Policy Review Create-A-Pokemon Policy Review

[tennisace]

The random people voting with no real knowledge of the project as a whole hurts the project more than it helps. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of new people coming and helping. Thats the key word: HELPING. Drive-by voters are doing exactly what the name implies: hurting the project by voting, getting fed up when they're proven wrong, and leave. Just now in the Stat Spread Thread, someone wanted a Dragon with a 719 rating and a 600 BST! We need some way to deal with this, but I don't know how without alienating new voters. The easiest method would be a "Post Quota" like the "You must be this tall to ride the ferris wheel" signs. Users that just joined can't participate until they have X posts. This is a horrible idea, but outside of it, I can't see a way to remedy this. Anyone else have ideas?

 

[omgthatkid]

I agree with tennisace to a certain extent, but he's talking about me.
I'm not some "Drive-by" voter.
tennisace didn't read all of my posts, and went on the assumption I was proposing a Dragon type with 600BST.
If you go into the thread and read, you'll see what the complaint was.
I was merely toying with an improbable idea, as i stated in the thread earlier.

 

[X-Act]

I don't have any problem that "600BST" spreads are posted... as long as their Stats Rating is low! I can post a 600 BST spread having only around 350 Stats Rating.

I'd try to refrain from even mentioning BST. BST should die out from our Poke-language.

 

[Aldaron]

I'd like to propose that the art thread be opened after the type has been decided.

I'll explain why if this idea will be considered (in other words, I don't want to waste time if you guys are dead set on having it open when it does)

 

[DougJustDoug]

The problem is this:

If we open the art thread later, we'll have to infract more people, delete more posts, and moderate the other threads more heavily. That's a huge pain in the ass. And it really makes me feel like a bad guy, considering most people poll-jump because they are over-enthusiastic. All that heavy-handed moderation just puts a damper on the project. And, as you well know, momentum is key here on the CAP project.

By opening the art thread early, it causes some problems. But, I think those problems are offset by the greater good served by giving the community an outlet for what it very much wants to do regardless. Just look at all the posts and comments in the art thread right now.

 

[X-Act]

I'm not understanding exactly the purpose of the bast stat spread discussion. The way I understand it is that it 'tests the waters' and allows the TL to then choose people who want to submit stat spreads. Is this correct?

 

[DougJustDoug]

I'm not understanding exactly the purpose of the bast stat spread discussion. The way I understand it is that it 'tests the waters' and allows the TL to then choose people who want to submit stat spreads. Is this correct?

Yes that's the "public" reason for the thread. The "real" reason is to give a home to all the people that like to discuss stats in excruciating detail throughout the entire CAP process. As you can see in the thread right now, there's a lot of energy around stat discussions, even though we have NO CLUE about the final typing, bias, build -- anything really. But, people love to throw around stat spreads. So, rather than moderate these people into oblivion, we decided "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".

I don't think all that discussion is going to waste. And presumably, some of those folks will stand out to Sunday when he goes to choose submitters.

 

[X-Act]

So basically, if a person intends to submit a stat spread later on, he is obliged to post a stat spread also in that thread... right? Otherwise the TL would never choose him.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Yes. Hopeful stat submitters should participate in the ongoing stat spread discussion. Being selected to submit a stat spread, should be the "reward" for active participation and good well-reasoned discourse in the stat submission thread. That's the intent anyway.

Technically, the TL can pick whoever he wants, for whatever reason he wants. But, the goal is to encourage quality participation in the project. What constitutes "quality participation" in the stat thread? That's up to the TL. Technically, someone could make a single post in that thread and if it blows the TL away with its beautiful prose, insightful logic, and puissant stat distribution -- they could be selected as a submitter from that alone.

I hope that doesn't happen. I'd like the submitters to be rewarded for making multiple good posts, provoking thoughtful discussion, and encouraging others to join in the analysis. But, it's really the TL's call.

 

[omgthatkid]

I would like to suggest some addition to Shoddy that allows the community to play around with Base Stats. Right now it's all about "theorizing" which spreads will work. I think if we have the ability to experiment with our own Stat Spreads, it will greatly help with the final Spread.
If it's possible, a certain Pokemon can be selected with it's same movepool. The user could then change it's stats (and typing?) and battle with that Pokemon on the CAP Server. There could be a new find tab that uses experimental BST's rather than creating some new server.

Without this our stat spreads will be completely theoretical and lack much substance. This would help with the Stat Spread portion of the CAP process. If this was implemented it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[tennisace]

That makes no sense. If you change an existing pokemon's spread, it will have nothing to do with a new pokemon's spread. Thats like saying I'm going to put mayo on a spicy chicken sandwich to see how its going to taste on a hamburger. The two are completely unrelated. I'm hungry.

 

[omgthatkid]

I'm suggesting an experiment with a Stat Spread.
The reason I put (and typing?) was because we may want to further experiment with the typing+Stat Spread combo.
At this stage we have no sprite, we have no movepool, and we have no ability. "Borrowing" these things from an existing Pokemon to experiment with the Stat Spreads is exactly what we need in my opinion.

 

[tennisace]

What if it had an origional type combo? Then what. We aren't going to pre-make the pokemon and allow users to screw with the shoddy code, one because its unfeasible from a coding standpoint, and two because its not a good idea.

 

[omgthatkid]

Well that's your opinion.
You arent in charge of this thread.
And I was proposing it to someone who could actually put it to work.
I was also wondering if it was doable, and I can't be sure if you actually answered that correctly.
I'll wait for a real answer.

 

[tennisace]

Actually, I'm pretty sure i can answer that question, as I program too, but just not in Java. You're right I'm not in charge. However seeing as this is the POLICY REVIEW, I have the right to REVIEW any POLICY and comment on said POLICY in any manner I choose. I can say with almost 100% certainty that your idea will get shot down. Allowing just anyone to interface with the Shoddy Source Code directly is asking for trouble, which is what you're asking. And this is a real answer, because if you don't want just ANYONE to comment on your idea don't post it in a public thread and then get all high on your non-existent horse when someone points out a flaw in your idea.

 

[omgthatkid]

If you do Programming, then to a certain extent I guess you answered whether it was doable.
But you weren't being constructive as to how we could better experiment with stat spreads.
If you're going to be negative you at least need to add helpful information at the same time rather than completely shooting down an idea.
Do you have a suggestions regarding how we can move past "theorymon" on effective stat spreads?

 

[tennisace]

In reality, there IS no way other than theorymon, because that's what the project is based on. If you wanted to, you could manually input stats and use a damage calculator. Even then, that would only give you rough estimates of its ability against supposed counters and things it counters, which involves more theorymon. So really, we can't escape theorymon.

 

[Elevator Music]

In reality, there IS no way other than theorymon, because that's what the project is based on. If you wanted to, you could manually input stats and use a damage calculator. Even then, that would only give you rough estimates of its ability against supposed counters and things it counters, which involves more theorymon. So really, we can't escape theorymon.

This^. It's impossible to get past theorymon if it's the only thing the project has to go on. Especially since all we have at this point is a concept, typing, some art, and some thrown around base stats. We'd need more than that.

 

[Aldaron]

I would like to request that the Base Stat submission topic be delayed until after the bias topics have been decided.

I argue for this because to make any worthwhile submission, you need to have at least some direction, and knowing the bias is enough to make thoughtful submissions.

I appreciate the energy in the topic, but it could be better used in more relevant areas, as currently about 90% of it is wasted energy.

 

[X-Act]

I see Aldaron's point about the base stats submissions thread, but I wouldn't open it later. I think it provides a good indication to the TL as to which people want to submit a base stat spread. It's not important that most stat spreads do not conform to the voted ratings that will be set in stone later; all that matters is that the TL gets a grasp on which people intend to submit base stats. I actually don't see the base stats submitted as a waste of time.

 

[TAY]

I agree with Aldaron. Everyone has different ideas about what they want this thing to be, and there are simply too many wildly different suggestions to yield any sort of worthwhile discussion. Even now almost every other post is a new submission, and the actual discussion is limited to a very small handful of individuals.

Each part of the CaP process builds on everything before it, and without the bias poll as a foundation, the BST poll has no real meaning.

By now most people who want to submit a spread already have, and the people who haven't can wait a day or two for the more focused discussion. With 7 pages of submissions and discussion, I think it should be clear to the TL by now which people want to contribute to this part of the process.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I would like to request that the Base Stat submission topic be delayed until after the bias topics have been decided.

I argue for this because to make any worthwhile submission, you need to have at least some direction, and knowing the bias is enough to make thoughtful submissions.

I appreciate the energy in the topic, but it could be better used in more relevant areas, as currently about 90% of it is wasted energy.

I don't disagree with your intent here. I think it is somewhat of a waste of time to have detailed discussions of actual stat spreads, without the bias polls completed. However, if we do not have dedicated thread for this, people will just discuss stats in all the other threads. I addressed this concern a little earlier when X-Act asked about the purpose of the thread.

Yes that's the "public" reason for the thread. The "real" reason is to give a home to all the people that like to discuss stats in excruciating detail throughout the entire CAP process. As you can see in the thread right now, there's a lot of energy around stat discussions, even though we have NO CLUE about the final typing, bias, build -- anything really. But, people love to throw around stat spreads. So, rather than moderate these people into oblivion, we decided "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".

I don't think all that discussion is going to waste. And presumably, some of those folks will stand out to Sunday when he goes to choose submitters.

I don't know why so many people like to talk about stat spreads so much so early. I don't really care why they like it. They obviously enjoy the discussion and they WILL discuss detailed stat spreads, whether we have a dedicated thread or not. That leaves me three choices:

1) Allow detailed stat spread discussions to sidetrack all the other CAP threads

2) Moderate every single stat spread post in all the other threads (ie. infract the posters for making off-topic posts)

3) Open a thread and let everyone have their discussion without sidetracking the rest of the project

Option 1 is what we had before, and it was unacceptable. Option 2 requires me to be even more of a hard-ass on everyone, as if I don't have a million off-topic posts to moderate already. I could do that, and I don't have a problem playing the heavy on this stuff, but I'd prefer not to. Therefore, we went with Option 3.

Aside from a few posts here and there, I think the post quality has been reasonable in that thread. I don't think the discussion has been a total waste. I also agree with X-Act regarding the "proving ground" for potential stat spread submitters. I think that thread has been relatively successful at achieving its real goals.

 

[omgthatkid]

I request having the results of the various polls on the CAP Server kept private until the end.
I believe to be true that people will naturally "vote for the underdog" in a tight race, as proven by the poll from yesterday continuing today.
After 24 hours of the poll being open, "Slightly Defensive" had a seemingly clear lead after a day of leading back and forth between it and "Moderately Defensive."
Sunday then opened a new poll while keeping that poll open, under the assumption that "Slightly Defensive" had won.
Because of this tendency (theoretically), Sunday has now been put in a tight situation.
I don't think that should happen to another TL again.
I also don't think an option should be selected because of a "tendency" rather than actual thought.
This decision could encourage people to vote for their preference rather than vote for an "inevitable" choice in a poll.

 

[Sunday]

I request having the results of the various polls on the CAP Server kept private until the end.
I believe to be true that people will naturally "vote for the underdog" in a tight race, as proven by the poll from yesterday continuing today.
After 24 hours of the poll being open, "Slightly Defensive" had a seemingly clear lead after a day of leading back and forth between it and "Moderately Defensive."
Sunday then opened a new poll while keeping that poll open, under the assumption that "Slightly Defensive" had won.
Because of this tendency (theoretically), Sunday has now been put in a tight situation.
I don't think that should happen to another TL again.

Reposting my explanation:

Ugh, this is awkward.

At the time of closing the previous poll, "Between -5 and -10 -- Slightly towards defence." had a very clear cut lead of around 8%. The polls timer however had not finished, and "Between -20 and -10 --Moderately towards defense (Tentacruel, Spiritomb, Donphan)" seems to have made quite a remarkable, last-minute comeback to finish on exactly equal votes.

Hrm, I need to concider exactly what to do for a little while...

Also please note poll timers can only be set in 1 day incriments (First thing I tried) and that I don't have the power to end polls so I had to leave it running :(

I read that post.

I realised you must have, it's herre for others benefit.

 

[omgthatkid]

I read that post.
But I'm just saying that having a public poll may affect someone's decision, and may jeopardize a certain option's chance of winning, or put the TL in an awkward position.
I wouldn't mind a tie with a private poll, because that would mean that people's choices were not influenced by their rates of succeeding.
Then, the next step would be obvious, have another poll to decide the victor.