VGC Ho-oh no! Anything but Ray-Ogre

[hublo]

Wonderful picture isn't it? I while ago I was trying Ho-oh in the format and I was positively impressed by it's good bulk and STABs. In the team I used to have a defensive set with sitrus berry, but considering Landorus and physical P-don were giving me trouble I decided to give a shot to a more offensive charti berry set. I caught myself an adamant Ho-oh a while back in my omega ruby and it would be cool to use it in-game instead of the legendaries I got from Theorymon's thread.

I built this team following the advice in the teambuilding framework thread, which was helpful to quickly get together each team member. the core Ho-oh+P-don was my starting point. Salamence and ferrothorn were picked because they can check respectively groudon and kyogre; also salamence improves the matchup vs rayquaza. Kangaskhan was picked for fake out support and it's never a wrong choice, it's a really good pokemon in this format. The last pick was thundurus which offers support in the form of prankster taunt+twave and thunderbolt to deal with annoying support pokemon (togekiss, crobat, talonflame, etc.)

Team description

Ho-Oh @ Charti Berry
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 132 HP / 108 Atk / 28 Def / 4 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Tailwind
- Protect​

The job of this Ho-oh is to get off a tailwind first turn if needed (thanks to fake out), and chunk stuff to bring some pokemon in range of the attacks of its teammates. Sacred fire has a lovely burn chance and brave bird offers good coverage. Protect allows it stay on the field a little longer and it doesn't have the bulk to afford running recover.

The EV spread allows it to do this:

• 252+ SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-W Ice Beam vs. 132 HP / 4 SpD Ho-Oh: 72-85 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  
• 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Rock Slide vs. 132 HP / 28 Def Charti Berry Ho-Oh: 94-112 (47.4 - 56.5%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO

This means that Ho-oh can take both hits and retaliate. It is designed to take on gravity spam teams with the combo groudon+scarf kyurem-white; I couldn't think of other useful benchmarks (outside turning -1 mence double edge into a 3hko maybe) without cutting too much the atk investiment.
The speed investiment allows it to outspeed smeargle.

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Level: 50
EVs: 156 HP / 196 Atk / 4 Def / 116 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Overheat
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Slide
- Protect​

Next comes groudon. Precipe blades is the move you want to spam, rock slide offers good coverage and overheat over fire punch to surprise landorus. The EV spread is fairly simple and allows it to do the following:

• 252 SpA Primal Groudon Earth Power vs. 156 HP / 116 SpD Primal Groudon: 164-194 (84.1 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  
• 4 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 156 HP / 4 Def Primal Groudon: 81-96 (41.5 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252 SpA Aerilate Mega Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 156 HP / 116 SpD Primal Groudon: 67-81 (34.3 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

(maybe the last two are not very meaningful because the combination overheat+rock slide has only about 38% to 2HKO naive mence, but at least this spread forces the opponent to double target groudon if the foe's salamence is running the set tailwind/double edge/tailwind/protect, and you can capitalize on this)
The speed EVs are for standard speedcreeping; the rest goes into atk.

main reason why I'm running overheat: 0- SpA Primal Groudon Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T in Harsh Sunshine: 169-199 (102.4 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
- Protect
- Leech Seed​

​

Ferrothorn is chosen to improve the matchup vs kyogre. Dual STABs are useful in the meta, leech seed gives a lot of staying power. Not really much to say because I don't pick it for most of my battles
The EV spread does the following:

• 192 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 170-204 (96.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
• 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60+ SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 76-90 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerilate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Double-Edge
- Draco Meteor
- Hyper Voice
- Protect
​

Salamence is a top threat in this meta and for good reasons. Aerilate allows it to go mixed to better deal with the primals. Double edge packs quite a punch with aerilate+STAB alone. Hyper voice is the most spammable move on the set, nice for getting spread damage while draco hits groudon really hard and the other dragons in the tier.

The EV spread is self-exaplanatory.

Kangaskhan-Mega @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 76 Def / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Low Kick
- Sucker Punch​

Kangaskhan is good for fake out support and she pressures some teams really hard in the lead matchup. Fake out is for support, double edge because I want the power, low kick because we have no time to gather attack boosts with PuP and sucker punch to keep ghosts at bay and is nice priority.
Inner focus is good in mirror lead matchups.

The EV spread allows her to take low kick from jolly kangaskhan in mega form; the other EVs were dumped into atk firs and then in speed.

Thundurus @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
- Protect
​

Last but least we have sash thundurus. Thundurus+kangaskhan was the biggest middle finger to smeargle I could think, I had to use it. T-bolt because we fear no groudon, t-wave is really nice vs xerno and other fast threats, taunt is the move I want the most in this teamslot, and protect to prevent the sash being broken from double targeting/fake out.

The EV spread is a brainless 4/252/252.

other options​

I toyed with sashed gengar for a while but as soon as a lead smeargle got an evasion/speed boost from moody first turn it was literally gg, really frustrating.

threats
​

landorus, primal groudon: rock slide is the weakness of this team and both pokemon are solid users of the move.
ray+ogre: counterteam at its finest. I literally have to get right every 50/50 to win.

​

importable

Ho-Oh @ Charti Berry
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 132 HP / 108 Atk / 28 Def / 4 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Tailwind
- Protect

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Level: 50
EVs: 156 HP / 196 Atk / 4 Def / 116 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Overheat
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Slide
- Protect

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
- Protect
- Leech Seed

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerilate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Double-Edge
- Draco Meteor
- Hyper Voice
- Protect

Kangaskhan-Mega @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 76 Def / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Low Kick
- Sucker Punch

Thundurus @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
- Protect

 

[Steven Stone]

Yo this is a really good team! Can't really improve much from here, all the Pokemon seem to be unreplaceable. Just minor changes can be made. For example, try making Kyogre's Water Spout a 3HKO with the lefties recovery. Needless to say it may increase the OHKO chances vs more defensive Primal Kyogre, your Ferrothorn can survive them atm even w/o lefties, which kinda makes them not as useful (but keep it as it is imo, since Super Fang support is annoying af for that spread. TRUST ME)

Other minor changes include Swagger > Protect on thundy and whatnot, but honestly this team is good as it is. Keep up the good work!

Btw, don't you have like, a literal counter for Ray Ogre core? I mean, Ferro + Mence may help beating those 2 fairly easily, although mindgames are crucial, needing to call every Protect and switch, and having to guess if the rayquaza carries a fire move.

 

[GradeAGarchomp]

hi man, great team, there's really only one thing that you might want to consider and that's Expert Belt on Ferrothorn. even though super fang may be a bit annoying i think that the ability to ohko almost any kyogre variant is quite beneficial. but yeah awesome team, hope you continue to make more like this in the future.

 

[hublo]

First of all thanks everybody for the positive feedback! Glad that someone likes my squad.

I was recently trying to figure out some good EV spreads for ferrothorn. 244 HP / 164 Atk / 100 SpDef with brave nature is 3HKOed by water spout factoring leftovers. I realized I could still give sitrus berry to one of my pokemon and ferrothorn seemed a good candidate. I was trying to hit some other benchmarks with sitrus like taking -2 LO Rayquaza overheat+kyogre water spout/origin pulse; I'm not really really sure if the following spreads are worthwhile because facing a -2 rayquaza involves some tryhard plays and because probably ferrothorn gets more HP back with leftovers in the long run, but I'll post them for the sake of it.

252 HP /228 SpDef Sassy takes -2 overheat+water spout with the sitrus; 252 HP /108 SpDef Sassy takes -2 overheat+origin pulse with the sitrus.

Steven Stone you're right saying that mence+ferro are good against ray-ogre, the only problem is that I need to preserve these two carefully because the rest of the team can't do much in that matchup :/. Protect is the only option I considered on thundy to lead more safely with it, but swagger sounds nice; maybe I could swap offensive thundurus to a bulky set...

 

[GradeAGarchomp]

the slight problem with those ferro spreads (especially the 228 spdef sassy one) is that they seriously lack offensive presence; since kyogre is so troublesome to that restricted core alone, you want both of your checks to be able to dispatch it as quickly as possible. plus, the one you have now is great and it accomplishes what you need it to.


here are some examples of how much power you lose with your spreads:

28 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 100 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 116-140 (61.7 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

148 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 100 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 134-158 (71.2 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196 Atk Expert Belt Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 100 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 166-197 (88.2 - 104.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

ferro even struggles against -2 overheat; it does 86-103 (to the second spread) so if it gets the high roll you're toast :(

you may be able to come up with a more offensive sitrus spread specifically for like kyogre, but trying to do both really strains it for all its EVs.

 

[hublo]

the slight problem with those ferro spreads (especially the 228 spdef sassy one) is that they seriously lack offensive presence; since kyogre is so troublesome to that restricted core alone, you want both of your checks to be able to dispatch it as quickly as possible. plus, the one you have now is great and it accomplishes what you need it to.

Couldn't agree with you more. By the way the overheat calc were done with standard rayquaza, not mega! Reason being that if I force the mega on rayquaza and ferro faints I can potentially win the weather war with my groudon. If it chooses to not mega evolve I can hit kyogre for some damage.

 

[Draconid997]

Hey man, really like your team, glad our frameworks thread was able to help you out :)
Just going to try pointing a few things out that perhaps haven't been covered yet

Smaller Changes

I completely agree with the previous rates concerning ferrothorn.
Personally, I think you should go with either a bulky 244 HP / 164 Atk / 100 SpD Brave variant with leftovers, or a more offensive 252 HP / 204 Atk / 52 SpD Brave variant with expert belt, as i will try to explain.
Let's just look at this from the perspective of usage stats:
Most primal kyogre do not run modest 252 special attack (please correct me if this isn't the case), instead they are more likely to be inclined to run either a bulky modest spread with around ~76 SpA to OHKO 4 HP Kangaskhan with water spout, or a fast offensive timid spread with a large SpA investment, say 252 SpA. 76+ SpA (modest) is actually one point less than timid 252 SpA, so i would use this as a typical benchmark to hit with a defensive EV spread for water spout.
The first spread i mentioned, as you know, allows ferrothorn to survive 3 max SpA kyogre water spouts, which is a brilliant spread for a more bulky offensive playstyle
However if you want to go down the more offensive route, i would strongly recommend you try out the second spread, which focuses a LOT on offence, which i think you may enjoy, but still survives 3 water spouts from your typical bulky kyogre (remember this is only one point less in SpA than timid 252):

• 76+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 76-90 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 204+ Atk Expert Belt Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Primal Kyogre: 202-240 (97.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
• (252+ Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Primal Kyogre: 174-206 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
• 204+ Atk Expert Belt Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 274-324 (135.6 - 160.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 204+ Atk Expert Belt Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 172 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 262-312 (117.4 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• -1 204+ Atk Expert Belt Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 182-216 (90 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerilate
Level: 50
EVs: 20 HP / 4 Atk / 20 Def / 212 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Double-Edge
- Draco Meteor
- Hyper Voice
- Protect

As Steven Stone rightly said, salamence and ferrothorn are two of your team's biggest checks to RayOgre teams, and i thought i might give this spread to you to try out. It's just an extention of the previous 4/252/252 spread but is a little more optimised for the RayOgre matchup. One of Rayquaza's most common partners is weavile, who can outspeed and do a significant amount of damage to your typical salamence. What this spread does is survive an icicle crash from a -1 non-life orb weavile, which just allows you to lead much more safely against RayOgre.

• -1 252 Atk Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 20 HP / 20 Def Mega Salamence: 144-172 (83.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 212 SpA Mega Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 204-242 (112.7 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Rock Slide vs. 20 HP / 20 Def Mega Salamence: 72-86 (41.6 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• -1 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Rock Slide vs. 20 HP / 20 Def Mega Salamence: 46-56 (26.5 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Kangaskhan-Mega @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 188 Atk / 76 Def / 4 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 172 Atk / 76 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Low Kick
- Sucker Punch

Again, pretty minor stuff. Your current spread will speed tie with neutral 252 speed base 90s in mega form which isn't exactly great, so these are some other spreads that you could try out. Both spreads survive a low kick from opposing kang. The first spread outspeeds max speed smeargle in non-mega form, allowing you to use fake out on smeargle first so kang can provide a partner with better fake out support. However i find that this spread relies heavily on speed control to be effective. The second spread maximizes speed, which means it doesn't have to rely on speed control, which is preferable imo. Also the first spread will underspeed either 252 neutral or 252 positive base 90's in non mega form (it has base 90 speed), which is also something the second spread can afford not to worry about.

If you're happy with the restricted legends' spreads, then that's absolutely fine, only i would suggest a faster groudon (i.e not depending on the TW set up), but it's totally up to you. A fast groudon+thundurus lead will mean you have a real solid go-to option versus big 6 which is pretty handy, although you would want something to check groudon in the back, like ho-oh. A simple 12/236/4/x/4/252 spread will do for groudon, surviving an earthquake form banded adamant landorus-t with the rest in speed and attack.

Larger Changes

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One big weakness your team has is Yveltal and double genies, and weavile can most certainly help you out here. It provides fake out support, filling the support role that kangaskhan filled (still following the framework) whilst giving you vital coverage vs the aforementioned mons.
Also this gives you the freedom of bringing salamence with fake out support, which means you can perhaps run tailwind over hyper voice (just looking at some other options here, nothing too important).
Salamence+Weavile will mean you can lead pretty safely versus Rayquaza, but it will again be difficult to deal with kyogre, necessitating stuff like groudon or ferrothorn in the back for kyogre.
Weavile is also incredibly useful for the gravity spam matchup, doing a hell of a lot of damage to meowstic and providing fake out pressure for any sort of set up involved.
There are two paths you could take if you choose weavile, as sash conflicts with thundurus so you either run LO weavile with sash thundurus or sash weavile with sitrus/LO etc thundurus (or a variation depending on personal preference). Here are the sample sets:

Weavile @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash
- Feint

Item choice is totally up to you, this is a great support set that bodes well with your team.

Sitrus Berry Thundurus

Thundurus @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 180 HP / 60 Def / 4 SpA / 164 SpD / 100 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
- Protect

Total credit to SamVGC here, this is an awesome sitrus thundurus set that achieves the following benchmarks:

• Outspeeds positive 252 speed base 90's by 2 points, therefore anything that is designed to outspeed 252+ speed base 90s by 1 is now negligible
• 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 180 HP / 164 SpD Thundurus: 144-170 (81.3 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
• 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 180 HP / 164 SpD Thundurus in Heavy Rain: 148-175 (83.6 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
• (Water spout is a 2HKO after taking thunderbolt damage)
• 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 180 HP / 60 Def Thundurus: 184-218 (103.9 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
• 252 Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 180 HP / 60 Def Thundurus: 80-94 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
• +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Dazzling Gleam vs. 180 HP / 164 SpD Thundurus: 150-177 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Or you could use sash if you wanted, both are great sets :)

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This one is completely up to you, but a change from Ho-Oh to kyogre would really suit this team imo. By complete coincidence, a team of kyogre/groudon/thundurus/salamence/weavile/ferrothorn almost exactly matches Gavin Michael's current double primal team (except he uses amoonguss>ferrothorn i think but hey they're pretty similar). In fact, I'm running this exact composition as well so i just want to share my gameplans for typical matches vs common archetypes so that you can match them up with yours just to compare (i'm going to highlight matchups that kyogre may have an advantage over Ho-Oh in):

Big 6 - (Fast) Groudon Thundurus (Kyogre Ferrothorn) => Kyogre doesn't have to worry about rock slide groudon, although precipice blades does hurt a lot, so this one's very debatable and ultimately up to you
RayOgre - Weavile Salamence (Ferrothorn/Groudon) => Same either way
Double Primal - Salamence Thundurus (Kyogre Ferrothorn/Groudon) => Having the ability to bring rain whenever you want is definitely a bonus here
Yveltal Groudon - Weavile Salamence (Kyogre Groudon) => I would say kyogre has the better matchup to yveltal than Ho-Oh, given its ice beam coverage. Plus, the ability to bring rain is nice vs this archetype
Dialga Kyogre - Groudon Weavile (Thundurus Ferrothorn) => This team doesn't have the greatest options vs the Dialga Kyogre core, but it fares well against its typical teammates (landorus, thundurus, ferrothorn, salamence etc), a great example of what weavile can achieve on similar archetypes
Xerneas Kyogre - Thundurus Weavile/Groudon (Groudon/Kyogre Ferrothorn) => Really hate this matchup personally, xerneas kyogre typically covers all bases with the supporting cast, making it really difficult to play against. Weavile is mainly for stuff like mega salamence and double genies, if they happen to be on the team
Ho-Oh Groudon - Groudon Weavile (Salamence Kyogre) => Kyogre is definitely better off versus opposing Ho-Oh Groudon, as all you need to do is remove the kyogre checks (e.g ferrothorn, thundurus) and sweep with kyogre, something that ho-oh can not do by itself

So with all that in mind, here is a sample kyogre set:

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 76 SpA / 44 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Scald / Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Protect

A relatively standard looking bulky kyogre spread. If my math is right, this should be able to take a power whip from max attack ferrothorn most of the time, as well as take 3 dazzling gleams from a +2 xerneas most of the time as well (plus grass knot), with the rest in SpA and Speed, so that it can OHKO kangaskhan with water spout and speed creep neutral base 90s. Plus the numbers are nice and round which is nice. Pretty standard moves, water spout / scald are the 2 chosen water moves which offer a lot of coverage defensively (burn chance) as well as offensively (i.e at low health). Ice beam is standard coverage for kyogre, hitting loads of ice-weak mons for good damage. Origin pulse is also nice here, although thunder is a definite no for double primal teams (unless you want to risk the ridiculously low accuracy in sun).

So that's the rate! Hope I helped, and best of luck with your team :D

EDIT: Oops, forgot the importable

Here's the importable for the double primal variant, and just swap kyogre for ho-oh if you don't want to run it:

http://pastebin.com/iXZGTKNX