NU Gourgeist-XL



QC: hollywood, CanadianWifier, Montsegur
GP: Psywaves, P Squared


Overview
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With sky-high physical bulk and reliable means of recovery, Gourgeist-XL is the definition of a great physical wall. Thanks to its dual typing, Gourgeist-XL can work as a spinblocker that beats common spinners in the tier, and it can also stop some metagame-defining threats such as Sawk, Hariyama, and Rhydon with its access to Will-O-Wisp and Foul Play offering it an advantage over opposing physical attackers. However, in order to be able to handle most physical attackers in the tier, Gourgeist-XL is often forced to run a predictable set, which makes it very passive when put up against opposing defensive Pokemon or powerful special attackers.


Physically Defensive
########
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Will-O-Wisp
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Synthesis
move 4: Foul Play
ability: Frisk
item: Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpD
nature: Bold / Impish

Moves
========

Will-O-Wisp is used to spread burns, rack up passive damage on the opposing team, weaken physical attackers, and take away any chance of them breaking through Gourgeist-XL. Leech Seed offers recovery and deals passive damage to switch-ins, such as Fire-types coming in on a predicted Will-O-Wisp. Synthesis is Gourgeist-XL's reliable means of recovery, allowing it to stay healthy throughout the match and be able to repeatedly switch into physically offensive threats. Foul Play is preferred as the offensive move due to its ability to punish sweepers that may have means of getting past Will-O-Wisp burns, such as Swords Dance Sandslash holding a Lum Berry. Seed Bomb is an option as a Grass-type STAB move that allows Gourgeist-XL to hit Water- and Ground-types. Protect can be used to stall for more turns of Leftovers, burn damage, and Leech Seed recovery.


Set Details
========

Investing 248 HP EVs augments Gourgeist-XL's bulk and makes it take less damage from entry hazards. 200 Defense EVs paired with a Bold or Impish nature hit a jump point, while the remaining 60 EVs invested into Special Defense will aid Gourgeist in surviving two Fire Blasts from Tauros or two Shadow Balls from offensive Claydol. Leftovers is the preferred option for an item, as it offers passive recovery. Frisk is usually the most useful ability, allowing you to scout for Choice items or a Lum Berry,which would render Will-O-Wisp useless.

Usage Tips
========

Due to its Ghost / Grass typing, Gourgeist-XL makes for a great spinblocker, as its physical bulk allows it to survive non-STAB Knock Offs, while it can also take out common spinners such as Sandslash and Claydol by itself. Using incoming Normal- or Fighting-type moves to obtain free switches gives Gourgeist-XL opportunities to heal itself back up or spread status through the opposing team. Gourgeist-XL's bulk should not be overestimated, and it should take advantage of any chance to heal and keep itself healthy for the most part. Fire-types are common counters to Gourgeist-XL and will try to come in on a Will-O-Wisp or Synthesis; therefore, Leech Seed may be a better option for passive damage in the early stages of the game when opposing Fire-types are still around.

Team Options
========

Gourgeist-XL can fulfill a spinblocker role on a hazard-stacking team, which is why leads such as Crustle alongside Defiant users are great teammates. Being weak to the common Fire-types, Gourgeist-XL should be paired up with a Fire check, such as Hariyama or Mantine. Lanturn deserves a mention as a partner due to resisting Flying-, Fire- and Ice-type attacks, while Gourgeist-XL patches up its weaknesses. Having a bulky Steel- or Rock-type, such as Klinklang or Rhydon, to easily dispatch of Archeops, Scyther, and Swellow will make Gourgeist-XL's job easier, as they are some of the few physical attackers that directly threaten it.


Other Options
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Rock Slide can be used on Gourgeist-XL to hit common switch-ins that are not affected by its usual moves, such as Swellow, Pyroar, and Xatu. Magic Coat is an option to take advantage of opposing Ferroseed, which do not take much damage from any of Gourgeist-XL's moves besides Will-O-Wisp. Gourgeist-XL can also be used as a bulky Trick Room setter, pairing up really well with Mega Camerupt, one of the most powerful Trick Room sweepers. A specially defensive EV spread can make Gourgeist-XL a mixed wall, but it comes at the cost of losing the ability to reliably check powerful physical attackers over the course of the game.


Checks & Counters
########

**Fire-types**: Offensive Fire-types, such as Typhlosion, Magmortar, and Mega Camerupt, can switch in on Gourgeist-XL and immediately threaten it out with their STAB moves, as it gives them free turns while using Will-O-Wisp or Synthesis. Most of those won't appreciate being hit with a Foul Play on the switch, especially mixed variants of Magmortar, but they still pose a huge threat to Gourgeist-XL even when weakened. Using Leech Seed early-game can slowly whittle them down and make it easier for Gourgeist-XL's teammates to switch in.

**Grass-types**: Grass-types are immune to Leech Seed, and most of them, such as Vileplume and Lilligant, can take Gourgeist-XL's attacks and either set up on it or undo its work if they are running moves such as Heal Bell or Aromatherapy. The best retaliation that Gourgeist-XL can achieve is pressuring them with Will-O-Wisp burns.

**Special Attacks**: Strong special attacks, such as Shadow Ball from Rotom or Mismagius, Ice Beam from Samurott, and even neutral STAB moves from Pokemon such as Mesprit, take advantage of Gourgeist-XL's low special bulk and will most of the time 2HKO it. Specially offensive Pokemon, such as Rotom-S and Samurott, won't appreciate coming in on Leech Seed or Will-O-Wisp, but once they switch in, Gourgeist-XL is quickly forced out.

**Taunt / Encore**: As most of Gourgeist-XL's moveset consists of status moves, being unable to use them when under the effects of Taunt or Encore from Pokemon such as Archeops, Electivire, Liepard, Mawile, and Samurott will harshly lower Gourgeist-XL's usefulness and longevity. Physically offensive Pokemon with access to Encore or Taunt, such as Archeops, Electivire, and Liepard, can take advantage of Gourgeist-XL's attempt to wall them and render it useless for the next few turns.

**Xatu**: As the only notable Magic Bounce user, Xatu can usually get free turns against Gourgeist-XL. A physically defensive EV spread on Xatu allows it to take less damage from Foul Play than it can recover with Roost, which gives it an easy time setting up on Gourgeist-XL.

**Swellow**: As it resists both of Gourgeist-XL's STAB moves and has Guts to take advantage of Will-O-Wisp burns, Swellow is a decent answer to Gourgeist-XL on offensive teams, although, due to its frailty, Swellow has to be wary of switching into Foul Play or Rock Slide, which will harshly reduce its longevity.
 
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Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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Overview
########

  • Great physical bulk
  • Ghost / Grass typing stops many offensive threats in the tier
  • Utility in Will-o-Wisp and Leech Seed
  • Uninvested base 100 Attack hits decently hard for a wall
  • Weak to the common Fire spam
- Would you care to at least name the threats Gourgeist can stop? Because I doubt it stops that many.
- The base 100 Atk is somewhat deceptive since Gourgeist doesn't have the best STABs, so it does not hit decently; in fact I find Gourgeist rather helpless and passive a majority of the time.
- It's not just Fire spam it has to worry about. All of its weaknesses, namely to Flying, Ice, Ghost, Dark, and the aforementioned Fire are commonplace, and means that Gourgeist is usually under constant threat from several threats at once.


Physically Defensive
########
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Will-o-Wisp
move 3: Seed Bomb
move 4: Shadow Sneak / Phantom Force / Protect
ability: Frisk
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Impish

Moves
========

Leech Seed and Will-o-Wisp are the main moves on this set, allowing Gourgeist-Super to not be setup bait for its common switch-ins. Seed Bomb is the most reliably offensive move, hitting opposing Ground and Ice types into which Gourgeist switches in often. The last moveslot can either be filled with a secondary Ghost STAB or Protect. Shadow Sneak is a useful priority move against weakened Jynx, Mismagius, and Rotom that would otherwise force out Gourgeist-Super. Protect can be used to stall for Leech Seed recovery or residual burn damage.
- First off, this should be bullet pointed.
- Second, I think Synthesis should be on the set somewhere. Gourgeist finds itself Knocked Off its Leftovers a good majority of the time, given that it commonly responds to Fighting-types, but Leech Seed recovery alone won't sustain Gourgeist too well (since Gourgeist's HP is much larger than Ferroseed's), not to mention it can be denied by opposing Grass-types, meaning Gourgeist very easily gets whittled down. This is a huge part of why Gourgeist isn't a good pick prior to ORAS, and should definitely be listed on the set.
- I think you meant to say Seed Bomb hits Ice Water-types.
- I doubt Phantom Force's effectiveness on the set. It is by no means a reliable way to hit Xatu, and the 2-turn charge means Gourgeist is remarkably easy to take advantage of, especially given it cannot immediately respond with status moves against the switch-in. It's also a free switch-in for dangerous Normal-types such as Pyroar, Swellow, and Zangoose, Pokemon which you do not want to give free switches into.

Set Details
========

Maximizing physical bulk allows Gourgeist-Super to take on the most common physical threats in the tier, such as Feraligatr, Sawk, and Malamar. Leftovers offers passive recovery, and Frisk is usually the most useful ability, allowing you to scout for Choice items or Lum Berries that may hinder your Will-o-Wisp.
See the fact that you're using this to respond to the likes of Sawk and Malamar only stresses the need to run Synthesis; Leech Seed alone won't last you against them, especially if a Xatu is present.

Other Options
########

Rock Slide can also be used on Gourgeist-Super to hit incoming Flying types, usually Archeops. Pain Split is an option for a recovery move that also weakens the opponent, but it will most of the time be outclassed by either Synthesis or Leech Seed.
Rock Slide is to hit targets that aren't phased by Leech Seed and / or Will-O-Wisp, and Archeops is certainly affected by both. The main targets for Rock Slide are Fire-types, Swellow, and Xatu. You can also probably remove Pain Split outright; it's not just unreliable recovery, but SuperGeist's large HP means it can even often backfire.


Checks & Counters
########

***Fire-types*** Those are the most potent counters to Gourgeist-Super, as they take minimal damage from its moves and can take advantage of the turns when it uses Will-o-Wisp.

***Grass-types*** Gourgeist can be setup bait for a Grass-type Pokemon such as Lilligant, which can only be hindered by Will-o-Wisp at best.

***Flying-types*** Strong Flying-type Pokemon can get past Gourgeist's physical bulk, and some such as Swellow won't even mind the status inflicting moves it can carry.

***Magic Bounce*** Xatu is the usual Magic Bounce user and it can use Gourgeist as a setup bait, as none of Gourgeist's moves will be able to 2HKO the physically defensive CM set.
- You can probably make special mention to Ninetales for Fire-types due to its access to Flash Fire, or Pyroar due to its resistance to both of Gourgeist's STABs.
- You can also note that clerical Grass-types, such as Vileplume, can even easily undo Gourgeist's work, while Gourgeist can do nothing in return.
- Instead of Flying-types to bypass Gourgeist's physical bulk, why not mention Pokemon that hit Gourgeist on the special side, like almost every special attacker in the tier?
- Substitute and Taunt completely shit on SuperGeist for the most part.
 

CanadianWifier

Run Away With Me
No, we moved back to the system where you get 2 checks before writing :s
oh, rip didn't read. I'm happy for that at least, way we were doing it was dumb lol.



To prevent this post from being completely void of suggestions, can I see a SpDef spread please get added? Hollywood has been using it ever since the M-Sceptile meta, and while the main things it checks may have left, its still a fantastic set. I personally haven't used it much, so Hollywood pls help.

Also I'm not entirely convinced a TR support set needs to exist m_m
 

ryan

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problem with gourgeist in general right now is that it gives a free switch to megarupt but yea spdef is still a good set. it's not as good in this meta, but it's still worth mentioning a spdef spread in set details.

mention seed bomb in moves but make foul play the only move on the actual set. like punchshroom said, gourgeist is super weak because its stabs are ass, foul play resolves that a bit. also change the nature to Bold since Foul Play will be the only attack on the set. last move should definitely not be a second attacking move. make it Protect / Synthesis.

Trick Room set to Other Options. mention Magic Coat in OO to shit on ferroseed which can set up spikes all over gourgeist (doesn't like getting burned in the process, but if you don't have a hazard remover, it's still nice to keep it from getting spikes up).
 
Ugh, for some reason I tried to make Gourgeist look better than it is. Let's try to make this right.

- Would you care to at least name the threats Gourgeist can stop? Because I doubt it stops that many.
I took that part out. I was thinking Cacturne, Electivire, Feraligatr, Kangaskhan, Sawk and Mega-Steelix; but I then realised SD Lum Feraligatr, CB Sawk and mixed Electivire can get past it.
Added or edited out most of the other things you said. Thank you. :)

mention seed bomb in moves but make foul play the only move on the actual set. like punchshroom said, gourgeist is super weak because its stabs are ass, foul play resolves that a bit. also change the nature to Bold since Foul Play will be the only attack on the set. last move should definitely not be a second attacking move. make it Protect / Synthesis.
I added Foul Play to the set. Now, not to be that guy, but I strongly believe Seed Bomb is worth having as an option too. The only things that Foul Play hits noticeably harder in NU are Archeops, Muk, Zangoose, Bouffalant and Exeggutor. It is quite important in the case of SubSD Bouffalant, but I am not sure if I should discuss this as most of its use is due to Serperior nowadays. Other Pokemon that are weak to Foul Play get hit harder by Seed Bomb, those being Rotom, Mismagius and Jynx. Ground and Water types are also hit harder by Seed Bomb, and I'd say that's decent in a tier where Feraligatr, Seismitoad and Kabutops are quite common.

Also I was in the middle of writing the Specially Defensive set when it downed upon me that the only relevant offensive special attackers that can't 2HKO SpD Gourgeist are Mesprit and Swift Swim Seismitoad. Offensive Mega-Audino can be somewhat stopped as well by the Leech Seed + Will-o-Wisp combination. Exeggutor, Jynx, Specs Lanturn, Ludicolo, Mismagius, Rotom, Samurott and Vivillon can 2HKO 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gourgeist. Magmortar, Mega-Camerupt, Pyroar and Typhlosion can 1HKO 252 / 252+ SpD Gourgeist. Lilligant can set up on it, only fearing Will-o-Wisp. So I'd like a second opinion if this set is really worthy to be there?
 

ryan

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you beat feraligatr, seismitoad, and kabutops without seed bomb. you're forced out anyways by mismagius and jynx (you can scout against rotom with protect if you've got it).

spdef gourgeist is a mixed wall. I don't want it to be a set anyways; I asked for the spdef spread to be added to set details.
 

scorpdestroyer

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you need to work on your overview. everything currently in there can be googled up. your job as the analysis writer is to tell readers about Gourgeist's role: tell us what it does, not just what it has. what is it about this mon that will make me stop and think "wow I really need something like Gourgeist-Super"? List the mons it checks, ability to spinblock, etc.
 
Worked on the Overview, added common Pokemons that it checks or counters, roles it fulfills and extra moves that can be helpful.
 

ryan

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Bowtie Addo

I think SpDef is probably the best set again because it wrecks Heliolisk. There's probably some good mixed defensive spread that lets it beat Virizion and Heliolisk, but I haven't run calcs with it yet. Definitely need to mention both though because it's one of the few Pokemon that outright beats Heliolisk.

checks and counters is way too clogged up right now too.
 

Punchshroom

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I think SpDef is probably the best set again because it wrecks Heliolisk. There's probably some good mixed defensive spread that lets it beat Virizion and Heliolisk, but I haven't run calcs with it yet. Definitely need to mention both though because it's one of the few Pokemon that outright beats Heliolisk.
Edit: hollywood Gourgeist doesn't need much SpD investment at all to answer Heliolisk, plus full SpD Gourgeist still loses to CM Virizion anyway. That said, I've tweaked around with a mixed defensive spread, and 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpD seems like a good initial spread. It allows SuperGeist to always survive 2 Fire Blasts from Tauros and 2 Shadow Balls from Claydol, while the Defense EVs hit a jump point. It now does have a 18.8% chance to be OHKOed by +3 Gurdurr's Knock Off, as opposed to max HP / max Def SuperGeist always surviving the blow.
 
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Added a SpD set as a mixed wall. Mentioned Punchshroom's spread in the Physically Defensive set, thank you for doing the calcs :]
 

Punchshroom

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What I meant was that my suggested spread combines both the physically defensive spread's walling ability with the specially defensive spread's ability to take some SE special moves, like Tauros's Fire Blast and Claydol's Shadow Ball. I find the specially defensive spread pretty obsolete actually, and the physically defensive spread should just be the spread I provided (248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpD).
 

ryan

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You pretty much need max/max to switch into Heliolisk consistently throughout the match, but there's basically 0% chance it's staying so I'm fine with moving forward with Punchshroom's spread.

Will-O-Wisp > Will-o-Wisp, took me forever to get used to that when I first got started in C&C

Overview should be more brief. Cut the obvious stuff that isn't crucial to Gourgeist's success. As another con for Gourgeist, you can mention that it's very passive.

Honestly I think the set should just be Will-O-Wisp / Leech Seed / Synthesis / Foul Play. You can mention Leech Seed / Protect in Moves, but I think Synthesis is way too important to cut.

Change Magic Bounce in Checks and Counters to Xatu since it's the only relevant user of the ability.

QC 1/3 Bowtie Addo
 

CanadianWifier

Run Away With Me
Rearrange moves in the Moves section to reflect the order they are actually listed in.
Really weird use of the word "indicated" in Usage Tips. I actually googled it, and grammatically speaking it is correct, but you could just as easily change it to "preferable" and make the sentence easier to read.

Once you do that, 2/3 have fun writing :)
 
May I suggest a specially bulky set? Given its physical bulk is so high i never found a problem with running a spdef Gour accompanied by another bulky mon with (somewhat) inverted bulk stats. Just an idea since its the one I always use
 

Punchshroom

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May I suggest a specially bulky set? Given its physical bulk is so high i never found a problem with running a spdef Gour accompanied by another bulky mon with (somewhat) inverted bulk stats. Just an idea since its the one I always use
Specially defensive can probably see a mention in Set Details as an alternate spread to achieve better mixed bulk, but it doesn't look good enough to warrant its own set imo because:
1) it still doesn't accomplish much that the physically defensive spread with the minor SpD investment doesn't
2) its matchups against the Pokemon it comfortably walled, such as Feraligatr, Sawk, Gurdurr, and Kangaskhan, now become a lot shakier, especially after SR
3) you'd probably be better off using another bulky Grass-type entirely
 

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