Infernape (Subsalac Blaze Sweeper)

[muna]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/infernape

[SET]
name: SubSalac Blaze Sweeper
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Nasty Plot
move 3: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
move 4: Focus Blast
item: Salac Berry
ability: Blaze
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
ivs: 30 HP

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Infernape's great ability, Blaze, is often overlooked, but can provide a huge 50% boost in Fire-type moves once Infernape's HP drops below 1/3. This set works like this: first, come in after one of your own Pokémon faints to avoid taking any unwanted damage. Then, as the opponent switches out, use Substitute. If the opponent is slower than you or has no priority moves, use Nasty Plot while they destroy your Substitute. Once you have used Substitute 3 times and have your HP down to 25%, with Blaze and Salac Berry activated and a Nasty Plot boost to go along with it, you have created an incredibly powerful and fearsome sweeper in Infernape.</p>

<p>Substitute and Nasty Plot are staples on this set. Whether to use Fire Blast or Flamethrower comes down to whether you are willing to risk the extra power for slightly less accuracy. Fire Blast is usually the more popular choice, but considering that a single miss will almost always mean the end of Infernape, the more reliable Flamethrower is always a viable option. Focus Blast is your final move, letting you deal with Heatran, Blissey, and Snorlax - the only 3 OU Pokémon that a Nasty Plot and Blaze boosted Flamethrower cannot make quick work of.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The power of a Nasty Plot and Blaze boosted STAB Fire Blast cannot be underestimated. After a single Nasty Plot with Blaze activated, Fire Blast will 2HKO max HP / Max SpD Blissey about half of the time. Flamethrower will always 3HKO the same Blissey under the same circumstances. You would, of course, use Close Combat rather than Fire Blast on Blissey, but this is a testament to this set's power. With only two moves to provide coverage, you may find yourself having to use resisted moves against the opponent's Pokémon. The pure power of this set, however, lets you overcome these resistances and come up on top against Pokémon who may, at first glance, seem to shut this set down. Fire Blast always gets a 2HKO on Calm Mind Latias. If you take Stealth Rock into account, you will always OHKO 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence. Fire Blast is a 2HKO on Bulky Gyarados after 3 Substitutes, and most Gyarados will anticipate you switching and Dragon Dance on their first turn, allowing you to still KO them.</p>

<p>Rapid Spin support is not only recommended, but nearly essential. Stealth Rock would leave you at a significantly weaker 12.5% of your health after 3 Substitutes rather than 25%. In this regard, Starmie complements Infernape excellently. You also must be sure to make your HP divisible by 4 so that the Salac Berry activates after 3 Substitutes with you at 25% health rather than after 4 with you at 1% health. Your HP IV should be ideally 30, but 26, 22, 18, 14, 10, 6, and 2 also work. If your HP IV is not one of these numbers, then take the appropriate amount of EVs needed from your Attack.</p>

<p>Nearly all Pokémon are OHKOed or 2HKOed at the hands of this late-game sweeper. The only Pokémon who can truly get in your way are priority move users. Infernape has a 4x resistance to Ice Shard and Bullet punch, but that doesn't stop Pokémon from finishing it off at 25% HP. If you fear Scizor ending your sweep, then 56 HP EVs will allow you to always survive a non-Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch after 3 Substitutes.</p>

<p>With the abundance of priority move users, most notably Scizor, in today's metagame, Subsalac sets tend to be less common. However, given proper support, you can use this Infernape and it's element of surprise to destroy the opposition. Try to avoid using this Infernape until all of the opponent's Pokémon are revealed, and you can, with some degree of certainty, say that there are no priority move users still on the opposing team. This cannot be stressed enough because unlike most Pokémon, you will not be able to switch Subsalac Infernape out as soon as an opponent's counter comes in without ruining its sweep. This Infernape may have a hufe weakness to what is currently the most common Pokmon in OU, but once Scizor is out of play, Infernape can easily decimate a team.</p>

 

[Toaster]

<p>The power of a Nasty Plot, Blaze, STAB, and Fire Blast cannot be underestimated. After [unneeded word] a single Nasty Plot with Blaze activated, Fire Blast will 2HKO max HP / Max SpD Blissey about half of the time. Flamethrower will always 3HKO the same Blissey under the same circumstances. You would, of course, use Close Combat rather than Fire Blast on Blissey, but this is a testament to this set's power. With only two moves to provide coverage, you may find yourself having to use resisted moves against the opponent's Pokemon. The pure power of this set, however, lets you overcome these resistances and come up ahead against Pokemon that may, at first glance, seem to shut this set down. Fire Blast also always gets a 2HKO on Calm Mind Latias(that doesn't stop Latias from setting up and recover the damage in the process. try rewording it). If you take Stealth Rocks into account, you will always OHKO 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence. Fire Blast is a 2HKO on Bulky Gyarados after 3 Substitutes and most Gyarados will anticipate you switching and Dragon Dance on their first turn, allowing you to still KO them.</p>

Will do a full check later.

Also I don't see how this set is working, what OHKOs or 2HKOs does it get that the regular nasty plot set doesn't? Most of the advantages you explained in your analysis are not aiding in this. for example, You said that you could 2HKO bulky gyara after three substitutes. But after three substitutes Gyarados can still survive a Fire Blast and KO you. You also said that you could always 2HKO Calm Mind Latias after you get the Blaze + Fire Blast boost. But as I said, that doesn't stop Latias from setting up Calm Minds and thus avoid the 2HKO.

Overall I don't think this would deserve a spot in the analysis.

 

[Fuzznip]

I'm really doubting the effectiveness of this set to be completely honest. I don't see Infernape being close to a decent SubSalac sweeper for several reasons. Allow me to explain why.

1) Infernape is affected by weather effects, most notably sandstorm. Sandstorm is very common in the OU metagame, as Tyranitar is everywhere. It is used on approximately 22% of teams. Hippowdon and Abomasnow, although much rarer than Tyranitar, have a combined percent usage of 6%. In total, Infernape will be up against either one of these threats 28% of the time (do note that these statistics are taken from the January stats, so things might have changed). Basically, the weather effects will greatly hinder, if not completely shut down, the Substitute + Salac Berry combination.

2) There's a lot of priority being thrown around in OU, especially coming from Scizor. Even though Infernape is resistant to this attack, it will still heavy amounts of damage (upwards of 30%), so it can be revenge killed quite easily. Scizor is also more common than Tyranitar, sitting at 28%.

3) The coverage you have between Fire and Fighting is not that bad, but not totally good either. You are unable to damage Dragon-types like Latias (who is a primary switch-in to Infernape) for high amounts of damage, meaning you can potentially be revenge killed if you are unable to achieve the right amount of Nasty Plot boosts. I hate the idea of going mixed on this as well because of Blissey. You are then unable to damage bulky Water-types like Vaporeon and Suicune because you are not running Focus Blast, so you ultimately lose to them. Nasty Plot is just helping out Fire Blast / Flamethrower in this case, and Close Combat is just a filler for Blissey so you don't get walled by it.

4) Infernape has better things to do than achieve a Salac Berry boost and try and score a sweep. First of all, Infernape is already quite fast and does not need any more Speed than what it has now. Its Speed is good sweeping material already. Secondly, Infernape is much more effective when running Nasty Plot + three attacks for the added coverage, helping it take down bulky Waters and the like. Heck, I would rather just use a standard four attack set to gain even more coverage. Infernape is already a wonderful late-game sweeper and this isn't going to help it do what it already does better.


Overall, I don't see this happening. I was never fond of any SubBerry set to be completely honest; I label them as gimmicks and "one-trick ponies". However, if the Pokemon using the SubBerry set actually has some sort of niche that makes it effective, such as SubPetaya Empoleon, then I would agree. Sorry, but Infernape should never be running anything like this in my opinion.

EDIT: Non-cherry-picked logs of this actually working might be nice.

 

[muna]

Will do a full check later.

Also I don't see how this set is working, what OHKOs or 2HKOs does it get that the regular nasty plot set doesn't? Most of the advantages you explained in your analysis are not aiding in this. for example, You said that you could 2HKO bulky gyara after three substitutes. But after three substitutes Gyarados can still survive a Fire Blast and KO you. You also said that you could always 2HKO Calm Mind Latias after you get the Blaze + Fire Blast boost. But as I said, that doesn't stop Latias from setting up Calm Minds and thus avoid the 2HKO.

Overall I don't think this would deserve a spot in the analysis.

Thank you for the corrections. And I believe you would usually be able to beat Gyarados because it would anticipate your switch and Dragon Dance. I understand this will not always happen, but there is always a chance. And as for Latias, even if Latias does use Calm Mind, you would still be able to 2HKO.

Keep in mind that this is how this Infernape responds to it's "counters". These are the Pokemon that resist your moves. Almost all Pokemon that I do not mention are OHKO'd by this Infernape.

I'm really doubting the effectiveness of this set to be completely honest. I don't see Infernape being close to a decent SubSalac sweeper for several reasons. Allow me to explain why.

1) Infernape is affected by weather effects, most notably sandstorm. Sandstorm is very common in the OU metagame, as Tyranitar is everywhere. It is used on approximately 22% of teams. Hippowdon and Abomasnow, although much rarer than Tyranitar, have a combined percent usage of 6%. In total, Infernape will be up against either one of these threats 28% of the time (do note that these statistics are taken from the January stats, so things might have changed). Basically, the weather effects will greatly hinder, if not completely shut down, the Substitute + Salac Berry combination.

2) There's a lot of priority being thrown around in OU, especially coming from Scizor. Even though Infernape is resistant to this attack, it will still heavy amounts of damage (upwards of 30%), so it can be revenge killed quite easily. Scizor is also more common than Tyranitar, sitting at 28%.

3) The coverage you have between Fire and Fighting is not that bad, but not totally good either. You are unable to damage Dragon-types like Latias (who is a primary switch-in to Infernape) for high amounts of damage, meaning you can potentially be revenge killed if you are unable to achieve the right amount of Nasty Plot boosts. I hate the idea of going mixed on this as well because of Blissey. You are then unable to damage bulky Water-types like Vaporeon and Suicune because you are not running Focus Blast, so you ultimately lose to them. Nasty Plot is just helping out Fire Blast / Flamethrower in this case, and Close Combat is just a filler for Blissey so you don't get walled by it.

4) Infernape has better things to do than achieve a Salac Berry boost and try and score a sweep. First of all, Infernape is already quite fast and does not need any more Speed than what it has now. Its Speed is good sweeping material already. Secondly, Infernape is much more effective when running Nasty Plot + three attacks for the added coverage, helping it take down bulky Waters and the like. Heck, I would rather just use a standard four attack set to gain even more coverage. Infernape is already a wonderful late-game sweeper and this isn't going to help it do what it already does better.


Overall, I don't see this happening. I was never fond of any SubBerry set to be completely honest; I label them as gimmicks and "one-trick ponies". Sorry, but Infernape should never be running anything like this in my opinion.

EDIT: Non-cherry-picked logs of this actually working might be nice.

1. I did notice this and it is an inconvinience, but I saw this as nothing more than that. It will throw off your HP, but if you carefully manage your substitutes, then you will be able to overcome this. This is completely valid and I see your point.

2. I mentioned that this is strictly a late-game sweeper. This is only to be used once all priority move users have been removed from the game. This is Infernape's biggest weakness. This is a weakness that all Sub-Salac sets share and no Pokemon is perfect or even remotely close (except maybe Arcreus?), but almost any Priority move will kill this Infernape.

3. Do you recommend that I place Focus Blast in the place of Close Combat? Looking at that now, it certainly seems worth it.

4. I understand that Infernape can do other things better, but few Pokemon can run SubSalac better in OU than Infernape. The only Pokemon that could have a case made for it is Heracross, but Infernape's greater speed allows it to beat even the fastest Revenge Killers.

I don't really like to label anything as gimmicky. Everything is viable to me in OU unless proven otherwise and in the testing I went through for this set, it certainly seemed viable, producing quite a few full team sweeps. I agree that this is a one-trick pony, but this is one amazing trick. With 5 Pokemon setting up the sweep, Infernape should have little trouble running over a team.

The "cherry-picked logs" are logs of all of the common OU Pokemon that resist both of my attacks. Anything not mentioned is OHKO'd with a Nasty Plot with Blaze activated, except maybe Tentracruel (never gone against it and forgot to run calcs). Since everything else is a OHKO, I decided it wasn't worth it to go by mentioning them one at a time.

 

[Fuzznip]

I meant to provide us with battle logs of this set working, but none of them being hand-picked so you only show the logs that make this set look good. I still don't believe this set is worth it at all, so providing proof of this working might make me, and others who think this is not viable, reconsider their decisions.

 

[The 1 and Only Lady Gaga]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/infernape

<p> Nearly all Pokemon suffer from either a OHKO or 2HKO at the hands of this late-game sweeper. The only Pokemon that can truly get in your way are priority move users. Infernape has a 4x (4x? Factual error here, it is only 2x, and Infernape will definitely take more than 25% from a Bullet Punch from Scizor.) resistance to Ice Shard and Bullet punch, but that doesn't stop them from finishing off an Infernape at 25% HP. If you fear Scizor ending your sweep, then 56 HP EVs will allow you to always survive a non-Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch after 3 substitutes.</p>

<p>This Infernape can only be used once in the game so make sure that you bring it in at the most opportune time. If you do bring it in at the right time, however, there is little the opponent can do to prevent a sweep.</p>

 

[muna]

I meant to provide us with battle logs of this set working, but none of them being hand-picked so you only show the logs that make this set look good. I still don't believe this set is worth it at all, so providing proof of this working might make me, and others who think this is not viable, reconsider their decisions.

I didn't save any of my own battle logs, but I will get some now.

I have been using this on a team with:
Lead Aerodactyl
Choice Band Dragonite
Rapid Spin Starmie
Choice Scarf Gengar
Steel Trapper Magnezone

Starmie gets red of Stealth Rock for me while while Gengar lures out Scizor so Magnezone can come in for the kill with it locked into Bullet Punch. By the same token, Choice Band Dragonite also lures out Scizor once I am locked onto Outrage. This whole team sis essentially based around removing Scizor. I will post some logs here right now.

 

[Snorlaxe]

With all the priority in OU I honestly don't see this set working, but I'll check it all the same :/ Your writing is basically all about hyping a set that definitely isn't as good as you claim it is, so I suggest you go back and add some more information about why this set doesn't work.

[SET]
name: SubSalac Blaze Sweeper
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Nasty Plot
move 3: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
move 4: Close Combat
item: Salac Berry
ability: Blaze
nature: Naive
evs: 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
ivs: 30 HP

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Infernape's great ability, Blaze, is often overlooked, but can provide a huge 50% boost in Fire-type moves once Infernape's HP drops below 1/3. This set works like this: first, come in after one of your own Pokemon faints to avoid taking any unwanted damage. Then, as the opponent switches out, use Substitute. If the opponent is slower than you and has no priority moves, use Nasty Plot while they destroy your Substitute. If they are faster, then use Substitute again. Once you have used Substitute 3 times and have your HP down to 25%, with Blaze activated, your Salac Berry used, and usually a Nasty Plot to go along with it, you have created an incredibly powerful and fearsome sweeper in Infernape.</p>

<p>Substitute and Nasty Plot are staples on the set. Whether to use Fire Blast or Flamethrower all comes down to whether you are willing to risk the extra power for slightly worse accuracy. Fire Blast is usually the more popular choice, but considering that a single miss will almost always mean the end of Infernape, the more reliable Flamethrower is always a viable option. Close Combat is your final move. This lets you deal with Heatran, Blissey, and Snorlax - the only 3 OU Pokemon that a Nasty Plot and Blaze boosted Flamethrower cannot make quick work of.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The power of a Nasty Plot and Blaze boosted STAB Fire Blast cannot be underestimated. After a single Nasty Plot with Blaze activated, Fire Blast will 2HKO max HP / Max SpD Blissey about half of the time. Flamethrower will always 3HKO the same Blissey under the same circumstances. You would, of course, use Close Combat rather than Fire Blast on Blissey, but this is a testament to this set's power. With only two moves to provide coverage, you may find yourself having to use resisted moves against the opponent's Pokemon. The pure power of this set, however, lets you overcome these resistances and come up on top against Pokemon who may, at first glance, seem to shut this set down. Fire Blast also always gets a 2HKO on Calm Mind Latias. If you take Stealth Rock into account, you will always OHKO 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence. Fire Blast is a 2HKO on Bulky Gyarados after 3 Substitutes, and most Gyarados will anticipate you switching and Dragon Dance on their first turn, allowing you to still KO them.</p>

<p>Rapid Spin support is not only recommended, but nearly essential. Stealth Rock would leave you at a significantly weaker 12.5% of your health after 3 Substitutes rather than 25%. This should not be a problem since Starmie complements Infernape excellently. You also must make sure to make your HP is divisible by 4 so that the Salac Berry activates after 3 Substitutes with you at 25% health rather than after 4 with you at 1% health. Your HP IV should be ideally 30, but 26, 22, 18, 14, 10, 6, and 2 also work. If your HP IV is not once of these numbers, then take the appropriate amount of EVs needed from your Attack.</p>

<p>Nearly all Pokemon suffer from either a OHKO or 2HKO at the hands of this late-game sweeper. The only Pokemon who can truly get in your way are priority move users. Infernape has a 4x resistance to Ice Shard and Bullet punch, but that doesn't stop them from finishing off an Infernape at 25% HP. If you fear Scizor ending your sweep, then 56 HP EVs will allow you to always survive a non-Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch after 3 Substitutes.</p>

<p>This Infernape can only be used once in the game, so make sure that you bring it in at the most opportune time. If you do bring it in at the right time, however, there is little the opponent can do to prevent a sweep.</p>

 

[Flamewheeler]

I'm having the same doubts as the previous posters- with scizor running around everywhere and other priority users, he is not going to get very far. Besides that, I don't see this set egtting passed Latias. Then you have things like Tyranitar and the less popular, Abamosnow and Hippowdon. I really don't see the viability in this and I don't even play very much OU. It needs WAY too much team support imo.

 

[supermarth64]

Confirming with the above posts. This set doesn't gain any additional kills, as a simple Nasty Plot Infernape will still be able to KO Mence and Gyarados with Fire Blast and Grass Knot. Furthermore, if Latias switches in the moment this comes in, you're either forced out because you Nasty Plotted, be forced to Sub down to your Salac Berry and hit it with an unboosted Fire Blast, or let it set up Calm Minds while you're stuck Nasty Plotting pointlessly because Latias will still beat you anyway.

Furthermore, without Grass Knot, Suicune can freely come in and set up Calm Minds against Infernape. Swampert can switch in on Substitute or Nasty Plot and Roar you out, while Vaporeon can continuously Surf and not really care about a Nasty Plotted Blaze Fire Blast.

 

[muna]

I aplogize for not posting the logs, but some important unexpected events got in my way. Bear in mind, that these are all examples as to how Infernape deals with it's counters. Almost any Pokemon that isn't mentioned suffers a OHKO. Being a late game sweeper, you should have time to remove Latias and Scizor.

 

[frogbandit]

changes in bold
removals in red

[SET]
name: SubSalac Blaze Sweeper
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Nasty Plot
move 3: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
move 4: Close Combat
item: Salac Berry
ability: Blaze
nature: Naive
evs: 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
ivs: 30 HP

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Infernape's great ability, Blaze, is often overlooked, but can provide a huge 50% boost in Fire-type moves once Infernape's HP drops below 1/3. This set works like this: first, come in after one of your own Pokémon faints to avoid taking any unwanted damage. Then, as the opponent switches out, use Substitute. If the opponent is slower than you or has no priority moves, use Nasty Plot while they destroy your Substitute. If they are faster, then use Substitute again. Once you have used Substitute 3 times and have your HP down to 25%, with Blaze and Salac Berry activated and a Nasty Plot boost to go along with it, you have created an incredibly powerful and fearsome sweeper in Infernape.</p>

<p>Substitute and Nasty Plot are staples on this set. Whether to use Fire Blast or Flamethrower all comes down to whether you are willing to risk the extra power for slightly less accuracy. Fire Blast is usually the more popular choice, but considering that a single miss will almost always mean the end of Infernape, the more reliable Flamethrower is always a viable option. Close Combat is your final move, letting you deal with Heatran, Blissey, and Snorlax - the only 3 OU Pokémon that a Nasty Plot and Blaze boosted Flamethrower cannot make quick work of.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The power of a Nasty Plot and Blaze boosted STAB Fire Blast cannot be underestimated. After a single Nasty Plot with Blaze activated, Fire Blast will 2HKO max HP / Max SpD Blissey about half of the time. Flamethrower will always 3HKO the same Blissey under the same circumstances. You would, of course, use Close Combat rather than Fire Blast on Blissey, but this is a testament to this set's power. With only two moves to provide coverage, you may find yourself having to use resisted moves against the opponent's Pokémon. The pure power of this set, however, lets you overcome these resistances and come up on top against Pokémon who may, at first glance, seem to shut this set down. Fire Blast also always gets a 2HKO on Calm Mind Latias. If you take Stealth Rock into account, you will always OHKO 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence. Fire Blast is a 2HKO on Bulky Gyarados after 3 Substitutes, and most Gyarados will anticipate you switching and Dragon Dance on their first turn, allowing you to still KO them.</p>

<p>Rapid Spin support is not only recommended, but nearly essential. Stealth Rock would leave you at a significantly weaker 12.5% of your health after 3 Substitutes rather than 25%. In this regard, Starmie complements Infernape excellently. You also must be sure to make your HP is divisible by 4 so that the Salac Berry activates after 3 Substitutes with you at 25% health rather than after 4 with you at 1% health. Your HP IV should be ideally 30, but 26, 22, 18, 14, 10, 6, and 2 also work. If your HP IV is not one of these numbers, then take the appropriate amount of EVs needed from your Attack.</p>

<p>Nearly all Pokémon are OHKOed or 2HKOed at the hands of this late-game sweeper. The only Pokémon who can truly get in your way are priority move users. Infernape has a 4x resistance to Ice Shard and Bullet punch, but that doesn't stop Pokémon from finishing it off at 25% HP. If you fear Scizor ending your sweep, then 56 HP EVs will allow you to always survive a non-Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch after 3 Substitutes.</p>

<p>This Infernape can only be used once in the game, so make sure that you bring it in at the most opportune time. If you do bring it in at the right time, however, there is little the opponent can do to prevent a sweep.</p>

This may be the most minuscule correction, but I think it should Pokémon, not Pokemon. Make sure to put the accent thing on the "e".

 

[muna]

Thank you for all the corrections. I also made the final paragraph make Infernape seem more vulnerable because upon looking at the analysis over again, I realized I made Infernape sounds like a god.

 

[Philip7086]

Sorry, but this set does not meet the standards of the Quality Control team. Infernape is not an effective Sub-Salac Pokemon for a few reasons:

1. It is too fragile, and will thus die to any priority attack at 25%
2. It takes damage from SS, Hail, and Toxic Spikes making the longevity of this set practically nonexistent.
3. Nape is already really fast and the extra speed boost hardly helps its sweep
4. This set hardly beats anything that other nape sets don't and just isn't worth it overall.

Anyways, if you want to try and provide logs to prove this set is actually effective, you're welcome to, but I just don't see it.

 

[Setsuna]

I completely doubt this set's effectiveness. But more importantly, I would like to request a Moderator to move this thread to Quality Control for further attention. Thanks.

 

[Philip7086]

This set actually failed the QC test a long time ago, but I just didn't have mods then. Locking.