Okay, I really like where you're going here. Unaware is actually pretty relevant here. Shame it doesn't have any good priority options but at least it can wallbreak.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame Cross Evolution
- Thread starter smellslikememe
- Start date
If you're wallbreaking Swords Dance is probably the better option for a boosting move, 125 is faster than all the notable walls AFAIK.
Maybe I didn't phrase that properly. What I meant was more like a sweeper that can wallbreak, so it can counter Clodsparce or something.
Alright, Haxorus is actually amazing. I decided to use it with Bisharp and yeah, it definitely does its job. After a Dragon Dance, it outspeeds pretty much everything, and Sucker Punch helps against Pokémon with priority. Bonus points if you have hazards set up. However, it does struggle a bit againt Hippopotas-Gyarados or a similar Pokémon, because Intimidate lowers your Attack and unless you've set up multiple Dragon Dances, it can tank a hit and use Whirlwind or Earthquake. That being said, if you manage to eliminate it ahead of time, Bisharp-Haxorus is free to sweep the opposing team.
Here's the team I've been using so far (though it was slightly different before the bans. rest in pieces Scythdops)
https://pokepast.es/77fd2937388eb7fe
In short, it's a Sticky Web team that enables powerful threats, mainly Magneton-Vivillon and Magnemite-Frosmoth, to hit hard. Meanwhile Mudbray-Gyarados and a Wish passing Dunsparce-Vaporeon serve as the main defensive backbone.
I'm generally happy with it, but I'm open for suggestions, especially if there's something else I could use as a choiced breaker.
However, what I mainly wanted to talk about are two specific sets of that team that have served me pretty well. Those being Misdreavus-Masquerain and Mudbray-Gyarados.
Typing: Ghost/Flying
Stats: 90/90/90/135/115/100
I have been using this mon only for a short while, but I'm already liking how it plays out. It lays webs, spinblocks, irritates physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp and Intimidate, irritates defensive mons (and Defoggers!) with Taunt and a decent speed stat, it even has a solid Special Attack so it won't be passive. Alternatively one can slot in U-Turn and use it as a pivot. And then there's options like Thunder Wave or Haze, too.
The big issue here is no access to recovery moves, so repeated Hazard-setting and spinblocking attempts can prove difficult.
But then again, I use a Wishpasser on my team for a reason. Two reasons actually, the other being...
Typing: Ground/Flying
Stats: 145/215/94/90/135/46
Ever want to see a Specs Miraidon's Draco Meteor in Electric Terrain deal less than half to a non-resist? Boy, have I got news for you. What do you mean, Chansey exists? Shush.
But yeah, this guy's bulk actually slightly surpasses that of Eviolite Chansey, while boasting a monstrous attack stat that, even without investment, hits like a truck. Whenever I'm faced with a special attacker, I can throw this thing in front of it and usually threaten a 2HKO (if not a OHKO), while special moves just bounce right off. Intimidate helps it against physical attackers in a pinch, but it should obviously not the primary option to deal with those.
Of course, it's far from flawless: It's not the greatest against physical attackers, it has no recovery (unlike, say, Hippopotas-Gyarados), and using this means you can't cross-evolve anything else into Gyarados. It also somewhat struggles against bulky setup sweepers with recovery.
However, I've still grown attached to this set for the strengths it has, and it has stood valiantly in the face of countless Miraidons.I will not be held accountable for anyone using this without a wishpasser.
https://pokepast.es/77fd2937388eb7fe
In short, it's a Sticky Web team that enables powerful threats, mainly Magneton-Vivillon and Magnemite-Frosmoth, to hit hard. Meanwhile Mudbray-Gyarados and a Wish passing Dunsparce-Vaporeon serve as the main defensive backbone.
I'm generally happy with it, but I'm open for suggestions, especially if there's something else I could use as a choiced breaker.
However, what I mainly wanted to talk about are two specific sets of that team that have served me pretty well. Those being Misdreavus-Masquerain and Mudbray-Gyarados.
Typing: Ghost/Flying
Stats: 90/90/90/135/115/100
Masquerain (Misdreavus) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Sticky Web
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Sticky Web
The big issue here is no access to recovery moves, so repeated Hazard-setting and spinblocking attempts can prove difficult.
But then again, I use a Wishpasser on my team for a reason. Two reasons actually, the other being...
Typing: Ground/Flying
Stats: 145/215/94/90/135/46
Gyarados (Mudbray) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Iron Head
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Iron Head
But yeah, this guy's bulk actually slightly surpasses that of Eviolite Chansey, while boasting a monstrous attack stat that, even without investment, hits like a truck. Whenever I'm faced with a special attacker, I can throw this thing in front of it and usually threaten a 2HKO (if not a OHKO), while special moves just bounce right off. Intimidate helps it against physical attackers in a pinch, but it should obviously not the primary option to deal with those.
- +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Magneton-Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Mudbray: 156-185 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 86.1% chance to 3HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Mudbray: 186-220 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- +1 252+ SpA Misdreavus-Frosmoth Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Mudbray: 109-130 (22 - 26.3%) -- 13% chance to 4HKO
- +1 252+ SpA Misdreavus-Frosmoth Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Mudbray: 332-392 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
However, I've still grown attached to this set for the strengths it has, and it has stood valiantly in the face of countless Miraidons.
provides an interesting typing to this meta, beeing immune to ghost and boomburst while also beeing the one who can abuse it lol.In theory it can:
Last Respects spam under Sand. 100~ Atk and Speed is mid, but this move is so crazy that this does not matter. Facade for the burns and stab, Crunch for opposing Zorua-Hisui and a Trick to give the Choice Band to any passive switch.
Shell Smash. Basically it's Polteageist with better typing and much better stats.
Boomburst spam. Toxtriticy gives it stupidly high power, but mid speed Edit: BTW, since the base pokemon movepool is kept, it has Shadow Ball and Hyper Voice by nature. So it does not have to choose cross-evolution based on having or not stabs. More possible sets:
Quiver Dance without changing it's typing. Venomoth for the Tinted Lens ghost spam; Volcarona for fire power; Lilligant for a Chlorophyl mon with QD, 125 SpA and 130 Speed; Fromosth for Ice Scales with 100 SpDef, 115 Speed and 165 Spa.
3 immunities is fun to play, specially the fire one, but this is the only thing those offers.Also, Bisharp lost Gallade but it can cross-evolve into Tinkaton: 95/145/122/85/93/96, Gigaton Hammer, SD, Knock Off and Mold Breaker to ignore the Unaware mons.
Last edited:
Hey, I would like to mention that it's actually possible to have 2 Pokémon cross-evolve into the same Pokémon if the evolution has multiple forms, as it appears that the Evolutionary Species Clause is implemented via Nickname Clause.
Here's a Poképaste that's legal, despite both Pokémon being cross-evolved into the same Pokémon: https://pokepast.es/56426cd99ce6ad0d
It probably won't affect gameplay much, if at all, but I figured it was at least worth mentioning, as it feel like an exploit.
Here's a Poképaste that's legal, despite both Pokémon being cross-evolved into the same Pokémon: https://pokepast.es/56426cd99ce6ad0d
It probably won't affect gameplay much, if at all, but I figured it was at least worth mentioning, as it feel like an exploit.
Just a few posts up I was talking about how Mudbrados has grown attached to me and all. Yeah, about that...
Turns out, I found something else to play with
Introducing:
Typing: Ground/Flying
Stats: 115/155/59/95/180/71
This little guy has a statline similar to Mudbrados, but trades Attack and physical bulk for even more Special Defense, some Speed, and – most importantly – utility Moves such as Leech Seed, Rapid Spin and Knock Off.
Combining these moves with its massive special bulk and great attack turns Toedsdos into a spinner that's relatively unbothered by most ghosts, as they tend to attack from the special side. Of course there are exceptions, most notably Ceruledge evos. It's also a spinner with an immunity to (Toxic) Spikes and not weak to Rocks.
Gyarados (Toedscool) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD or 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Leech Seed
This is the set I'm currently running. I've used it with full SpD before (and I might go back to the SpD spread anyway), but putting the EVs in Defense gives it a considerable increase in physical bulk, while impacting the special bulk not that much, due to the huge 180 base stat.
I could of course run a physical Defense spread alongside an Assault Vest set similar to Mudbrados, in that case replacing Leech Seed with Stone Edge, but right now I prefer Leftovers and the ability to use Leech Seed.
As a sidenote: Here's an updated version of my team, running Toedsdos among other newcomers. I already won a decently sized OM room tour with this, so it can't be that bad, right?
https://pokepast.es/ed56f34b8d07a974
As a sidenote's sidenote: Bisharp-Tinkaton, with 252 speed EVs and Adamant nature, outspeeds Specs Miraidon (and other base 135s with positive nature) at -1 speed by 1 point. It also has a funny tech option in Ice Hammer to bonk said Miraidons, and also Hippodoses with.
Turns out, I found something else to play with
Introducing:
Typing: Ground/Flying
Stats: 115/155/59/95/180/71
This little guy has a statline similar to Mudbrados, but trades Attack and physical bulk for even more Special Defense, some Speed, and – most importantly – utility Moves such as Leech Seed, Rapid Spin and Knock Off.
Combining these moves with its massive special bulk and great attack turns Toedsdos into a spinner that's relatively unbothered by most ghosts, as they tend to attack from the special side. Of course there are exceptions, most notably Ceruledge evos. It's also a spinner with an immunity to (Toxic) Spikes and not weak to Rocks.
Gyarados (Toedscool) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD or 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Leech Seed
This is the set I'm currently running. I've used it with full SpD before (and I might go back to the SpD spread anyway), but putting the EVs in Defense gives it a considerable increase in physical bulk, while impacting the special bulk not that much, due to the huge 180 base stat.
I could of course run a physical Defense spread alongside an Assault Vest set similar to Mudbrados, in that case replacing Leech Seed with Stone Edge, but right now I prefer Leftovers and the ability to use Leech Seed.
As a sidenote: Here's an updated version of my team, running Toedsdos among other newcomers. I already won a decently sized OM room tour with this, so it can't be that bad, right?
https://pokepast.es/ed56f34b8d07a974
As a sidenote's sidenote: Bisharp-Tinkaton, with 252 speed EVs and Adamant nature, outspeeds Specs Miraidon (and other base 135s with positive nature) at -1 speed by 1 point. It also has a funny tech option in Ice Hammer to bonk said Miraidons, and also Hippodoses with.
Cross Evolution has been chosen as April's Leader's Choice of the Month! Enjoy the ladder!
we gaming now boyssss its ce ladder time
---
Recently discovered this monstrous set with Slowpoke of all Pokémon, evolving into the spectacular Gyarados.
It's no understatement when I say that this thing is a BEAST (And no, I'm not joking like I was with Clodsly this time, haha). It's absolutely scary, with a spread of 165/180/89/85/120/16. This thing eats hits much like it can serve them. HP is the name of the game lately, as a lot of the best evolutions have absurd HP and defenses. Slowados is no exception; with the exception being its mediocre-to-low Defense stat of 89. However, Slowados is graced with Curse, the move that lowers speed (like that matters on a Pokémon known for its slowness), and boosts the ever so important Defense stat, and the Attack stat as an added plus. Slowados has amazing SpDef graced by Gyarados' evolution, and with the amazing SpAttackers in the metagame, Slowpoke can come in on them and serve up a meaty hit from it's 180 BASE attack stat. Oh yeah; did I mention this thing can hit hard too? Simply click the Liquidation button and watch your opponents be ripped apart. EQ can hit Steel and most importantly Ground types for super effective damage. Slowados also gets Slack Off to keep your monster healthy and happy for a long time. Need I say more?
This thing can do wonders in Trick Room I bet, but I've found that it doesn't even need to be in Trick Room; just let Slowpoke do it's job and it has the potential to clean wipe the things that stand in its way. You'll definitely need a Ground type teammate just in case, but you'll grow to love this child of dumb-minded destruction. It won't even realize the victims of it's strength.
tldr; hurr de durr slowpoke strong!!!!!1!
Gyarados (Slowpoke) (M) @ Clear Amulet/Leftovers/Covert Cloak
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Poison/Ground/Water
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Slack Off
- Curse
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
---
Recently discovered this monstrous set with Slowpoke of all Pokémon, evolving into the spectacular Gyarados.
It's no understatement when I say that this thing is a BEAST (And no, I'm not joking like I was with Clodsly this time, haha). It's absolutely scary, with a spread of 165/180/89/85/120/16. This thing eats hits much like it can serve them. HP is the name of the game lately, as a lot of the best evolutions have absurd HP and defenses. Slowados is no exception; with the exception being its mediocre-to-low Defense stat of 89. However, Slowados is graced with Curse, the move that lowers speed (like that matters on a Pokémon known for its slowness), and boosts the ever so important Defense stat, and the Attack stat as an added plus. Slowados has amazing SpDef graced by Gyarados' evolution, and with the amazing SpAttackers in the metagame, Slowpoke can come in on them and serve up a meaty hit from it's 180 BASE attack stat. Oh yeah; did I mention this thing can hit hard too? Simply click the Liquidation button and watch your opponents be ripped apart. EQ can hit Steel and most importantly Ground types for super effective damage. Slowados also gets Slack Off to keep your monster healthy and happy for a long time. Need I say more?
This thing can do wonders in Trick Room I bet, but I've found that it doesn't even need to be in Trick Room; just let Slowpoke do it's job and it has the potential to clean wipe the things that stand in its way. You'll definitely need a Ground type teammate just in case, but you'll grow to love this child of dumb-minded destruction. It won't even realize the victims of it's strength.
tldr; hurr de durr slowpoke strong!!!!!1!
Gyarados (Slowpoke) (M) @ Clear Amulet/Leftovers/Covert Cloak
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Poison/Ground/Water
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Slack Off
- Curse
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
Last edited:
For the Curse Slowados set, I would also keep Covert Cloak in mind for item options. Salt Cure would be pretty annoying for it, if Naclstack bases and/or Garganacl evos become popular. And not having to worry about stuff like random flinches or Hurricane Confusions is a nice bonus.
Oh, and this sounds super funny for Trick Room. Not only can it set TR on its own and has a great speed to use it, it can also attempt to Moxie-sweep under it.
Something like this, probably:
Gyarados (Slowpoke) @ Clear Amulet/Life Orb/Expert Belt
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Water/Ground/Fighting/Flying/Electric
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge/Ice Fang/Crunch/Tera Blast
- Trick Room
252+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Fighting Slowpoke Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 353-418 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Has anybody mentioned Bisharp might be busted on this OM?
Bisharp with Annihilape as its evo:
Dark/Ghost
110/135/120/50/90/65
It has access to bulk up rage fist with a good typing, as well as sucker punch, literally better stats than Kingambit
Bisharp with Tinkaton as its evo:
Dark/Steel
85/145/122/85/93/86
It gets back knock off as well as having gigaton hammer, it can even swords dance and not worry about unaware pokemon because of mold breaker
Bisharp with Dragonite as its evo:
Darl/Flying
95/175/130/90/100/80
Not only does it have access to dragon dance + multiscale, it has swords dance + extreme speed to become e killer Bisharp
I feel like Bisharp will get banned pretty soon
Bisharp with Annihilape as its evo:
Dark/Ghost
110/135/120/50/90/65
It has access to bulk up rage fist with a good typing, as well as sucker punch, literally better stats than Kingambit
Bisharp with Tinkaton as its evo:
Dark/Steel
85/145/122/85/93/86
It gets back knock off as well as having gigaton hammer, it can even swords dance and not worry about unaware pokemon because of mold breaker
Bisharp with Dragonite as its evo:
Darl/Flying
95/175/130/90/100/80
Not only does it have access to dragon dance + multiscale, it has swords dance + extreme speed to become e killer Bisharp
I feel like Bisharp will get banned pretty soon
Yeah, Bisharp is pretty good in this meta, but not busted or anything. Its main set is Tinkaton, which is very good and probably doesn't have many other good bases. The only other commonly ran set I can currently think of is Baxcalibur, and even then you miss out on one of, if not the best, wallbreakers in this meta. It also even has Ice Hammer for a couple Gyarados crevos such as Hippowdon-Gyarados and Toedscool-Gyarados.
To be honest, Annihilape isn't that great of an evolution on most things, because it doesnt give great stats, gives -10 to speed, and gives a weakness to Sucker Punch. Having better stats than Kingambit isn't exactly difficult in this meta either. If you really want a Rage Fist user, just use Primeape.
As for Dragonite, it does look pretty good, but IMO Vigoroth is the better Dragonite base due to STAB Extreme Speed, though Swords Dance is intriguing.
In any case, I'm not trying to say Bisharp-Tinkaton is the only viable set or anything, just that a lot of the other sets aren't unique to it and will probably still exist if it does, hypothetically, get banned. I'd say the things on the watchlist (Miraidon, Lokix, Last Respects, Rage Fist) along with Gyarados are much more likely to get banned.
I'd like to add Tsareena to the mix. Rapid spin for a little speed. Queenly majesty to freely use sucker punch against even faster priority users. It's a fun set.
I would say Tsareena as an crevo is not nearly as overbearing as Bisharp(and Girafarig). Tsareena is fun to use and has several good combos(my favorite being with Shelgon), but again is not as strong as Bisharp. Tsareena can be checked relatively easily compared to Bisharp, who is a nightmare to try and play around.
I disagree with this, the insane output of gigaton hammer with mold breaker gives it huge wallbreaker capabilities and SD makes it an offensive threat too, not to mention tera can check its checks, meaning its, again, extremely hard to play around
Fair, but I've found that it definitely has checks and haven't had too many problems with it, especially considering its Speed. Might be my own personal experience though. It's still definitely one of the best crevos in the tier though.
Hey all, King's Rock is banned, but Stench isn't. Normally this wouldn't be a problem but now any Stage 1 mon gets access to it.
I present to you: cancer! https://pokepast.es/0628d0984110abe1
I plan on making a team with this including a paralysis spreader and webs and running it on ladder on my alt.
pls ban
I present to you: cancer! https://pokepast.es/0628d0984110abe1
I plan on making a team with this including a paralysis spreader and webs and running it on ladder on my alt.
pls ban
I will admit, Tinksharp is dangerously good at what it does (which is, wallbreaking). That is especially true if used alongside pivots so it can get in safely and just click Gigaton to demolish whatever its opponent decides to sacrifice. Or, if it feels safe to do so, SD first and then have both a nuke of The Hammer™ and a nasty priority move at its disposal.
However, especially on fat teams, you should have something that switches into said Gigaton and can take that plus a potential follow-up hit, while being able to deal with Tinksharp in return. My gut feeling says that's still reasonably possible considering its below-average speed and special bulk (that gets further compromised on LO sets), on top of some big weaknesses. I may be wrong here. And yes, Tera exists. I'll get to that in a minute.
In an ideal world you won't even give it room to enter the field safely and force a switch/sacrifice in the first place. But that's not always possible. So:
Apeknight
Typing: Fighting/Steel
Stats: 95/125/110/70/100/85
Corviknight (Primeape) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Flying/Ghost/Water
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- U-Turn/Stealth Rock/Defog/Iron Defense/Rage Fist
- U-Turn/Stealth Rock/Defog/Iron Defense/Rage Fist
- Roost
Here's a (hopefully) foolproof switch-in I cooked up because I just could not sleep while my brain was jacked up on Crossevo building, lmao.pls don't judge. I swear I'm gonna get my sleeping habits fixed
It's minimally slower than Tinksharp (the 12 Speed EVs are to outspeed 0 Speed variants), resists both STABs, and is not weak to any common coverage. Also threatens to OHKO with STAB Body Press. Outside of that it can still do Corviknight Stuff, with the addition of Stealth Rocks (why does Primeape get Rocks? Ask Game Freak) and Rage Fist, if you're feeling extra cheeky.
And yes, they can just switch out after bonking you with The Hammer™. But you still drained 2 of its 8 PP. Roosting after being hit by The Hammer™ is advised.
Bulky Waters should also work, but need a plan to get rid of Tinksharp before it becomes unstoppable.
Of course, all of this goes down the drain if Tinksharp goes Tera Fairy, eats the Fighting move and Gigatons your supposed counter into critical health.
But at that point, is Tinksharp the problem or is it Terastallization instead? What about it on other threats to beat revengekilling attempts? Like Tera Fairy Stantler-Ceruledge to suddenly resist Sucker Punch? Or Tera Ghost Murkrow-Gyarados (which looks terrifying btw, at least on paper) to beat any Breloom Evo's Mach Punch?
Regardless of what happens to Bisharp bases, Tera should be looked at imo, with all the various powerhouses that try to get the jump on each other.
(Edit regarding Tera on offensive threats: That also may just be bias from me having played a lot of HO on ladder recently)
-----
With that out of the way, has anyone considered the applications of Zoroark evos? You can use something with Illusion and your opponent won't even notice during team preview. What, should they expect a Poison-type lead to actually be a Murkrow-Zoroark (that's immune to both of Poison's weaknesses)?
However, especially on fat teams, you should have something that switches into said Gigaton and can take that plus a potential follow-up hit, while being able to deal with Tinksharp in return. My gut feeling says that's still reasonably possible considering its below-average speed and special bulk (that gets further compromised on LO sets), on top of some big weaknesses. I may be wrong here. And yes, Tera exists. I'll get to that in a minute.
In an ideal world you won't even give it room to enter the field safely and force a switch/sacrifice in the first place. But that's not always possible. So:
Apeknight
Typing: Fighting/Steel
Stats: 95/125/110/70/100/85
Corviknight (Primeape) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Flying/Ghost/Water
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- U-Turn/Stealth Rock/Defog/Iron Defense/Rage Fist
- U-Turn/Stealth Rock/Defog/Iron Defense/Rage Fist
- Roost
Here's a (hopefully) foolproof switch-in I cooked up because I just could not sleep while my brain was jacked up on Crossevo building, lmao.
It's minimally slower than Tinksharp (the 12 Speed EVs are to outspeed 0 Speed variants), resists both STABs, and is not weak to any common coverage. Also threatens to OHKO with STAB Body Press. Outside of that it can still do Corviknight Stuff, with the addition of Stealth Rocks (why does Primeape get Rocks? Ask Game Freak) and Rage Fist, if you're feeling extra cheeky.
- +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Bisharp Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Primeape: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- This is the worst case scenario (assuming Tinksharp outspeeds), but if they stay in for this, they get Body Pressed
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Bisharp Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Primeape: 136-162 (34.5 - 41.1%) -- 69% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Bisharp Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Primeape: 104-123 (26.3 - 31.2%) -- 19.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
- And this is what happens if you eat the Hammer on the switch and they keep attacking.
- 240+ Def Primeape Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 432-508 (115.5 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- And this is what Apeknight does back to Tinksharp.
Bulky Waters should also work, but need a plan to get rid of Tinksharp before it becomes unstoppable.
Of course, all of this goes down the drain if Tinksharp goes Tera Fairy, eats the Fighting move and Gigatons your supposed counter into critical health.
But at that point, is Tinksharp the problem or is it Terastallization instead? What about it on other threats to beat revengekilling attempts? Like Tera Fairy Stantler-Ceruledge to suddenly resist Sucker Punch? Or Tera Ghost Murkrow-Gyarados (which looks terrifying btw, at least on paper) to beat any Breloom Evo's Mach Punch?
Regardless of what happens to Bisharp bases, Tera should be looked at imo, with all the various powerhouses that try to get the jump on each other.
(Edit regarding Tera on offensive threats: That also may just be bias from me having played a lot of HO on ladder recently)
-----
With that out of the way, has anyone considered the applications of Zoroark evos? You can use something with Illusion and your opponent won't even notice during team preview. What, should they expect a Poison-type lead to actually be a Murkrow-Zoroark (that's immune to both of Poison's weaknesses)?
Last edited:
Sorry if I didn't make it clear, Bisharp -> Tsareena was what I was referring to. Just throwing one more set into the mix and highlighting its unique properties. Base 205 attack, rapid spin, and cannot use priority against it. Bisharp is pretty amazing and has lots of viable stuff that all require thought to fight against.
Sylveon (Bergmite) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Tera Blast
- Quick Attack
Here's a funny set I've been running. It's not very good, but the spin being unstoppable makes it a fun way to beat sticky web/hazard stack teams. No need to actually care about what you use, because Spin is the only important part.
Anyways, here's what's actually broken...
Frosmoth (Girafarig) @ Leftovers
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Substitute
- Quiver Dance
- Tera Blast
I've said this before, but this mon is wack, although I'm not sure whether Girafarig or Ice Scales is the problem. You pretty much can't use any special attackers aside from this one, because it sets up on every special attacker effortlessly. This is the set I'm running, which crushes most Unaware specially defensive mons while subbing to avoid Sucker Punch/status, but this is not the only one Girafarig/Frosmoth can run. HP boosts your bulk, and it allowed me to sub and reliably boost on Seismic Toss Chansey in one game, while max Speed helps you in mirror matchups. Fighting Tera Blast is primarily to kill Tinksharp before it becomes a problem, although I'd assume you can run Tera Fairy/Dazzling Gleam or even Tera Electric/Thunderbolt. This is the one time Normal/Psychic is good, because it's immune to Shadow Ball and Stored Power blows past non-immunities easily.
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Tera Blast
- Quick Attack
Here's a funny set I've been running. It's not very good, but the spin being unstoppable makes it a fun way to beat sticky web/hazard stack teams. No need to actually care about what you use, because Spin is the only important part.
Anyways, here's what's actually broken...
Frosmoth (Girafarig) @ Leftovers
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Substitute
- Quiver Dance
- Tera Blast
I've said this before, but this mon is wack, although I'm not sure whether Girafarig or Ice Scales is the problem. You pretty much can't use any special attackers aside from this one, because it sets up on every special attacker effortlessly. This is the set I'm running, which crushes most Unaware specially defensive mons while subbing to avoid Sucker Punch/status, but this is not the only one Girafarig/Frosmoth can run. HP boosts your bulk, and it allowed me to sub and reliably boost on Seismic Toss Chansey in one game, while max Speed helps you in mirror matchups. Fighting Tera Blast is primarily to kill Tinksharp before it becomes a problem, although I'd assume you can run Tera Fairy/Dazzling Gleam or even Tera Electric/Thunderbolt. This is the one time Normal/Psychic is good, because it's immune to Shadow Ball and Stored Power blows past non-immunities easily.
Last edited:
We would love feedback from players about which one is the problem as we are also not exactly sure where the problem lies.
Anyway here is the closest CE game you will ever see.No it can't get any closer then this.(the difference is 0.5hp)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9crossevolution-1835386385
Could you consider tera as possibly the problem? Lack of fighting tera blast makes frosfarig (and many other things) much easier to wall.
I can see why tera is a problem, but I use a set that uses Ice Beam, Dazzling Gleam, QD, and Stored Power and it tears though everything after getting set up. I will bring tera to the councils attention but something needs to happen with this giraffe.
ex. provided by Gimlaf
Like, look at this: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Zorua-Hisui Boomburst vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Ice Scales Girafarig: 146-172 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Yeah, the fact that the giraffe has the opportunity to set up against one of the most brutal special attacks is just crazy. And Scarf just tickles, especially after one QD where the giraffe outspeeds again.
"But Gimlaf, you just won a tour where this exact matchup happened!"
Yes, because I went for Trick just to prevent it from snowballing (admittedly, Trick Scarf would've been a lot safer in this situation than Trick Specs). If my opponent had expected this, they could've gone for Substitute and I would've lost at that moment. And at best, that forces a 50/50: Either I catch them on the sub with a Boomburst (which doesn't even KO against +0 and through a sub), or I catch them on the QD with a Trick. But if I do the wrong move, that's curtains.
So yeah, something has to be done. I'm not sure if banning the evo outright or just banning Ice Scales is preferrable. But banning the Giraffe would likely lead to people to just flock to the next best base for Ice Scales Quiver Dance. Misdreavus-Frosmoth already sees use. And what would stop people from running Stantler-Frosmoth, or even the even bulkier Dunsparce-Frosmoth? Hell, Mudbray-Frosmoth has a similar defensive profile to Girafarig and does get Earth Power, but no Stored Power.
Also, while STAB on Stored Power is appreciated, it doesn't seem necessary when max boosted Mothsparce (145 base SpA) can still 2HKO Clodsparce.
(Edit: Yes, that requires to set up all the way there. and running Roost for the recovery kind of messes with the moves you want to already run. So I don't know really about the feasibility of this)
+6 0 SpA Dunsparce Stored Power (380 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Dunsparce: 281-331 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
"But Gimlaf, you just won a tour where this exact matchup happened!"
Yes, because I went for Trick just to prevent it from snowballing (admittedly, Trick Scarf would've been a lot safer in this situation than Trick Specs). If my opponent had expected this, they could've gone for Substitute and I would've lost at that moment. And at best, that forces a 50/50: Either I catch them on the sub with a Boomburst (which doesn't even KO against +0 and through a sub), or I catch them on the QD with a Trick. But if I do the wrong move, that's curtains.
So yeah, something has to be done. I'm not sure if banning the evo outright or just banning Ice Scales is preferrable. But banning the Giraffe would likely lead to people to just flock to the next best base for Ice Scales Quiver Dance. Misdreavus-Frosmoth already sees use. And what would stop people from running Stantler-Frosmoth, or even the even bulkier Dunsparce-Frosmoth? Hell, Mudbray-Frosmoth has a similar defensive profile to Girafarig and does get Earth Power, but no Stored Power.
Also, while STAB on Stored Power is appreciated, it doesn't seem necessary when max boosted Mothsparce (145 base SpA) can still 2HKO Clodsparce.
(Edit: Yes, that requires to set up all the way there. and running Roost for the recovery kind of messes with the moves you want to already run. So I don't know really about the feasibility of this)
+6 0 SpA Dunsparce Stored Power (380 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Dunsparce: 281-331 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Alright, I tried the Stench Population bomb thing and fortunately it sort of sucked NGL. This thing has the same Atk as Maushold and no good way to boost it, and with power creep it's only able to 3HKO Pokémon and dies to pretty much anything. It's also unable to run a Focus Sash due to needing Wide Lens. I'd say my team in general wasn't the best, but this set definitely wasn't good either. Regardless, I still feel like it should be banned because even if it's not the best it still doesn't feel very healthy for the meta.
The team in case you're curious: https://pokepast.es/925afa4485726857
The team in case you're curious: https://pokepast.es/925afa4485726857