Announcement NatDex OU Suspect Test 1: The Bigger the Better [DYNAMAX BANNED]

[Funbot28]

Format influenced by OU Suspect

Hello, the National Dex OU council has decided to suspect Dynamax (and Gigantamax by extension)!

It's no surprise that the Dyanamax has shaped up the tier quite considerably, arguably even more so then presence of Mega Evolutions and Z-stones did in their respective generations. Despite the access to previous generation mechanics, Dynamaxing has still caused quite a stuff in competitive play and teambuilding alike when abusers such as Kartana, Landorus-T, Volcorona, and Gyarados gain access to a doubling in their HP combined with the power and added benefits of max moves. The abundance of setup sweepers that benefit from Dynamaxing potential have become quite apparent and have heavily skewed the metagame towards offensive play. Despite the potential of defensive pokemon from benefiting from the doubling of their own HP, they are unable to gain access to vital status moves that can prevent an opposing Dynamax sweep and are unaffected by phazing as well, making setup especially difficult to halt.

However, the presence of both Mega evolutions and Z-moves does make Dyanamaxing a bit more bearable in this environment, as players have access to offensively / defensively powerful mega evolutions combined with z-moves to stabilize the opposing Dynamax threat. Although, it is still apparent that Dynamaxing shifts games numerous times and is potentially too much for this environment as well, leading to this suspect.

Suspect Information:

• Dynamaxing will be allowed on the ladder. The suspect will last for approximately 2 weeks, meaning that it will end at January 4th 11:59pm EST.​
• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NXDYN. For example, I might signup with the ladder account NXDYN Funbot28.​
• Reqs can be achieved by getting 79 GXE with 35 or more games on the National Dex OU ladder. Reqs can also be given to finalists of room tours which will be announced shortly upon specific dates so keep attention to that.​
• Once you achieve reqs, post the requirements in this thread (a screenshot of the accounts GXE and amount of ladder games with proof of account ownership). Voting will be taking place in a separate thread, therefore it is not required to post your votes in here.​
• A ban vote of 60% majority will be required to ban Dynamax (and Gigantamax)​

Remember to keep discussion civil and stay on topic! Posts will be moderated here so please try to follow the guidelines in order to avoid post deletion or possible infraction.

Tagging The Immortal in order to update suspect alert for ladder games.

​

 

[Sputnik]

Alright let's kick some discussion off here.

I am a firm believer that Dynamax is thoroughly broken in this tier. A lot of people are claiming that its not as bad because Z-Moves and Megas make it a bit more...predictable. I don't buy into this because even if you can see a dynamax coming it can be extremely difficult to stop. It could be very obvious that someone is maneuvering to Dyna sweep with their Kartana but with proper team support it really isn't that hard to facilitate even if its extremely obvious as to what you are trying to do. And dynamaxing is still unpredictable. Less so, sure, but teams will still usually have a couple of mons that can viably go big. In a lot of cases the only counterplay is to Dynamax your own mon or pack a Ditto to flip the script. It's absolutely insane.

And we have arguably even better Dynamax abusers than OU does. Kartana is something that everyone is mentioning, and for good reason. Aerial Ace, Leaf Blade, and Sacred Sword speaks for itself, and it can run a normal move to break through things like Zapdos that would otherwise blank it. Even things like Skarm and Celesteela aren't safe once Kartana gets going, and Swords Dance variants exist to take advantage of forced switches. (although I'm personally a firm believer of Choice Band)

Don't forget the other fantastic dynamaxers in the tier. Volcarona, Landorus-T, Salamence, Greninja, Zygarde, and many others can use dynamaxing to gain a huge advantage in one way or another. And things like Gyarados, Lucha, and Togekiss are still very effective here as well. It's getting to the point where Ditto is close to mandatory on a lot of teams these days just to beat dynamaxers, which isn't healthy at all. Dynamaxing may not be quite as bad, although its still way too much for the tier in my opinion.

 

[Guard]

Based on what I’ve experienced in the highest echelons of the ladder (proof in sig) and what we as a community have figured out on paper already, I think Dynamax is very unhealthy for the metagame and should be banned in short order. Although there's definitely a few merits to this mechanic (newfound variety for some Pokemon, its utility in breaking fatter cores etc.) I find the negatives outrun the positives by several miles.

The largest issue in my opinion is the fact that there is no defensive counterplay to Dynamax, apart from Dynamaxing a member of your defensive backbone, putting the Dynamaxed mon to sleep or spamming sub. However, it is fairly evident that each of these 'supposed' counterplay-options do not work on each and every threat and bring downsides with them. For example, Dynamaxing your defensive mon to prevent an offensive mon from steamrolling through your team is all good and well, but is significantly more difficult to pull off than simply Dynamaxing your offensive mon and clicking buttons. It means you will have to guess when your opponent is going to pull the trigger and more importantly, which mon. This is possible, since competitive mons in its core concept is a complicated chess-like game after all. However, I believe the guessing game favors the opponent much more than it favors you as the defender, since you have much more to lose if you predict incorrectly.

Moreover, Dynamax is an extremely unpredictable mechanic, since neither you nor the opponent can predict what mon is going to Dynamax at team preview, crucially distinguishing itself from every single past mechanic in the game. I realize this is a bit less of an issue in Nat Dex formats due to megas and Z-moves, yet I still believe it is big enough to negatively impact the prospective player experience of this tier.

I care a lot about this tier. It is the tier I looked forward to the most in gen VIII. However, if I see Lando-T airstreaming every 'check' to death and gaining a speed boost on top of it, Kartana getting free swords dances by killing something with Max Knuckle, or Gyara and Mence getting free dragon dances without any drawbacks whatsoever, I can't help seeing the appeal of this tier slip away.

 

[Zneon]

Edit:

Reqs Confirmation

https://gyazo.com/d446bce8d3bf6677f0e05a57540ef3c3

After playing both Gen 8 OU and this format, and based on the experience I have with Dynamax. I believe that Dynamax is emits an incredibly unhealthy presence here, considering that, in my opinion at least, Dynamax has proven to be even more difficult to handle here than regular OU due to mons like Salamence, Landorus-T, Kartana that abuse Dynamax to a much higher degree than the best Dynamax abusers in regular OU, and I think it should absolutely go.

The unpredictability factor that Dynamax adds to battles gives it extremely limited defensive counterplay unless you're running a Ditto to anti-sweep the opposing team, which is a good way of combating it yes, but is unhealthy or competitive by any means for most games to be a back and forth of sweep or be swept? I don't think so, and I don't think anyone thinks so either. Another way to deal with it is to defensively Dynamax, but defensive Dynamaxing offers less than just Dynamaxing with your offensive threat, and secondly the fact that you even have to defensively Dynamax because of how limited defensive counterplay is to begin with is simply unhealthy and uncompetitive.

Now, considering that this is Nat dex, there are more mons to abuse Dynamax, so like I said before, Dynamaxing is more difficult to handle in this format unless you are literally running a Ditto for every team. But without Ditto, you have to telegraph when your opponent is going to Dynamax in order for the slightest chance you are not going to get completely snowballed by something like Lando-T, to the point where you can lose a match by guessing wrong, and the fact that you need to run Ditto in order to not lose has an negative impact on the metagame.

Dynamax as a whole has proven to be a complete nuisance that in my opinion will halt the progression of the meta, it's too much to handle and as a result it should be banned.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

So, I don't currently have the reqs to vote, but I'd like to mention one particular problem.

During some of my free time, I have gone in with my normal competitive team and experienced something quite nasty. Ditto is able to copy my Mega, and then subsequently DYNAMAX the Mega. Now, as someone who uses Mega Beedrill, this wasn't too much of a problem since the only move that would do any good for the copied Mega was Max Quake (Drill Run) to boost its special defense; on a more accomplished mega such as any of the Charizards, Medicham, Venusaur, Blastoise, etc., it would be a catastrophe. Just a heads-up during this suspect test.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

I tried to get Reqs but sadly this metagame has gotten to the point where skill is completely fallen out the window of in favour of "When is he gonna dynamax." Half of my losses were completely out of my control. I got to 71.9% and now I'm burnt out by how shitty my ladder expedience was. I may try to bring it back later. You simply cannot have a "competitive" metagame with Dynamax. If I were to describe my ladder experience, imagine the Aegislash 50/50 from gen 6/7, but during the whole game.

I don't know where this notion that Dynamax more balanced to NatDex came from. Its way worse here. You can literally use any semi-confident mon and just sweep teams because they probably don't know what that mon has. In NatDex we also have Volcarona, the single deadliest mon in the tier right now which has made me use ridiculous tects like Tanga Berry Tyranitar just to beat it.

I definitely think that Dynamax should be Banned from NatDex OU.

 

[N_Mareanie]

Posting this here so I don't forget later

Dynamax is genuinely ridiculous and I don't understand why people are saying it's less broken than in the regular SS OU. We have so many broken abusers that makes teambuilding near impossible, to the point where only Ditto HO is actually considered viable. Kartana, Magearna, Zygarde, Volcarona, Landorus-Therian etc. etc. All these 'mons just get so dumb broken and sooo much more bulky for no goddamn reason. I won't go in debt as to why it should go, 'cause let's be honest, everyone wants it gone.

So for y'all, here's a nice brainless HO team I used to get reqs within 1 hour.

Team

Mew @ Focus Sash
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Skill Swap
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Taunt
- Spirit Break

Kartana @ Expert Belt
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword

Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Aura Sphere

Magearna @ Electrium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Shift Gear
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 188 HP / 168 Atk / 32 Def / 8 SpD / 112 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows

Team is simple. Set up hazards with Mew. Set up screens with Grimmsnarl. Then set up with one of the broken abusers. Aerial Ace is for Max Airstreem speed boosts of course, so if you kill something with Max Airstream you basically get a free DD. Max Quake with Zygarde boosts Sp. Def which is hilarious at 1v1'ing HP Ice-less Tangrowth. Mega Blastoise is Timid for +2 Polteageist if you ever both set up at the same time. Magearna is Magearna (broken).

I do think there are some other problematic elements in the meta, such as Aegislash and Arena Trap, but I won't talk about that now since this is for Dynamax. Removing Dynamax will definitely make this meta a lot more balanced and would be a huge step into the right direction. I'll be voting Ban.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

View attachment 213721
Posting this here so I don't forget later

Dynamax is genuinely ridiculous and I don't understand why people are saying it's less broken than in the regular SS OU. We have so many broken abusers that makes teambuilding near impossible, to the point where only Ditto HO is actually considered viable. Kartana, Magearna, Zygarde, Volcarona, Landorus-Therian etc. etc. All these 'mons just get so dumb broken and sooo much more bulky for no goddamn reason. I won't go in debt as to why it should go, 'cause let's be honest, everyone wants it gone.

So for y'all, here's a nice brainless HO team I used to get reqs within 1 hour.
View attachment 213722View attachment 213723View attachment 213725View attachment 213726View attachment 213724View attachment 213727

Team

Mew @ Focus Sash
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Skill Swap
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Taunt
- Spirit Break

Kartana @ Expert Belt
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword

Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Aura Sphere

Magearna @ Electrium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Shift Gear
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 188 HP / 168 Atk / 32 Def / 8 SpD / 112 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows

Team is simple. Set up hazards with Mew. Set up screens with Grimmsnarl. Then set up with one of the broken abusers. Aerial Ace is for Max Airstreem speed boosts of course, so if you kill something with Max Airstream you basically get a free DD. Max Quake with Zygarde boosts Sp. Def which is hilarious at 1v1'ing HP Ice-less Tangrowth. Mega Blastoise is Timid for +2 Polteageist if you ever both set up at the same time. Magearna is Magearna (broken).

I do think there are some other problematic elements in the meta, such as Aegislash and Arena Trap, but I won't talk about that now since this is for Dynamax. Removing Dynamax will definitely make this meta a lot more balanced and would be a huge step into the right direction. I'll be voting Ban.

That team looks really familiar. Didn't I just play you a couple of minutes ago?

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

You know what? I'm going to be the first to say it. I've discussed it over with other people trying to ladder for reqs.

These current requirements (79 GXE over 35 Games) are too high in this current circumstance.

It may just be that I'm shit. Its probably because I'm shit. But here's the thing- the problem with the metagame is that Dynamax is turning matches into a coin flip at this point where matches can be decided in two or three turns. This is in itself is unstable and makes it hard to prove your skill - I mean isn't that the point of suspect testing, that only experienced battlers can make a democratic decision, and not just some random Joe?
In my opinion, unlike other metas, National Dex OU with Dynamax is too volatile to consistently remain at nearly an 80% winrate over 35-40 games.
This creates a self fulfilling prophecy. By trying to ban dynamax you have to abuse dynamax only to lose to dynamax. Maybe suspect testing Dynamax worked in SS OU because there are 20-50x times the amount of players and resources, as well as being a less offensive meta than this.
Of course, this has probably happened before (though not at this scale). Someone above me already got reqs. But having a competent team and getting 60% GXE at 48 games because eight of them were sudden losses to a sudden Regice 6-0 or Curse Gigalith Stall, and seeing that everyone else you see trying to vote also getting hammed is really demoralizing. There has to be a different way of determining reqs in this scenario. I mean I know im new to Smogon and maybe thats just how things work but maybe it could be the amount youve contributed to the Smogon zeitgeist so far? Or if you suspect voted in SS OU you should get reqs to this? If you won a room tourney in the nat dex room (it would have to become a public room) you get reqs with a verified smogon account? Yes I probably need to git gud but this just doesnt seem right.

/end bitching

 

[Sputnik]

These current requirements (79 GXE over 35 Games) are too high in this current circumstance.

I mean OU had a higher requirement when suspecting dynamaxing so this checks out in my opinion.

 

[Zrp200]

I mean OU had a higher requirement when suspecting dynamaxing so this checks out in my opinion.

ou is also more heavily played, so even with high reqs you are still going to get plenty of voters.

 

[Ropalme1914]

Confirmation

Shotouts to N_Mareanie the team is super broken lol

Reqs for sure AREN'T too high lol
Also, yeah, I wanted this thing to stay, but some Pokémon like Kart and Zyg are just too crazy and don't have real counterplay all things considered lol you still can try the old Flying-types that could check Kart before, but even then, Max Strike smacks then and lowers their Speed, so not even them are switch-ins.

 

[Cheryl.]

Req confirmation

Reqs aren't hard when you've got brainless Screens and about 10 different broken sweepers.

Dynamax is broken here as it is in every Singles tier, in fact I'd say it's even worse than in something like normal Gen 8 OU even with it's added predictability. Why? Because in Gen 8 OU, yeah you've got your Gyarados' and Hawluchas which are pretty dumb but in this tier you have unwallable shit like SD Max Airstream Lando-T, Max Airstream Kartana, Max Quake Coil Zygarde, and a ton of other broken stuff lying beneath the surface. Throughout my time laddering I didn't find a single game where people could actually check my Dyna mons defensively because even with every mon being available, a boosted Kartana with Dynamax is not going to be wallable or checkable in the slightest. So yeah, Imma just keep this short because there's not much else to say besides Dynamax is broken and should be BANNED.

 

[astralydia]

reqs

Biggest hell I ever went through. It's like every corner you find a mon that just wins on matchup. It amplifies everything toxic about this game by simplifying movesets and in general making certain types overpowered. I'm done with Dynamax. BAN this shit.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Im honestly super ready to see Nat Dex grow as a tier once Dynamax is gone tbh. The playerbase will undoubtedly increase, and the meta will become healthier and more skill based as turns arent decided in an instant. Outplaying your opponent wont be meaningless anymore. You wont have to worry about airstream sweepers or Max Quake making zygarde unkillable. Unbanning genesect and deoxys-dickshit was a step in the right direction but this will be a pole jump.

 

[Guard]

Reqs: https://ibb.co/d2DVGNx

I urge anyone who plans on playing this tier to at least try to get reqs, since this is easily the most important suspect test this tier will have. Even if you think your vote won't contribute that much, try anyway and don't be lazy.

Undoubtedly voting Ban

 

[DialgaTheTimeLord]

I'm not going to pretend I have enough skill to get reqs, but I'd highly suggest just quickbanning it and getting it over with at this rate. Megas are basically just like any other Pokemon in OU except a bit stronger and no items, while Z-Moves seem like they'd either be forced to be saved for a DMax or they'd be used to break things that would stop your own DMax. Honestly, so many other tiers have already banned DMax with OVERWHELMING majorities. If it's not too late to quickban, I'd advocate strongly for one. The longer we dwell on this, the longer it will take for the many other matters Nat Dex needs to address can be handled. Plus, it's fairly safe to say where this vote will be going.

 

[Funbot28]

I'm not going to pretend I have enough skill to get reqs, but I'd highly suggest just quickbanning it and getting it over with at this rate. Megas are basically just like any other Pokemon in OU except a bit stronger and no items, while Z-Moves seem like they'd either be forced to be saved for a DMax or they'd be used to break things that would stop your own DMax. Honestly, so many other tiers have already banned DMax with OVERWHELMING majorities. If it's not too late to quickban, I'd advocate strongly for one. The longer we dwell on this, the longer it will take for the many other matters Nat Dex needs to address can be handled. Plus, it's fairly safe to say where this vote will be going.

Even though there may be overwhelming support into banning Dynamax, we will still be respecting the suspect testing process. Quick banning during the middle of a suspect process sets bad precedence and is something we would like to avoid.

 

[baconeatinassassin]

reqs

 

[Vaboh]

This was my first time playing National Dex and it was fun sweeping everyone with either kart or blastoise. However, dynamax got to go. Its even more broken than it was in standard ou.

So for y'all, here's a nice brainless HO team I used to get reqs within 1 hour.
View attachment 213722View attachment 213723View attachment 213725View attachment 213726View attachment 213724View attachment 213727

Team

Mew @ Focus Sash
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Skill Swap
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Taunt
- Spirit Break

Kartana @ Expert Belt
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword

Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Aura Sphere

Magearna @ Electrium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Shift Gear
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 188 HP / 168 Atk / 32 Def / 8 SpD / 112 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows

Shoutouts to this dude for supplying such a godly team. Takes zero skill and racks up wins super efficiently.

 

[Pheo]

 

[wrink]

I'm curious why it is that people think Dynamax is overwhelmingly broken. It's not like only certain pokemon or only certain teams can dynamax. Any pokemon can do it, and pretty much any physical pokemon that can learn fighting moves or any special pokemon that can use poison moves can use it viably. Also, given that the national dex meta was created for the express purpose of not cutting content, it seems unreasonable to turn right around and start cutting a mechanic just because it's new.

Granted, there are some pokemon who can easily abuse it: Gyarados, Hawlucha, Kartana, Giga-Lapras, and I'll admit despite using it, Giga-Snorlax all become catastrophes. One could argue that because those pokemon exist, the whole thing needs to be thrown out, but were this any other gen wouldn't we just ban the most egregious abusers?

I know I can't vote since there's no way in hell I'm achieving the minimum GXE, but if it does get cut, could we at least branch off a new OU metagame that DOES allow it?

 

[Cabneet]

I'm curious why it is that people think Dynamax is overwhelmingly broken. It's not like only certain pokemon or only certain teams can dynamax. Any pokemon can do it, and pretty much any physical pokemon that can learn fighting moves or any special pokemon that can use poison moves can use it viably. Also, given that the national dex meta was created for the express purpose of not cutting content, it seems unreasonable to turn right around and start cutting a mechanic just because it's new.

Granted, there are some pokemon who can easily abuse it: Gyarados, Hawlucha, Kartana, Giga-Lapras, and I'll admit despite using it, Giga-Snorlax all become catastrophes. One could argue that because those pokemon exist, the whole thing needs to be thrown out, but were this any other gen wouldn't we just ban the most egregious abusers?

I know I can't vote since there's no way in hell I'm achieving the minimum GXE, but if it does get cut, could we at least branch off a new OU metagame that DOES allow it?

You are forgetting that dynamax is immune to weight based moves, encore, destiny bond, and tricking a choice item.
Which leads into dmax letting you break out of choice lock on a whim, which would frankly be broken if that was the ONLY thing dynamax did.
Natdex is also filled to the brim with beast boosters and moxie mons, which will always be heavy abusers of it.
And then on top of ALL THIS it doubles your HP and boosts your stats just to make sure that other traditional ways of beating you won't work.
Dynamax is inherently broken.

 

[wrink]

You are forgetting that dynamax is immune to weight based moves, encore, destiny bond, and tricking a choice item.
Which leads into dmax letting you break out of choice lock on a whim, which would frankly be broken if that was the ONLY thing dynamax did.
Natdex is also filled to the brim with beast boosters and moxie mons, which will always be heavy abusers of it.
And then on top of ALL THIS it doubles your HP and boosts your stats just to make sure that other traditional ways of beating you won't work.
Dynamax is inherently broken.

But don't both players have that option? I agree that beast boost and moxie are significantly harder to control in combination, but isn't that the whole reason we have banlists to prevent pokemon from dominating the metagame?

Also, aren't there ways to shut down a dynamax abuser? Countering with your own dynamax can stall the other player out, as can prankster substituters like sableye, whimicott, grimmsnarl, klefki, tornadus and thundurus. On top of that, both Max Ooze and Max Knuckle can easily be blocked by a ghost or steel type respectively. Aegislash in particular can block both. Not to mention ditto can easily turn the tide against a team that uses it to set up. There's a whole world of possible strategies out there

 

[Cabneet]

But don't both players have that option? I agree that beast boost and moxie are significantly harder to control in combination, but isn't that the whole reason we have banlists to prevent pokemon from dominating the metagame?

Also, aren't there ways to shut down a dynamax abuser? Countering with your own dynamax can stall the other player out, as can prankster substituters like sableye, whimicott, grimmsnarl, klefki, tornadus and thundurus. On top of that, both Max Ooze and Max Knuckle can easily be blocked by a ghost or steel type respectively. Aegislash in particular can block both. Not to mention ditto can easily turn the tide against a team that uses it to set up. There's a whole world of possible strategies out there

Both players having the option to use it does not make something not broken. In any game. In any context.
Why ban anything overpowered ever if both players have the option to use it?
Quite frankly everything you are saying has been utterly shut down time and time again when we were discussing the dynamax ban in OU and it's clearly even MORE broken here.