they nerfed phoenix wright.
they nerfed
phoenix wright.
they nerfed
phoenix wright.
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General Fighting Game Discussion
- Thread starter lilyhollow
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At least he says "Take that!" now (though he kinda flubbed it).
My entire life comes crashing down in front of me the moment i read this.
At least i still got strider...
I mean, his assist isn't verifiably bad yet, is it? He can just get caught by random supers, and is probably super scared of Dark Phoenix now (whereas he probably had potential against her before). As long as he can't get hit by random stuff they throw out (and I mean, he might. I'm not sure, I need to test him when I get a hold of my PS3 again), it's not a huge huge nerf, just an unnecessary one that weakens him against a number of characters.
I mean it's horrible obviously. Just... hopefully not "great, he is definitely 100% useless now" horrible. Bleh, this really sucks!
On a sunnier note, did anyone catch Skullgirls on the second SCR stream? Starts at ~1:35:00. I'm really enjoying the tension between 3- and 2-character teams so far, and Filia is looking so scaaaaryyyy. At least with Cerecopter assist.
(Also, KoF was awesome.)
I mean it's horrible obviously. Just... hopefully not "great, he is definitely 100% useless now" horrible. Bleh, this really sucks!
On a sunnier note, did anyone catch Skullgirls on the second SCR stream? Starts at ~1:35:00. I'm really enjoying the tension between 3- and 2-character teams so far, and Filia is looking so scaaaaryyyy. At least with Cerecopter assist.
(Also, KoF was awesome.)
Not too interested in Skullgirls, but my interest in KoFXIII is RISING.
He honestly has other areas that need a nerf more than that. then again, it's capcom. expecting decent balancing from those folks is like asking for world peace.
Skullgirls is looking good so far. i am more interested in the future male chars though. i find somewhat hard to play games with a entire single gender cast, which is why i never bothered with Arcana hearts....although honestly, on AH case it has more to do with way too much needless Loli fanservice.
I hate Fanservice.
Skullgirls is looking good so far. i am more interested in the future male chars though. i find somewhat hard to play games with a entire single gender cast, which is why i never bothered with Arcana hearts....although honestly, on AH case it has more to do with way too much needless Loli fanservice.
I hate Fanservice.
???Lucalibur said:
And yeah people like to complain about the fanservice in Skullgirls too, hopefully people will be able to look past that though. It's definitely not AH-league by any stretch, at least.
PW can get all evidences quite easily, and his damage output on his SUPPPEEEEER MOOOOOODE is kinda huge for such a easy to get in mode.
IMO the only real nerf he needs would be make getting the correct evidences a bit harder. i dont see why they bothered to nerf something else.
anyway, sorry i was not more clear about that.
i will look past the fanservice on Skullgirls because The game honestly looks fun. AH seemed more like fanservice with punchs slapped on it rather than the other way around, which is what Skullgirls does(Gives us fighters and slaps boobs in them).
Skullgirls aside, Blazblue CSE is out on the consoles already(JP only) and i have found this beautiful video related to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TmrmvWvVaE
IMO the only real nerf he needs would be make getting the correct evidences a bit harder. i dont see why they bothered to nerf something else.
anyway, sorry i was not more clear about that.
i will look past the fanservice on Skullgirls because The game honestly looks fun. AH seemed more like fanservice with punchs slapped on it rather than the other way around, which is what Skullgirls does(Gives us fighters and slaps boobs in them).
Skullgirls aside, Blazblue CSE is out on the consoles already(JP only) and i have found this beautiful video related to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TmrmvWvVaE
If Wright didn't have the crazy awesome Turnabout assists, I'm convinced he would be a completely non-viable character. Most of the cast can touch you and go into craziness/heavy damage right away. And many of them have the tools to mix you up (or make you come to them) all by themselves, so getting that one touch isn't such a tall order.
Phoenix Wright has to collect several pieces of evidence, and then hit with a slow-as-hell Objection, and then he has to touch you. He does not have any particularly good mixup tools before Turnabout, and his projectiles (when he gets them) seem pretty easily dealt with. Even in Turnabout, he's like... kind of scary I guess? I don't know, I haven't put enough time into this game just yet, but he just doesn't seem that difficult to turtle against, considering that the mode doesn't last forever or anything.
Phoenix Wright has to collect several pieces of evidence, and then hit with a slow-as-hell Objection, and then he has to touch you. He does not have any particularly good mixup tools before Turnabout, and his projectiles (when he gets them) seem pretty easily dealt with. Even in Turnabout, he's like... kind of scary I guess? I don't know, I haven't put enough time into this game just yet, but he just doesn't seem that difficult to turtle against, considering that the mode doesn't last forever or anything.
Hey now, i am not saying he requires a total nerf. i am just saying that he can get the correct evidences a bit too easily. Beam assist+Shield special from the crazy girl is instant 2\3 evidences, and i am pretty sure you can combo into Objection(i am sure you can do it with the correct assist, although i am not sure if you can do it by yourself).
To be honest, he was made with a joke character mindset. we should be surprised he ended up actually being good instead of worst than UMVC3 Pre-Dark Phoenix.
To be honest, he was made with a joke character mindset. we should be surprised he ended up actually being good instead of worst than UMVC3 Pre-Dark Phoenix.
oh my god skullgirls aaaaaaaaa
peacock <3
cannot wait for this game
in other news there was a BB:CS2 tournament at my local gaming store the other day (they do not do regular BB, it was a one off, sadly). now, playing on a PSP for so long... I struggled to get used to the PS3 controller. Thus, with Jin, I had some difficulty pulling off Blizzards in the first match. However, here is my report:
R1: vs Taokaka
First round goes poorly. I fail to get used to the controls, and as a result cannot combo off properly. I luckmash out a Touga Hyojin late-game to level us out, but he can combo more consistently, so I lose.
Second round also goes terribad, but I can do supers more consistently. Rather than going aggro mixup, I was forced to block high his stupid aircombos before retaliating with 6C > dash cancel > 5C > jc > air combo, which was annoying, but I pulled through in the end, if only narrowly.
Third round is now an even match now that I'm broken in, and comfortable with a non-flat controller. I take control of the whole game thanks to hitting with 6B > Sekkajin-8 combo at the beginning. He pulls off a few low-mid combos by catching me off guard with his bullshit mixup, but that gives me enough meter to Hiyoku Getsumei for game.
R2: vs Noel
The guy spammed Chain Revolver, meaning it was easy game so long as I knew which ones were safe/unsafe on block. Annoyingly, Noel is one of the characters I can't do the 6C > 2D > 6C > 214C juggle combo with, so I end up having to pin him against the corner instead. I win both games somewhat easily, but he sneaks in a Fenrir in the second right after I deplete my meter for a double-EX combo.
R3: vs Hazama
ohfuckohfuckohfuck this guy knows what he's doing.
The first round he gets me in the chain-corner lock pretty early, and from there I end up wasting my burst to claim a narrow victory. FUN FACT: 236D goes through Ouroboros :D
The second round he plays a much more pressure-oriented game rather than beatdown, and because Hishoukens are my only projectiles and the non-D versions don't go through Ouroboros, yet Ouroboros is faster and has less recovery, I'm forced to go rushdown. It doesn't end well, and I luck out by timing Hirensou just right so that I get invincibility as he uses Rapture. Closing the distance again was hard, but it only needed a small combo to win from there.
R4: vs Valkenhayn
I got raped, straight up. Game 1 was near perfect, except there was a midair collision between ice car and Nacht Jager. Otherwise, I was wolfbait.
Game 2 I abuse Jin's pressure - spamming 5D now and again to follow up with a 623B > 2C > 6C > 6D > stuff combo barely allowed me to win.
Game 3 he manages to launch his stupid distortion on me, which I think makes it game, but a late-burst followed up with 6C > Hiyoku > 5C > jc > jB > j2C > jC > jD wins me the match.
Final round: vs Valkenhayn
This Valkenhayn was mad different to the one I just faced. Lots of jumping around and straight up endless blockstrings as opposed to super mixup pressure. At this point I curse madly about how jD doesn't hit above Jin, even though the animation clearly does... It's a narrow game, but he catches me in the wolf-loop where he drills up and down. I lose humbly.
Second game is a shambles - at the start we both hop back. Then as both go in for an assault he goes 3C I attempt jB. They miss each other. I launch the first combo, but poor timing means that my jC whiffs, and he recovers and starts applying the hurt. I burst pretty early out of panic and try to swarm him with ice stuff, at one point applying the corner combo; 5B > 5C > 623B > 2C > 6C > 6D > JC > jB > j2C > j.236B, but his air recovery is top notch, and he catches me as I land. I use my SECOND BURST to throw him back into the corner and combo in order to secure game.
Third game.... all I am going to say is that he pulled off an Astral Finish.
So I get second place. A small prize of a bunch of YGO boosters, but it was good to see how my AI training fares against human hands.
Granted, my opponents weren't exactly top notch, but at least now I'm confident that single-player on PSP doesn't leave you as a scrub.
peacock <3
cannot wait for this game
in other news there was a BB:CS2 tournament at my local gaming store the other day (they do not do regular BB, it was a one off, sadly). now, playing on a PSP for so long... I struggled to get used to the PS3 controller. Thus, with Jin, I had some difficulty pulling off Blizzards in the first match. However, here is my report:
R1: vs Taokaka
First round goes poorly. I fail to get used to the controls, and as a result cannot combo off properly. I luckmash out a Touga Hyojin late-game to level us out, but he can combo more consistently, so I lose.
Second round also goes terribad, but I can do supers more consistently. Rather than going aggro mixup, I was forced to block high his stupid aircombos before retaliating with 6C > dash cancel > 5C > jc > air combo, which was annoying, but I pulled through in the end, if only narrowly.
Third round is now an even match now that I'm broken in, and comfortable with a non-flat controller. I take control of the whole game thanks to hitting with 6B > Sekkajin-8 combo at the beginning. He pulls off a few low-mid combos by catching me off guard with his bullshit mixup, but that gives me enough meter to Hiyoku Getsumei for game.
R2: vs Noel
The guy spammed Chain Revolver, meaning it was easy game so long as I knew which ones were safe/unsafe on block. Annoyingly, Noel is one of the characters I can't do the 6C > 2D > 6C > 214C juggle combo with, so I end up having to pin him against the corner instead. I win both games somewhat easily, but he sneaks in a Fenrir in the second right after I deplete my meter for a double-EX combo.
R3: vs Hazama
ohfuckohfuckohfuck this guy knows what he's doing.
The first round he gets me in the chain-corner lock pretty early, and from there I end up wasting my burst to claim a narrow victory. FUN FACT: 236D goes through Ouroboros :D
The second round he plays a much more pressure-oriented game rather than beatdown, and because Hishoukens are my only projectiles and the non-D versions don't go through Ouroboros, yet Ouroboros is faster and has less recovery, I'm forced to go rushdown. It doesn't end well, and I luck out by timing Hirensou just right so that I get invincibility as he uses Rapture. Closing the distance again was hard, but it only needed a small combo to win from there.
R4: vs Valkenhayn
I got raped, straight up. Game 1 was near perfect, except there was a midair collision between ice car and Nacht Jager. Otherwise, I was wolfbait.
Game 2 I abuse Jin's pressure - spamming 5D now and again to follow up with a 623B > 2C > 6C > 6D > stuff combo barely allowed me to win.
Game 3 he manages to launch his stupid distortion on me, which I think makes it game, but a late-burst followed up with 6C > Hiyoku > 5C > jc > jB > j2C > jC > jD wins me the match.
Final round: vs Valkenhayn
This Valkenhayn was mad different to the one I just faced. Lots of jumping around and straight up endless blockstrings as opposed to super mixup pressure. At this point I curse madly about how jD doesn't hit above Jin, even though the animation clearly does... It's a narrow game, but he catches me in the wolf-loop where he drills up and down. I lose humbly.
Second game is a shambles - at the start we both hop back. Then as both go in for an assault he goes 3C I attempt jB. They miss each other. I launch the first combo, but poor timing means that my jC whiffs, and he recovers and starts applying the hurt. I burst pretty early out of panic and try to swarm him with ice stuff, at one point applying the corner combo; 5B > 5C > 623B > 2C > 6C > 6D > JC > jB > j2C > j.236B, but his air recovery is top notch, and he catches me as I land. I use my SECOND BURST to throw him back into the corner and combo in order to secure game.
Third game.... all I am going to say is that he pulled off an Astral Finish.
So I get second place. A small prize of a bunch of YGO boosters, but it was good to see how my AI training fares against human hands.
Granted, my opponents weren't exactly top notch, but at least now I'm confident that single-player on PSP doesn't leave you as a scrub.
Wow, Zystral, thanks for the great tournament report. I also zone with 5D quite a bit as Jin. It works suprisingly well against people who underestimate Jin's reversal potential. It gets even more dangerous when you have a bit of meter, since it cancels into D ice car. I have won several matches with a surprise 5D>214D>632146C.
Right now it sounds like you need to work on using more optimal combos. It seems like you are using some awkward stuff in the corner when you could just be doing the DP Loop. What's especially great about the DP Loop is that you learn the different components and can then do all sorts of things to improvise with it.
Also, do you do 2D>6B>sekka>6C>ice car? It's a very easy and solid hitconfirm from midscreen 2D poke that I use all the time.
Right now it sounds like you need to work on using more optimal combos. It seems like you are using some awkward stuff in the corner when you could just be doing the DP Loop. What's especially great about the DP Loop is that you learn the different components and can then do all sorts of things to improvise with it.
Also, do you do 2D>6B>sekka>6C>ice car? It's a very easy and solid hitconfirm from midscreen 2D poke that I use all the time.
5D > 214D > Touga requires 75% meter, and for that I would rather do 5B > 5C > Sekkajin > dash cancel > 5C > jc> air combo > 214D > 6C > Hiyoku. I'll see if 5D cancels into 214 C, because that can be used for getting some momentum and closing distance, which is nice after a long combo.
Also I'm not sure what the DP loop is. I thought Blizzard > 2C > 6C > 6D > repeat was the corner loop?
And yeah, I like pulling that combo off every so often, but most of the times I will start with 6C > 2D first, but that's mainly because I like using 6C a lot. I get that 6C isn't the best opening move (slow startup), so I'll try 2D a bit more. I tend to avoid 6B though mainly because even though it's a great move, I wish it were an overhead. I don't really find opportunities to 6B outside of after a 2D.
Also I'm not sure what the DP loop is. I thought Blizzard > 2C > 6C > 6D > repeat was the corner loop?
And yeah, I like pulling that combo off every so often, but most of the times I will start with 6C > 2D first, but that's mainly because I like using 6C a lot. I get that 6C isn't the best opening move (slow startup), so I'll try 2D a bit more. I tend to avoid 6B though mainly because even though it's a great move, I wish it were an overhead. I don't really find opportunities to 6B outside of after a 2D.
the DP loop is something along the lines of:
6C>623B>2C>6C>623C>5A>5C>2C>623C
It varies depending on the starter, but the loop itself is based on Multiple C Moves(623C in specific) to constantly keep the enemy on the air. it does good damage, has good meter gain and can be done off most pokes becase Sekkajin forces float on 8th hit.
it's his most simple Corner combo IMO, although not the best one. its kinda of a must know for any Jin user.
5D only cancels into 214D or 236D. i dont know if you can DD cancel it though because i dont use Jin(Main Bang and Sub Ragna here).
Why Cant we tall about the orgasm inducing change that is Bang's 5D floating on hit again just like CS1 and CT instead?
6C>623B>2C>6C>623C>5A>5C>2C>623C
It varies depending on the starter, but the loop itself is based on Multiple C Moves(623C in specific) to constantly keep the enemy on the air. it does good damage, has good meter gain and can be done off most pokes becase Sekkajin forces float on 8th hit.
it's his most simple Corner combo IMO, although not the best one. its kinda of a must know for any Jin user.
5D only cancels into 214D or 236D. i dont know if you can DD cancel it though because i dont use Jin(Main Bang and Sub Ragna here).
Why Cant we tall about the orgasm inducing change that is Bang's 5D floating on hit again just like CS1 and CT instead?
DP Loop is just using repeated DPs in the corner to juggle. It's very consisted and can be initiated from almost any starter. The following all work:
(Throw)>6C>623B>6C>623C>5A>5C>2C>623C
2C(or 3C)>623B>6C>6D>6C>623B>6C>623C
3C>623A>RC>6C>623C>5A>5C>623B>6C>623C>5A>5C>2C>623C
2C FC>sekka>6C>623B>6C>623C>5A>5C>2C>623C
The 623C>5A link can often be replaced with a 5B for extra damage, but only if you hit with the very top of the 623C hitbox. You can also replace the final 623C with a j.D in most variants, which gives you some different options and prevents the combo from ending with them high in the air and potentially able to escape the corner.
You learn these elements, and it lets you get good corner damage in even the strangest scenarios. For example, that 2C FC I listed is not on dustloop, it's one I made up myself on the fly when I landed a 2C fatal in the corner and said, "oh no, I don't know a corner fatal counter combo." As you get good at the DP Loop, you will find yourself doing this all the time, and remembering what works to reuse it. It's part of what makes Jin so fluid, instead of reliant on meticulously memorized, specific combos as most of the top tier is (especially Makoto and Noel).
And yes, I agree that 5D>214D>632146C is nowhere near optimal for 75 meter; as I said, it's something I've used to close out a match with a very easy combo; there is always a risk of dropping elaborate combos like the one you posted (although I do use them where appropriate; I'm a fan of stuff>6C>Hiyoku>6>5C>jc>air combo, personally).
(Throw)>6C>623B>6C>623C>5A>5C>2C>623C
2C(or 3C)>623B>6C>6D>6C>623B>6C>623C
3C>623A>RC>6C>623C>5A>5C>623B>6C>623C>5A>5C>2C>623C
2C FC>sekka>6C>623B>6C>623C>5A>5C>2C>623C
The 623C>5A link can often be replaced with a 5B for extra damage, but only if you hit with the very top of the 623C hitbox. You can also replace the final 623C with a j.D in most variants, which gives you some different options and prevents the combo from ending with them high in the air and potentially able to escape the corner.
You learn these elements, and it lets you get good corner damage in even the strangest scenarios. For example, that 2C FC I listed is not on dustloop, it's one I made up myself on the fly when I landed a 2C fatal in the corner and said, "oh no, I don't know a corner fatal counter combo." As you get good at the DP Loop, you will find yourself doing this all the time, and remembering what works to reuse it. It's part of what makes Jin so fluid, instead of reliant on meticulously memorized, specific combos as most of the top tier is (especially Makoto and Noel).
And yes, I agree that 5D>214D>632146C is nowhere near optimal for 75 meter; as I said, it's something I've used to close out a match with a very easy combo; there is always a risk of dropping elaborate combos like the one you posted (although I do use them where appropriate; I'm a fan of stuff>6C>Hiyoku>6>5C>jc>air combo, personally).
So that is why it blue beats once in a while...
I think going for J.D>Air dash>J.2C>J.C>5B>5C>3C is better than 623C, because it offers better oki, more damage and heat(although its harder to do).
Take what i say with a grant of salt. I think i only used jin on about 100 matches, and most of my experience with him comes from fighting Folks online.
Longer loops will prorate so far that they will be able to tech that sort of ender.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoTe9HyMGRg&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
First competent Valentine gameplay from Skullgirls.
First competent Valentine gameplay from Skullgirls.
I actually saw a lot of Big loops ending with 3C oki. I am on Score attack now, but once i am done i will check just how badly proration must be in order to make 3C oki impossible.
Edit: It appears B and A Starters make 3C Oki impossible. Most C moves starters allow 3C oki though.
So 5C>Sekkajin>6C>Loop>JD>Air Dash>J.2C>J.C>5B>5C>3C looks legit to me. 5B\5A\2A Starter makes it impossible...or maybe i am not trying hard enough.
NEED MOAH GUNDAM
I AM GUNDAM
WE ARE GUNDAM
YO MAMMA IS GUNDAM
DEATHSCYTHE GUNDAM!!!
Although to be honest the Gundam VS Series is not exactly a competitive Fighter...then again, MVC3\UMVC3 is not either(not balanced enough to be one). i doubt enough persons play that to warrant Enough discussion anyway.
As long as a game is strategically deep enough to attract people and that the game promotes and facilitates high level play, then I think balance isn't an issue in a game. Balance is a nice thing to have, but not the first thing you look at to see whether a fighting game is good/competitive.
So yeah, bring on more Gundam.