Just because the typing doesn't exist, doesn't mean we have a lot to learn from it. Lucario uses the Fighting/Dark attacking combo very often. There are no Dark/Ground types either, and that attacking combination isn't seen as often as Fighting/Dark. And yes Drapion and Skuntank are Dark/Poison typed but they are at 99 and 201 in usage respectively, so we can learn by making a viable Dark/Poison typing. And who says that our Dark/Poison will be anything like Drapion?Dark / Fighting has only 2 weaknesses to: Fighting & Flying. While Fighting is a fairly common attack type, Flying NOT, really only seen on the rare Togekiss and the Brave Bird Skarmory (who doesn't do a lot of damage.).
Dark/Poison has 1 weakness, which is to Ground. A Ground weakness is only slightly worse than Fighting. Also, Flying is more common in CAP because of all the fighters.
Dark / Fighting sports three 2x resistences, one 4x resistence,and one immunity. It resists Stealth Rock as well.
Dark/Poison has four x2 Resistances and an immunity.
The real defensive difference is a Grass resistance instead of a Rock one, and a Ground weakness over a Fighting one. But Dark/Fighting offers no help against the secondary.
Also Dark/Ground has 4 x2 resistances and 2 immunities. Yes it has four weaknesses but it has a lot to switch into.
Fighting as a secondary type is able to hit MANY of the secondary move users Super Effectively such as:
Abomasnow (Snow Warning, Leech Seed)
It already gets hail up, which is its main purpose. It is also fairly rare.
Blissey (Stealth Rock, Toxic, Thunder Wave)
Blissey doesn't like ANY physical attack.
Cloyster (Spikes, Toxic Spikes)
Cloyster is never seen in OU.
Drapion (Toxic Spikes)
Drapion is rarely seen in OU. But it doesn't even matter because Fighting only hits it neutraly
Empoleon (Stealth Rock)
Empoleon is only rarely seen with Stealth Rocks, its only the 21st most used lead in OU.
Heatran (Stealth Rock, Toxic)
Fighting is good against it.
Mamoswine (Stealth Rock)
Fighting is fine, but its is more commonly seen as a straight up attacker
Magnezone (Thunder Wave, Gravity)
Magnezone rarely uses T-Wave and NEVER uses Gravity.
Omastar (Spikes)
Never seen in OU
Skarmory (On The Roost) (Stealth Rock, Spikes)
Thats fine.
Tyranitar (Sand Stream, Stealth Rock)
T-Tar will get up sand either way. Sure you can revenge it, but so can any other OU Fighting
I just listed the ones that are OU or are commonly seen in OU, there are many more. Among these are some of the most common effect users in OU.
Of the eleven you listed, four are rare in OU. Of the other seven, three rarely use secondary moves and one will get its up anyway. That leaves with Blissey, Heatran, and Skarm if it is Roosting: not that great. i'm not denying that fighting is a great offensive type, but it isn't amazing against secondary users.
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- Dark / Fighting has not been used before in a type. I think we have more to learn from using a typing combination such as Dark / Fighting then we do a combination that has already been used (Poison / Dark = Drapion & Skuntank, and that typing is essentially the same.)
Which is exactly why everybody voted for something else. BECAUSE Fighting is too safe, and BECAUSE ALL the reasons you gave were because Fighting is good at resisting and covering weakness. Bringing back what Doug said, we don't need to make it perfect in every battle situation, the only thing about Fighting that fulfills the concept is a resistance to SR.Fighting, however, balances the aspects--it doesn't have too many weaknesses, only netting two and can still hit stuff like Steels pretty well. Thus, it seems the best way to go for me. Compared to Fighting, the cons the other two have make them look like they'll be giving CAP9 much more rough waters to have to tread through, IMO, and leaves me really iffy on them as a result.
Why should we intentionally handicap a Pokemon? I dislike this argument a lot, why not make it the best it can be? Fighting might be safe, but it works. It's not like making it Fighting will make it Uber, we still have a lot of work to do with it, but Fighting will make any direction feasible, Ground almost kills it defensively.Which is exactly why everybody voted for something else. BECAUSE Fighting is too safe, and BECAUSE ALL the reasons you gave were because Fighting is good at resisting and covering weakness. Bringing back what Doug said, we don't need to make it perfect in every battle situation, the only thing about Fighting that fulfills the concept is a resistance to SR.
At least Ground covers that too, with Sandstorm immunity and an immunity to Thunder Wave, which are both necessary.
My issue with Fighting, as I continue to bring up, is that what exactly does it bring to the table other than its offensive prowerss and defensive synergy? It doesn't follow the concept of 'Stopping the Secondary'. If this was 'Beat the Secondary Senseless', then I suppose Fighting would be garnering more attention.Naxte said:Fighting, however, balances the aspects--it doesn't have too many weaknesses, only netting two and can still hit stuff like Steels pretty well. Thus, it seems the best way to go for me. Compared to Fighting, the cons the other two have make them look like they'll be giving CAP9 much more rough waters to have to tread through, IMO, and leaves me really iffy on them as a result.
-Gives it a better shot against Skarmory and Forretress, two common users of Field Effects, without having Ground's five weaknesses, and without Poison's problem of finding some way of dealing with them without any STAB moves (which for it would be even more annoying should we end up going Physical, since Skarmory and Forretress have high Defense).My issue with Fighting, as I continue to bring up, is that what exactly does it bring to the table other than its offensive prowerss and defensive synergy? It doesn't follow the concept of 'Stopping the Secondary'. If this was 'Beat the Secondary Senseless', then I suppose Fighting would be garnering more attention.
Both of which could easily be resolved by giving Poison a Fire type move, and a passable Special Attack Stat. Also, Fighting is only going to do more to Skarmory when it Roosts. Otherwise, it will just laugh at your attacks. (Assuming pure STAB here, since only Poison's STAB's keep being brought up.)-Gives it a better shot against Skarmory and Forretress, two common users of Field Effects, without having Ground's five weaknesses, and without Poison's problem of finding some way of dealing with them without any STAB moves (which for it would be even more annoying should we end up going Physical, since Skarmory and Forretress have high Defense).
Blissey doesn't like any strong Physical Attack. As a matter of fact, Tyranitar can severely cripple it with STAB Pursuit, which our CAP Pokemon now has access too. We're talking about typing right now. Movepools and Stats will be strongly reflected by what types we choose. I seriously doubt that if Poison or Ground make it through, the entire community is going to leave them both wide open to Blissey. Why can't they both get Brick Break? Pretty much any Pokemon with arms gets it already.-Still gives us a shot against Blissey, another common spammer of Status, should we actually end up making this thing more of a Special-attacker.
Again, a Pokemon's movepool is not simply limited to it's STAB moves. A great OU example of this is none other than the offensive powerhouse itself, Salamence. When was the last time you saw a Salamence with a STAB Flying move? I can honestly say I never have. That's because Flying gives it an extremely useful immunity (Ground), but offers nothing really in terms of attack. It still does well however. Why? Because it can use Earthquake, Flamethrower, etc. That only reinforces my point behind Poison. It gives excellent resistances, an immunity, but you will most likely never attack with it.IN other words, it allows us to actually deal with the Pokemon that are spamming secondary-effect moves, without having a buttload of weaknesses (Ground) or having a poor offensive-typing combination.
So your whole arguement for a type that can't really stop any secondary moves is, "We'll fix that with the Ability"?Fighting may not actually give it any Status immunities, but there's still the Ability for that, so it's not too much of a problem.
So, Poison is absolutely worthless once it switches in? I didn't realize that an entire type could do absolutely nothing outside of absorbing Toxic Spikes and Toxic status. Surely you aren't implying that Poison, once switching in on a mispredict, is utterly helpless. I can also safely assume that this CAP is going to be relatively bulky. It would not serve the Concept well at all if it ended up fainting after a hit or two.Whereas if we don't make sure we can actually switch in on them should we mispredict and they actually use an attack (Ground's problem), and actually be able to do something to them once we come in (Poison's problem; yeah, you'll be able to switch in on Toxics, but what after that? What's it going to be doing once in?), the status-immunities aren't going to really be meaning much comparatively. As a result, Fighting seems to have the best balance of pros and cons to me, and that's why I'm supporting.
Of course not. It will be foolhardy to even attempt that. However, that does not mean it should have no immunities at all, and in the end putting all the pressure solely on the ability.In summary: Not every aspect of the CAP can be built around stopping some secondary-effect.
And I should just assume that Dark/Fighting will automatically be able to function as well? What if it ends up with something like a 70 in Attack? Then how is it going to reliably threaten anything, STAB or not? Yes, I know that is an extreme example, and very unlikely to happen due to the fact that is was chosen as Dark for Pursuit. However, I was merely providing an example, with significant evidence to back it up. Assuming only goes so far for both parties. Until the actual movepool and stats threads come out, anything other than "This type offers this. This type offers this." is really a moot point, imo. (And I can be guilty of poll jumping easily as well.)Edit: As for the possibility of a Poison-type getting Stuff like Flamethrower, that's still relying on it's stat-build, which we can't be sure of yet. If it ends up getting a Special Attack of something like 40, even those won't help too much. Thus, I don't want to rely on that possibility too much right now, as I can't be sure that those attacks will actually be something that will work at this stage.