Milotic (OU Bulky Water)

[shrang]

I think the spread is fine as it is. Currently, you are surviving Dragon Dance Mence's Outrage at +1, not factoring in SR (553 Atk vs 282 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 328 - 387 (83.25% - 98.22%). MixMence absolutely requires Draco Meteor + Outrage to kill you, so you can pretty much just switch to your Steel and take the Outrage and Recover off the damage better.

I'm quite sure everyone has gotten over the fact that Milotic isn't badly outclassed by Vaporeon. Recover, is the sole but massive reason why Milotic is not outclassed. With Recover, Milotic can run 3 attacks, so she can stop more threats than Vaporeon can. Mence - Ice Beam, Gyara - HP Electric, Heatran - Surf. If you want to stop Suicune, you can replace a move with Haze. Recover also allows Milotic to get out of some situations Vaporeon can't. For example: Vaporeon is at 25% or so and is up against a Swampert. You can't Wish to get your health back because EQ would kill you. Now if Milotic is in the situation, she can just Recover off the damage and continue to wall shit. Milotic serves as a pretty good utility counter to a lot of things.

 

[Setsuna]

I can see this happening. However, I'm in the same position as Philip is, so I'd really like to know if that spread is the most optimal one Milotic can use in OU.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I know 252 HP/252 Defensive on Bold is a pretty mindless spread, but it already comfortably hits the dragon dancers, Heatran, and even Scizor--something like Lucario could probably be 2KOed more easily with some special attack evs, but Milotic needs all the staying power that it can get.

I can't think of many notable KOs it could assure or threats it really needs to outspeed that would be worth denting its defenses.

Worth mentioning that Calm Milotic with the same spread has stats of 394 HP/257 Defense/314 Special Defense--exactly three more total defensive points than bold?

 

[Sei]

The alternative EV spread for the OP Milotic set is pretty hard to come up with. The post below was the one that I had previously deleted, as I had realized that the 252 HP/252 Def will slightly increase the chance of Milotic surviving a +1 Outrage from Salamence.

Vaporeon is the OU prominent bulky Water-type. So maybe you can try to duplicate the physical defense capability of Vaporeon and apply it to Milotic. And from there on you can experiment with the EV spread.

name: OU Bulky Water
move 1: Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Hidden Power Electric/Toxic/Hypnosis
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 SpD

212 HP EVs produce HP stat of 384, which is a Leftovers number.
212 HP/252 Def EVs copy Vaporeon's physical defensive capability.
44 SpD EVs is leftover EVs

 

[cim]

The problem with this Milotic is it doesn't do anything. It sits there and attacks for little damage and Recovers and nothing else. How is that helpful for the team at all? I honestly can't find a use for a Pokemon that is neither a threat offensively nor defensively. Cresselia syndrome, basically.

 

[Towelie]

The problem with this Milotic is it doesn't do anything. It sits there and attacks for little damage and Recovers and nothing else. How is that helpful for the team at all? I honestly can't find a use for a Pokemon that is neither a threat offensively nor defensively. Cresselia syndrome, basically.

thank you. vappy supports the team, cruel sets up t spikes, starmie rips shit up, and cune cm's and roars shit. milotic sits there and jerks off while the other poke switches out

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Maximum coverage in Surf, Ice Beam, and Hidden Power Electric allow Milotic to enjoy some level of type-trumping, and Milotic's 100 base special attack is decent.

It's not necessarily Cresselia syndrome because Cresselia's Moonlight gets really messed up by Sandstorm and it needs to boost with Calm Mind or Charge Beam(call it an inferior Suicune, I dare you) before its special attack is acceptable.

Prediction really is key I think. If they think you're going to ice beam them, they're going to switch into a steel type or a water type, but then you have surf and hidden power electric.

I'm just trying to determine the best ev spread for it. I'm not quite sure how

384 HP/282 Defense/297 Special Defense compares to my 394 HP/282 Defense/286 Special Defense.

Would 11 points be preferred in Special Defense or Special Attack?

Call me delusional, but I see Milotic functioning similarly to the Manaphy on this team, only it trades some 10 defensive stat points to handle status a bit better and recovers instantly.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53662

Even if a new set isn't written, a mention should most definitely be in order.

 

[Thund91]

Milotic can be considered somewhat of a mix of all the bulky waters. Has Recover, a high Special Attack stat for a Defensive Pokemon, support options (mainly Haze but Light Screen is ok I guess), and can act as a status absorber. The biggest advantage I can see for using Milotic is that it gets coverage against all the "big threats." Surf is a given, but for Vappy and Cune, they need to choose if they want to cover Gyara or Dragons/Grasses. Since Milotic doesn't need Protect like Vappy and doesn't utilize Calm Mind like Suicune, it can take on all of them.

I think it's worth having at least one OU set, I'd utilize Restalk myself, but whatever floats your guys' boat.

 

[MetaNite]

The problem with this Milotic is it doesn't do anything. It sits there and attacks for little damage and Recovers and nothing else. How is that helpful for the team at all? I honestly can't find a use for a Pokemon that is neither a threat offensively nor defensively. Cresselia syndrome, basically.

While I do agree somewhat with this statement, it gets pretty much perfect coverage so a large portion of the metagame is hit super effectively. Do we need to list the Pokemon? Hippowdon, Gliscor, Tyranitar, Heatran, Infernape, Gyarados, Starmie, Salamence, Dragonite, and Flygon are the ones I can think of at the moment. This is a hell of a lot more than Cresselia can hit, with better neutral STAB and higher Special Attack. Another thing I'd like to address is that besides Wish and Protect taking up two moveslots, it is inferior at self recovery than Recover against slower Pokemon as well. For instance, if you are already weakened as a Scizor comes in, you will die to U-turn as you make a Wish. With Recover, you restore your health in one turn enabling you to survive the hit. I would also suggest a simple max HP / max Def EV spread because you need all the defense to survive a +1 Mence Outrage at full health.

 

[RaikouLover]

Milotic is a strong user of Toxic, which is better than sitting and "jerking off" so to speak. Steels are walled by Milotic so its not a problem here. But bulkier walls have no shot at breaking Milotic while she Toxi-stalls anything she can't directly beat.

Also, that is why with three attacks, a Life Orb Tank becomes effective.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I like Milotic way more as a RestTalker and a Life Orb attacker. Those sets are definite threats in OU, whereas this set doesn't do much other than counter Gyarados (Vaporeon can do that) and Toxic (Vaporeon can do that). Vaporeon is also unique in that it only takes 60 BP from Grass Knot, a commonly used attack by the likes of Celebi, Empoleon, Infernape, etc.

 

[animenagai]

Look, you have 6 pokemon on a team. Not all of them have to be active offensively. Milotic is a poke that can check a lot of threats in the meta right now, giving you more freedom with your other pokes. You can now run stuff like double dragon without fearing that you'll be weak to stuff because mence + kingdra don't check enough threats. To say that it's not viable because it just jerks off is hence oversimplistic and nothing but a personal preference.

 

[Towelie]

I think a Life Orb set would be better than a tank because it can actually do shit after walling something, and it has the bulk to pull it off (while way slower than starmie obviously)

 

[shrang]

thank you. vappy supports the team, cruel sets up t spikes, starmie rips shit up, and cune cm's and roars shit. milotic sits there and jerks off while the other poke switches out

Does it have to?? I mean, what the hell does Softboiled Blissey (Definitely still around these days) do?? What the hell does Registeel do in UU, or Giratina in Ubers?? Milotic actually isn't bad, even without Special Attack EVs, she can still do reasonable damage (At least more damage than the opponent does back to you, in a lot of cases). There's a thing called a "defensive pivot", you know.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Softboiled Blissey is usually used so that you can use important support stuff like Heal Bell, Thunder Wave, or Stealth Rock. You only see it when the need for that extra SUPPORT slot is obvious.

EDIT: Steels walled by Milotic? Hmm. There's Jirachi, which is rocking you with CM Thunderbolt, tricking you a Scarf, or just Thunderpunching you down. Metagross can Thunderpunch or Explode, and the same with Heatran (HP Grass/Electric or Explode). Magnezone is obviously beating you with STAB Thunderbolt. Scizor has that powerful U-turn, which Milotic can't afford to take much of, while outspeeding and KOing with SD Bug Bite. SDef Skarm can Spike all day. SDef Forry can do whatever (Spin, Spike, TSpike, etc). Bronzong is *maybe* walled, but it's still got the nuclear option (Explosion). Empoleon is laughing at Milotic even harder than at Vap, since Grass Knot does far more damage to the heavier and less bulky Milotic, while Milotic is doing less damage than Vap anyway (20 pts of SAtk makes a fairly large difference). I find the statement of "walling steels" questionable at best.

EDIT 2: Just so we can talk about this whole "support" thing... take a look at why Gastrodon is so badly outclassed by Swampert. I mean, Gastrodon has a more useful ability (Sticky Hold? Being 100% Jirachi and Rotom-A-proof? Sounds great to me!) Its bulk is comparable, considering 111/68/82 vs. 100/90/90, it has the same great dual STAB, Gastrodon even has more power on its Ice Beam and Surf than Swampert. To top it off, it's got Recover! So why is Gastrodon relegated to the Siberian tundra that is NU, while Swampert is living large in OU? It's the fact that once Gastrodon gets in and starts walling stuff... it's not really achieving much. Pert can lay SR, it can Roar, it can sit there and Protect against Exploders, etc. Gastrodon just can't compare to what Pert is capable of doing after it switches in.

Milotic is the same way. Sure, it can switch in and sit on its ass like a wall, but can it contribute to the team? Vaporeon is Wishing and/or Roaring, Cune is threatening a sweep (or Roaring as well), Pert is SRing (and Roaring again!), Tentacruel is spinning or TSpiking, Starmie is shrugging off Status (yes, even Toxic and Sleep!), Rapid Spinning, and threatening to sweep. Defensive Gyarados is Intimidating stuff and Roaring. Hell, Slowbro and Slowking are TWaving stuff, as well as packing the niche of "the only Machamp counters." All of these things are why any Water-type is a better choice than Milotic in OU.

 

[panamaxis]

Hidden Power Electric, Recover, Surf and Ice Beam all in one set? Wow milotic sucks!!! Let's just use vaporeon with wish, protect, surf, hidden power electric because who needs to beat dragons and gyarados in one go...Wish + Protect isn't anywhere near as good as recover when we are solely talking about the survival of the pokemon using it (and also the range of pokemon it can cover). (P.S. I don't think Jirachi isn't thunderpunching milotic down any time soon and Heatran's hidden power isn't strong enough, it will need to explode. Empoleon's laughing at Milotic? I think it's the other way around seeing as you're only seeing grass Knot on the agility LO set which isn't even that common plus I'd imagine it's recover stalled quite easily.)

Saying milotic is completely outclassed is just ignorance, RL is completely right. Why are you getting caught up in "contributing to the team?" Isn't the possibility (obviously not all sets of these pokemon with one milotic set though) of taking Salamence, Gyarados, Infernape, Gengar, Kingdra, Suicune, Swampert, Starmie "contributing to the team"??? Anyway, Hypnosis is worthless, I wouldn't waste my time with it. Haze is a decent option over hidden power electric because you can stop stop non-taunt gyarados with ice beam and haze anyway (PS, kingdra counter (and works decently vs offensive suicune and SD scizor (if not fast) too!).

Anyway, I think milotic works well with either bold 252hp, 252 defence, 4 whatever and calm 252hp 200 def 56 s.def, it depends what you want. They both play somewhat differently. Mixmence or DD mence, what would you rather take on? Gengar or physical ape, what would you rather take on? Starmie or Metagross/Kingdra, what would you rather take on (you need haze for kingdra though but you need no SR on the field to switch into starmie with impunity, but without SR or if you come in on anything but tbolt you're golden)? You'll beat gyarados with either EVs.

"Not a threat offensively"? No offensive pokemon are exactly shrugging of its attacks and its not like skarm/forre aren't setting up on the other bulky waters anyway (yeah starmie and the offensive cune but they serve completely different roles anyway).

I don't think Swampert completely outclassed Gastrodon either but that's something for another thread.

thank you. vappy supports the team, cruel sets up t spikes, starmie rips shit up, and cune cm's and roars shit. milotic sits there and jerks off while the other poke switches out

Milotic made the opposing pokemon switch out? So it gained nothing? So it took entry hazard damage and then switched out so it lost health for nothing? Wow that's TERRIBLE! Like I said, stop being ignorant with this "not supporting the team" nonsense please.

 

[muramusaw8]

Not much to add

Gastrodon does have its niche running Curse/Waterfall/ReSTalk.

Milotic doesn't hit hard enough without significant EV investments in Special Attack, which then detracts from its ability to counter or check multiple threats, but at least it isn't Pursuit weak. Marvel Scale is a boon but being Paralyzed, Poisoned, or Burned can really hamper Milotic.

 

[panamaxis]

What exactly isn't milotic hitting hard enough? (That's not Gastrodon's niche, Swampert actually completely outclasses that particular set though that's irrelevant for now..)

 

[McNUTTY]

i personally dont think this set deserves its own set on Strategy Dex, but Milotic actually does very well in OU and it is unique from the other bulky waters. it can reliably counter many threats like panamaxis (relies on the evs and the set though) says and i have used it successfully in both OU and UU. it hits quite hard off base 100 Special Attack even with no investment, (kind of like RS Starmie) and its moves also have great coverage! whats not to like!

 

[ginganinja]

I have been watching this thread for a little while now since Cipher Admins obsession with Milotic was rather infectious and I helped her try and make Milotic in OU. I ran huge amounts of calcs to figure out spreads etc. I feel that the LO tank and the Sleep Talker sets are best for Milotic in OU however, (for what its worth) I believe this has merit due to its nice coverage and bulkiness.

Some Calcs for Milotic vs Empoleon (if somebody can double check them that would be great since sometimes I miss things)

Max Def Milotic loses if Empoleon has Grass Knot but otherwise…

A Empolen’s 1+ Torrent boosted Surf does 35.79% - 42.13%
while Milotic can break Empoleon’s Sub with HP Electric.

Calm Milotic with 56 spD has a small chance to be KO’ed by a 1+ Grass Knot since it does 87.31% - 103.05% which is a 15.38% chance to OHKO. SR is not included in this Calc since by the time Empoleon is in Petaya range Milotic has got back to full health via leftovers. Milotic does roughly 30% to Empoleon at least which breaks it’s Sub and kills Empoleon after Milotic survives a Grass Knot.

(Milotic needs 252 HP and 100 spD EVs to never be OHKO’ed by Grass knot after a single boost.)

Anyway in conclusion I too think that Milotic has worth in OU. The mixed Wall set can take strong hits while having a wide range of coverage. Recover is perhaps the reason to run Milotic over Vaporeon since it gives Milotic a free move slot.
I would say other things but Panamaxis pretty much summed up most of what I was going to say.

Have a Nice Day!

 

[Towelie]

Softboiled Blissey is usually used so that you can use important support stuff like Heal Bell, Thunder Wave, or Stealth Rock. You only see it when the need for that extra SUPPORT slot is obvious.

EDIT: Steels walled by Milotic? Hmm. There's Jirachi, which is rocking you with CM Thunderbolt, tricking you a Scarf, or just Thunderpunching you down. Metagross can Thunderpunch or Explode, and the same with Heatran (HP Grass/Electric or Explode). Magnezone is obviously beating you with STAB Thunderbolt. Scizor has that powerful U-turn, which Milotic can't afford to take much of, while outspeeding and KOing with SD Bug Bite. SDef Skarm can Spike all day. SDef Forry can do whatever (Spin, Spike, TSpike, etc). Bronzong is *maybe* walled, but it's still got the nuclear option (Explosion). Empoleon is laughing at Milotic even harder than at Vap, since Grass Knot does far more damage to the heavier and less bulky Milotic, while Milotic is doing less damage than Vap anyway (20 pts of SAtk makes a fairly large difference). I find the statement of "walling steels" questionable at best.

EDIT 2: Just so we can talk about this whole "support" thing... take a look at why Gastrodon is so badly outclassed by Swampert. I mean, Gastrodon has a more useful ability (Sticky Hold? Being 100% Jirachi and Rotom-A-proof? Sounds great to me!) Its bulk is comparable, considering 111/68/82 vs. 100/90/90, it has the same great dual STAB, Gastrodon even has more power on its Ice Beam and Surf than Swampert. To top it off, it's got Recover! So why is Gastrodon relegated to the Siberian tundra that is NU, while Swampert is living large in OU? It's the fact that once Gastrodon gets in and starts walling stuff... it's not really achieving much. Pert can lay SR, it can Roar, it can sit there and Protect against Exploders, etc. Gastrodon just can't compare to what Pert is capable of doing after it switches in.

Milotic is the same way. Sure, it can switch in and sit on its ass like a wall, but can it contribute to the team? Vaporeon is Wishing and/or Roaring, Cune is threatening a sweep (or Roaring as well), Pert is SRing (and Roaring again!), Tentacruel is spinning or TSpiking, Starmie is shrugging off Status (yes, even Toxic and Sleep!), Rapid Spinning, and threatening to sweep. Defensive Gyarados is Intimidating stuff and Roaring. Hell, Slowbro and Slowking are TWaving stuff, as well as packing the niche of "the only Machamp counters." All of these things are why any Water-type is a better choice than Milotic in OU.

This pretty much sums up everything I think.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

This pretty much sums up everything I think.

You've made that PERFECTLY clear. Are you really going to keep trying to tell us you're right and everybody else is totally wrong?

I've been experimenting with Calm Rest-talk Milotic myself and a spread of 252 HP/252 Special Defense has been testing well. Milotic can take a specs Jolt's Thunderbolt, and 2KO it as it switches in.

If this Milotic gets taunted, it's not as screwed as the Vaporeon trying to wish or the Suicune trying to setup.
Okay, so Slowbro and Slowking counter Machamp--Milotic gets no credit for being able to stop Mence or Gyarados?

Bash the spread, but not the pokemon! I mean the way some people are talking, you'd think we were talking about Luvdisc or Lumineon!

 

[Loki]

i've used milotic on multiple teams in the past and it had always done its job well, dismissing it because "it doesnt do anything" is naive/ignorant. i agree completely with what panamaxis said.

 

[Conflict]

Just saying that Milotic is worth it -even in OU. I have used it in the past and i have to admit that it does a good job.
In my opinion the Recover-Set is the best one for the OU-tier (Suicune outclasses Resttalksets most of the time).

Seconding panamaxis points too.

Just include a short mention of Milotics uses in OU in the AC of her first Set and slash HP [Electric] in.

 

[cim]

Maximum coverage in Surf, Ice Beam, and Hidden Power Electric allow Milotic to enjoy some level of type-trumping, and Milotic's 100 base special attack is decent.

It's not necessarily Cresselia syndrome because Cresselia's Moonlight gets really messed up by Sandstorm and it needs to boost with Calm Mind or Charge Beam(call it an inferior Suicune, I dare you) before its special attack is acceptable.

You're reading into my analogy far too literally. What makes Cresselia bad is that it's a counter that doesn't do anything. All this Milotic seems to do is use SE moves to force switches.

Prediction really is key I think. If they think you're going to ice beam them, they're going to switch into a steel type or a water type, but then you have surf and hidden power electric.

Except Milotic's Special Attack is far from good enough to pull this off. There's a reason Starmie maxes its attack and uses Life Orb to try to do this; because it has to in order to be a real threat with its STAB and SE moves. Milotic does far too little damage to stuff like Celebi, Shaymin, some Vaporeon, CM Suicine to justify having a slot on the team. Sure it does damage to offensive teams and stuff that's weak to it, but what Pokemon doesn't?

While I do agree somewhat with this statement, it gets pretty much perfect coverage so a large portion of the metagame is hit super effectively. Do we need to list the Pokemon? Hippowdon, Gliscor, Tyranitar, Heatran, Infernape, Gyarados, Starmie, Salamence, Dragonite, and Flygon are the ones I can think of at the moment.

1. Cresselia can hit a large portion of those SE. Not nearly all of them, but still. Cresselia doesn't suck because it has too little coverage. Cresselia sucks because it can't do anything else. (also pursuit bait, no recovery, etc)

2. Those Pokemon can switch out. The thing about utility counters that do nothing on a team but try to counter stuff is that they get beaten by the opponent doing the simplest move in the game, as Milotic's neither offensively threatening nor defensively threatening. Pointing out that Water / Ice / Electric hits a lot of stuff for SE is a completely moot point when the moveset barring Recover is something any water type in the game can learn, and the threats Milotic counters would be foolish at best to stay in on 4x SE attacks.

I guess I am lost when I see a set like this because I think "what does this do if the threat just switches out?" Obviously for Salamence / Dragonite switching out is basically winning the battle with Stealth Rock in play, but after awhile all Milotic does is force switches, and tons of Pokemon can do that. I mean does Surf really do that much damage to Scizor, Jirachi, Metagross? Ice Beam to Celebi? HP Electric to Suicune?