Darkrai: Just hear me out.

[scorchedsky]

Danyul and Sanjay helped elucidate my point. If Darkrai was a 3rd-evo 600 BST he would've been allowed into OU. Probably without too much fanfare, even. Stop trying to pretend like there's no distinction between legendaries and not on Smogon. I'd really like there to be, but there isn't. The Lati twins are an excellent example, and without Soul Dew I'd wager that neither would be top-5 OU if allowed.

Like Danyul said, if Garchomp was a one-of and Darkrai third in a chain, you can bet that Garchomp would be banned and Darkrai would be allowed.

Oh no, insane stats, ability, movepool, typing? How exactly is it "insane?" Manaphy doesn't have an "insane" movepool in my opinion. It fits it very well and is pretty good, but it's not "insane." Darkrai's stats are arguably worse than some 600's allowed into OU, how can they be insane? I'd rather him have Levitate than Bad Dreams, personally. When you say "what other criteria do you need besides insane movepool etc.," I'll just tell you that "insane attributes" are not criteria at all. Blissey's movepool, stats, ability, and typing could be considered "insane" by some, couldn't they?

 

[Tyranids]

Ultimate Darkrai counter:

Primape @ Choice Scarf
Vital Spirit
Adamant (or does it NEED Jolly?)
-Close Combat

Umm.. over centralizing much?

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

theorymon counter:

darkrai @ chople berry/focus sash
psychic

 

[Vampy34]

I swear to god if discussion of stupid things like Darkrai in OU doesn't stop, I'm going to hunt down and kill every member of Smogon.

I'm being serious here. Nothing good can come of this topic.

 

[Shiven]

Play any intelligent person who is using a Darkrai against your Ubers or OU team and you would understand (although I doubt it).

You alreadly listed a definition, which is what he asked. This sentence was uncalled for, though. All he's doing is trying to contribute, if all but slightly.

 

[Calciphoce]

The real question here isn't whether or not Darkrai would be overcentralizing etc but rather are we willing to test it at the current time or not. I wouldn't say so with Wobba still being limbo and too many things being tested at once wouldn't be the same. I am aware that a lot of people/places/tournaments ban pokemon in the limbo tier to ubers, but at the same time if we had wobba facing off against darkrai and either one became uber from that, it wouldn't be the same because of the two being variables in the system currently.

 

[cim]

I swear to god if discussion of stupid things like Darkrai in OU doesn't stop, I'm going to hunt down and kill every member of Smogon.

I'm being serious here. Nothing good can come of this topic.

This is all that needs to be said. Stupid claims like "if he weren't legendary he'd be ou" and "the lati twins wouldn't be top 5 ou" aren't gonig to convince anyone. Arguments. Aren't. Going. To. Convince. Anyone. Of. Anything.

 

[scorchedsky]

If a correct argument can't convince people of anything, what can? Can nothing convince anyone? If that's the case, why are we even having discussions about anything? I would like this thread to end with a test of Darkrai, ideally, is that not anything good that can come from this topic?

 

[tgva8889]

Just posting that Darkrai has practically the same defenses as Crobat. Actually, Darkrai's base stats are basically that of a slightly slower Crobat with 135 SpA stat.

Crobat also has a rather limited movepool to go along with said stats. Whereas Darkrai has a movepool that looks like Mewtwo's. Considering his stats, that makes him quite a bit better than Crobat, even if they are doing almost the same thing (that is, dropping Sleep on people or attempting to sweep specially).

Also, Crobat isn't terrible.

 

[Mekkah]

I can get what he's saying. If Darkrai was the third evo in a chain, a normal Pokemon, we probably would have tested it first. We're not used to looking at a non-legend and sending it straight to Ubers. And I know you say Smogon makes no distinction, but believe me, it subconciously does. Can you point me to a single post where someone has argued that one of the Latis deserves banning but not the other? They're different Pokemon, and yet because we see them as a pair we think we can't split them. The same sort of thing happens when something gets legendary status. Do you remember how everyone was freaking about about Garchomp breaking OU? If he was legendary, he just might have been autobanned. He would have at least been tested.

While I agree with your general point, the Lati@s comparison doesn't make sense. The two are not only twins in looks or availability in the games, they are also the same Pokemon except for a few very subtle differences. To ban one to uber while the other gets allowed in OU would be like saying "alright, one of them is above the line, and the other one is under it".

 

[Dragontamer]

Danyul and Sanjay helped elucidate my point. If Darkrai was a 3rd-evo 600 BST he would've been allowed into OU. Probably without too much fanfare, even. Stop trying to pretend like there's no distinction between legendaries and not on Smogon. I'd really like there to be, but there isn't. The Lati twins are an excellent example, and without Soul Dew I'd wager that neither would be top-5 OU if allowed.

First off: The Lati twins are next on the testing board. I don't think people even debate whether or not they should be tested... only when and how. (like what kind of statistics and all that). Also, a decision still needs to be made on Wobbuffet before we start testing other Pokemon.

Second: onto the larger issue of your post. So whats so bad if Smogon treats non-legendaries differently? At the end of the day, the cutoff point between Ubers / Non-Ubers will be arbitrary, and legendaries / non-legendaries is the closest thing to the roots of Pokemon that defines this arbitrary cutoff point.

Like Danyul said, if Garchomp was a one-of and Darkrai third in a chain, you can bet that Garchomp would be banned and Darkrai would be allowed.

And if Mewtwo and Mew weren't banned in RBY, maybe we wouldn't even have Ubers? Lets stick to reality please. The discussion is bad enough as it is.

The primary issue with Garchomp is that unlike Ubers -> OU, we do not have a criteria for banning a Pokemon from OU. It is clear in almost everyone's minds here what constitutes an Uber pokemon. However, the converse is not defined. The separation upwards has never been defined, and there is no global consensus. Until such a consensus is found, Garchomp will remain OU.

While I cannot speak for Smogon... I can say that I simply want to play with all non-legendary Pokemon. That is one criteria I like in a metagame. Why? Because non-legendaries are the most accessible kind of Pokemon. You can almost always multiply your stock of non-legendaries without resetting the game. Oh yeah... the game... some people still play by the cartridge remember? :-p

Oh no, insane stats, ability, movepool, typing? How exactly is it "insane?" Manaphy doesn't have an "insane" movepool in my opinion. It fits it very well and is pretty good, but it's not "insane."

Manaphy was the first Uber tested in D/P OU. Opinion doesn't matter on the issue of Manaphy anymore, unless you want to call for a retest.

If a correct argument can't convince people of anything, what can? Can nothing convince anyone? If that's the case, why are we even having discussions about anything? I would like this thread to end with a test of Darkrai, ideally, is that not anything good that can come from this topic?

Assuming we have infinite resources, sure, thats a noble cause.

On the other hand, there is a backlog of metagame tests to be done (Lati twins at least), and another decision needed. Testing won't begin by argument: it will begin if someone began to test it. Now that finals are over... I can finally get around to drafting up plans for the testing of Double Team Clause (something I'm particularly interested in testing).

There is a lot to be done... there is no good testing framework and every change to the metagame will be strongly resisted. And with the lack of a consensus on a standard testing framework... we aren't even able to agree on the results of a test. Both the Deoxys-S and Wobbuffet tests were contested by a good chunk of people for example. And while I agree with the results of the tests... I didn't like how they were conducted.

But testing frameworks and all that make for a boring conversation. I'll just have to draft it myself and see if people agree with the results later >_>

 

[demozi]

lol at this thread because darkrai is a top uber so how is going to not destroy ou.

 

[gengod]

lol at this thread because darkrai is a top uber so how is going to not destroy ou.

Lati@s is also a top tier Uber and it doesn't "Destroy OU", put some damn effort into it if your going to post, one sentence posts simply saying "think pokemon X is uber because you think it is isn't going to prove anything to anyone.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

lol at this thread because darkrai is a top uber so how is going to not destroy ou.

Darkrai may have an attack with 10% more accuracy and has a good movepool, but that doesn't mean it doesn't fit into the current OU metagame. Its stats, as said before, aren't a lot higher than the stats Crobat has. It can use Calm Mind, but a huge amount of Pokemon can take Dark Pulse. Dark isn't the best offensive typing, but is usually talked about because of Pursuit. Other than the Physical side of that typing, it doesn't pose much of a threat.

Darkrai has access to moves like Focus Punch and event moves, but because of this it can't have the defences it needs to survive in the OU metagame. Scarfed Pokemon like Garchomp or Heracross can easily switch in on most of Darkrai's attacks (especially Heracross with Sleep Talk) and instantly pose a threat to it. Darkrai may have potential, but doesn't have the typing and moves for it.

The ability to sleep Pokemon with a 80 accuracy move is overrated. After sleeping one Pokemon, the second can easily switch in on your Darkrai, and because Darkrai or doesn't have the right moves to damage the opponent, or is walled by special walls like blissey or just doesn't have the defences because of the nature, it's not much of a deal. After discovering its moveset, wich won't take long, it's not hard to counter.

It can be hard to get used to Pokemon that weren't used in the metagame before, but look at Deoxys; it's almost borderline whilst seen as uber before. The point is, there's absolutely no reason why Darkrai wouldn't fit into the OU metagame. But this can only be confirmed by testing, so I'm absolutely for testing.

 

[sanjay120]

While I agree with your general point, the Lati@s comparison doesn't make sense. The two are not only twins in looks or availability in the games, they are also the same Pokemon except for a few very subtle differences. To ban one to uber while the other gets allowed in OU would be like saying "alright, one of them is above the line, and the other one is under it".

It's certainly possible. Extremely unlikely, but my point is no one treats them like two seperate Pokemon, even though they are. It might not make much difference but that doesn't excuse it. Maybe I'm being too scientific but then again nothing bad ever came of that.

And I don't see what's wrong with testing Darkrai while testing Wobby and Deoxys-S and the Latis and other Ubers. Maybe there is a currently Uber Pokemon that doesn't overcentralize OU and counters Darkrai, but if you don't test them at the same time you'll think Darkrai has one less counter. What I'd really like to do is stick every Pokemon on a ladder and ban them a few at a time as we get statistics back.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Play any intelligent person who has the consciousness and knowledge to gameplan against offensive threats and watch how the Darkrai user appears after the game over. They may not seem so high and mighty to you after that. Plus, that statement you said about Darkrai can be said about any other Pokemon for that matter. If you encounter any intelligent Pokemon player who has played with say, an Absol, of couse he/she may have a good experience with it. So that statement your said was pretty convient for your objection on Darkrai.

Way to completely miss the point. Sure, you CAN prepare for Darkrai, but Darkrai is almost unique in the fact that it can easily beat all of its "counters" without the need of a gimmick set. Unless you make your team Darkrai-proof, anybody would have a really tough time beating it.

My point was that even though you will know exactly what's coming every time, (DarK Void/Dark Pulse/then either subpunch or cm/sub/other attack) good luck actually taking it down before it takes most of your team out. For a pokemon as blatantly strong as Darkrai, that is not a lot of variation on its most dominating movesets. A pokemon as powerful as Darkrai that doesn't suffer from 4-moveslot syndrome is certainly a threat to be reckoned with. Garchomp is similar. You know you are always getting EQ/Dragon Move/SD/Sub or Fire Move, yet it continues to be the most powerful pokemon in OU.

Your Absol comparison fails because Absol, unlike Darkrai, can not beat its counters. How does Absol beat Skarmory? What about Forretress? If you use a gimmick HP Fire set, you could beat them. But that would come at the cost of losing coverage to everything else that Absol could beat. Darkrai does not have this problem, as its main movesets can easily handle essentially every threat.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

Second: onto the larger issue of your post. So whats so bad if Smogon treats non-legendaries differently? At the end of the day, the cutoff point between Ubers / Non-Ubers will be arbitrary, and legendaries / non-legendaries is the closest thing to the roots of Pokemon that defines this arbitrary cutoff point.

...

While I cannot speak for Smogon... I can say that I simply want to play with all non-legendary Pokemon. That is one criteria I like in a metagame. Why? Because non-legendaries are the most accessible kind of Pokemon. You can almost always multiply your stock of non-legendaries without resetting the game. Oh yeah... the game... some people still play by the cartridge remember? :-p

I agree with this sentiment with a few exceptions. There always will be an arbitrary cutoff point, that much is clear. The problem with using Legendary vs. non-Legendary as the only cutoff point is the group of five Pokémon that GameFreak, in their infinite wisdom, decided to create. The five breedable legendaries are Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, and Garchomp. If it weren't for these five Pokémon, a nice, clean line between OU and Uber might well have been drawn between Legendaries and non-Legendaries sometime during the 2nd or 3rd generation of Pokémon.

As it is, we get people constantly saying, "It's stupid to play without Legendaries. Look at Garchomp and Salamence. They're more powerful than most legendaries."

Of course, I'd rather just ban all Legendaries and these five Pokémon. In all my experience with different metagames in the third and fourth Pokémon generations, that's the ban list that tends to create the most balanced game. If Smogon were to attempt to create a 'tier' that maximized the number of viable Pokémon, that would probably be the best starting point. It's not a popular idea, though. By and large, people love their Legends and generally like to stick with tradition, which is their right.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

Way to completely miss the point. Sure, you CAN prepare for Darkrai, but Darkrai is almost unique in the fact that it can easily beat all of its "counters" without the need of a gimmick set. Unless you make your team Darkrai-proof, anybody would have a really tough time beating it.

My point was that even though you will know exactly what's coming every time, (DarK Void/Dark Pulse/then either subpunch or cm/sub/other attack) good luck actually taking it down before it takes most of your team out. For a pokemon as blatantly strong as Darkrai, that is not a lot of variation on its most dominating movesets. A pokemon as powerful as Darkrai that doesn't suffer from 4-moveslot syndrome is certainly a threat to be reckoned with. Garchomp is similar. You know you are always getting EQ/Dragon Move/SD/Sub or Fire Move, yet it continues to be the most powerful pokemon in OU.

Your Absol comparison fails because Absol, unlike Darkrai, can not beat its counters. How does Absol beat Skarmory? What about Forretress? If you use a gimmick HP Fire set, you could beat them. But that would come at the cost of losing coverage to everything else that Absol could beat. Darkrai does not have this problem, as its main movesets can easily handle essentially every threat.

Every Pokemon is unique. Every Pokemon has a possible set that can break the counter. There's absolutely no need for a Darkrai proof team. A team is usually balanced and can deal with multiple threats. Otherwise Garchomp would destroy every single team because of its unpredictability.

Yes, Darkrai can be unpredictable. But does this mean it's powerful enough to take down teams? Unpredictability doesn't mean you'll kill on single Pokemon on the opposing team. Just like Garchomp, Darkrai has a decent secondairy offensive stat, but is this usable? Let's say you hit Blissey with a Focus Punch and have damage it, then what? The opponent will know the set and its possibilities. The opponent will exploit this knowledge and try to counter your Darkrai immediately, just like Garchomp.

There is one difference though, Garchomp has a great Physical Attack stat, a great HP stat and Swords Dance. Darkrai may be faster, but it can't set-up in similar situations because it doesn't have a + 2 stat boosting attack. This means Darkrai can't pose as much of a threat in the same period with lower defences and hit points.

Darkrai cannot cover every single threat. This requires more moveslots. Darkrai also has another problem: it doesn't have enough power. With a Life Orb, it can easily get revenge killed and without it doesn't pose enough of a threat. This doesn't mean Darkrai isn't potentially a good Pokemon, but it means Darkrai could easily fit into the OU metagame.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Every Pokemon is unique. Every Pokemon has a possible set that can break the counter. There's absolutely no need for a Darkrai proof team. A team is usually balanced and can deal with multiple threats. Otherwise Garchomp would destroy every single team because of its unpredictability.

Yes, Darkrai can be unpredictable. But does this mean it's powerful enough to take down teams? Unpredictability doesn't mean you'll kill on single Pokemon on the opposing team. Just like Garchomp, Darkrai has a decent secondairy offensive stat, but is this usable? Let's say you hit Blissey with a Focus Punch and have damage it, then what? The opponent will know the set and its possibilities. The opponent will exploit this knowledge and try to counter your Darkrai immediately, just like Garchomp.

There is one difference though, Garchomp has a great Physical Attack stat, a great HP stat and Swords Dance. Darkrai may be faster, but it can't set-up in similar situations because it doesn't have a + 2 stat boosting attack. This means Darkrai can't pose as much of a threat in the same period with lower defences and hit points.

Darkrai cannot cover every single threat. This requires more moveslots. Darkrai also has another problem: it doesn't have enough power. With a Life Orb, it can easily get revenge killed and without it doesn't pose enough of a threat. This doesn't mean Darkrai isn't potentially a good Pokemon, but it means Darkrai could easily fit into the OU metagame.

Sure, pretty much everything has something to break the counter. Heracross can run SD+Facade @ Burn Orb or HP Ice to beat Gliscor. But this is what makes Darkrai special: it doesn't have to run a special set to beat its counters.

Darkrai is extremely predictable, yet still dominant. Just like Garchomp. The point I'm getting across is that even when you know its moveset you still won't have an easy time beating it. I'm not sure where you got the impression that I said something different, or that what I said does not hold true.

There are multiple differences between Garchomp and Darkrai and I never said they were the same. I was comparing that one very similar aspect of them.

Obviously, Darkrai can not beat everything single-handedly. But it can do enough to a lot without breaking a sweat to have its impact known. It will leave its mark on every OU battle its in.

You took everything in my post, got my points completely backwards and everything else you said was common sense. I'm not sure if you were even disagreeing with me >_>

Knowing what is coming doesn't always put you at an advatage. Hell with Infernape, i always know Grass Knot, Close Combat, Fire Move. Hidden Power Ice, and all of the solid teams i'm sure have a hard time stopping it. Most of the time it will knock out one Pokemon.

Thank you for saying the same exact thing that I have been saying throughout the entire thread.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

This is all that needs to be said. Stupid claims like "if he weren't legendary he'd be ou" and "the lati twins wouldn't be top 5 ou" aren't gonig to convince anyone. Arguments. Aren't. Going. To. Convince. Anyone. Of. Anything.

But I'm clearly bored with the current metagame, or terrible at it, so I want to just fuck with it! Lets just start randomly unbanning shit I hardly ever see used (because its an Uber) and start banning all the shit that kicks my ass in OU (like Garchomp). Then we can throw down a healthy removal of Evasion Clause, Sleep Clause, Whatever the fuck else is left to dick with clause.

Isn't that how competitive gaming works?

 

[Bologo]

Arguments. Aren't. Going. To. Convince. Anyone. Of. Anything.

You do realize that what you just said basically defeats the entire purpose of Stark Mountain, right? Arguments are the only way that people can actually come to a compromise. It's been that way when scientists have created their laws and theories, mathmetician's making formula's and algorithms, etc. These are how these things got the kinks worked out of them, because others argued about how they worked, to perfect them and such.

That's what we're doing here. We're arguing the tier placement of a certain pokemon to see if that would polish the dings in the current metagame, or if it would ding the shit out of it.

In short, arguments are the ONLY way to convince anyone of anything.

 

[slayer124]

If you can't understand why Darkrai should be in Uber, you have to test him in Uber Metagame. Even in Uber Metagame nothing can't really counter him safely. If Darkrai is mixed, RestTalk Kyogre isn't safe switch-in because some mixed darkrai carry thunder for Kyogre and Ho-oh and Blissey is pretty straight forward because it need other sleeping poke to counter him. Calm Mind+Substitute+Dark Void+Dark Pulse can wreck the uber team pretty nicely if you play correctly. Darkrai is so fragile in Uber enviroment but with CM support he isn't so bad at special defense. Focus Punch from Darkrai deal 90-100% to Blissey which mean if you have stealth rock your blissey would be ohkoed. Thunder from Darkrai deal more than 50% damage to Kyogre so RestTalk Kyogre isn't safe switch-in. Moreover, if someone really want to counter him you need to use two pokemon: one can absorb sleep and one can fear it away. In addition, Darkrai isn't worse mewtwo. He may look worse Mewtwo due to his stat but he surely have breloom's annoyingness, gengar's unpredictability, and good special attack and speed stat. In uber enviroment there is not much pokemon that can outspeed him. Only uber can outspeed him without help of item is Mewtwo. Moreover, Darkrai is really Gengar with steroid. Yes, it doesn't have Destiny Bond and useful resistance like Gengar do but he surely have better attack move, attack, special attack , and speed stat and doesn't weak to pursuit like gengar does. Why we need to test Darkrai who are actually one of good uber in uber metagame?? I think if it is that case why not test mew too??
Mew doesn't have that much awesome movepool unlike everyone think of, crappy resistance, and no STAB move in Uber Metagame. 2 stat upping move+Baton Pass is absolute terror if someone use mew correctly but mew can be outspeeded or tied with most uber in uber enviroment.

 

[lilyhollow]

If you can't understand why Darkrai should be in Uber, you have to test him in Uber Metagame.

This isn't about the uber metagame. There are things currently in OU that can function in the Uber metagame, such as Blissey, Metagross, and Jirachi. In other words, if it doesn't imbalance the OU metagame, there is no reason not to allow it in the OU metagame, regardless of how it functions in Ubers.

 

[slayer124]

This isn't about the uber metagame. There are things currently in OU that can function in the Uber metagame, such as Blissey, Metagross, and Jirachi. In other words, if it doesn't imbalance the OU metagame, there is no reason not to allow it in the OU metagame, regardless of how it functions in Ubers.

I completely know what you mean there but i think darkrai shouldn't be test in OU . As you mention above Blissey, Metagross, and jirachi is good non-uber pokemon that works very good in uber metagame (Jirachi destory lugia, lati twin, can hold against Palkia, and provide useful dragon reistance whereas Metagross counter Rayquaza, Deoxys-A, Blissey, and Lati Twin, blissey doens't need be explained) but i think Darkrai's great movepool in both specturm, finely distributed stat, high speed, unpredictabilty, and annoyingness ceritianly make him as uber. Seriously, i can't understand why many people start to discuss about Uber pokemon dropping to OU because they are suck at that enviroment?? Should we make Ho-oh as OU?? Should we make Darkrai as OU?? I think two uber can be tested in OU will be Mew and Manaphy (Mew is very underrated and his ability to baton pass two stat boost like Nasty Plot or Sword Dance or even rock polish is threatening but he doesn't have useful resistance, ability, and STAB to work with) but i don't want to drop them either without testing them. Uber pokemon that are suck at Uber shouldn't be tested in OU because of just one fact that it is suck at Uber and OU pokemon that are seem to too broken like Garchomp shouldn't be tested in Uber because of just one fact that it seems too powerful in OU. We need to have more thought and data to support the argumenet.

 

[Bliksem]

For the Darkrai that don't carry Psychic (I assume Dark Void, Dark Pulse, Substitute, Calm Mind) what's stopping someone from carrying a more defensive minded Heracross? A Heracross with Megahorn, Close Combat, Stone Edge and Sleep Talk, or perhaps a previously status'd Heracross like the one used to beat Gliscor could do a lot to keep Darkrai from getting into position. The user of this Heracross could use it as a backup sweeper for whatever strategy s/he might have.