Weavile + Lucario just to troll everyone's ass. I'd rather use Lucario any day though, or any other OU and UU for that matter.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
General Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Matthew
- Start date
- Status
Has anybody else considered using Aggron? It can come in on even boosted Outrages with its huge Defense, use Autotomize to boost its Speed, and with a Life Orb and an Adamant nature, Head Smash can 2HKO Skarmory. Seriously.
So I haven't played much, if at all since Excadrill got the axe.
In short, someone want to just give me a fast lowdown on how much, if any, the metagame has shifted since?
In short, someone want to just give me a fast lowdown on how much, if any, the metagame has shifted since?
Not much has changed except that volturn is everywhere now.
Overall weather is a little bit less prevelant. Don't let the supposed 20% of teams running sand fool you; almost all of those don't actually use Sand for anything (except maybe boosting Landy). They just are running Tyranitar for other reasons and as a utility weather counter.
Instead Volt-Turn is the dominant strategy, with the vast majority of teams at least having a couple users. It's hardly necessary to use them to succeed though, so I don't really give much of a damn. If anything it's fun to take advantage of the strategy's prevalence by using Pokemon that mess with it.
High offense has wings again, though when Deoxys-S got banned it fell back to the 10%ish range it usually hangs around at. Before then it was Deoxys-S + 5 Sweepers abso-frigin-lutely everywhere.
Overall there are a lot of subtler changes, with some Pokemon rising in usage (Rotom-W and Scizor in particular) and others falling (Gliscor, though it's still very common it's not on every third team anymore). Overall I'd say the game is the most varied it's been since I've started playing, with even Volt-Turn frequently mixing things up aside from the common Scizor/Rotom-W core. A while back people were all using a cookie-cutter Scizor/Rotom-W/Lando/Celebi/Tyranitar/Filler team, but that appears to have become a little less common now that people always have answers for it. Oh, and Terrakion is big business now. You better have some way of dealing with it or it'll steamroll over you're whole team.
It didn't work in 4th Gen because walls tend to survive its attacks with slivers of HP and either Phase it out to prevent it from setting up again, status it to cripple it or just outright OHKO due to Aggron's crippling weaknesses. This especially applied to Gliscor- Aggron simply can't Ice Punch through Gliscor. It's too bulky.
All those problems are still true- and on top of that, Ferrothorn, Gastrodon, Conkeldurr, Scrafty, and Scarfers with any decent speed stat (aka shit ALL FUCKING OVER 5TH GEN) give Aggron nightmares.
As a person who used RP Aggron fairly effectively on the ladder in 4th Gen- I can see now his time is done. Aggron can't stand up to the metagame.
Even as a major Aggron fan, I may have to agree with you. Even with its immense defence and excellent attack, it is far too slow in this speed orientated generation. I have been trying out several strategies so far with numerous Pokémon to try and find ways to cover for its weakness. Even with its immunity to sandstorm its speed kills it; there is no time to boost it with rock polish.
*sigh* Oh well, at least I still have my trusty Arcanine to rely on. I am currently in the process of building a team which revolves around it.
It also has almost as bad defensive typing as Tyranitar, which really doesnt help it set up or survive.
I know this seems like I just have a grudge; but hear me through.
Zapdos seems an immense challenge, or sometimes a small bug, in ones path.
Although it has substantial weaknesses that almost any viable Trainer runs, Zapdos is a reliable source of hate towards another Trainer.
It can wreck many teams up; and since it can also learn Heat Wave ((Besides Articuno, the birds all learn heat wave, if I recall correctly.)), along with that dastardly Sp.Atk base, it can run any Sunny Day team. It can pulverize the Politoed/Drizzle set up easily, then have Ninetales come in and set up sun for Zappy.
Thinking about it in that way really unbalances the already offset Weather Teams. Clear Sky tiers can toss that ideal aside, Zapdos itself is still a monster. Although not much of a Flying type, which I'm sure you readers out there WILL TELL ME, it covers what it has advantages over well.
If you could teach Zapdos a move like Air Slash, say goobye to Conkeldurr. Drizzletoed, eat Thunder!
I'm certain if you want to keep Zapdos as a member, you'd have weaknesses covered. It also has half-decent speed, which is also it's demise,
It does not outspeed much anything; and you will waste EV's into that speed stat; maybe even a Speed increasing nature if you are gutsy.
I am open to criticism to my opinions; and may even provide point,counter-point.
Zapdos seems an immense challenge, or sometimes a small bug, in ones path.
Although it has substantial weaknesses that almost any viable Trainer runs, Zapdos is a reliable source of hate towards another Trainer.
It can wreck many teams up; and since it can also learn Heat Wave ((Besides Articuno, the birds all learn heat wave, if I recall correctly.)), along with that dastardly Sp.Atk base, it can run any Sunny Day team. It can pulverize the Politoed/Drizzle set up easily, then have Ninetales come in and set up sun for Zappy.
Thinking about it in that way really unbalances the already offset Weather Teams. Clear Sky tiers can toss that ideal aside, Zapdos itself is still a monster. Although not much of a Flying type, which I'm sure you readers out there WILL TELL ME, it covers what it has advantages over well.
If you could teach Zapdos a move like Air Slash, say goobye to Conkeldurr. Drizzletoed, eat Thunder!
I'm certain if you want to keep Zapdos as a member, you'd have weaknesses covered. It also has half-decent speed, which is also it's demise,
It does not outspeed much anything; and you will waste EV's into that speed stat; maybe even a Speed increasing nature if you are gutsy.
I am open to criticism to my opinions; and may even provide point,counter-point.
Zapdos is a decent pokemon who is definitely OU viable, but the presence of rotom-w frequently makes finding a niche for zappy difficult. Some of the pokemon that can safely switch in to zapdos, particularly blissey, can switch in on zapdos all day long with no fear, while rotom-w forces them to play more carefully, for fear of getting crippled with trick. Access to w-o-w is another aspect of rotom-w that makes it more common than zapdos.
That aside, Zapdos does have a few things going for it that rotom doesn't. It's blessed with a monstrous base 125 sp atk, which makes volt switch zapdos pretty fearsome with hazard support. Zapdos can also run a sub set better than rotom-w. It can go full support with substitute,tbolt,toxic, and roost or it can run a more offensive sub set with tbolt, hp ice/heat wave, substitute, and roost with toxic spike support.
All in all, zapdos is a good pokemon and if you can find a niche for it on your team, by all means use it. Just be sure not to use it as an inferior rotom-w
That aside, Zapdos does have a few things going for it that rotom doesn't. It's blessed with a monstrous base 125 sp atk, which makes volt switch zapdos pretty fearsome with hazard support. Zapdos can also run a sub set better than rotom-w. It can go full support with substitute,tbolt,toxic, and roost or it can run a more offensive sub set with tbolt, hp ice/heat wave, substitute, and roost with toxic spike support.
All in all, zapdos is a good pokemon and if you can find a niche for it on your team, by all means use it. Just be sure not to use it as an inferior rotom-w
Alas; Rotom.
I believe this is the one thing; besides Blissey, i.e, that keeps Zapdos from Ubers. I realize that Zappy wouldn't stand a chance in Ubers, but what about Borderline? It's like the electric Kyurem.
But; your points are all solid.
Rotom-W walls pretty much half the Zapdos sets I know of, or does em better.
I believe zappy is actually UU right now, lol. The rocks weakness really hurts it, although its stats and movepool are wonderful and it has access to volt switch. Still, the thing isn't broken. It suffers horribly from four-move syndrome and basically needs roost or a spinner to keep it from dying via rocks.
But who says it needs to be broken just to get to BL? If something does what it does extremely well, and then can do 2 different Weather Team set-ups, and then take a couple hits; it deserves a lot of respect.
OU may give it a rightful nest; but sometimes it makes me wonder.
@ The Truth; It's still listed OU.
OU may give it a rightful nest; but sometimes it makes me wonder.
@ The Truth; It's still listed OU.
BL is a tier between UU and OU, not Ou and ubers
In my opinion, zapdos may perform well in UU, and it can do well in OU, but honestly it has too many common weaknesses and common things that wall it or kill it to be considered OP. If your team is having trouble with zapdos, I honesly suggest adding a terrakion, a landorus, a rotom, or one of the numerous other things that zappy has trouble overcoming. I am looking forward to DW zapdos, though; it may be losing heat wave, but it'll be gaining a powerful spot under or against rain with lightningrod.
@ ziggy Wait, it's OU? o_O
Terrakion shouldn't be switching into Zapdos.BL is a tier between UU and OU, not Ou and ubers
In my opinion, zapdos may perform well in UU, and it can do well in OU, but honestly it has too many common weaknesses and common things that wall it or kill it to be considered OP. If your team is having trouble with zapdos, I honesly suggest adding a terrakion, a landorus, a rotom, or one of the numerous other things that zappy has trouble overcoming. I am looking forward to DW zapdos, though; it may be losing heat wave, but it'll be gaining a powerful spot under or against rain with lightningrod.
@ ziggy Wait, it's OU? o_O
It's neutral to Thunderbolt, and dislikes Paralysis. It may resist Heat Wave, but that 30% chance of burning cripples it. I also don't think Stone Edge OHKO's a physically defensive set, although I've not checked.
Not to mention defensive Zapdos may carry Toxic, especially SubRoost.
Terrakion hates all forms of status, and Zapdos is more than capable of inflicting them.
And yeah, DW Zapdos will probobly jump back up to OU. A way to boost his Sp.Atk? While giving him an Immunity to Electric, and allowing him to middle-finger Voltturn? YES.
I'd also argue Zapdos's best weather is Sun. Puedo-STAB on Heat Wave, and the ability to take on Waters easier with a pusedo resistance. Imagine an offensive Agility Zapdos in the sun, coming in on a Volt Switch with Lightlingrod.
That would be carnage.
Zapdos Gen V
Lightningrod Zapdos will be used quite a bit to hit Volt-Turn hard. Problem in my opinion is lack of Heat Wave, but with a Sp. Atk boost maybe it only needs Tbolt/HP Ice.
Zapdos dosen't resist Electric.
Also, I forgot Heat Wave is a Gen 4 Tutor Move, and thus illegal with Lightlingrod.
Unless Grey gives a Heat Wave tutor [Especially as DW Zapdos is unlikly to be released before Grey... in theory, due to the lack of DW pokemon unreleased that aren't Gen 5. Same with the 5th gen DW's, seeing as they don't have overworlds programmed :/]
The problem with Rotom-C is that Landorus is very common in Volt-Turn chains, and his U-Turn wrecks you. Yeah Latias and Celebi havie this problem too, but at least they have reliable recovery...
Also Zapdos doesn't really benefit from sun. He doesn't get any notable OHKO or 2HKO with Heat Wave so no real advantage.
In the other hand Zapdos in rain is a beast, even more with Lightningrod. In rain he can use Thunder, which simply destroyes, and he is a ridiculously good Ttar bait which is easily 2HKOed by HP Fighting and Expert Belt. The other 2 moves should be Roost for healing and Volt-Switch for scouting. He can also quite effectively bluff a Choice item with Expert Belt, as most of the time you will be spamming Volt Switch and Thunder.
Why use him over Rotom-W? Ok for the DW Zapdos there is no need for an answer. But for the one we have now, here is the reasoning:
1. Zapdos can actually lure Ttar, while Rotom-W can't, allowing you to win weather wars much easily.
2. Zapdos has reliable recovery
3. Zapdos Thunder simply destroys, as 20 more base SpA really makes a difference. For example even without HP Ice, Haxorus is outsped and 2HKOed by Modest Expert Belt Thunder after SR. Same goes for Hydreigon, which is 2HKOed by a combination of Thunder and HP Fighting after SR.
4. Zapdos provides a useful Fighting and Bug resistance, and is almost a perfect Scizor counter, unlike Rotom-W. I didn't mention Zapdos's Grass resistance since he can't really beat any OU grass type IN rain, except Ferrothorn. And anyway i don't like the idea of running Heat Wave on Zapdos in a rain team just for 1 poke .
5. Zapdos is faster. This means that some threats like Lucario, Haxorus and Hydreigon can't revenge kill you without a Scarf. Also Modest Zapdos outspeeds Timid Rotom-W by 1 point! (not that it matters, since Scarf-less Timid Rotom-W is pretty rare, just for the laughs)
Of 'course Zapdos has its drawbacks in comparison to Rotom-W as we all know, such as SR weakness, lack of Water typing and Water moves and lack of WoW.
I believe he meant with Lightningrod, it's immune to it..
Losing heatwave is nothing when compared to having an electric immunity that raises your special attack. Heck Zapdos was solidly OU last gen without heatwave. Heatwave isn't even the main slash on Zapdos's defensive sets for 5th gen.
The thing is: for defensive sets Pressure is really useful,as it helps stall out of PP attacks such as Stone Edge and Ice Beam ( subroost anyone? )
It's for an offensive Zapdos that lightning rod would be way more useful, to catch SPA boosts and start dishing out death from above. But losing heat wave... =(
It's for an offensive Zapdos that lightning rod would be way more useful, to catch SPA boosts and start dishing out death from above. But losing heat wave... =(
- Status