Middle Cup ORAS

[skies]

also, we have a wonderful new banner by Maysoon n_n

and i updated the second post! o0

 

[Maysoon]

Wow, my banner! Hope you guys like it :]

Also, Rhydon is really powerful. Like this thing will break your Pokemon's spine in half strong.

Dancing Rhydon is scary, in fact at +2 it can OHKO pretty much the whole tier since we don't have a middle stage for Quag. If you don't want to boost it can just run CB or LO and punch wholes in every single mon in the tier. To give a quick example:

252 Atk Life Orb Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 68-82 (46.2 - 55.7%) -- 13.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

What? That's stupidly powerful. The worst part is that Rhydon's natural bulk lets it take a beating making it difficult to take care of. The only thing that makes Rhydon sad is its speed which can easily be patched up with Rock Polish, in fact RP 3 Attacks seems like the best set for cleaning. I don't want to go and say ban but I seriously think this thing can be S. Stupidly powerful, decent speed, nice bulk, great offensive typing and has a movepool that has everything it needs. Maybe something to take a look at, it really is impossible to switch into.

EDIT: Forgot to give Duslops +Def, still takes a huge hit making it a shaky switch in especially after rocks.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Wow, my banner! Hope you guys like it :]

Also, Rhydon is really powerful. Like this thing will break your Pokemon's spine in half strong.

Dancing Rhydon is scary, in fact at +2 it can OHKO pretty much the whole tier since we don't have a middle stage for Quag. If you don't want to boost it can just run CB or LO and punch wholes in every single mon in the tier. To give a quick example:

252 Atk Life Orb Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dusclops: 75-90 (51 - 61.2%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

What, that's stupidly powerful. The worst part is that Rhydon's natural bulk lets it take a beating making it difficult to take care of. The only thing that makes Rhydon sad is its speed which can easily be patched up with Rock Polish, in fact RP 3 Attacks seems like the best set for cleaning. I don't want to go and say ban but I seriously think this thing can be S. Stupidly powerful, decent speed, nice bulk, great offensive typing and has a movepool that has everything it needs. Maybe something to take a look at, it really is impossible to switch into.

adding on Double Dance is actually stupid, this thing is actually kind of easy to build around and it hardly needs any support as well, I can see this going to S

 

[Cheryl.]

I think Quilladin might be in for a rise because of its ability to completely stop non-flamethrower Combusken. It is also a great mon overall, and spiky shield and its ability are great.

Quilladin can't learn Spiky Shield, and Bulletproof doesn't stop Fire Blast.

 

[Maysoon]

I wanted to quickly point out that with Rhydon's RP 3 Attacks set you get to run Megahorn which destroys Vibrava

252 Atk Life Orb Rhydon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vibrava: 95-113 (60.5 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Threw]

lol I was about to make a post saying "lol, Rhydon has awful defensive typing, it's sooooo easy to check it offensively" then i saw this calc

252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 196-232 (55.6 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

w-what...??? and they speed tie so you can't rely on waterfall even before it dances! I was about to make a Salamence comparison ("borderline impossible to check after it sets up =/= broken") but jesus, its dual STAB coverage is disgustingly good and even the 4x super effective priority doesn't get close to KOing it. I am 99% sure it has by far the best physical bulk in the meta and good coverage options and great setup moves.

?_? is all I have to say about you Rhydon

btw, it outspeeds everything relevant except Jolly Scarf Krook/Servine, and who wants to run +Spe on them anyway ;-; Brandon said better stuff

added +2 rhydon (neutral and +spe) to speed tiers

 

[Cheryl.]

Oh yeah, and you don't even need to run Jolly on Rhydon, cuz Adamant outspeeds the base 105's after Rock Polish, so you get more power at the exchange at losing to a few Scarfers. Rhydon is fucking amazing.

 

[Maysoon]

Threw for the teambuilding compendium Weepinbell gets Sucker Punch and should be under priority users.

EDIT: Same with Dusclops (Sneak and Sucker), Nidorino/Nidorina, Graveler, and Pignite

 

[Threw]

Threw for the teambuilding compendium Weepinbell gets Sucker Punch and should be under priority users.

EDIT: Same with Dusclops (Sneak and Sucker), Nidorino/Nidorina, Graveler, and Pignite

Thanks, I'll fix tonight

 

[Cheryl.]

VR Update!

Rises:
Electabuzz to A+
Kadabra to A+
Servine to A+

Drops:
Pupitar to D (Has no niche over Dancing Rhydon, leaving it with pretty much no niche at all)
Monferno to A
Pignite to C+ (Honestly Pignite is sort of cool, Choice Band, Assault Vest, and even a physically defensive set are viable, but it doesn't have much use over the other Fire-types sadly)
Dusclops to A (It's a good wall, but it fears Knock Off, doesn't have reliable recovery or an offensive presence either, unless you're using the offensive set. Dusclops is good, but not as good as the A+ mons.)

Discussion Points:
Palpitoad to C+ (Pretty cool as a Stealth Rocker or as a Rain sweeper, thanks to great abilities in Swift Swim and Water Absorb. It may be niche, but it's not as bad as I've thought it was after testing with it, so it might deserve a rise.)
Dragonair to B+ (Dragonair is awesome, either as a Dragon Dancer or as a wallbreaker. It's niche over Fraxure is Extreme Speed and Fire Blast roasting Doublade, and it works great in a Spam core with him. It also has Shed Skin allowing him to take on status more easily than Fraxure. It isn't as powerful as Fraxure, but it definitely is pretty cool.)
Grovyle to B+ (Not so sure on this one, but overall when I use Grovyle I find myself sort of wanting to use Servine over him. The extra Speed is nice, and SD Grovyle is a very real threat, but I don't know if he's good enough for A- anymore.)

So yeah, discuss, nominate stuff, and go Middle Cup!

 

[Maysoon]

I think Grovyle works better as a physical attacker. I know that Sceptile is a great special attacker and Grovyle could be if it got Focus Blast. However Grovyle has a good enough physical movepool to put in work:

Grovyle @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
Level: 50
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Seed
- Crunch
- Rock Slide/Acrobatics/Substitute

This set maximizes Grovyle's Attack stat letting it hit 128 unboosted which is pretty nice. 60 Spe is so you hit 123 Speed and can outspeed the whole tier even under weather. The other EVs let you take hits a lot better and makes it a lot easier to get Unburden. The moveset lets Grovyle break through Sturdy or Sash mons like Kadabra, I don't think there is any reason to use Leaf Blade with things like Kadabra running around. However it should be noted that Bullet Seed is only really better after an SD, Rhydon lives a 2-hit Bullet Seed before SD. Crunch lets you beat Doublade and most other things that resist Bullet Seed. Rock Slide beats Pignite and Togetic both of which otherwise don't take much from your coverage. Acrobatics is another option but you need to lose your item before you can use it. Substitute lets you setup with greater ease at the cost of coverage. Other things to check out on Grovyle are things like Power-Up Punch and even Endure.

Despite all the good things about Grovyle it still has an extremely difficult time breaking past things even at +2. Doublade lives Crunch and Rhydon has a good chance to live a 3-hit unboosted Bullet Seed. Physically defensive Togetic lives a +2 Rock Slide. In fact, Grovyle needs to get 2 SDs up to be guaranteed a sweep, if you don't have Acrobatics Pignite can still stop you in your tracks. Physically defensive Pignite lives Rock Slide at +6 making it possibly the best check to Grovyle. To wrap this up, I think Grovyle could drop. It has a nice niche in being an Unburden sweeper with really good coverage but its lack of muscle and how frail it is can make it a pain to use. Don't underestimate it though, Grovyle still can mop the floor with unprepared teams. And to further illustrate the point of how stupid Rhydon is:

252+ Atk Grovyle Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 180-216 (99.4 - 119.3%) -- approx. 68.8% chance to OHKO

 

[skies]

hi i guess i'll make it official. there are going to be three suspects. kadabra, combusken, servine.

kadabra is an absolute monster. with such high special attack and speed, along with magic guard, it's not hard to see why it's a dominant force. however, what pushes it over the edge is the fact that it will always get a kill each match. here's a quote from Mazz that really summarizes up kadabra:

I was in the middle of going through all Pokemon on the list, just checking if we had any reliable answers to Kadabra, and I learned a handful of neat things:

1. LO Kadabra is guaranteed an OHKO per game. Not just a KO, but an OHKO. Without Pursuit, priorty, or a Choice Scarf, this count climbs exponentially. Very little can switch in and avoid the 2HKO if rocks are up. We can blame the XY Ghost-type mechanics and inclusion of Fairy-types for this. The only way it isn't guaranteed one is if it switches in on something dumb, or is initially matched against a Scarf.
2. Sash Kadabra is usually guaranteed one KO per game, but it depends on the set. If it gets a Calm Mind in, beating Kadabra becomes a matter of "is its sash broken" and "what moves does it run". Nevermind if it's forcing its setup via Encore.
3. Kadabra's ability to support teammates isn't terrible, but there's arguably better things that can do it. It has absolutely zero bulk, and is better off just shitting on switch-ins.
4. Revenge-killing is pretty much the only option we have when it comes to handling Kadabra. Porygon2 is probably its only pure "counter" (which still manages to lose in two specific scenarios, but beats Kadabra every other time). Without resorting to stuff like 252/252+ Dusclops / Togetic / etc., there's nothing that can actually handle it.
5. Gen VII can't come fast enough we need more mons.

I'm disappointed to have to say this, but shy of the aforementioned revenge killers and Assault Vest (which I haven't looked into yet), there's like 1 or 2 things that can maintain Kadabra, which is super unhealthy for the metagame. I am in favour of a ban despite having to redo all of my good teams.

combusken isn't necessarily broken outright, but it is indeed very irritating, almost to the point of being unhealthy. it has almost perfect coverage with just its STAB moves alone, with only lampent being immune to it, fletchinder resisting, but taking a lot from focus blast, and the uncommon marill resisting it. but what really makes combusken all that difficult to deal with is baton pass. you can easily make the game into one of two situations. a.) you go into a pursuit trapper / rock type and beat the opposing combusken checks, b.) take something powerful, make it even more powerful, and not get punished for it. take combusken into servine. if you don't have fletchinder, the game is just outright over. besides this, combusken isn't really /that/ shabby in terms of bulk and its typing rocks for offensive teams. i think this thing needs to go, but i'm still open to both sides of the argument of course.

servine is the pokemon i'm least sold on at the moment. leaf storm with contrary makes it an incredibly offensive pressuring force to all teams, but i'm not quite sure. its speed is average, and fletchinder is too common for it to just get free turns. that is unless you like to damn the opponent and run substitute + hp rock servine >:I. anyways, at +2 servine is incredibly threatening and doesn't have a solid counter. it can change its hidden power to beat specific counters, and it has five other supportive pokemon to weaken it down as well. i'm going to tag Mazz here since i know he's pretty sold on banning servine and i'd like to hear his argument. i can definitely see it happening, i just would like a bit more persuasion.

some other possible suspects are gothorita, rhydon, and fletchinder. though, the latter two are very unlikely to happen anytime soon.

oh! and to help with the votes for these, i've created a sort-of-council-like-thing consisting of myself, Mazz, and BrandonBeast. so congrats to them! i'll give this a week of discussion then it'll be voted on. :}

 

[Threw]

I agree more than anything with this

Gen VII can't come fast enough we need more mons.

 

[Mazz]

I think a week after I said that, the trademarks for Sun and Moon were leaked. Anyone want me to wizard anything else into existence?

Anywho, the suspects. I added a bit to that conversation, and I feel it's a really strong point that we need to define in our metagame. Have a look:

At the end of the day, everything I just mentioned (sans Gothorita), and even Magneton, is just a consequence of banning Eviolite. We won't have a bulky metagame because of this, ever. There's currently a ton of pressure on Porygon2, Togetic, Dusclops (which I'm yet to see), Roselia, Sliggoo, and Rhydon to handle every offensive threat in the metagame. I don't mind this - I prefer offensive metagames, and Middle Cup, much akin to Little Cup, is an offensive metagame - but we have to consider this when we suspect things.

I just noticed, but this is probably why it would be a good idea to ban Shadow Tag (besides making proposing challenges easier). Gothitelle handily beats Rhydon with Energy Ball, and can effectively cripple the other four with Trick. Let's talk about it some.

The "problem" with middle cup, ala why Combusken and Servine even appear in suspect discussion, is that it's a very thin metagame. We have a very select pool of bulky Pokemon to combat a ton of offensive threats. We can approach that problem in three ways:

1. One by one, eliminate things that are too powerful and eventually reach a stable offensive metagame, much akin to Little Cup
2. Bring back Eviolite in some convoluted way (ie; Eviolite Clause: Only 2 Pokemon per team may hold the item Eviolite)
3. Abandon Middle Cup and play NFE instead

Long story short, I don't like the second option at all. It's a goofy clause, and stuff like Porygon2 and even Roselia turn into nightmares. Option 3 is weird, but something about having stuff like Gligar, Scyther, and Tangela seems appealing. Obviously, it won't ever happen, but the only way to "beef up" the metagame is either bring back Eviolite, or introduce more stuff. Hopefully December 2016 brings us some fatter toys and buggers off with this Mega-Evolution nonsense. Currently, we're following option 1. Nothing wrong with that, but again, there's a lot of pressure on Rhydon, Sliggoo, Roselia, Prinplup, Dusclops, Porygon2, and Golbat to handle every threat in the metagame. Stall is completely unviable, and bulky offence is tricky. It can be done, but some things just rip it apart.

The biggest drawback to Option 1 is the time required to flush out the ridiculous stuff. Hopefully by May-ish, we'll have figured out what needs to go, and will have a completely stable metagame. Just keep in mind that offense is the playstyle of Middle Cup, and that some things won't be able to be removed because of how they perform their roles.

The Servine suspect shouldn't be considered as suspecting Servine. I'd rather see Contrary suspected, and Servine is the only user of it in the metagame. Contrary is the problem, the Pokemon is not. When considered from that viewpoint, it's a very easy argument to make, and not easy to refute. Because of its Speed tier, even the slightest Thunder Wave or Sticky Web support turns Contrary Servine into a madhouse of failed switch-ins. Fletchinder is the only reliable way to check a set-up Servine, and Substitute temporarily bypasses it. Roselia works fine as long as Servine isn't running HP Ice, Fire, or Flying (for whatever reason on the latter). Same goes for the Gothorita suspect - the Pokemon isn't broken. Gothorita is horrendously weak, slow, and only takes one or two hits. Shadow Tag is what gives it such viability. And to beat a dead horse, there's already a ton of pressure on the aforementioned fat Pokemon in the metagame. Gothorita eliminates Rhydon, Roselia, and Golbat rather efficiently, and cripples the rest. Dusclops and Doublade are free to switch out, but fear being Tricked into Choice Specs or a Flame Orb. In my personal opinion, Contrary and Shadow Tag are equally as bad as Kadabra was for Middle Cup, and really need to be looked at in terms of suspecting.

Honestly, getting rid of Contrary almost solves the Combusken issue, since a fast Servine basically beats the entire metagame. Stuff like Weakness Policy Metang still takes advantage of the boosts, but are manageable. Free boosts when something switches in is silly.

I haven't been bulldozed by a double-dance Rhydon ever because I don't let it set up. Is that a question of it being too good, or silly play? Serious question, because I've never had problems with it. I've only ran into it once (for sure, may have been more times, but I play each Rhydon the same), so I really don't know how much of a threat it is and how much support it needs to get both of them off. The idea behind double-dance sets is to beat both offensive and defensive playstyles with Rock Polish and Swords dance respectively, and Rhydon mightily struggles to do this against balance (at least on paper). If possible, I'd like to see some logs of how effective it is. I can run calcs (and common sense is telling me that a +2 Rhydon does some wicked hurt), and am aware of how fast it is when set up.

 

[Ununhexium]

Option 4: free ditto

Also I don't feel like making a monstrous post right now, but LO Combusken is scary as fuck especially if you pass it a +2 courtesy of Togetic

God forbid it sets up a sub and it wins discounting multiple misses

 

[The Immortal]

Or, unban Eviolite (and consequently Greninja, Magneton). From there, you can ban the ridiculous defensive Pokemon. This could potentially be a better option than #1, Mazz.

Speaking of options, #3 isn't really one since that changes the whole premise of this OM. And yeah, #2 is ugly.

 

[Samoyed]

I disagree with any bans as there are easy ways to stop all three and Middle Cup already has a small enough number of mons to play with.

 

[Funbot28]

Ya I never understood why Eviolite was banned. I know that it would shift the meta more defensively, but I would trade that option to what Middle Cup is currently (a clusterf*** of offense). I mean Little Cup never decided to ban Eviolite and they are doing quiet fine. Maybe some mons (ie: Rhyhorn, Chansey, and Dusclops) may become too bulky, but they could just be banned in any case. I feel this should really become an option if we don't want to start a banning slippery slope ala old STABmons.

 

[Mazz]

I disagree with any bans as there are easy ways to stop all three and Middle Cup already has a small enough number of mons to play with.

Cool, you disagree. Validate your point. The number of Pokemon in Middle Cup is not a sufficient argument.

Ya I never understood why Eviolite was banned. I know that it would shift the meta more defensively, but I would trade that option to what Middle Cup is currently (a clusterf*** of offense). I mean Little Cup never decided to ban Eviolite and they are doing quiet fine. Maybe some mons (ie: Rhyhorn, Chansey, and Dusclops) may become too bulky, but they could just be banned in any case. I feel this should really become an option if we don't want to start a banning slippery slope ala old STABmons.

A lot of things become incredibly bulky. You're forgetting about Porygon2, Roselia, Marshtomp, Golbat, Togetic, Prinplup, and a few things already being used that get significantly bulkier on both ends of the spectrum. That's the hard part, is that Eviolite raises both defences. Knock Off isn't common enough in Middle Cup to justify allowing it, unless we ban everything fat, as The Immortal proposed.

I initially misread the proposal of banning the "ridiculously" defensive stuff (I initially read it as all of the defensive stuff). Banning Porygon2, Duslcops, and keeping Chansey on the banlist might mitigate this problem. I'm not green-lighting it until I've seen enough calcs and such to show that Magneton, Kadabra, and FROGADIER become significantly less problematic. I'm not a fan of "broken balances broken" either, so Frogadier beating Kadabra (hypothetically) isn't a strong argument. Otherwise we're just getting rid of the only things still capable of taking them on - one step forward, one step back. However, I do see this as a step in the direction of a solution. There's some pretty powerful stuff down here, and at this rate, we're going to be banning anything capable of boosting its own Attack because nothing can take a hit.

Re: Rhydon might be a problem. Sets up pretty easy if you're competent enough to force a switch. Still not sold.

 

[The Immortal]

Knock Off isn't common enough in Middle Cup to justify allowing it

Not sure if you mean Pokemon don't learn it or if it isn't used. If the latter, then that isn't a good reason. People adapt according to the meta; currently Knock Off isn't needed because of the lack of Eviolite. It will most definitely be common when Eviolite is unbanned.

 

[gvmgvm40]

Yeah, banning 3 more offensive Pokemon after Frogadier and Magneton doesn't really look elegant. If it were me I'd undo all bans (except Chansey I guess?) and see what kind of a balance is reached. Toxic Spikes, Gothorita, Trick, Taunt, Knock Off, CM Duosion/Clefairy, BU Gurdurr, SD Rhydon... There are enough tools against stall and even if Dusclops/P2 turn out too hard to handle as well, a few defensive Pokemon bans look better than Eviolite + 5 offensive bans.

 

[skies]

If we allow Eviolite, it turns from banning into offense-heavy Pokemon to stall-heavy Pokemon. What's the point? I'm heavily against allowimg Eviolite.

 

[Threw]

Not sure if you mean Pokemon don't learn it or if it isn't used.

Went ahead and looked into this. A grand total of 13* MC mons learn Knock Off and a whopping 5 of those have the potential to run a physical set, and even then only one (Krokorok) gets STAB + can reliably be expected to run it optimally.

And I'm with unfix. I think if we unban Eviolite we will largely be in the same place we were before (banning things one by one) except the matches will take 40 turns longer.

 

[Mazz]

Not sure if you mean Pokemon don't learn it or if it isn't used. If the latter, then that isn't a good reason. People adapt according to the meta; currently Knock Off isn't needed because of the lack of Eviolite. It will most definitely be common when Eviolite is unbanned.

I'm saying both. There's 13 things that learn Knock Off in Middle Cup:

Ivysaur, Pikachu, Clefairy, Kadabra, Machoke, Weepinbell, Haunter, Marill, Lombre, Servine, Gurdurr, Krokorok, and Eelektrik.

If you mean to tell me that in order to avoid getting walled by whatever's left after the banning of Dusclops and company, I have to run one of these with Knock Off, I'd think you were out of your mind. Of that list, Gurdurr, Krokorok, and Machoke are the only ones that effectively run it. Kadabra cannot afford to run it, Marill can't either unless you do so over Ice Punch, Clefairy can't (but a defensive set could so, sure why not). Servine can afford to run it since it's 4th moveslot is filler anyways.

Pikachu dies to a stiff breeze, I've only seen Ivysaur on Sun teams and I cannot imagine using it over Roselia outside of one (same goes for Weepinbell). That leaves Haunter, Eelektrik, and Lombre. I don't like my odds at this point.

If we allow Eviolite, it turns from banning into offense-heavy Pokemon to stall-heavy Pokemon. What's the point? I'm heavily against allowimg Eviolite.

Here's the problem, but The Immortal did provide a way around that. Just start with the bad stuff gone, and the rest shouldn't be too bad if Magneton and Kadabra come back. Frogadier maybe.

Yeah, banning 3 more offensive Pokemon after Frogadier and Magneton doesn't really look elegant. If it were me I'd undo all bans (except Chansey I guess?) and see what kind of a balance is reached. Toxic Spikes, Gothorita, Trick, Taunt, Knock Off, CM Duosion/Clefairy, BU Gurdurr, SD Rhydon... There are enough tools against stall and even if Dusclops/P2 turn out too hard to handle as well, a few defensive Pokemon bans look better than Eviolite + 5 offensive bans.

I'm not sold. Toxic Spikes are impossible to maintain in this metagame, since Prinplup and Roselia are too common. Togetic gets Defog too, and I'm noticing it a bit more. Everything else you mentioned, sure, but you're heavily underestimating how bulky some of those things can get in respect to the power level available to Middle Cup. Even in BWMC, Eviolite was banned. It's a massive problem.

Is ban-aesthetics a thing? I've been in much more ban-happy metagames and haven't heard of this kind of complaint. Regardless that's a terrible reason. "It looks bad". In a metagame with a limited defensive cast? Gimme a break.

 

[The Immortal]

Fair enough; I overestimated how many Pokemon would learn it. Which brings up the question; how does it work in LC? Far from an LC player but I'll assume LC is balanced for the sake of the argument.

If we allow Eviolite, it turns from banning into offense-heavy Pokemon to stall-heavy Pokemon. What's the point? I'm heavily against allowimg Eviolite.

I feel turning a stall-heavy Middle Cup to a balanced Middle Cup would require less banning than an offense-heavy one.