Excadrill isn't broken.
Excadrill in Sand is.. Manageable.
Excadrill in 8 turns sand, is too good.
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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
- Thread starter ryan
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Excadrill in Sand is.. Manageable.
Excadrill in 8 turns sand, is too good.
It's neither Excadrill nor Sand that is broken, it's Excadrill + Sand.
While outright banning Excadrill
would eliminate the problem, looking for smaller changes that still fix the problem would only be the proper way to go. That way, we can avoid possible nerfs to the type that have the potential to create excessive bad matchups and whatnot.
While outright banning Excadrill
would eliminate the problem, looking for smaller changes that still fix the problem would only be the proper way to go. That way, we can avoid possible nerfs to the type that have the potential to create excessive bad matchups and whatnot.
I think maybe a ban on Sand Rush for Excadrill would solve this problem as, Choice Scarf Sand Force, or Mold Breaker work as effective Revenge Killers and to a very much so lesser extent, sweepers. In Exchange for losing a crap ton of speed you gain either power, or the ability to hit Rotom-Wash, and other levitators with an Earthquake. This still benefits Ground yet, does not allow Excadrill to destroy a few types. I think people forget that Excadrill is not the only Ground Pokémon that benefits from sand. Garchomp-Mega, Sash Endeavor Mamoswine, and few others do as well. I think banning smooth rock would be a nerf to Ground as, it would only let them have 4 turns of sand, and in my opinion that is not enough to get very much done.
I like what SirSkit said as, this is a much smaller change that would still nerf Ground yet, it would not nerf Pokemon such as Garchomp-Mega as collateral damage. If smooth rock was banned I would honestly use Choice Scarf Garchomp, and AV Excadrill with Mold Breaker. This is just my opinion and my opinion can be changed so, please try and do so as, so far I have kept to my opinion. I do like a lot of the points that have been brought up, but this I feel that not sufficient enough information has been giving for me to completely decide on what I would rather as, I have said before I do not use Ground.
I honestly do not want collateral damage in the form of nerfing sand on Ground teams. I think the Speed is the main problem. So, let's ban Sand Rush Excadrill, this should be more than enough.
I like what SirSkit said as, this is a much smaller change that would still nerf Ground yet, it would not nerf Pokemon such as Garchomp-Mega as collateral damage. If smooth rock was banned I would honestly use Choice Scarf Garchomp, and AV Excadrill with Mold Breaker. This is just my opinion and my opinion can be changed so, please try and do so as, so far I have kept to my opinion. I do like a lot of the points that have been brought up, but this I feel that not sufficient enough information has been giving for me to completely decide on what I would rather as, I have said before I do not use Ground.
I honestly do not want collateral damage in the form of nerfing sand on Ground teams. I think the Speed is the main problem. So, let's ban Sand Rush Excadrill, this should be more than enough.
There's the problem that we don't want to make bans that are too complicated - banning Greninja as a whole rather than Protean is an example of this.
The issue with that, however, is the absolute disdain that all of Smogon carries for complex bans. There have been many situations where a complex ban would be preferable, but were avoided. The ban in question to achieve what you recommend would therefore be only Sand Rush. Admittedly the difference is minimal, but it is there. Banning Sand Rush and Excadrill as a combination will also take away the ability for a person to run Sandstorm as an effective fourth move on non-choice Excadrill.
Well, the matchup tables may not be perfect, but they do have important information. The extremity to which Ground has the advantage in given matchups shown on these tables far surpasses the point at which we can dismiss them. That level of extremity shows that Ground truthfully has potential to act as somewhat of an inhibitor of skill's role in a game. Yes, the ground player may very easily be a skilled player, able to combat their disadvantages with great ease and precision. However, these incredibly biased matchups will naturally put ground very far ahead from the beginning of the game, and weaker types simply may not be able to cope. The skill gap required for the player with the disadvantaged type to win in some of these games is astronomical. This is why I support three possible outcomes. Banning Smooth Rock (admittedly not my favorite outcome), banning Landorus-I on Ground, or (at absolute minimum) banning Gravity.
Regarding people's arguments against the ban:
Naming Pokemon that are only able to shakily check Excadrill once by barely living a hit and without any means of recovery is not enough to justify your argument. The fact of the matter is that Excadrill is always free to switch out on these Pokemon, especially when Ground has one of the most annoying defensive beasts in the tier in Hippowdon. With this being said, if that 'check' or 'counter' happens to be your only one, any decent Ground user will know that they will have to weaken it, and it won't be hard with Hazards and Sandstorm damage and the best special wall breaker in the tier (Landorus) and one of the best mixed wallbreakers in the tier (Mega Garchomp) and a pokemon that perfectly parallels Excadrill's checks and wears them down (Mamoswine).
You really can't continue giving poor examples of would-be checks to Excadrill without considering the whole team. Ground teams as it stands provide far too much reward with very little risk. You can use the exact same team as everyone else, and everyone you play will already know your whole team, but they can't do anything about it. It simply comes down to Excadrill being a win button with no consequence. 8 turns of being faster than the whole tier along with being able to OHKO damn near all of them is too much. For those of your comparing Smooth Stone to Damp Rock, yes Water had more Swift Swim users, but in reality most Swift Swim teams only carried at most two Pokemon to abuse it, and the rain only lasted enough for one of them anyways.
Being resistant to Stealth Rock with two fantastic walls with reliable recovery and along with three tremendous wallbreakers is too much along with Excadrill. As shown by Ground having by far the best matchups in the tier while also being the most one dimensional (6 Pokemon with over 50% usage..), something needs to be done.
Looking at Nani's monotype tiering philosophy:
I do understand when people say that banning Smooth Rock might not even fix the problem, but it is an experiment to find out a way to nerf Ground, and it is better than doing nothing. Something needs to be done. Rather than jumping to ban Excadrill right way, we should see if banning Smooth Rock fixes the problem.
this is also kind of sad: http://prntscr.com/758v0q
Naming Pokemon that are only able to shakily check Excadrill once by barely living a hit and without any means of recovery is not enough to justify your argument. The fact of the matter is that Excadrill is always free to switch out on these Pokemon, especially when Ground has one of the most annoying defensive beasts in the tier in Hippowdon. With this being said, if that 'check' or 'counter' happens to be your only one, any decent Ground user will know that they will have to weaken it, and it won't be hard with Hazards and Sandstorm damage and the best special wall breaker in the tier (Landorus) and one of the best mixed wallbreakers in the tier (Mega Garchomp) and a pokemon that perfectly parallels Excadrill's checks and wears them down (Mamoswine).
You really can't continue giving poor examples of would-be checks to Excadrill without considering the whole team. Ground teams as it stands provide far too much reward with very little risk. You can use the exact same team as everyone else, and everyone you play will already know your whole team, but they can't do anything about it. It simply comes down to Excadrill being a win button with no consequence. 8 turns of being faster than the whole tier along with being able to OHKO damn near all of them is too much. For those of your comparing Smooth Stone to Damp Rock, yes Water had more Swift Swim users, but in reality most Swift Swim teams only carried at most two Pokemon to abuse it, and the rain only lasted enough for one of them anyways.
Being resistant to Stealth Rock with two fantastic walls with reliable recovery and along with three tremendous wallbreakers is too much along with Excadrill. As shown by Ground having by far the best matchups in the tier while also being the most one dimensional (6 Pokemon with over 50% usage..), something needs to be done.
Looking at Nani's monotype tiering philosophy:
Excadrill + Sandstorm can easily be justified to violate both 1 and 2.Nani Man said:
I do understand when people say that banning Smooth Rock might not even fix the problem, but it is an experiment to find out a way to nerf Ground, and it is better than doing nothing. Something needs to be done. Rather than jumping to ban Excadrill right way, we should see if banning Smooth Rock fixes the problem.
this is also kind of sad: http://prntscr.com/758v0q
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DoW
formally Death on Wings
You don't understand. It's not that the tables aren't good for seeing how good a matchup is, they're very good for that. What the tables can't tell us is how good a type's matchups are in general. If there's a lot of dark green spots, that doesn't mean it's a very good type, but rather that it does very well in certain matchups compared to how well it does in other matchups. Often, having a lot of dark green is a bad thing, because that means the type's games are more matchup dependant, without actually meaning it does particularly well at all. As the GXEs from Antar's post showed (if you look at the post I linked to), there is very little difference in GXE between types meaning a very little difference between win rates between types. That's not to say that all types are equally good, simply that our stats can't show how good the types are (and even if they did, there's a very real chance that it simply shows how good the players are who use the type rather than how good the type itself is). So, pointing to that line in the matchups chart shows only one thing: That the person using the data didn't understand it.
Who's "we"? afaik it's smogtard hypocrite and arbitrary decision when it comes to OU bans. Don't know why you wanna follow the sloppery slope in mono as well? Like Exca got banned in gen 5 as a whole when it was the sand rush ability that made it "broken" (it wasn't even broken, ppl that played stall didn't like a good spinner in OU that's all). But then, they banned Swift Swim + Drizzle rofl. This gen they went full tard mode banning Baton Pass on 3 pokes to then take a dump on the suspect decision and go like "nah, let's make it restricted to one member only". So don't come rehashing dumb policies. Bans are made to sorta balance a meta from something that has few ways around it. No one is invoking complex or simple bans. A ban should be a ban
The "oh no it only uses 6 pokemon thing" is a trend we can see in 2 of our really fucking good types with really fucking good cores. Excluding Megagross, is there anything inherently broken about the steel core? Following the Aegislash ban, Steel still topped usage, and the core is still used widely, yet nobody complains, because the bit that pushed the core over the edge isn't there. When something did arrive to push the core over the edge in the name of Megagross, it received a wallop from the ban hammer, and now Steel is back to the point where it's good, but not too good.
In Flying, we see a similar trend. I believe a large majority of the community was convinced flying needed a hit, commanding both high usage and really good matchups vs the metagame, but nothing on this flying core was inherently broken. Something had to go, though, and Zapdos took the hit. Honestly, I never found much of an issue with flying, but I run BoltBeam and Kyurem-Black, so that's probably biased. It was also a wise decision to hit the defensive part of flying, because if we banned something such as MegaZardX or Lando-T or Mega Gyara, flying has SO MANY DAMN OPTIONS to fill that gap with. Removing a bit of its defensive capability was a good thing to do. Now we can see Flying is still a respectable metagame force but nothing similar to what it was earlier.
Now, when I look at ground, I see something similar to that of Flying. Nothing here is inherently broken, hell, even Sand Rush Excadrill is managaeable, but the sum of its parts is simply too good. Types that handle one or two of the offensive powerhouses (Garchomp, Landorus, Mamoswine, Excadrill) often lose to the others. Poison, for example, can handle Excadrill and that's well and dandy until Landorus comes in and sweeps your sorry ass. Dragon can handle Excadrill, Landorus, and Garchomp, but when a Mamoswine comes in, what do you do? Kyurem only has so much recovery if you even run a defensive set (a whopping 12.5% of users run roost, friends, and Healing Wish is a one-off thing). I can't really think of a situation where Garchomp, Mega or otherwise, is the end for a type, but I can say that in Sand, Mega Garchomp is a fantastic beatstick. Sand Force, while certainly not the free STAB rain provides, doubles the power of Earthquake and boosts Stone Edge to that of fucking Outrage. Defensively speaking, Hippowdon responds to physical hits like a big blob of Jell-O and Gastrodon can eat Special attacks for days. Not really anything to say there.
If somebody told me they thought all of the pokemon used on a standard ground team (the aforementioned six) were fantastic pokemon individually, I would agree. If somebody told me they thought using Excadrill with Hippowdon was a good combo, I would agree. If somebody told me either of the aforementioned things were broken, I would have to disagree. They're not broken individually. Hippowdon and Excadrill as one unit can be stopped by a solid physical wall since Hippowdon has no stopping power and typically does not run Toxic. Gastrodon, Garchomp, and Mamoswine are all great, bu they can be countered. Landorus-I is a bit different from its competitors in that it's really fucking good and will always be really fucking good, potentially banworthy, if I do say so myself.
Put all the Pokemon I've mentioned in this post into one team, however, and tell me how they do. The sheer stopping power and speed behind Excadrill is a force to be reckoned with sure, but when you throw Landorus-I for a special beatdown, and Garchomp and Mamoswine for salt in the wound in, that's a really good offensive core. Add in the fact that we play Monotype where not every type has access to something that may check/counter one of the four, and that core goes from really good to amazing. Hippowdon doesn't like ice moves, you say? Cool, good thing Gastrodon is neutral on top of respectable special bulk and the capability to pack toxic to handle walls just in case they decide to switch in. Both walls also have reliable recovery. With both Hippowdon and Gastrodon on one team, it's quite a good core, but when they back up such a blisteringly powerful offensive core that Ground packs, and you've got issues. Incidentally, do you remember what other type ran 2 great walls, and 4 offensive powerhouses (although to be fair some of them could play defensively)? Ding ding ding! You get points if you guessed Flying. What did we do with Flying friends? We nerfed it for being too good as the sum of its parts. And that is the route I believe we should take with Ground, if we do take one at all.
Before we just decide "zer0 just ban exca and smooth rock u stupidhead" and end the conversation, you have to consider what banning a certain thing on a type will accomplish, or, at the very least, provide some conjecture. Sure, you could ban Excadrill, but you still have to deal with 3 other great offensive powerhouses and whatever Ground uses to fill the void. If we banned smooth rock, I'm honestly unconvinced that would solve anything. Sure, you've shortened the turns that MegaChomp and Excadrill have to come in and do major damage, but 3-4 turns is enough to put serious dents in a team, and since Hippowdon can just come back in and reset the sand, and given its great bulk giving it a lot of switchins, it's still problem.exe. So finally, I'd like to determine what I think would be the best to nerf Ground, and that is a ban of the ability Sand Stream/Hippowdon itself. Ground has a lot of offensive options to replace Excadrill with (if they even do), and removing the sand handles so many things that make ground good as a type. Sand Force and Sand Rush become a non-issue. Excadrill, if it's still run, likely takes the same role it does on Steel, which isn't as bad as dealing with Sand Rush. Pushing ground towards a more hyperoffensive teambuild may not be a bad thing, as I think that Dragon and Fighting have proven that while hyperoffense can be good in Monotype, having little in the name of defensive walls to fall back on is not nice and leads to a lot of sacking.
How might ground respond to a Hippowdon ban? First of all, the previously mentioned HO style. Alternatively, they switch to a different wall ie Gliscor or Quagsire, neither of which set sand upon entry, and by extension, are nearly as bad a culprit in the defensive department as Hippowdon.
tl;dr This is a long ass post, I don't blame you. Steel and Flying had something hit with the ban hammer for having cores that are too good, and now it's Ground's turn. Like Flying, Ground is broken as a sum of its parts and not in the presence of individual Pokemon but something must be done to nerf it. It's currently most similar to how Flying was before the Zapdos ban, and letting that influence my decision I have decided that Hippowdon/Sand Stream ban is a good option to knock Ground down a peg as opposed to Excadrill/Smooth Rock, as I remain unconvinced those bans would solve much of anything.
this is a better essay than the ones I wrote for my AP exam today. shit lol
EDIT: 2 is a not a lot
DoW
formally Death on Wings
"Ooh how should I make a post on this website go down well ooh I know I'll just insult like everyone here with no thought-out reasons and without even adding anything to my argument and I won't even be original about it I'll just use insults that have been used a thousand times in the past that'll go down well" - Alexis, probably
By "we", I'm pretty sure RedsCharizard was referring to people in Smogon as a whole, and people discussing tiering here particularly.
The reason we don't want complex bans is that it makes the metagame very complicated and even harder for people to come into when new. Ignoring the fact that you can't see how excadrill was broken when it clearly was, Aldaron's Proposal was an extremely controvercial, and people only agreed to such a complex ban after an incredible amount of debate and argument over it. The baton pass situation was handled well by the council, and I'd like to see you come up with a better way of dealing with it.
Yes, bans are made to balance a meta. But they should also be relatively simple. Banning protean greninja rather than simply greninja makes things needlessly complicated, so shouldn't be done.
Edit: worst 400th post ever
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I can show you an unlimited amount of replays where a threat sweeps, all you have to do is know how to sweep with it. How is excadrill any different then them? Edquake and iron head stab?
Wow mega zard x has a tough claws(Same added damage as Life orb) STAB d-claw and flareblitz(or fire punch) and quake and it dosent need to rely on weather let's ban that also!!
Wow Breloom has 130 base attack(excadrill has 135 barely a difference..) Technician Lifeorb Adamant mach punch that can sweep many many teams and it dosent need to rely on weather let's ban that also!
Wow scizor is the same as loom except it can pull off a swords dance with no effort lets ban that also!
My point is EVERY TYPE HAS THREATS THAT CAN SWEEP YOU. If we didnt have pokemon like that then every team would be stall... Excadrill is no different
As some of you know i'm considered one of the best ice users(#2) and no Excadrill isn't fun, neither is breloom, or scizor, or fighting teams, or 40 more threats. I have never complained once.. I have learned to play against these "threats" and win against steel,ground,fighting ect...
If mega kangaskhan was allowed and you wanted to ban I would say GO FOR IT! because it's not something OU mons and lower can deal with, Excadrill is.
Side note: On more of my grounds then not I DO NOT RUN SMOOTH ROCK.
Just have to interject, Life Orb is a 30% Damage Boost, Tough Claws is 33%, but to specific moves over every move being used. It's not a massive difference but it is there. I'll let someone else handle the rest of this, I'm too tired to bring up a legitimate, cohesive argument, just felt the need to point that out.
Exactly what I meant. Some rules are/were decided in the worst arbitrary way and just because we are all writing on a sub forum from said page doesn't mean we represent or back up everything that's being done here. I thought that as a sorta separate, small but growing community (mono) we could come up with stuff on our own an not waiting on Haunter or alexwolf's opinion on the matter. So sorry if you feel insulted by me saying Smogon is this or that. I've never seen myself associated to the page I write. Like if someone has some beef with Reddit I wouldn't take it personally. I guess it's a little different over here...
DoW
formally Death on Wings
Honestly we are doing things in a very different way to other metas, in having separate banlists for each type. And while it's justified, the complexity of the bans hasn't gone unnoticed:
Moreover, while it's good to have bans of our own, and to some extent do them in our own way, the bans for OU and the other main tiers are done that way for a good reason. Wanting to be independant isn't really a good enough reason to break away in the first place, but even if it was then exactly what is it we're breaking away from? A well-thought-out system that hundreds have contributed towards that leads to the best possible metagame for everyone? The reason Haunter and Alexwolf have those opinions are because they have been playing this game for years and know what they're doing.
Sorry if this sounds a little angry or salty, I guess I just get annoyed when people come in and insult others for no real reason, then suggest unintelligent ideas to replace well thought-out ones, all the while treating everyone else as though they were idiots <_<
Considering i didn't play ground since a time but all others type, i can say you my arguments aren't subjective.
My favorite type is ground, i am knew with it, ok, but it doesn't mind i want all broken things for this type because i prefer have a correct metagame, thing, you don't want believe when i see your answer about mine.
Let me say you something too:
I was became #1 on the ladder with Electric, next Ground, next Normal, next Psychic, next water, next Dragons, next fighting, next steel, next (cancer) Water and i'm finnaly #1 with Semi-Stall Flying.
Excadrill was released for all type i was became first on the ladd.
So, i thing i'm objective and i know how counter Excadrill here.
So, let me answer to yours:
1) Azumarill just sweep alone ground team if he is well set up.
So, yeah, Ground struggle with Fairy.
2) Back to time now, remember Imperium team, remember Jak.
This guy was the best Fire user in PS (no offense Aubby) and i've played a lot of game with him (Ground against Fire) and he won sometimes.
So, this is the best argument for fire against Ground Smooth Rock Excadrill i can give you.
You can defeat Ground with Fire if you play well.
But some people are lazy to try to play well and want ban all very good cores.
3) For you example against Ice, please, i've given Cloyster example.
Next Avalugg can resist to Excadrill Iron Head like you've showed it.
Next EQ of Avalugg: 0 Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 248-294 (68.5 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
So we admit that Excadrill killed Avalugg.
He lost 20% with Life Orb (2moves) and you add 68.5-81.2%. → 88.5-101.2%
You know what to do, Ice Shard and you can sweep Ground team.
But it's weird, you didn't notice it. You'll probably say "You're wrong with your argument".
Ok, let me saying you i've done a lot of game with Ground against ICE and it is really worked.
So, another arguments failed for you.
4) Flying.
You're adding again new condition, it's a lot of condition Lando-Gravity, Smooth Rock, Excadrill Sand Rush LO.
But ok, i'm fine, Lando? He's ct by Articuno.
Excadrill? He's owned by Gliscor.
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 148-175 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 312-368 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO → With LO damage → 75% to OHKO Excadrill.
Result? Flying can easily check and i know it well because i'm playing flying atm and still being #1 on the ladd.
5)Dark:
Please, stop saying stupid things, Pika can tell you he can check this core.
Crawdaunt sweep all the Ground team if he succes to just set up one DD or SD.
It won't be Landorus who can resist to it even not Hippo.
Mandibuzz Foul Play is too a thing. Like Sableye-M.
6) Cofragigus never used?
23%, and one guys of Dusk (Chleg) who has been #5 on ladd used Cofragigus, so, i can ask you, so you know really the metagame or just saying things like this?
For others calc, you 're just saying i'm right for ghost.
7) Fighting has a huge advantage with Keldeo Breloom, when i was saying i consider Fighting like a weakness for Ground and IMP time, i forbid the using of Breloom-Keldeo, it was because Fighting is really a weakness for ground, with M-Gallade, it's worst than before.
Ice Punch power + Mach Punch + Keldeo Sub CM + Hawlucha + Breloom → You've just lost. (If your opponent doesn't play like a noob of course :) ).
8) According with All Fall Down and others good guys with who i've talked, Mew can check the most of the team for ground.
So, Psychic is enough strong to counter Excradrill-Lando.
9) People who use Diancie-M instead M-Aggron are wrong because Diancie can't counter most of Rocks weakness like M-Aggron.
But anyway, it's a match up, so, Rock lost with or without Excradrill.
Discussion about Exca for this type is useless.
10) Steel → Nidoking can kill all the team without Excadrill.
And like i've said, you're again adding new condition.
Counter i've given is enough, you're just writing to say nothing here, sorry to say it.
11) Normal.
You're talking about generic teams.
Your argument is only based on generic team.
So, how can you be credible when i read this?
12) Dragon.
The best ct for Dragon is Mamoswine and not Excdrill/Garchomp lol.
In wich metagame are you to say Mamo isn't THE counter for dragon...
And finally to answer about your last sentence:
"Now to Fírnen , Im aware we both have a huge amount of IF's, I really am.
But cant you see these are more likely?
Counter Chansey?
Cofagrigus?
Seriously?"
I just have more experience and games played than you in this tiers.
I know which sets are used and which Pokemons too.
Try to discredit me like you did is vexed.
I've more 1000 games for more 700 wins in this metagame.
Just with it and with stats (who aren't very explicit cause stats are based on usage of Pokemon of ALL USERS, BAD TOO.), i can give an objective opinion.
I didn't always have understood why you were discrediting me while i know the meta and ( i don't like saying this) i'm one of the best monotype player.
All things i say is thought and checked.
I put once more time my stats to have more credibility (like Crazy did).
#1 monotype172686.61849 ± 27--703311
Youve said you hit #1 about 8 times in that post, and then you say you dont like saying it..
I have so much shit to say rn but I wont cause I'm not a disguisting person >_>
But the thing youre forgetting is, like, in almost every single counter-arguement you had for each type, you mentioned: "if the player's good" "if the player isnt a noob" etc.
Not all the people in this meta are as good as you, or half as good as you are.
You are now being subjective to only the better-best players in this Meta that DO KNOW how to deal w/ generic ground, and still half of them struggle to do so.
I plead you to stop pursuing this subject, Ground DOES need a nerf, and banning smooth Rock is literally the MOST MINOR change that could have been made.
You are being unfair to the rest of the meta.
First, i've said i was one of many best player in Monotype, don't say what i didn't say just because you want discredit me.
When i was saying i was became #1 on the ladd with these types, it was said for only one goal: Show Excadrill Sand Rush Smooth Rock isn't a problem for the meta. ;)
Not to have a big ego.
You know that the term "playing well" or "Isn't a noob" (last was used only one time btw) can be deleted and my argument sill be correct.
You know too English isn't my first language and i force myself to say right things i'm thinking. So, it can have some ambiguity in my sentences you interpret badly.
Why do you want ban Smooth Rock? It's just useless and this rock, like i've said before, doesn't have the same impact than Damp Rock for water team...
I was being unfair for the rest of the meta? Just show me i'm wrong.
When i was saying i was became #1 on the ladd with these types, it was said for only one goal: Show Excadrill Sand Rush Smooth Rock isn't a problem for the meta. ;)
Not to have a big ego.
You know that the term "playing well" or "Isn't a noob" (last was used only one time btw) can be deleted and my argument sill be correct.
You know too English isn't my first language and i force myself to say right things i'm thinking. So, it can have some ambiguity in my sentences you interpret badly.
Why do you want ban Smooth Rock? It's just useless and this rock, like i've said before, doesn't have the same impact than Damp Rock for water team...
I was being unfair for the rest of the meta? Just show me i'm wrong.
Just the fact you can not see Ground does have a problem, and an upper hand against over half of this meta, means youre not being Objective at all, or atleast not fully.
I respect you, first as a person, then as a player & a battler, and yes, you do have alot more skill & experience than most of this meta, and I have at this game.
My point is, when a type, has leverage over 2/3 of 18 types, You need to understand there is something wrong with it.
Ive been saying this again and again, banning Smooth Rock ----- Not Excadrill, Not SandRush, Not Landorus, Not Hippowdon, Not Sand Stream -- non of these, cause these ARE (IMO) too DRASTIC.
Not banning a pokemon, nor an abillity, barely banning an item. Shortening Sand Stream by 3 turns, is NOT MUCH, and thats what WE ARE asking for.
And please my english is bad in my own way :(
I respect you, first as a person, then as a player & a battler, and yes, you do have alot more skill & experience than most of this meta, and I have at this game.
My point is, when a type, has leverage over 2/3 of 18 types, You need to understand there is something wrong with it.
Ive been saying this again and again, banning Smooth Rock ----- Not Excadrill, Not SandRush, Not Landorus, Not Hippowdon, Not Sand Stream -- non of these, cause these ARE (IMO) too DRASTIC.
Not banning a pokemon, nor an abillity, barely banning an item. Shortening Sand Stream by 3 turns, is NOT MUCH, and thats what WE ARE asking for.
And please my english is bad in my own way :(
I was precisely -sorta- happy the way things have been working here. Take a look at the last ban for example, while most people agreed on a nerf, there was the discussion that the arbitrary decision came out of nowhere and if you go check some pages back, some people suggested suspect tests or things like that. I mean, even right now we are kinda discussing the possible next Ground nerf. That's why I made a comment on why do we have to fall back to the way things are done in other tiers? UU has its own ****ed up way to ban things. That's them. Why can't we decide on our own? I'm not gonna start an argument over what you consider good reason(s) in OU because it is a different tier and it's frankly arguable.
Finally, I wasn't insulting "people", regardless of this site been seen as a "community" I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, hence my initial question "Who is "we"?". I'm of the opinion we should take our own decisions, regardless of what mods in other subforums do/think. That's why I've been asking for a subforum of our own.
EDIT: I guess I was replying to Articuno I before the other discussion happened.
In any case, as an Ice user I must say, decently made teams should win against decent Ground opponent teams. From the 10-12 games I've had against +1500s Ground users I lost only twice. Once because Excadrill flinched my Babiri Berry Avalugg. Twice. In a row... The other one because Excadrill flinched my Reflect Piloswine and then crit the next turn...
Ice should have the upper hand by playing aggressively, if you wanna switch according to what the ground player dictates, well then sure you are gonna lose. Bear in mind nothing switches into Articuno except Mamo who can be handled by other pokes. Nothing switches into Kyu-B either who can 2HKO Gastro and nullifies Mamo's Thick Fat.
Finally, I wasn't insulting "people", regardless of this site been seen as a "community" I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, hence my initial question "Who is "we"?". I'm of the opinion we should take our own decisions, regardless of what mods in other subforums do/think. That's why I've been asking for a subforum of our own.
EDIT: I guess I was replying to Articuno I before the other discussion happened.
In any case, as an Ice user I must say, decently made teams should win against decent Ground opponent teams. From the 10-12 games I've had against +1500s Ground users I lost only twice. Once because Excadrill flinched my Babiri Berry Avalugg. Twice. In a row... The other one because Excadrill flinched my Reflect Piloswine and then crit the next turn...
Ice should have the upper hand by playing aggressively, if you wanna switch according to what the ground player dictates, well then sure you are gonna lose. Bear in mind nothing switches into Articuno except Mamo who can be handled by other pokes. Nothing switches into Kyu-B either who can 2HKO Gastro and nullifies Mamo's Thick Fat.
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How is Smooth Rock useless? It literally gives you three more turns to outspeed your opponent and how many others have realized it gives you more freedom to set up rocks and get Exca on the field more easier. I'm pretty sure that everyone who is reading this post has had to stall the sand out in a battle before, in these cases those 3 turns can be crucial influence how the game is going to end. I agree with you that it doesn't nearly have the same impact that Damp rock had on water but still its a item that defines ground at the moment (88% of ground teams have smooth rock hippo). For those people who say that banning Smooth Rock doesn't solve the problem and yeah maybe that can be right but it sure makes the problem much smaller. To someone who said that we should ban Gravity, Are you seriously saying that something that only 20% of the ground users use is ban worthy, That would literally have zero impact to the meta. Banning Lando-I is in my opinion way too drastic and wouldn't solve the problem that we are having. Banning Sand Rush before testing how the meta would be like after Smooth Rock ban makes 0 sense in my books. And I'm pretty sure that everyone agrees that its sad how little diversity ground teams have nowadays, Of course there have been users who have used different kind of cores but still the idea of the team has been the same (Except CC's Ground) Abuse Sand Rush Drill as long as u can and then switch. I still haven't seen a argument that's against the banning of smooth rock, only people saying thats its a useless rock that doesn't really matter.
I don't usually do these kind of posts so if something is wrong please notify me >//<
Isn't the point of Monotype to have an answer for every monotype? I mean there certainly has to be something in each monotype that has a check for Ground if Ground is so predictable. Playstyles evolve to counter other playstyles, and that can be an inhibitor, or it can expand new horizons of teambuilding
And youre missing this totally small point 70% of this chat is trying to make.
Sand Rush Excadrill , for 8 turns , is fucking Satan.
As Azelea said right there, there hasnt been an actually SOLID argument, of why smooth rock should stay, that opened my eyes.
Everything that has been said by Firnen / CC, is well known, we all know our ways around 8 Turns of Sand Rush Excadrill , but can you really tell me we are able to pull off the evasion of losing in 7 turns?
It is WAY TOO HARD, there should NOT be THAT MUCH PRESSURE getting rid of ONE SINGLE GOD DAMN POKEMON, because about 25% of you think its not Exceptionally Good-Broken.
Im going to mention again, the percantage of ground's wins and losses in this meta. Literally wins against 14/18 types over 50% of the time. Some got to 85%+. 14/18 divided by 2 is 7/9 which is about 77%-78%.
Not to mention the win percentage against the only types that it losses to, isnt that small either, Fighting & Grass is around 40%, when water is around 30%.
Ground is TOO GOOD, and it DOES need a nerf, and I AM getting tired of saying this, but Banning Smooth Rock, is literally the MINIMUM we could ask.
And guess what? We ARE asking for the MINIMUM.
I guess I will try and make one last point. The idea that smooth rock ground has become this centralized of the meta game proves it is broken. All these arguments about greninja and mega metagross are being used about ground. We can say all the stats we want but at the end of the day ground needs a nerf. The fact that this has gone one for several pages on the forms and yet to be any sings of a suspect from thoses in charge is honestly pathetic. The reason for bans is for balance and if such a large number of people have conflicting views proves it needs to be looked at further.
My point has been clarified already for those who want to understand.
Was trying to convince these last few people.
And also, you could have PM'd me that.
I do thank you for saying that, next time you do that, just do it somewhere private.
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