Metagame Fortemons

[ponchlake]

I know this is an old post in September 2023, but…

How could Dialga-O and Giratina-O are allowed for this metagame while Palkia-O remained banned despite also having to hold their Lustrous Core? Were 120 Speed and 150 Special Attack alone makes it too much for the metagame despite not having reliable set-ups?

There’s no reason we can’t consider potentially unbanning Palkia-O at a later point. Context is important here though, and at the time of that post we were experimenting with Dialga-O and Giratina-O since they’re item locked. 120 Speed and 150 SpA with 1.2x STABs did seem really powerful (on top of good bulk) from our perspective at the time, so we chose to be safe rather than sorry, especially since we didn’t know at the time how good either Dialgia or Giratina would be. We’re going to see how things play out this month, and if we think Palkia-O is palatable in the tier, then we’ll consider unbanning it.

 

[Disappear]

I'm new to this format so it might be a dumb question but if I put freeze-dry in the item slot would any moves become super effective on water types ?

 

[Raoul Sanchez]

I'm new to this format so it might be a dumb question but if I put freeze-dry in the item slot would any moves become super effective on water types ?

Not sure but any move with a chance to freeze is banned from the item slot.

 

[Raoul Sanchez]

There’s no reason we can’t consider potentially unbanning Palkia-O at a later point. Context is important here though, and at the time of that post we were experimenting with Dialga-O and Giratina-O since they’re item locked. 120 Speed and 150 SpA with 1.2x STABs did seem really powerful (on top of good bulk) from our perspective at the time, so we chose to be safe rather than sorry, especially since we didn’t know at the time how good either Dialgia or Giratina would be. We’re going to see how things play out this month, and if we think Palkia-O is palatable in the tier, then we’ll consider unbanning it.

I say leave it banned, that mon is like a stronger faster ogerpon. Item locked doesn't mean anything in this OM because people sometimes still run a scarf mon to revenge and stop a sweeper from snowballing. Giratina and Dialga origin kind of made sense because of how slow they are but a initially fast Pokémon like Palkia origin with that insane sp atk stat and already powerful STAB moves boosted by lustrous globe means there aren't much switch ins.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

Can we give Regieleki a chance, it is definitely broken with Tera but Tera is gone now

Do you really want to face that speed demon that gets Charge Beam, Electro Ball, and Rapid Spin as options for its moveslot?
The only viable Ground types are really Iron Treads or Donphan.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

Also, when will one of the elements of the Smeargle holding Rollout as an item using Population Bomb strategy be banned? This strategy is super uncompetitive as it is heavily based on luck and it destroys any non-Ghost Pokemon slower than Smeargle.

 

[ponchlake]

when will one of the elements of the Smeargle holding Rollout as an item using Population Bomb strategy be banned?

Smeargle is banned from Fortemons
​

Yeah.. so this was supposed to be on the Heat Crash/Hard Press ban post since the discussion for that ban-post was multi-hits. Smeargle is banned for Pop Bomb strats, as well as being able to ruin quite literally anything. That does make for some fun ideas, but it also leaves rooms for incredibly stupid strategies the likes of which we've never seen due to movepool restrictions. I think we can fairly safely proactively ban Smeargle so that we can avoid making a bunch of reactive hits to it before we evenually can the mon anyways.

Kris poke

 

[SteamingReaper]

How would sound-based moves work? Would they pass sound-based onto a move?

 

[Samirsin]

How would sound-based moves work? Would they pass sound-based onto a move?

They would, making all moves able to bypass Substitute.

 

[Voyd211]

This is a set I really want to be good, but I don’t think it is ;w;

Cacturne @ Trailblaze
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pin Missile
- Power Trip
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch

 

[ponchlake]

Fake Out is banned from Fortemons​

	KaenSoul	Ponchlake	Dark Koopatrol	Result:
Fake Out	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban

​

We wanted to experiment with a Fake Out unban at first, but as of right now there is just too many things that synergize with Fake Out to keep it legal. It's basically a free turn to fish for a status like Poison on something like Munkedori or a chip to get a boost with something like Rapid Spin for instance. However its strongest interactions was with U-Turn, and the question is probably going to be: Why not just hit U-Turn? Well there's no reason we can't hit both, and between the two we believe Fake Out to the worse of the two. You could make the argument for either or since both have synergies that make both abusable. We will revisit U-Turn at a later date if needed.

Also, kenn and Chromate will be stepping down from council. Thank you both for agreeing to do this with me when I decided to bring it back the this generation, and thank you both for helping make it as popular as it was the first time around. Dark Koopatrol is joining us on the council, so warm welcomes and thanks to them for that. We're looking forward to working with them this month.

 

[Scepticskep]

First day playing this OM, currently have a favorite child on my team:

Snowball (Overqwil) @ Fell Stinger
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Crunch
- Aqua Jet
- Gunk Shot/Poison Jab

The name Snowball isn't an exaggeration, max attack after 2 KOs is wild.

 

[ToiriX]

Kingdra @ weatherball
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hurricane
- Flip Turn
- Tera Blast
- Rain Dance

Surprised I haven't seen this thing talked about at all. Even with damp rock banned, kingdra is an absolute nuke if it can get rain up (which hasn't proved to be that hard a task in most battles)

110 x 2 = 220

(220 x 1.5) x 1.5 = 495 (including calcs for rain + STAB boosts)

Hurricane is roughly (ROUGHLY) a 500 BP move with weather ball in the item slot. Forget neutral matchups, even resists have to run a significant amount of bulk to survive a hit.

Some ridiculous calcs

252+ SpA Kingdra Weather Ball (220 BP Water) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui in Rain: 336-396 (104.6 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Weather Ball (220 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Rain: 200-236 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Weather Ball (220 BP Water) vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 415-490 (63.6 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Weather Ball (220 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Archaludon in Rain: 367-432 (95.5 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

[Talpr0ne]

Kingdra @ weatherball
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hurricane
- Flip Turn
- Tera Blast
- Rain Dance

Surprised I haven't seen this thing talked about at all. Even with damp rock banned, kingdra is an absolute nuke if it can get rain up (which hasn't proved to be that hard a task in most battles)

110 x 2 = 220

(220 x 1.5) x 1.5 = 495 (including calcs for rain + STAB boosts)

Hurricane is roughly (ROUGHLY) a 500 BP move with weather ball in the item slot. Forget neutral matchups, even resists have to run a significant amount of bulk to survive a hit.

Some ridiculous calcs

252+ SpA Kingdra Weather Ball (220 BP Water) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui in Rain: 336-396 (104.6 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Weather Ball (220 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Rain: 200-236 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Weather Ball (220 BP Water) vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 415-490 (63.6 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Weather Ball (220 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Archaludon in Rain: 367-432 (95.5 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Very cool set, but since Tera is banned is there a reason for running Tera Blast over Ice Beam or Scald?

 

[AIPS]

To anyone who thought using Beak Blast, doesn't work

 

[jterkel]

Tentacruel @ Giga Drain
Ability: Liquid Ooze
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 52 HP / 68 SpA / 188 SpD / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Sludge Bomb
- Surf
- Ice Beam

I've been running this guy to great success recently, punishes Primarina, Comfey, Volcarona, and basically every other absorption move set. A great teammate for Meowscarada and Hisuian Samurott.

 

[ponchlake]

Tera Blast is bugged therefore we are restricting it in Fortemons
​

Hello, we're going to be restricting Tera Blast in the item slot as the title says. Tera Blast normally has the interaction of increasing the BP of low BP moves once you Tera. There is currently an unintended effect right now that Tera Blast as a Forte applies that effect to all moves and even without Tera. We hit Tera last week, and this interaction would still persist in spite of that. As a result, we're going to restrict the move.

Additionally, our timeline is that hopefully Tera ban will be implemented by tomorrow in the hot patch. We're going to give the meta a day or two to settle post-Tera ban before we begin to vote on things (we may even vote on things sooner if they're a large enough issue). Following that there will be a few day grace period before we launch a survey to gauge the communities' opinion on what we should do next.

KaenSoul poke

 

[dhelmise]

Tera Blast is bugged therefore we are restricting it in Fortemons
​

Hello, we're going to be restricted Tera Blast in the item slot as the title says. Tera Blast normally has the interaction of increasing the BP of low BP moves once you Tera. There is currently an unintended effect right now that Tera Blast as a Forte applies that effect to all moves and even without Tera. We hit Tera last week, and this interaction would still persist in spite of that. As a result, we're going to restrict the move.

Additionally, our timeline is that hopefully Tera ban will be implemented by tomorrow in the hot patch. We're going to give the meta a day or two to settle post-Tera ban before we begin to vote on things (we may even vote on things sooner if they're a large enough issue). Following that there will be a few day grace period before we launch a survey to gauge the communities' opinion on what we should do next.

KaenSoul poke

open a bug report???

 

[Gambit_Gamin]

I'm going to assume this goes into the list of unsupported moves, but if Blizzard is in the item slot and Snow is active, will moves be 100% accurate or not?

 

[Squirrel_Captain]

Dumb Question, but how do you set up the mons to play the meta? Like do I have to choose between using an item or adding a secondary move? where do I put the move if I want to use an item?

 

[KaenSoul]

I'm going to assume this goes into the list of unsupported moves, but if Blizzard is in the item slot and Snow is active, will moves be 100% accurate or not?

They would be accurate, but moves with a Freeze chance are all restricted.

Dumb Question, but how do you set up the mons to play the meta? Like do I have to choose between using an item or adding a secondary move? where do I put the move if I want to use an item?

You can't use a regular item if you want to use a move in that slot.

 

[Squirrel_Captain]

They would be accurate, but moves with a Freeze chance are all restricted.

You can't use a regular item if you want to use a move in that slot.

Another Question. Do status moves count as item slots? like can I use calm mind and get a boost evert time I use a move or does it only work for attacking moves?

 

[Cratersmash]

Another Question. Do status moves count as item slots? like can I use calm mind and get a boost evert time I use a move or does it only work for attacking moves?

It only works for attacking moves

 

[Raoul Sanchez]

Tera Blast is bugged therefore we are restricting it in Fortemons
​

Hello, we're going to be restricted Tera Blast in the item slot as the title says. Tera Blast normally has the interaction of increasing the BP of low BP moves once you Tera. There is currently an unintended effect right now that Tera Blast as a Forte applies that effect to all moves and even without Tera. We hit Tera last week, and this interaction would still persist in spite of that. As a result, we're going to restrict the move.

Additionally, our timeline is that hopefully Tera ban will be implemented by tomorrow in the hot patch. We're going to give the meta a day or two to settle post-Tera ban before we begin to vote on things (we may even vote on things sooner if they're a large enough issue). Following that there will be a few day grace period before we launch a survey to gauge the communities' opinion on what we should do next.

KaenSoul poke

Thank you, was getting tired of seeing everyone spam the cheap Stellar tera urshifu and cheese games with an annoying bug. I just decided to stop playing the OM until the tera ban was implemented and that'd hopefully curb the tera blast item usage.

 

[All Lice]

A very 'interesting' interaction I've found is that Sheer Force mons with a forte that gives them added effects will not have recharge turns when using Giga Impact and presumably other recharge moves.
I've used it to honestly kinda middling success on a Tera Normal Physical Breaker Lando-I but if anything it is very funny. The best user is probably Braviary since it's a free 150 BP Sheer Force Boosted STAB but also you're using Braviary so it's a non-starter. Feraligatr is another use case given it's access to set up moves to make it truly deadly but it probably ends up getting more mileage from other Fortes. If only Gatr was a special attacker to abuse Hydro Cannon with this.