom), you can switch in. Predict a Toxic from Blissey? CAP9. Toxic Spikes are up from Roserade? CAP9. And you can still slap Leftovers/Life Orb ect on it too, so you get either insane healing, that Stallrein would be jeleous of, or Life Orb recoil healed right off.
Anyone besides me noticed that, despite the lack of in-thread posts supporting Auto Magic Coat, it's winning?
As stated about 100 times already, custom abilities should be avoided unless a current ability does not help the concept. Therefor, with Posion Heal, Guts, Marvel Scale, Magic Guard, Synchronise, Quick Feet, and all of the 'X is immune to Y status' abilities, I think we can say that AMC is not needed.
Guts, while good, I feel will be broken on a CAP with a Base speed that seems like it will top 100, and a Base Attack that seems like it will top 110. Machamp and Heracross (The two OU Guts users), both have massive attack, but both are hampered by poor speed. Same goes for almost all guts users. There's a reason why a fast, already powerful pokemon hasn't been given Guts already.
This left me with Poison Heal. Which, is a good ability. Near Immunity to status, full immunity if you get a free-switch in on one of CAP9's immunities (Thunder Wave, Electric Attacks, Psychic Attacks, or, in this case, Toxic). In addittion, it cures this otherwise Toxic Spikes weak CAP of that weakness. Considering it seems like it's already been decided that this CAP will have Rapid Spin (Another reason for the Dark Type, and just look at the Art thread. More than enough pics showing the concept Rapid Spinning), Toxic Spikes not dealing damage, but healing instead sounds like a good idea. Let's all remember, if CAP9 has a Toxic Orb, it's blocked from ALL status after the turn that it's switched in. Burns, Freeze, Sleep, Paralysis from Body Slam and Stun Spore/Glare, and Poision. So those of you saying it stops 1 kind of status, are speaking nonsence.
Remember, with Poision Heal, on a bulky pokemon, (Unlike Breloom), you can switch in. Predict a Toxic from Blissey? CAP9. Toxic Spikes are up from Roserade? CAP9. And you can still slap Leftovers/Life Orb ect on it too, so you get either insane healing, that Stallrein would be jeleous of, or Life Orb recoil healed right off.
Anyone besides me noticed that, despite the lack of in-thread posts supporting Auto Magic Coat, it's winning?
There are plenty of people who would vote on the poll but are too wary about posting in the thread at risk of not sounding "competitive" or educated enough and possibly getting infracted.
Among these people, many would vote for Auto Magic Coat just because it's a made-up ability. People like anything fresh and new, it's the only discerning factor for people who don't have any competitive reasoning or aren't weighing up the positives and negatives of each in a competitive sense.
However, I can say I voted for Auto Magic Coat for many of the reasons already stated; it's the only one that truly deters (and thus stops) the secondary from using a secondary move.
For the other two, it won't really matter as it'll likely just be a Toxic/Flame Orb thrown on. Despite what people say, I still believe Flame Orb set with Guts will by far be most popular. For anything else, the stat spead will have to be a completely out of the blue, drastic variation from all the stat spread suggestions so far.
Poison Heal is a bit less black and white but I still don't like it very much, won't really stop the secondary imo.
I went Auto Magic coat, since Guts would make it a TOrb Sweeper with its insane speed and attack many of the stat submissions have, Poison Heal is too defensive, recovering large amounts of health off what will probably be a huge HP Stat is overpowering, imo. And if you switch in too early, and get T-Waved, the ability becomes useless.
If anything, secondary users will start thinking twice before spamming their secondary moves.
If anything, secondary users will start thinking twice before spamming their secondary moves.
Auto-Magic Coat is the best out of the three, simply because it punishes status use rather than just blocking it.
(Incidentally, I hope people aren't voting for it just for the novelty value...)
With the other abilities, CAP9's five weaknesses would make it quite difficult to stay in and make use of Poison Heal, and as others have noted, Guts just encourages stand-alone status orb-sweeping, rather than supporting the team (which it should, imo).
@Raikaria, I count ~15 posts before yours supporting AMC, I wouldn't call that a "lack".
(Incidentally, I hope people aren't voting for it just for the novelty value...)
With the other abilities, CAP9's five weaknesses would make it quite difficult to stay in and make use of Poison Heal, and as others have noted, Guts just encourages stand-alone status orb-sweeping, rather than supporting the team (which it should, imo).
@Raikaria, I count ~15 posts before yours supporting AMC, I wouldn't call that a "lack".
To be honest, all of these abilities are bad, but I decided on Auto Magic Coat in the end.
Auto Magic Coat - Apart from Yawn users and Spore-using Smeargle, I can't think of a single pokemon that would absolutely hate being hit by the secondary effect it tries to use. Users of Leech Seed are always grass-types and are immune to Leech Seed anyway. Users of Thunder Wave and Toxic can rid themselves of the status with Aromatherapy/Heal Bell or Natural Cure or, in the case of Toxic, are immune to the move anyway. Users of Will-o-Wisp are either fire-types or special attackers that won't mind the attack drop from burn. Spore and Yawn are about the only sleep-inducing moves anyone ever uses and the former appears only on Smeargle and Breloom in OU, and Breloom often carries Toxic Orb to abuse Poison Heal and protect it from status anyway. Nobody ever uses a move for the purpose of altering the target's stats, only Baton Pass teams use trapping moves and they can still use Baton Pass if they get hit by a trapping move, and nobody ever uses Gastro Acid, Worry Seed or Attract.
tl;dr: Auto Magic Coat is almost 100% useless.
Guts - On the other hand, Guts is going to break CAP9. The attack stats people want vary from Flygon levels to Rhyperior levels, while the speed stats people want vary from Lucario levels to Dugtrio levels, and the majority of stat spreads have both higher attack and higher speed. Notice how all the Guts users have either high attack or high speed, not both. What do you get when you combine an attack stat well over 500, a speed stat over 330 and defences that give CAP9 an easy time to switch in? The answer: something broken, unless we nerf this pokemon's movepool so that it doesn't get any physical moves with a base power over 60. It's not even like Guts relies on the opponent unwittingly hitting CAP9 with Will-o-Wisp on the switch-in. People can just slap a Toxic Orb or Flame Orb on a Guts pokemon and, with the way the stat spread submissions are looking, sweep the opponent's entire team. Guts will make CAP9 too powerful.
Poison Heal - This thing shares a problem with Guts: it does not rely on the opponent doing something to CAP9. Slap a Toxic Orb on a pokemon with either Guts or Poison Heal and call it a day. It does nothing to those who try to use secondary effect moves against it. It fails to deter people from mindlessly using secondary effect moves. The "extra survivability" won't help much on something with five weaknesses and only decent defences. Poison Heal is 100% useless.
What I feel would have been a more suitable ability is one that would give CAP9 a temporary benefit from being hit by a non-damaging move.
Auto Magic Coat - Apart from Yawn users and Spore-using Smeargle, I can't think of a single pokemon that would absolutely hate being hit by the secondary effect it tries to use. Users of Leech Seed are always grass-types and are immune to Leech Seed anyway. Users of Thunder Wave and Toxic can rid themselves of the status with Aromatherapy/Heal Bell or Natural Cure or, in the case of Toxic, are immune to the move anyway. Users of Will-o-Wisp are either fire-types or special attackers that won't mind the attack drop from burn. Spore and Yawn are about the only sleep-inducing moves anyone ever uses and the former appears only on Smeargle and Breloom in OU, and Breloom often carries Toxic Orb to abuse Poison Heal and protect it from status anyway. Nobody ever uses a move for the purpose of altering the target's stats, only Baton Pass teams use trapping moves and they can still use Baton Pass if they get hit by a trapping move, and nobody ever uses Gastro Acid, Worry Seed or Attract.
tl;dr: Auto Magic Coat is almost 100% useless.
Guts - On the other hand, Guts is going to break CAP9. The attack stats people want vary from Flygon levels to Rhyperior levels, while the speed stats people want vary from Lucario levels to Dugtrio levels, and the majority of stat spreads have both higher attack and higher speed. Notice how all the Guts users have either high attack or high speed, not both. What do you get when you combine an attack stat well over 500, a speed stat over 330 and defences that give CAP9 an easy time to switch in? The answer: something broken, unless we nerf this pokemon's movepool so that it doesn't get any physical moves with a base power over 60. It's not even like Guts relies on the opponent unwittingly hitting CAP9 with Will-o-Wisp on the switch-in. People can just slap a Toxic Orb or Flame Orb on a Guts pokemon and, with the way the stat spread submissions are looking, sweep the opponent's entire team. Guts will make CAP9 too powerful.
Poison Heal - This thing shares a problem with Guts: it does not rely on the opponent doing something to CAP9. Slap a Toxic Orb on a pokemon with either Guts or Poison Heal and call it a day. It does nothing to those who try to use secondary effect moves against it. It fails to deter people from mindlessly using secondary effect moves. The "extra survivability" won't help much on something with five weaknesses and only decent defences. Poison Heal is 100% useless.
What I feel would have been a more suitable ability is one that would give CAP9 a temporary benefit from being hit by a non-damaging move.
You have, effectively, taken the words out of my mouth. Look at Heracross, for peat's sake! With 1 SD and Guts, it can OKAO EVERYTHING (thank you, CCAT) IN OU! It can OKAO a SKARMORY! It can OKAO GLISCOR! Of course, that bad 85 base speed keeps it a low threat, but if it is passed an Agility...
Now, I'm doubting that CAP9 will have SD. But still, Guts is FAR TO MUCH on a pokemon that will have more attack then Hera or Machamp, and with good speed.
Because of this, Auto Magic Coat is the best. Poison Heal doesn't seem to lend to the concept that much (if you have Toxic Orb, it stops CAP9 only from being statused), and Guts is WAY to much for a pokemon of this calabur. Auto Magic coat seems the best, since he can switch in and threaten the secondary users, as he IS one of the fastest pokemon out there (from the looks of it).
Poison Heal was an immediate drop off. Only real use for Poison Heal is with Toxic Orb and while it stops other effects from occuring that way i don't think that that was the idea for this CAP. Making Guts already better then this ability.
Guts is to obvious and when using Flame Orb also gives you damage each turn. It does give extra power but can't stop things like Leech Seed and other not effect status related things.
Auto Magic Coat doesn't give much complications like Guts can do. Except for of course predicting when you have to switch in and hope it was right. It also stops things as Leech Seed, Attract etc. which Guts cannot do anything against. Having a pokemon with Auto Magic Coat also stops your opponent from using such moves mostly. So that you can switch to other pokemon more easily as well. Auto Magic Coat provides a more wide area against secondary effects which makes it more reliable then the other two.
Overall i chose tactics over power and healing. So voted for Auto Magic Coat.
Guts is to obvious and when using Flame Orb also gives you damage each turn. It does give extra power but can't stop things like Leech Seed and other not effect status related things.
Auto Magic Coat doesn't give much complications like Guts can do. Except for of course predicting when you have to switch in and hope it was right. It also stops things as Leech Seed, Attract etc. which Guts cannot do anything against. Having a pokemon with Auto Magic Coat also stops your opponent from using such moves mostly. So that you can switch to other pokemon more easily as well. Auto Magic Coat provides a more wide area against secondary effects which makes it more reliable then the other two.
Overall i chose tactics over power and healing. So voted for Auto Magic Coat.
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