You've made your points known in the thread mate. Will you please chill out and let some others contribute to the discussion without going off on a tangent about other Pokemon?
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[Monotype] Hoopa-Unbound Suspect
- Thread starter Anttya
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IronicNinja tagging you because your post is really long.
While it is true Hoopa-U can run a large number of sets, it is not nearly the colossal feat to predict that it might appear to be. When you see Hoopa-U switch into a faster Pokemon, sure you might be getting played, but chances are high it's using Choice Scarf because in most of these circumstances, Psychic won't be want to be risking Hoopa-U. If you see the Substitute, you know what the other moves are likely to be. The only difficult to predict set is Choice Band (and the moves are relatively easy to predict anyway), but even that can be exposed as soon as it attacks. And of course, on Dark there is only one real set which is Hyperspace Fury and Hole + Gunk Shot + Coverage with a Choice Scarf. Scouting for that coverage move is relatively trivial and again not a titanic task. You always have more information than you think, which includes what other Pokemon the opponent runs; what moves you've seen revealed, and what sets you believe that can resolve; and of course the situation in which Hoopa-U is put into play.
Usage stats aren't the be-all and end-all, and it would be completely wrong to rely on them so heavily for your argument. Remember usage stats amalgamate all the sets together. So while it is true that Hoopa-U uses a large number of moves and versatility, when you consider each set separately that is no longer the case. Hoopa-U's numerous sets are actually very limited in what moves they can and should run. And while you can argue that the number of sets results in unpredictability, most of the sets overlap significantly. This is only not the case when approaching Steel Killer and Special based sets in general, neither of which are particularly common currently. Not to get snarky, but why don't you attempt to analyze your beloved usage stats instead of simply reporting them?
I would actually argue that Hoopa-U is predictable. Unlike some Pokemon, it is very difficult to conceal for long what set you are running with it.
By the way, I get the feeling you just want Hoopa-U to be banned to weaken Psychic. You do realize globally banning Hoopa-U makes Psychic defeat Dark more easily right? Hoopa-U on Psychic does very little vs Dark. While it does have impressive Special bulk and can resist Dark-type moves, that is not useful when Dark teams are running almost completely Physical teams (Hoopa-U isn't taking a Knock Off from anything). On the other hand, Hoopa-U on Dark gets a kill whenever it comes in for free. You have this strange misconception that there are matchups that one or another type is supposed to win or lose. I'm not quite understanding why you believe this, but I believe you would claim Dark vs Psychic is a matchup Dark should win, whatever that means.
While it is true Hoopa-U can run a large number of sets, it is not nearly the colossal feat to predict that it might appear to be. When you see Hoopa-U switch into a faster Pokemon, sure you might be getting played, but chances are high it's using Choice Scarf because in most of these circumstances, Psychic won't be want to be risking Hoopa-U. If you see the Substitute, you know what the other moves are likely to be. The only difficult to predict set is Choice Band (and the moves are relatively easy to predict anyway), but even that can be exposed as soon as it attacks. And of course, on Dark there is only one real set which is Hyperspace Fury and Hole + Gunk Shot + Coverage with a Choice Scarf. Scouting for that coverage move is relatively trivial and again not a titanic task. You always have more information than you think, which includes what other Pokemon the opponent runs; what moves you've seen revealed, and what sets you believe that can resolve; and of course the situation in which Hoopa-U is put into play.
Usage stats aren't the be-all and end-all, and it would be completely wrong to rely on them so heavily for your argument. Remember usage stats amalgamate all the sets together. So while it is true that Hoopa-U uses a large number of moves and versatility, when you consider each set separately that is no longer the case. Hoopa-U's numerous sets are actually very limited in what moves they can and should run. And while you can argue that the number of sets results in unpredictability, most of the sets overlap significantly. This is only not the case when approaching Steel Killer and Special based sets in general, neither of which are particularly common currently. Not to get snarky, but why don't you attempt to analyze your beloved usage stats instead of simply reporting them?
I would actually argue that Hoopa-U is predictable. Unlike some Pokemon, it is very difficult to conceal for long what set you are running with it.
By the way, I get the feeling you just want Hoopa-U to be banned to weaken Psychic. You do realize globally banning Hoopa-U makes Psychic defeat Dark more easily right? Hoopa-U on Psychic does very little vs Dark. While it does have impressive Special bulk and can resist Dark-type moves, that is not useful when Dark teams are running almost completely Physical teams (Hoopa-U isn't taking a Knock Off from anything). On the other hand, Hoopa-U on Dark gets a kill whenever it comes in for free. You have this strange misconception that there are matchups that one or another type is supposed to win or lose. I'm not quite understanding why you believe this, but I believe you would claim Dark vs Psychic is a matchup Dark should win, whatever that means.
OK now I'll shut up and let you guys talk. Anyway I never said hoopa isn't predictable but I said there are other things that are just as predictable.
If Kyurem and Skymin 6-0 types then why aren't their usages higher? I don't understand but maybe I'm just stupid.
EDIT: Have you even checked out the matchup table? http://monotypeps.weebly.com/matchup-table.html
The only two decent matchups for grass are Rock & Water.
Ice is a bit better, however 1. Kyurem-White doesn't 6-0 steel because Ice still loses to steel 3/4 times; 2. Kyurem-White doesn't 6-0 Bug either as Ice loses to bug 2/3 times.
If Kyurem and Skymin 6-0 types then why aren't their usages higher? I don't understand but maybe I'm just stupid.
EDIT: Have you even checked out the matchup table? http://monotypeps.weebly.com/matchup-table.html
The only two decent matchups for grass are Rock & Water.
Ice is a bit better, however 1. Kyurem-White doesn't 6-0 steel because Ice still loses to steel 3/4 times; 2. Kyurem-White doesn't 6-0 Bug either as Ice loses to bug 2/3 times.
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I just had a few comments on the above posts and a question.
First of all Hoopa doesn't 6-0 ghost because of Mega Sab (or even regular Sab) and Aegislash. Also some of the above posts talk about unbanning Shaymin-Sky and Kyurem-White. I pretty much agree with what a few other players said regarding these mons but they bring up the topic of type bans once again. Basically what I'm asking is if type bans could really be a possibility considering that we aren't quite an official tier yet. If I'm overstepping my boundaries please let me know.
First of all Hoopa doesn't 6-0 ghost because of Mega Sab (or even regular Sab) and Aegislash. Also some of the above posts talk about unbanning Shaymin-Sky and Kyurem-White. I pretty much agree with what a few other players said regarding these mons but they bring up the topic of type bans once again. Basically what I'm asking is if type bans could really be a possibility considering that we aren't quite an official tier yet. If I'm overstepping my boundaries please let me know.
Aegislash and Type ban stuff: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-open-discussion.3544507/page-61#post-6698355
Subjugator
Banned deucer.
Okay time to share my opinion on this. I have used Hoopa-Unbound in Monotype since it's release, and I have been playing Monotype Dark since January 2014. Hoopa-Unbound, while definitely a groundbreaking Pokemon, is not worthy of a ban for many reasons. First of all, if I remember correctly, a Pokemon has to completely destroy at least three types (which proved true to Talonflame and others), which Hoopa-Unbound doesn't do imo. First of all, I would like to say that Hoopa-Unbound doesn't 6-0 Ghost due to Mega Sableye, who will use Will'O'Wisp and stop it's sweep (because most Hoopas are Scarfed iirc). Second of all, I believe that Hoopa-U doesn't really 6-0 Ice either. Kyurem-Black lives just about anything from Hoopa-Unbound and retaliates hard Avalugg stomachs any physical move and uses Avalanche or Roar, Mamoswine can hit hard with physical attacks.
However, in no way is Hoopa-Unbound short of a monster. The thing was a pure godsend to Dark and Psychic alike, and I'm not going to state all of the reasons as other users have brought it up before. For now, I don't really have a clear-cut opinion on it, but I don't think that it really merits a ban, at least for the time being.
However, in no way is Hoopa-Unbound short of a monster. The thing was a pure godsend to Dark and Psychic alike, and I'm not going to state all of the reasons as other users have brought it up before. For now, I don't really have a clear-cut opinion on it, but I don't think that it really merits a ban, at least for the time being.
Observation: Hoopa-U has counters, things that revenge kill it, and things that can switch in and kill it straight up. It has poor speed and defense, doesn't help a ton vs HO or stall (depending on the set.) I don't see it as very different than Kyurem-B, honestly, and no one's trying to ban that.
Prediction: It's probably still gonna be banned because 50/50s uncompetitive over-centralizing hits like a truck no switchins monster though.
Prediction: It's probably still gonna be banned because 50/50s uncompetitive over-centralizing hits like a truck no switchins monster though.
I've been playing on showdown for a couple generations now, but never really got into monotype while playing. Wasn't until maybe a month ago that I started wetting my feet the tier itself, But it's been a blast so far. The reason I'm leading up with this is as a result, I was unsure as to how good Hoopa-U really was in the monotype tier. In OU as it is, the thing has solidified itself as a monster with an amazing movepool, super strong attack and special attack stats, and the ability to break walls, act as a revenge killer or late game sweeper with choice scarf, or even have a pretty successful run under trick room as well. Not to mention its ability to catch people off guard with it's lesser used but still viable moves like nasty plot, trick, etc. That being said, It is not the only mon that is like that in OU as there are other mons that come to mind right away that i'm seeing people mention here as well cough cough KYUB cough. Not to mention its health and special defense stats allow it to take a hit or two if need be from special attacks. That being said, it does have its weaknesses too, mainly it's typing and defense. While psychic dark are nice offensive STABs to have, it's not the best thing in the world to have against one of the most common moves in the game U-turn, and fairy moves in general. And in this generation, just about every type has some form of physical priority to make its defensive stat look like wet tissue paper.
I got my 2850 yesterday so at this point i'm just waiting for the identification thread now, but this thought process was what went through my mind BEFORE laddering seriously. Honestly, just looking off of OU, despite it being a central part of the metagame, I didn't think it needed to be banned. But as I began to ladder, I read through the posts on here and tried viewing not only my own team, but also my opponents team. If i versed a Hoopa-U I tried to evaluate how much it murked my team or how useless it was against my team. And when I versed a grass team, or an ice team, or a dragon team, I would try to visualize how a Hoopa-U could be built to handle their structure if at all possible.
One concept that is probably completely normal to all of you at this point is the idea of type only bans. I've seen multiple people talk about it in the chat here, and i'm aware that recently (or maybe not recently, i have no clue lol) Aegi was banned on steel only. I didn't understand the concept right away, but after seeing Doublade on steels I began to realize how centralized that mon must have been on that team. I can only imagine how much of a headache that would've been to get around as certain types or even team structures themselves. So after understanding that, I thought that could be a very interesting approach for other mons as well. And after versing a lot of psychic and dark teams on the ladder, I really do think that Hoopa-U should only be banned on psychic teams. I know that's not an option for this, it's either global ban or no ban. But as it is, psychic types have such a variety of mons that they can use, and Hoopa-U only adds to that being one of the most powerful pokemon to that addition. On the other hand, Dark types definitely do gain a lot from having Hoopa-U, yet I never felt overwhelmed by it's presence on those teams. Dark types have mixed attackers to choose from, but I think Hoopa-U is definitely a staple that has made them more viable in the current meta.
All in all, I have no idea where I stand on the matter. I do think that psychic could lose a step or two right now, though I also think both psychic types as a whole and Hoopa-U are not the most out of hand mons in the meta right now. I mean, I used flying and went 33-3 to get reqs with relative ease. If anything, I think some slight balancing for flying would be a step in the right direction, and more importantly I think this involves type bans for that type in particular (but I digress, sigh lol). I think I shall hold off on my opinion for now; I would much rather see what other people have to say on the matter because the choice is difficult for me to make for global or not. I think the type ban is pretty clear cut for me, but i don't know about the one at hand. If I had to make the decision right now, it would be "TO BAN HOOPA-U" just because of how solid it is on psychic with trick room support, type synergy, offensive pressure etc (though I doubt banning it would really change much for psychic considering it's plethora of mons waiting in the back) but i'm still going to keep an eye out on the forums before i make a decision
I got my 2850 yesterday so at this point i'm just waiting for the identification thread now, but this thought process was what went through my mind BEFORE laddering seriously. Honestly, just looking off of OU, despite it being a central part of the metagame, I didn't think it needed to be banned. But as I began to ladder, I read through the posts on here and tried viewing not only my own team, but also my opponents team. If i versed a Hoopa-U I tried to evaluate how much it murked my team or how useless it was against my team. And when I versed a grass team, or an ice team, or a dragon team, I would try to visualize how a Hoopa-U could be built to handle their structure if at all possible.
One concept that is probably completely normal to all of you at this point is the idea of type only bans. I've seen multiple people talk about it in the chat here, and i'm aware that recently (or maybe not recently, i have no clue lol) Aegi was banned on steel only. I didn't understand the concept right away, but after seeing Doublade on steels I began to realize how centralized that mon must have been on that team. I can only imagine how much of a headache that would've been to get around as certain types or even team structures themselves. So after understanding that, I thought that could be a very interesting approach for other mons as well. And after versing a lot of psychic and dark teams on the ladder, I really do think that Hoopa-U should only be banned on psychic teams. I know that's not an option for this, it's either global ban or no ban. But as it is, psychic types have such a variety of mons that they can use, and Hoopa-U only adds to that being one of the most powerful pokemon to that addition. On the other hand, Dark types definitely do gain a lot from having Hoopa-U, yet I never felt overwhelmed by it's presence on those teams. Dark types have mixed attackers to choose from, but I think Hoopa-U is definitely a staple that has made them more viable in the current meta.
All in all, I have no idea where I stand on the matter. I do think that psychic could lose a step or two right now, though I also think both psychic types as a whole and Hoopa-U are not the most out of hand mons in the meta right now. I mean, I used flying and went 33-3 to get reqs with relative ease. If anything, I think some slight balancing for flying would be a step in the right direction, and more importantly I think this involves type bans for that type in particular (but I digress, sigh lol). I think I shall hold off on my opinion for now; I would much rather see what other people have to say on the matter because the choice is difficult for me to make for global or not. I think the type ban is pretty clear cut for me, but i don't know about the one at hand. If I had to make the decision right now, it would be "TO BAN HOOPA-U" just because of how solid it is on psychic with trick room support, type synergy, offensive pressure etc (though I doubt banning it would really change much for psychic considering it's plethora of mons waiting in the back) but i'm still going to keep an eye out on the forums before i make a decision
I'm going to post more later but honestly I have never personally had problems with Hoopa-U. Even when I'm high on the ladder and facing high up Dark teams with Hoopa-U, I tend to always have something that can deal with it. I wouldn't say that it's predictable but most of the time it is running a set that I would expect, with 95% of the Hoopa-Us I face being Scarfed. I dunno, might just be me, but personally as someone who has probably only used Hoopa-U once in Monotype, I tend to not think of it as that much of a threat on my opponents team. Just my 2 cents.
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I just wanted to point out something that people should be thinking about when considering whether or not Hoopa U should be banned.
There's been a lot of comments which mostly refer to Hoopa U being a threat because of its predictability, followed by a load of statistics and what not. So I just want to address this real quick.
I agree with Dream Eater Gengar in one of his first posts that actually Hoopa U is very predictable. Hoopa U isn't the first pokemon to have a very wide move pool, and especially not the first on mono-psychic anyway (hi Mew). Usage statistics aren't really in my opinion enough to justify that Hoopa U is too OP, as EienSeiryuu pointed out some posts ago.
Here's why:
What pepole should really be asking themselves is: "Does Hoopa U wholly warp the current monotype meta?", "Do I find myself packing a Hoopa U specific counter in any monotype team I make?", "Do I find that I need to re-structure my team because it has absolutely no way to deal with the threat that is Hoopa U whilst laddering?" and finally "Does Hoopa U actually completely inhibit me to ladder/win matches?"
I think that if we ask ourselves these sorts of questions, we'll be able to progress much quicker in determining whether or not Hoopa U should be banned. If we take the example of Aegislash being banned from mono-steel.. I personally found that when asking myself if Aegislash warped the metagame beyond proportion, it did. At least on steel teams.
I've been into monotype for a while, albeit I'm not particularly amazing. I'm just really into this metagame and I really like Hoopa's presence and personally don't consider it to be particularly more threatening than Kyurem-B, M-Sableye or other such outstanding mons that can make a significant difference in any matchup.
Food for thought gents
There's been a lot of comments which mostly refer to Hoopa U being a threat because of its predictability, followed by a load of statistics and what not. So I just want to address this real quick.
I agree with Dream Eater Gengar in one of his first posts that actually Hoopa U is very predictable. Hoopa U isn't the first pokemon to have a very wide move pool, and especially not the first on mono-psychic anyway (hi Mew). Usage statistics aren't really in my opinion enough to justify that Hoopa U is too OP, as EienSeiryuu pointed out some posts ago.
Here's why:
- On one hand, the best teams out there are the ones that have distinctly particular sets which catch the majority of opponents expecting predictable pokemon off-guard. This would support the idea that the more unpredictable the pokemon is, the more it stimulates the player, the match and the metagame in general. ie - unpredictability is good.
- On the other hand, it's debatable that the majority of people who use Hoopa U share a very similar move set. I personally have Knock Off as opposed to HF on my mono-psychic Hoopa U. I also carry Drain Punch, Gunk Shot and Trick. It's a jolly scarfed Hoopa U. It would take about 2 turns for an opponent to realise this. If predictability was an issue before, it isn't anymore because empirical data shows us that in practice, Hoopa U IS predictable. Heck, you could probably guess what kind of Hoopa U you're facing by looking at team preview.
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You're probably not stupid IronicNinja, the thing is that their overall usage (so measured vs the usage of every other pokemon in the game) is limited by the use of their type. Pokemon found on commonly used types will have a higher usage OVERALL. Think about how common Ice & Dragon are as types (ice is 2.28% in Feb 2016). So not suuuuuper common. However, I'd argue that Kyurem B is a staple on most mono-dragon and mono-Ice teams (for both he's found to be used around 79/80% of the time).
What pepole should really be asking themselves is: "Does Hoopa U wholly warp the current monotype meta?", "Do I find myself packing a Hoopa U specific counter in any monotype team I make?", "Do I find that I need to re-structure my team because it has absolutely no way to deal with the threat that is Hoopa U whilst laddering?" and finally "Does Hoopa U actually completely inhibit me to ladder/win matches?"
I think that if we ask ourselves these sorts of questions, we'll be able to progress much quicker in determining whether or not Hoopa U should be banned. If we take the example of Aegislash being banned from mono-steel.. I personally found that when asking myself if Aegislash warped the metagame beyond proportion, it did. At least on steel teams.
I've been into monotype for a while, albeit I'm not particularly amazing. I'm just really into this metagame and I really like Hoopa's presence and personally don't consider it to be particularly more threatening than Kyurem-B, M-Sableye or other such outstanding mons that can make a significant difference in any matchup.
Food for thought gents
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Okay so as I have seen so far, Hoopa has a plethora of sets and coverage it can run on Psychic-type teams. Therefore, if it wants to take down a certain Pokemon, it will, in most cases, will succeed at doing that, which will give the rest of the teammates an easier time to deal with it. The problem of Hoopa is definitely determining its set, making you lose one or two Pokemon in the process. This, in my opinion, makes Hoopa comparable to Kyurem-Black, but we must consider that the stats of Hoopa are in no way in par with Kyurem. Hoopa is definitely more threatening and possess more wall breaking capabilities. Hoopa on Psychic is definitely broken.
The only thing that makes Hoopa not broken is that how much Dark-type needs it in order to beat Sub+CM Keldeo. I really think this is a fucking joke. If you're running a Dark-type team, you better have things that can take care of Keldeo. Try mix defensive Mandibuzz for instance, with Mega Sableye, you don't need Mandibuzz to check Fighting-types, and you have Crawdaunt and Tyranitar to check Fire-types too. The people who says that Dark-type needs Hoopa are just hesitant on changing their entire team for the sake of Keldeo. Ice-types get destroyed by Mega Scizor and they run retarded stuff like Max Def Specs HP Fire Rotom-F, and mix defensive Mandibuzz isn't even retarded.
Definitely voting ban on Hoopa-Unbound
The only thing that makes Hoopa not broken is that how much Dark-type needs it in order to beat Sub+CM Keldeo. I really think this is a fucking joke. If you're running a Dark-type team, you better have things that can take care of Keldeo. Try mix defensive Mandibuzz for instance, with Mega Sableye, you don't need Mandibuzz to check Fighting-types, and you have Crawdaunt and Tyranitar to check Fire-types too. The people who says that Dark-type needs Hoopa are just hesitant on changing their entire team for the sake of Keldeo. Ice-types get destroyed by Mega Scizor and they run retarded stuff like Max Def Specs HP Fire Rotom-F, and mix defensive Mandibuzz isn't even retarded.
Definitely voting ban on Hoopa-Unbound
Since when does hoopa make you lose one to two pokemon everytime it comes in. That's such a naive thing to say feen and you know it. You used the same logic for daunt in UU and it didn't even come close to being banned. We shouldn't be trying to run away from things that can pick apart balance when played well. Balance has been a predominant style between the mid to higher level types for all of ORAS and when we come across something that can pick it apart, we run away from it. The whole "it gets a kill everytime it comes in" is pretty stupid because in hindsight ur saying that hoopa has this ungodly ability to stay healthy and can find its way in and and out of battles multiple times. Yes, if you can pull doubles with hoopa, good job, you made a prediction, that is healthy for a tier and ur putting yourself in a good position to win a game based on ur own battling skills.
Other than doubling and momentum, hoopa has a somewhat difficult time finding its way into play with its poor defenses and openness to status from any wall. And if you give me the "oh i can just click u turn with my victini and get it in a bunch lol," than id probably cry because clicking u turn thinking ur always going to predict ur opp successfully is stupid. Every type has at least 2 offensive checks to it so no, maybe it gets 1 kill when it finds its way in, but certainly not 2. If it gets 2 kills without a player being able to revenge it then that is simply just poor battling on a players part because every type has completely viable ways of revenge killing it and in no circumstance should it be racking up kills in 1 sitting. predicting its set can be tricky but is it really as hard as you say it is? if someone brings a hoopa in against a skarm, no shit, ur getting dark pulsed, if it gets brought in against a zapdos (which is dumb anyways because ur risking a chance of getting parad of volt switched on) then ur most likely holding a knock off or a H fury to the mouth. Now, theres not much you can do about it but fuck, you know what its going to do to you right? Is it THAT hard to figure out that if someone brings in a hoopa against a clefable that its probably going to gunk shot you?
I have said this a lot already but I will say it again. This tier looks so much better with hoopa in it than without it. Every type has found and continues to find ways to play around hoopa and take advantage of it. Every single type. There is absolutely no reason to ban it, we've already adapted to it. Yeah psy is a powerhouse for sure, but its not this fucking god type that if u use it you are going to just eat every other type alive because you have access to hoopa. Its like 4-3 rn in mpl and hoopa hasn't even been that prominent in any of the battles. For sure, its an extremely successful ladder type and its a surefire way to get past 1500+ but it's not like hoopa carries you there, psy does that without hoopa anyways. Its just already been in the tier for so long and I just don't see a reason to ban it.
Other than doubling and momentum, hoopa has a somewhat difficult time finding its way into play with its poor defenses and openness to status from any wall. And if you give me the "oh i can just click u turn with my victini and get it in a bunch lol," than id probably cry because clicking u turn thinking ur always going to predict ur opp successfully is stupid. Every type has at least 2 offensive checks to it so no, maybe it gets 1 kill when it finds its way in, but certainly not 2. If it gets 2 kills without a player being able to revenge it then that is simply just poor battling on a players part because every type has completely viable ways of revenge killing it and in no circumstance should it be racking up kills in 1 sitting. predicting its set can be tricky but is it really as hard as you say it is? if someone brings a hoopa in against a skarm, no shit, ur getting dark pulsed, if it gets brought in against a zapdos (which is dumb anyways because ur risking a chance of getting parad of volt switched on) then ur most likely holding a knock off or a H fury to the mouth. Now, theres not much you can do about it but fuck, you know what its going to do to you right? Is it THAT hard to figure out that if someone brings in a hoopa against a clefable that its probably going to gunk shot you?
I have said this a lot already but I will say it again. This tier looks so much better with hoopa in it than without it. Every type has found and continues to find ways to play around hoopa and take advantage of it. Every single type. There is absolutely no reason to ban it, we've already adapted to it. Yeah psy is a powerhouse for sure, but its not this fucking god type that if u use it you are going to just eat every other type alive because you have access to hoopa. Its like 4-3 rn in mpl and hoopa hasn't even been that prominent in any of the battles. For sure, its an extremely successful ladder type and its a surefire way to get past 1500+ but it's not like hoopa carries you there, psy does that without hoopa anyways. Its just already been in the tier for so long and I just don't see a reason to ban it.
Your argument here isn't particularly great.
First of all, looking at: "Okay so as I have seen so far, Hoopa has a plethora of sets and coverage it can run on Psychic-type teams. Therefore, if it wants to take down a certain Pokemon, it will, in most cases, will succeed at doing that, which will give the rest of the teammates an easier time to deal with it."
How is this not the case for a plethora of other pokemon? I can apply the same rationale to Scizor on steel/bug teams. Bulky scizor with defog, mega scizor, Banded, the sets go on and on. if it wants to take down a certain Pokemon, it will, in most cases, will succeed at doing that, which will give the rest of the teammates an easier time to deal with it. No shit, isn't that the point of any offensive pokemon at all? Now some will say "oooooh but Scizor has a 4x weakness to fire tyyyyype". Oh because Hoopa doesn't have that 4x weakness to bug? Which btw is the type for the move U-turn which is like the most common move ever after stealth rocks (probably not but you get my drift). U-turn hits hoopa at its weak Defence stat and is almost always a guaranteed OHKO.
Secondly, if there really were better options for Dark to take on certain threats, Dark-type players would surely use them. You can't justify banning a pokemon if there are better options. wtf
Thirdly and most importantly, your argument is only valid if indeed a Dark type is composed by AT LEAST a M-Sableye, MixDef Buzz and Crawdaunt/TTar etc etc etc. So.... "The people who says that Dark-type needs Hoopa are just hesitant on changing their entire team for the sake of Keldeo" really translates to "you have no choice but to use these particular mons on your team otherwise you'll get rekd m8". Bye bye creativity I guess. Also, I don't want to change my entire team for the sake of Keldeo, that's against the point of Monotype, where you don't find a Keldeo on every team and every single battle, so by changing an entire team to take out that one pokemon, you're leaving yourself full of holes and weaknesses to other pokemon.
Overall, why would you NEED to replace one pokemon's role with a more than one pokemon? This is inefficient and displays an underlying flaw in Dark-type imo. Looking at pokemon banned from Dark in the past, Hoopa's influence doesn't come close to greninja's.
I can't be bothered to meet the voting requirements, but if I was voting, it would be a definite NO BAN
3 sets and coverage are literally the same.
No I don't get your drift, U-Turn is run by Fire, Flying (Not really unless you run Lando-T which is like rare af right now since offensive sets are more common), Bug, Psychic, Poison (Only if Mega Beedrill but Psy is killing it if Scoli is gone). Which is like 5/18 types, it's not common rofl.
Then don't complain that Dark needs it when there are other options to deal with threats.
Good luck dealing with Kyurem-B with Fly if you dont have an Ice neutrality, good luck dealing with Scizor with Ice if you dont have HP Fire Defensive Specs Rotom. Good luck dealing with Bug if you dont have Blue Flare Victini. I don't really know what you meant by this, because your argument is very very flawed.
Idk man gimme Zard X back I won't bother complaining about Kyurem-Black. Idk man give me Zekrom I won't bother complaining about beating Zapdos with Electric. Idk man give me Genesect I won't bother complaining about beating Flying with Bug. Greninja had shitty bulk but it got banned due to its insane speed and ability. Hoopa has insane attacking stats and great spd stat and can kill w/e it targets. How is it different lmao?
Percentages: 57% of the votes were for Unban, which means Crawdaunt will be unbanned from BL by a simple majority.
LMAO how is that healthy? Psychic has a great U-Turn user in Victini which should be in 100% of teams and it can get a free U-Turn 80% of the time because u dont wanna take a V-Create, giving Hoopa an easy kill. You don't suspect Pokemon based on low ladder nerds, you obviously base it on higher ladder and watching more competent people play.
Lmao the irony, first para u complain about playing flawlessly and now ur teaching them how to play flawlessly. Ever heard of Mix Hoopa that can dismantle Skarm+Dos? What about Dark vs Psy? It's literally Hoopa vs Hoopa. What about Steel vs Hoopa? Hoopa can 6-0 easily. I'm sure you're more experienced in Monotype than I am at the moment, but really you should consider thinking more before trying to make a valid argument.
Yeah in that case don't ban Kyurem-W on Ice because it cant beat every type. In that case unban Greninja because it cant beat every type. Steel gets 6-0ed by steelbreaker Hoopa btw, seriously, if you don't see a reason to ban Hoopa, you did nothing but disappoint me. The only reason Hoopa isnt that prominent in MPL is because everyone prepares for it (shows how centralizing it is).
"You dont suspect a mon based off of low ladder, you base it off of higher ladder and more competant play" - Thats literally what I said. I explained that it hasn't been prominent in mpl and that psychic has an average record. That tells me that higher level of play has no trouble with hoopa's abilities on psychic and it tells me you are blowing ur points out of proportion.
"The only reason that it isnt prominent in mpl is because everyone prepares for it, which means it's centralizing." - Lol? God forbid players have to prepare for certain mons in important tour games. A mon that can easily be prepared for as well. In no way at all is that centralizing and there is nothing you can say to me that will make it centralizing. Im also 99% sure that you actually didnt watch any of the mpl replays with psy and that you are just making a blind assumption that anybody who battled had to over prep for hoopa. Unfortunately for you, that actually didnt happen and the teams people used against psy were not centralized around hoppa at all, it simply just hasn't performed that well so far. Good try though.
"What about dark vs psy? Its literally hoopa vs hoopa. Hoopa can 6-0 steel easily." - Im not sure where you are going with hoopa destroying dark. Garde is the only saving grace for psy in that matchup. Hoopa has a tough time breaking through mandibuzz and dark has a plethora of offensive checks for hoopa so once again, no idea where you were going with that statement. Yeah there are steel breaker hoopa sets but it doesn't just outright 6-0 steel as easily as you say it does. Yet another naive statement from you that is completely and utterly just not true. ONCE AGAIN, steel has the ability to pressure the fuck out of hoopa with it molding into a more offensive type in the recent meta shift. Any slight chip damage on hoopa and ur in bp range, scarf exca and any jirachi set ohkos you or in rachis case, it just gets a free u turn on hoopa and nabs momentum putting the steel user in a good spot. (There is my referances of hoopa being easily taken advantage of) if at any point doublade finds an SD psy just clicks X without a melo. Have fun leading with it as well, you can hold a brave bird to the face. Bisharp is just dumb 50/50s so I wont use it against you but I guess it pressures hoopa a bit. So no, hoopa does not "6-0 steel easily." Good try though.
I have no knowledge of gren and kyu W meta so ill let somebody else adress that even though im like 90% sure they got banned for making certain types unviable which hoopa simply doesnt do. So what you said about them is probably not true either.
"The only reason that it isnt prominent in mpl is because everyone prepares for it, which means it's centralizing." - Lol? God forbid players have to prepare for certain mons in important tour games. A mon that can easily be prepared for as well. In no way at all is that centralizing and there is nothing you can say to me that will make it centralizing. Im also 99% sure that you actually didnt watch any of the mpl replays with psy and that you are just making a blind assumption that anybody who battled had to over prep for hoopa. Unfortunately for you, that actually didnt happen and the teams people used against psy were not centralized around hoppa at all, it simply just hasn't performed that well so far. Good try though.
"What about dark vs psy? Its literally hoopa vs hoopa. Hoopa can 6-0 steel easily." - Im not sure where you are going with hoopa destroying dark. Garde is the only saving grace for psy in that matchup. Hoopa has a tough time breaking through mandibuzz and dark has a plethora of offensive checks for hoopa so once again, no idea where you were going with that statement. Yeah there are steel breaker hoopa sets but it doesn't just outright 6-0 steel as easily as you say it does. Yet another naive statement from you that is completely and utterly just not true. ONCE AGAIN, steel has the ability to pressure the fuck out of hoopa with it molding into a more offensive type in the recent meta shift. Any slight chip damage on hoopa and ur in bp range, scarf exca and any jirachi set ohkos you or in rachis case, it just gets a free u turn on hoopa and nabs momentum putting the steel user in a good spot. (There is my referances of hoopa being easily taken advantage of) if at any point doublade finds an SD psy just clicks X without a melo. Have fun leading with it as well, you can hold a brave bird to the face. Bisharp is just dumb 50/50s so I wont use it against you but I guess it pressures hoopa a bit. So no, hoopa does not "6-0 steel easily." Good try though.
I have no knowledge of gren and kyu W meta so ill let somebody else adress that even though im like 90% sure they got banned for making certain types unviable which hoopa simply doesnt do. So what you said about them is probably not true either.
I'm not going to take a side yet because I'm honestly undecided at the moment, but I can say with certainty that Hoopa-U is not an autowin against Steel. There are plenty of ways to deal with it. Just the ones that I've found are offensive Cobalion (I'm pretty sure it can live a Hyperspace Fury and KO Hoopa in return, especially after the Justified boost and Hoopa-U's defense drop. Idk if it would live Drain Punch or a special Psychic attack and I'm on mobile so I can't check calcs. You could even give it X-scissor for a guaranteed OHKO), X-scissor on Scarf Excadrill (I don't like Rapid Spin as its 4th move anyway), Scarf U-turn Jirachi, and of course Mega Scizor (the only Steel mega that I've seen used in high level play. It probably won't live a Fire Punch, but if Hoopa gets locked into a move that won't KO Scizor, the Steel user can predict a switch and set up Swords Dance to sweep the opponent or you could go for the KO with Bug Bite, which will do some serious damage to Victini too if the Psychic user decides to switch to it).
Again, I'm impartial at the moment and I don't know what I'll vote for in the end, but I just wanted to say that Steel can certainly deal with Hoopa-U.
EDIT: The above post was not taking Hoopa-U's Steel Breaker set into account. I was unaware the set existed until just a moment ago.
Again, I'm impartial at the moment and I don't know what I'll vote for in the end, but I just wanted to say that Steel can certainly deal with Hoopa-U.
EDIT: The above post was not taking Hoopa-U's Steel Breaker set into account. I was unaware the set existed until just a moment ago.
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Was talking about the steelbreaker set bro, the one with Sub HP Fire Drain Punch and Dark Pulse
Actually I've found Hoopa-U very difficult to deal with when using balanced steel because it can destroy steel's defensive core very easily. Scizor can at least break Hoopa's sub but in return it gets killed by hp fire or fire punch. Bisharp/Scarf Exca/Scarf Jirachi can also revenge it, but again the substitute makes things very difficult since it can sub up on so much. In return steel can threaten to sweep with Bisharp (relies on 50/50s) or Doublade. Not really gonna say if Hoopa is broken or not, just wanted to say that Hoopa is indeed hard to deal with. Scarf Hoopa on psychic is pretty bad tbh. HO Steel can deal with Hoopa without too much trouble though.
I didn't know that set existed tbh. I've never seen it, but I can't immediately think of a way for Steel to deal with it once it's behind a sub either... I guess the "Steel Breaker" name is appropriate 0_o
Well that just rendered my entire post pointless lol, but thanks for correcting me. I'll have to take that into account.
A cool set but not nearly as common as it was when hoopa was first released for sure so totally understanable that u didnt know about it. I remember helping kai come up with that set too. Plus i think alot of people realized that sets coverage isnt that great either so they went different routes like gunk shot to hit fairys.
Though I'm not good enough to participate in the vote but I still have my right to express my opinion, have I?
In my personal opinion Hoopa-U as an individual pokemon is not that threatening, its sets/items are quite predictable now at this point and its defensive stat is low enough that scarf u-turn Celebi with modest nature can OHKO it as below:
0- Atk Celebi U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 308-364 (102.3 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(308, 312, 316, 320, 320, 324, 328, 332, 336, 340, 344, 348, 352, 356, 360, 364)
even my laughable blossom can do a considerable damage to it when play right.
That being said, I agree with Azelea though, regarding about the "psychic's offensive core" which comprise of victini, mega garde/cham or gallade gives psychic a lot of power. Since I primary use grass, even before it released I have to add shiftry to combat against psychic better because even that point psychic core was already fearsome and troublesome enough to battle against (at least for me i.e. scarf vicitni, mega cham/garde). Though I feel sorry for dark type for the lose of such good pokemon of their type, if Hoopa-U get banned. Although, I can't comment much on what will become of dark type since I never use it but banning Hoopa-U will give lower tier(grass in my case) a bit better chance when going up against psychic.
In conclusion, if I could vote, as an individual pokemon I would vote for not ban. However, when combine with the elements from its team members, it makes what already op type become even more solidly op, I don't think banishing it would affect much on psychic type and dark will just go back and play like they used to before it was released so as psychic, imo.
P.S. Sorry for bad english and please be kind and polite if you going to correct my grammar or whatsoever.
In my personal opinion Hoopa-U as an individual pokemon is not that threatening, its sets/items are quite predictable now at this point and its defensive stat is low enough that scarf u-turn Celebi with modest nature can OHKO it as below:
0- Atk Celebi U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 308-364 (102.3 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(308, 312, 316, 320, 320, 324, 328, 332, 336, 340, 344, 348, 352, 356, 360, 364)
even my laughable blossom can do a considerable damage to it when play right.
That being said, I agree with Azelea though, regarding about the "psychic's offensive core" which comprise of victini, mega garde/cham or gallade gives psychic a lot of power. Since I primary use grass, even before it released I have to add shiftry to combat against psychic better because even that point psychic core was already fearsome and troublesome enough to battle against (at least for me i.e. scarf vicitni, mega cham/garde). Though I feel sorry for dark type for the lose of such good pokemon of their type, if Hoopa-U get banned. Although, I can't comment much on what will become of dark type since I never use it but banning Hoopa-U will give lower tier(grass in my case) a bit better chance when going up against psychic.
In conclusion, if I could vote, as an individual pokemon I would vote for not ban. However, when combine with the elements from its team members, it makes what already op type become even more solidly op, I don't think banishing it would affect much on psychic type and dark will just go back and play like they used to before it was released so as psychic, imo.
P.S. Sorry for bad english and please be kind and polite if you going to correct my grammar or whatsoever.
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