Hidden power: are we realling running the best Hidden powers?

Now I know people run hidden power ice a lot, with electric and fighting getting its usage, fighting in UU mainly, and electric is used mainly on waters when no Tbolt (aka kingdra) is available, but are we using hidden power as a one stop gap to counter Garchomp (ice again) and forgetting that we do have 16 types at our disposal.
From what I have seen in the metagame in recent times, is that perhaps we should start looking at a broader hidden power picture and using it as a phase beating move.
In recent times i have thought about using hidden power BUG? why?
Bug is a vastly underused type in terms of usage (only 2 in OU ninjask and yanmega) yet bug has a good type coverage, very little in OU resists it, lets look at what people use in OU and weight it up.

hidden power bug super effective on:
celebi x4
tyranitar x2
cressalia x2
WOBBUFFET X2
deoxys-s X2
starmie x2
azelf x2
abomasnow x2
Breloom x2
alakazam x2
Wevile x2

does neutral on
bronzong
metagross
jirachi
gallade
roserade
garchomp
(not listed all neutrals as these i feel are the main)

resistance
Gyarados x0.5
tentacruel x0.5
skarmory x0.25
heracross x0.5
heatran x0.25
gengar x0.5

from what i can see here the advantages of running bug far outweighs the negatives of running it, as a fair few of the super effective hits, are on major OU players. Other notables go to HP fire as well and possibly ground.
 
Uhm, if you want to make a thread like this, why don't you compare hp bug and ice and convince us that bug (or any other type for that matter) is better?
Oh, and heracross uses bug attacks too.

And bug is not SE against breloom.
 
Hidden Powers are mostly used for the 4x effectiveness or to hit things that are other resisted, because any STAB move with BP 95 or higher is stronger even with a nuetral hit, thanks to STAB. most special attacking pokes have access to a 95 BP, in fact the only real special attackers that could possibly need HP bug would be something like a psychic spattacker since there stab would be resisted by most the pokes you listed. And surprisingly enough, HP bug is listed on some Psychic pokes, but mostly for UU ones eg Hypno and Grumpig, because in OU fighting is just that much more necessary since it gets 4x on Tar and Weavile who are the bane of any psychic pokemon.

Hope this helped.
 
well on the terms of HP ice, i have no problem of throwing in cressalia, (neutral is just not enough) metagross, bronzong, infurnape jirachi, starmie, wobbuffet. (my main team has 3 of these Ice is what i like when i use BP) and yes we have physical bugs, but heracross will be spotted as a threat on the listed pokes and either will be covered or it will switch away same with rhyperior (does 52% to wobbuffet with megahorn).
I just feel people do focus a lot on the dragons rather the broad view of the metagame. i would comapre to ice but i feel everyone knows what ice can do (dragons, flying, grass) but not so bug in terms of the OU's.
 
I think you are forgetting that STAB Thunderbolt/Surf/Ice Beam/Flamethrower does more than HP Bug or whatever x2 SE. Hence, people will only use HP to hit stuff they can't hit neutral. Therefore, Zapdos uses HP Ice to hit grassers and dragons.

HP Ice is so common because Garchomp is so common.
 
I've used a HP flying specs zapdos on SB a while ago and it did pretty wel. Surprised a LOT of celebi's and I believe it still had a 2HKO on garchomp (not sure though) maybe HP ice is better but in the case of zapdos who has no special flying STAB it was pretty good IMO.
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
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How about... uh, no. Hidden Powers are picked to get coverage in a limited movepool, so they depend on the user. Electrics use Ice since that's like BoltBeam. HP Bug also doesn't hurt any used Ground type in the game...

HP depends on the user, so you can't say "why doesn't every pokemon use Bug"... that being said Jirachi likes it.
 
Chris is me has it right. While HP Bug has it's merits, Hp Ice offers significantly better coverage and hits not only Garchomp but Salamence, Gliscor, Hippowodon, Donphan, basically anything that is weak to it. Since these pokemon with massive Ice weaks are usually threatening sweepers, it makes sense.

Okay; your statement that 16 hidden powers are possible may be true, but how many of them are useful? Hp Poison, Psychic and Steel are never used because they are poor attacking types. Hp Dragon would be good if it had more than base 70 power behind it. In addition, anything that would use HP water is better off using Hp Grass/Ice. Hp Ghost is a poor choice, as any pokemon that has good enough special attack to use it probably would use Shadow Ball anyway. Hp Dark is the same way.

tl;dr: Only 9 hidden powers are really worth considering, and they are:

Hp Grass
Hp Fire
Hp Ice
Hp Ftg
Hp Electric
Hp Rock
Hp Ground
Hp Flying
Hp Bug

Even half of these are debateable. Hp Flying would only be used on Heracross/Breloom, Hp Ground would only be used on Electrics and Heatran.

HP Bug really suffers in coverage on pokemon it isn't super effective on. If it isn't hitting super effective, it isn't useful, most of the time.

Last time I checked, Heracross is still used, and he is the most powerful bug move user.

Its a situational use.
 
Specs Starmie would be a good user of Hp Bug (at times not as good as HP Fighting but still it hits Celebi, Cresselia, Weavile hard, making them think again about coming in). Hp Bug allows you to run max speed as well while maintaining the highest power possible.
Surf would do more to Cresselia and Weavile than HP Bug, so it's still not the best choice.

If I ever had a reason to use HP Bug, it would be if my team is completely Celebi-weak [Or... Cacturne-weak]. If I was afraid of Tyranitar, I'd use HP Fighting to hit Weavile harder anyway, so yeah.
 
Why would starmie want HP bug?
STAB Surf hits Cresselia and Weavile for 142.5 (95*1.5) vs 140 (70*2 SE)... so it's all of Celebi, which only really emphasizes the point that HP is only good if you're trying to hit a 4x. Otherwise your base STAB moves are going to be better.
 
The problem is some of the things you listed that are weak to HP Bug are not that threatening. (Cress, Abomasnow, Alakazam, Azelf, Starmie, Breloom)
These can all be stopped fairly easily by any solid team.

However, let's look at some of the ice weaks.
Garchomp (this has so many possible sets, very unpredictable and powerful)
Salamence (Mixmence or DD Mence or Specs Mence?)
Gliscor (Bye bye Heracross counter)
Hippowdon
Donphan

3 of these pokes are 4x weak. Garchomp and Salamence are both dangerous pokemon that can run multiple sets. Bug is certainly useful, but, in my opinion, not as useful as Ice.
 
People really should use hp rock on things more. It's great for UU pokes. Kills bugs, flyers, rocks, and fire types. That's pretty good coverage on something say... a grass type pokemon? Hp rock gets rid of pinsir, scyther, torkoal/magcargo, and more stronger UU pokes. Hp rock is WAY better than people think.
 
I think it really all depends on the calcs...

For example, I was skeptical at first when I heard about Hp Rock Infernape, but then I thought about what I always used to wall Infernape, Salamence, Dragonite and Gyarados.

When considering non-traditional hidden powers, the criterea should be,

1) Be able to hit key threat X4 super effective if your stab is neutral, I think one of the above posters alluded to this, most stabed attacks will hit harder then x2 super effective attacks.

2) Tiers should be considered, electric is obviously overshadowed by grass in UU for example.

3) Not necessary, but unique hidden powers are best for nailing counters.

However, I don't think in OU the unique hidden power options are that bountiful. The only way I could see rock becoming way more popular is if Chomp got tossed into Ubers. Then the most dangerous dragons would be hit by Rock.
 

Chou Toshio

Over9000
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As a breeder I've spent a lot of time breeding IVs for these different hidden powers (which is quite a task), and feel a certain connection with them. In any case, I think I have some things to say about them.

The ones I (and others) breed the most are as follows (not in any order):
-Ice
-Fire
-Electric
-Grass
-Fighting
-Ground

As some have said, many of these are bred for coverage, and to hit specific pokemon. Here's my opinions (more like observations) on them:


Hidden Power Ice:

Number 1 bred for hidden power, and for good reason. Outside of hitting the dragons and gliscor for 4x super effective, it has amazing coverage with a variety of other attacking types. Electric/Ice, Ground/Ice, Fighting/Ice, and others. The pokemon we breed it onto are:

Electric Types: Are notorious for generally having terrible coverage, especially since none of them outside of lanturn learn ice beam. Ice is the best type coverage for their stab, and most of them are special attackers, so as a result HP ice is highly desirable on almost any electric type.

Grass Types: Grass is walled by some notable types, including dragon, flying and other grass pokemon. While Ice doesn't provide perfect
coverage (walled by fire) it goes a long way. None of them outside of ludicolo learn ice beam.

Fire Types: Fire, like grass, does not gain perfect coverage with hp ice, but ice helps against the dragon types who would resist you. In general, fire types can make use of a lot of different hidden power due to lack of synergy in coverage with other types, but ice is a stand out on many notable ones:
Infernape: Gets grass knot and thunder punch, making grass and electric HP less desirable. STAB fighting makes hp ground for heatran not-so-attractive.
Heatran: Gets Earth Power. Electric and Grass are also sought after, but overall ice is most valuable for having great coverage with Earth Power.

Other pokemon like Lucario and Togekiss like Ice just because it hits very notable threats. Gengar, and even dugtrio can use it to pick up valuable revenge kills on the 4x weaks. There has been some discussion of even running HP ice on heracross, though overall not a great plan. In conclusion though, ice is an amazing attacking type, and HP ice is desired for good reason.


Hidden Power Fire

Hits steel types, notably scizor foretress for 4x effective. Considering steel's amazing resistances, and fire being the only consistant weakness on most of the OU steel types (metagross, skarmory, bronzong, scizor, forry), fire is desirable on pokemon who would be walled by them. The saying, "Anything physical wants a little bit of fire."

Grass Types, again, suffer from having a great attacking type with crappy synergy with other types. Fire is the most popular option next to ice because of its ability to hit bugs, steels and other grass types, all of whom would wall you normally. On a side, many grass types like being in the sun, making hp fire even more attractive for getting its boost.

Dragon types generally have access to flamethrower and fireblast, but Latias and Latios have some desire for hidden power fire.

Most physical attackers like tyranitar and machamp already have access to fire attacks though, so the above metioned grass types are the most common users.


Hidden Power Electric

hits Gyarados, and other bulky water types (except swampert). There are very few special attacking ice types that don't get thunderbolt and see a lot of play (because let's face it, ice is a crappy defensive type). In the end, electic is for pokes who really need to hit water types. Generally these are:

Water types themselves. Kingdra, Vaporeon, Milotic, etc. are the pokemon most sought with hidden power electric. In a mirror battle between water types, carrying a good hidden power can be important, especially when most water types can't get grass or electric attacks, and those that can usually abuse them *starmie*cough*

Fire Types can sometimes make use of it, but many of them already learn electric attacks on their own. Otherwise, electric provides pretty unsatisfactory coverage with fire.

Hidden Power Grass

Like Electric, it's popular with water types to hit other water types. Swampert and Gyarados existing together in the same metagame is really annoying, but their dual presence creates a need for a type of guessing game about which power to go with.

Electric types, also like HP grass almost as much as ice, if only because it can be a nasty surprise for swampert.

Some rock/ground types like Tyranitar and Nidoking might want to stow away some IVs for Hidden Power Grass.

In UU, grass is generally more useful than electric, though mantine's dual presence alongside gastrodon and friends creates a similar situation in UU regarding water types.


Fighting

Hits Dark types hard. Can also provide great coverage with other common attacking types like ghost, dark and ice. As a result, these are the types of pokemon who use hp fighting the most.

Psychic types-- who don't get focus blast, and even ones that do, like HP fighting for coverage.

Ghost types-- pretty much same story as psychic types. For both, being able to somehow handle weavile and ttar is a huge boon.

dark types-- not incredibly common, but can be useful on some, notably houndoom.

Bug Types-- oddly, things like venomoth can use it really well.

Ice Types-- Some of them, like Glaceon, like this.

As a weird aside, Rotom can make good use ice or fighting-- it can use the bolt-beam or ghost-fighting combos to good effect.


Hidden Power Ground

Hits heatran for 4x, and empoleon for 2x. This is something important to note for Specsmence.

Electric types also like to sometimes run HP ground to get a jump on their fellow ground types. It's kind of a gimmick over coverage, but it can work really well sometimes.

Bugs, such as venomoth, butterfree and Yanmega can also use them to achieve some very nice coverage.

Grass types can again, use this to take care of fire types (read: heatran), but grass/ground has TERRIBLE coverage (poor torterra).

Special attacking ice types like Lapras, Jinx, Glaceon, like this.

Interesting aside, Frosslas, with the aid of HP, can use any of the following: bolt beam, ice-ground, ghost-fight, ice-fight, basically getting amazing coverage with any 2, but can even run 3. Yeah, frosslas is cool.


The others, don't come in much demand.

A word to the OP: The only pokemon HP bug hits for 4x is Celebi, and considering Celebi's plethora of common exploitable weaknesses, hp bug is not coming in much use. Grass has 5 weaknesses. As for psychic and dark types, dark, ghost and fighting attacks are everywhere. HP bug has very little going for it in reality, and lacks synergy with more common attacking types.
 

gec

pharos
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resistance
Gyarados x0.5
tentacruel x0.5
skarmory x0.25
heracross x0.5
heatran x0.25
gengar x0.5

Lucario? Dragonite? Salamence? Dusknoir? Forretress? Gliscor? Infernape? Machamp? Magnezone? Scizor? Togekiss? Yanmega? Zapdos?

That's just scratching OU.
 
Yeah I think Bug might have been trendy in Advance but not 4th gen. One thing that should be noted is that Hp Grass in OU is imo, nearly extinct. Basically it's there for one pokemon, Swampert, which is being pretty much condemned by the community recently. So I think electric is really the way to go in OU now.

The question that beacons is will the fall of swampert lead to the rise of Electivire?

Also I'm really liking Lanturn in UU! Water, electric, grass, and ice? Somebody want to pass me a nasty plot?
 

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