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OU Haxorus
- Thread starter Jaroda
- Start date
Technically that is how it is done. It's an easy enough fix.
If I may ask, what specifically do we need to know about the EV spread?
The old EV spread recommended didn't tally up right, and there are some options regarding optimization in terms of bulk and speed that I'd like input on. I'd like to know if the one I just quoted seems like the best because it does to me.
Seems relevant to me as well. Go ahead and use that as the spread. The sacrifice in Attack is worth it when you can possibly keep Talonflame off your back.
Alright cool, changes made. Just need two more QCs.
EDIT: Also worth mention is that Scarf Landorus-T can't be 2HKO at +1, but is always both outsped and OHKO at +2 with Outrage even with Intimidate factored in, meaning he isn't the most significant threat to outspeed since it doesn't really do you any favors and getting to +2 isn't insanely difficult. If he switches in while you +1 its always better to nab a second boost rather than hit Outrage early, meaning you'll take a hit either way. Meaning it may still be more practical to sacrifice that speed to beat Scarf Excadrill, or even slower, to remax attack or add to bulk.
EDIT: Also worth mention is that Scarf Landorus-T can't be 2HKO at +1, but is always both outsped and OHKO at +2 with Outrage even with Intimidate factored in, meaning he isn't the most significant threat to outspeed since it doesn't really do you any favors and getting to +2 isn't insanely difficult. If he switches in while you +1 its always better to nab a second boost rather than hit Outrage early, meaning you'll take a hit either way. Meaning it may still be more practical to sacrifice that speed to beat Scarf Excadrill, or even slower, to remax attack or add to bulk.
Small nitpick; in Set Details you mention 64 Def allowing Haxorus to survive Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird after Stealth Rock then in Checks and Counters you say that Talonflame OHKOes with the same attack after Stealth Rock.
Missed while editing. Thank you
Definitely. Just been waiting on my 3rd QC
You have to write this up in order to get your 3rd QC check. You only need 2 checks to write up an analysis.
Why is Jolly the main nature? Outspeeding regular Lucario is a silly reason, when the Adamant boost is so vital to getting certain OHKO / 2HKOes. For example:
Just to name a few. Also, Life Orb should be slashed after Lum Berry. It allows Haxorus to OHKO Pokemon such as physically defensive Clefable and Sylveon, making it much easier to get past defensive teams, which is one of the main reasons to use Haxorus in the first place, as Mold Breaker allows it to get past Clefable and Quagsire, which Dragonite can't do.
Also, i am thinking we should add an SD set, which demolishes defensive teams but sadly has no use against offensive ones, though i am not sure. It's Haxorus's only set that can get past Skarmory, making it practically unwallable by defensive teams, which does have some merit, but its lack of usefulness against offense may be too much of a con idk. Thoughts?
- +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 278-328 (85.8 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
- +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 297-349 (81.5 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 258-304 (80.6 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Just to name a few. Also, Life Orb should be slashed after Lum Berry. It allows Haxorus to OHKO Pokemon such as physically defensive Clefable and Sylveon, making it much easier to get past defensive teams, which is one of the main reasons to use Haxorus in the first place, as Mold Breaker allows it to get past Clefable and Quagsire, which Dragonite can't do.
Also, i am thinking we should add an SD set, which demolishes defensive teams but sadly has no use against offensive ones, though i am not sure. It's Haxorus's only set that can get past Skarmory, making it practically unwallable by defensive teams, which does have some merit, but its lack of usefulness against offense may be too much of a con idk. Thoughts?
It wasn't just regular Lucario, Jolly Excadrill was a big one, and being able to outspeed a few scarfed sets at +1.
I have LO in the OO mentioned, but in my testing I found Lum Berry to be the best to help you get to +2 more reliably which is always better than +1 with LO. Plus the recoil ends your rampage far too early, on top of Outrage confusion. If you were going to use it for slow wall breaking like you mentioned, than Adamant with Swords Dance and LO would indeed be a great combination for that purpose. Admittedly though if the goal is to usually get to +2 anyway. But the QCs said to only have a Dragon Dance set listed. Also Taunt can be used over Poison Jab if you want other team mates to rely on taking care of Fairies, as Taunt is devastating against defensive teams obviously and really cripples any Skarmory switching in.
I have LO in the OO mentioned, but in my testing I found Lum Berry to be the best to help you get to +2 more reliably which is always better than +1 with LO. Plus the recoil ends your rampage far too early, on top of Outrage confusion. If you were going to use it for slow wall breaking like you mentioned, than Adamant with Swords Dance and LO would indeed be a great combination for that purpose. Admittedly though if the goal is to usually get to +2 anyway. But the QCs said to only have a Dragon Dance set listed. Also Taunt can be used over Poison Jab if you want other team mates to rely on taking care of Fairies, as Taunt is devastating against defensive teams obviously and really cripples any Skarmory switching in.
First, Jolly Excadrill is pretty rare from my experience, and they carry Balloon most of the time anyway. What are the Scarfers you miss on outspeeding with Adamant? Second, i agree that Lum is superior, which is why LO should be slashed after it. However, having the power to muscle through common defensive cores is great, and one of the reasons to use Haxorus in the first place. If you just want to fuck up offensive teams, go with Dragonite, which is 100% better versus them. You are using DD Haxorus for its ok performance against offensive teams while simultaneously being able to do some wallbreaking on its own vs defensive teams.
And yeah, i know the SD set was rejected, but i want more discussion about it because it does have a few merits, and will have even more when Mega Lucario and possibly Genesect get banned in a few days.
And yeah, i know the SD set was rejected, but i want more discussion about it because it does have a few merits, and will have even more when Mega Lucario and possibly Genesect get banned in a few days.
It was Rotom W/H, Excadrill, Landorus-T and Kyurem-B at the time. However the meta is indeed quite different from when this analysis was made over a month ago, and scarf Lando-T turns out not to be a threat anyway with Dragon Dance considering the calcs unless it is revenging a weak +1 Haxorus, and people don't use scarf KyuB. I don't disagree that Adamant likely has more merit at this stage considering you'd need two boosts regardless to outspeed the Genesect scarf users and faster. I'm certainly up for discussion, but it's ultimately not my call. But I assume the SD set would look something like:
Haxorus@Life Orb
Mold Breaker
Adamant/Jolly 252 At / 4 Df / 252 Spd
~ Swords Dance
~ Double Chop/Dragon claw/Outrage
~ Earthquake
~ Poison Jab/Taunt
Haxorus@Life Orb
Mold Breaker
Adamant/Jolly 252 At / 4 Df / 252 Spd
~ Swords Dance
~ Double Chop/Dragon claw/Outrage
~ Earthquake
~ Poison Jab/Taunt
This is how the SD set would be:
Haxorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Earthquake
- Taunt / Superpower
You don't need Poison Jab, as +2 LO EQ deals with any Fairy-type anyway, and i haven't seen Togekiss on defensive teams, but that may just be me. Taunt is obviously very useful against Skarmory, but Superpower still does over half at +2, weakening it so that another Pokemon can break through, while also hitting Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor harder.
Haxorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Earthquake
- Taunt / Superpower
You don't need Poison Jab, as +2 LO EQ deals with any Fairy-type anyway, and i haven't seen Togekiss on defensive teams, but that may just be me. Taunt is obviously very useful against Skarmory, but Superpower still does over half at +2, weakening it so that another Pokemon can break through, while also hitting Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor harder.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 299-352 (75.8 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 264-312 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 264-312 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
This is the only Fairy where you'd want Poison Jab, as unfortunately not even hitting Clefable on the switch with +0 LO Earthquake will let you avoid damage.
So yeah, Taunt is indeed better. I think for the purpose of breaking defensive teams though you'd want Double Chop to break Substitutes. It's the same power for only 10% less accuracy and for Haxorus' intended role with this set, I think it'd be a better fit. As for Ferrothorn at least, Taunt also shuts down Leech Seed, Protect, hazards and Thunder Wave and +2 EQ is a nice 2HKO while avoiding Iron Barb and potential Rocky Helmet damage. Mega Scizor is iffy as +2 LO Superpower still doesn't guarantee a kill.
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 264-312 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 264-312 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
This is the only Fairy where you'd want Poison Jab, as unfortunately not even hitting Clefable on the switch with +0 LO Earthquake will let you avoid damage.
So yeah, Taunt is indeed better. I think for the purpose of breaking defensive teams though you'd want Double Chop to break Substitutes. It's the same power for only 10% less accuracy and for Haxorus' intended role with this set, I think it'd be a better fit. As for Ferrothorn at least, Taunt also shuts down Leech Seed, Protect, hazards and Thunder Wave and +2 EQ is a nice 2HKO while avoiding Iron Barb and potential Rocky Helmet damage. Mega Scizor is iffy as +2 LO Superpower still doesn't guarantee a kill.
As for speed with Adamant 252 is unnecessary, it gives him the equivalent of base 84. 220 Spd with Adamant keeps you faster than Jolly Dragonite and Mamoswine, so that leaves 36 EVs which I think are better for defense than HP since you are using Life Orb and you'll take less hazard, physical and most priority damage. But again it only takes 64 Df to always survive CB Talonflame with rocks so Adamant 224 At / 64 Df / 220 Spd is a uniquely tailored blend. I don't think the 28 At EVs will make any crucial KO differences unless you can find otherwise. Thoughts?
Mold Breaker blocks Sturdy.
read through most of the posts and i don't see anyone mentioning it, but 252 + 64 + 200 = 516. EVs on DD set are 8 over.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
Life orb adamant SD set doesnt need superpower because you chunk the hell out of skarm anyways, and you can boost in its face if tries to roost on your outrages. I much preferred poison jab when using to mash past clefable. Of course this set is bad against offense but its so initlaly strng you can kind of just throw it out there and its going to chunk anything not super bulky at +0 so it tends to pull its weight a lot.
Not QC but I'm seeing 64 Def EVs being thrown in to ensure survival against CB Talon's Brave Bird after rocks, but the problem is that those EVs don't actually ensure survival, so the wording in the analysis is false.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 64 Def Haxorus: 238-282 (81.2 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
In order to ensure survival, you need 156 Def EVs, and there's no reason to invest so heavily into Def.
Actually now that I think about it, 64 Def doesn't do much for you other than hoping for a low damage roll, so you might as well go with an Adamant 252 Atk/36 Def/220 Spe spread instead since that allows you to still always survive CB Talonflame at full health without rocks while giving you maximum attack power and enough speed to outspeed Jolly Mamoswine. I believe that spread could apply to both the DD and SD sets, though for the DD set an alternate Adamant 120 HP/252 Atk/136 Spe spread allows you to outspeed +1 Adamant Dragonite and Gyarados after a boost while granting more all-around bulk:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 256-303 (79.2 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Just my two cents.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 64 Def Haxorus: 238-282 (81.2 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
In order to ensure survival, you need 156 Def EVs, and there's no reason to invest so heavily into Def.
Actually now that I think about it, 64 Def doesn't do much for you other than hoping for a low damage roll, so you might as well go with an Adamant 252 Atk/36 Def/220 Spe spread instead since that allows you to still always survive CB Talonflame at full health without rocks while giving you maximum attack power and enough speed to outspeed Jolly Mamoswine. I believe that spread could apply to both the DD and SD sets, though for the DD set an alternate Adamant 120 HP/252 Atk/136 Spe spread allows you to outspeed +1 Adamant Dragonite and Gyarados after a boost while granting more all-around bulk:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 256-303 (79.2 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Just my two cents.