Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Beauty and the Boost - Pheromosa is now banned

[Hydreigonfan01]

It looks like there is an overwhelming support in banning Pheromosa, which is quite unprecedented. As such, I would like to know something.

If there is such sheer amount of support toward ban, would it be possible to quicken the suspect process? I pretty much doubt that anyone would say more than what has already been said about this Ultra Beast, so it would make sense to make the suspect end quicker, so that we won't end up repeating the same arguments over and over.

These are just my two cents on the matter.

Mega Lucario had a 90% approval rating and that took just as long as Genesect to get banned I think. Not sure if it's going to be different here because it's a new meta.

To not make this a blank post I will say that I want this to get the banhammer but all my arguments have already been told before. I probably won't be able to get up to the ladder though.

 

[Lameflame]

In cases like this one, where on face it seems that a vote will be unanimously in favor of one side or another, it is still vitally important for determining future suspects and the suspect process as a whole to be perfectly clear as to why Pheromosa is unhealthy for the OU tier.

The fact that Pheromosa can run X number of sets, all of which being viable and/or subjectively better or worse than another, is not a reason why it needs to go. I will continue to refute this idea that the inability to know something's exact set & spread from preview contributes to something being broken. The entire premise of this competitive game is the ability for one player to make rational assumptions about the other's behavior and to respond accordingly. This includes scouting move sets, making assumptions based on damage calcs, observing what something is likely to run based on relevant metagame trends, etc. This isn't the first time this point has surfaced and I'm positive it's not the last, but it's a very weak point for either side and I think it shouldn't be as prominently referenced as it is.

However, in the case of Pheromosa specifically, what should be stressed isn't necessarily the unpredictability of its sets but rather the absolutely absurd risk-reward situations it promotes in games, even from the first few turns. I have no problem with scouting being made more onerous for an opponent, but how do you scout something which, given the best boosting move in the game (QD) and a one-time 190BP STAB Fighting-nuke, can outspeed and OHKO every single major metagame threat and continue to snowball with each proceeding KO thereafter? The fact that something with arguably the worst bulk in history is afforded so many opportunities to set up (or just click a Z-move and Beast Boost from there) is telling, to say the least. Consequently, wondering if you should attack something point blank when you risk losing momentum or even losing a pokemon just in case it might quiver dance and win outright is far too skewed to be considered reasonable counterplay, even if you did guess correctly. There simply isn't enough information available to a player to reasonably scout this Pokemon, and the extent to which it can snowball momentum for making a wrong decision can end games.

Furthermore, to run anything else with a Z-move is almost sub-optimal at this point given that Pheromosa does not consume a mega slot, is not hard to support and already has limited counter-play. Pheromosa absolutely has hard checks, but in this metagame, it has a relevant Z-move to blow past any one of which the player cannot already eliminate with the support of the rest of their team. In fairness, the checks it does have such as Toxapex, Tapu Fini, Alolan Marowak and Mega Venusaur are not "bad" pokemon in this metagame, nor are they hard to fit on a team. The issue arises from the fact that they hardly need to be worn down before they are in range of one of Pheromosa's Z-move nukes, and checking something only if you are at like 60%+ HP is too burdensome in a metagame where these aforementioned pokemon need to check several other prominent threats as well, not just Pheromosa. Having enough speed and the freedom to switch moves and pivot out of anything that actually could stomach a hit and retaliate only compounds this problem.

Essentially, Z-moves broke Pheromosa. No, it was absolutely not quickban worthy. No, I don't think this suspect took forever to occur; Pheromosa was nowhere near as potent weeks ago as it is now, and people overreacted to it before its best sets were ever revealed. But yes, Pheromosa has now proven to be too much for the OU tier and will likely be banned.

 

[SJCrew]

Is there some sort of meme I'm missing with Mega Venusaur being cited as a check to Pheromosa, despite being having precisely none of the qualifications a check would require?

× Resists or punishes U-turn

× Resists or takes little from STABs or common coverage

× Can switch directly in and halt a sweep under most reasonable circumstances

× Causes the Pheromosa player to react in a manner similar to, "Oh shit, it's a check. Better play carefully."

Imagine a check mark ideally being where those x's would have been. What is Mega Venusaur supposed to do?

 

[Gary]

Yeah Venu is a really shaky Pheromosa check, and frankly the only set it really checks decently is Scarf, but that just continually chips it with U-turn. Specs is an easy 2HKO after SR with Bug Buzz, and at +1 Breakneck Blitz can OHKO it with just a bit of prior damage. Add this onto how easy it is to pressure Mega Venu with hazards and low PP on Synthesis, it's not really going to be checking every Phero set reliably, which forces you to pair it with something else for more assurance vs Phero, defeating the purpose. I think back when Scarf and Mixed AoA were the only sets being used, Venu could deal with them pretty well considering Phero would never be able to sweep as long as Venu was alive, and while U-turn chunked it quite a bit, it didn't really do enough to where it would have issues healing it off.

Mega Venu is a hard check to most Phero sets, but it can't really switch-in, and it takes so much from boosted Bug Buzz that it's not really THAT reliable at keeping it in check, so if anything, it provides a bit of extra cushioning vs Phero, but it should never be your primary answer.

 

[RainbowDemon]

Sorry for keeping it short, but IMO Game Freak should fire the idiot who decided to give this monster Ice Beam. The result is that most of its would-be checks and counters (Lando-T, Garchomp, Zygarde, Zapdos, Mega Char Y, Mega-Pinsir, Gyarados, Salamence, Dragonite, Tornadus-Therian et al) are either anihilated or too unsafe to switch in. It forces teams to run a very limited number of checks to stop it, and as a result, people have to look for specific strategies to get rid of those walls, thus making the tier very centered around checking Pheromosa/removing the mons that provide such checking. I'm not too fond of bans, but I see no way around the ban hammer this time around.

 

[toshimelonhead]

It looks like there is an overwhelming support in banning Pheromosa, which is quite unprecedented. As such, I would like to know something.

If there is such sheer amount of support toward ban, would it be possible to quicken the suspect process? I pretty much doubt that anyone would say more than what has already been said about this Ultra Beast, so it would make sense to make the suspect end quicker, so that we won't end up repeating the same arguments over and over.

These are just my two cents on the matter.

No amount of time can quicken the circlejerk that is posting the same 5 points over and over in the suspect thread.

 

[robopoke]

Lemme start this post by emphasizing that Beast Boost+Z-Crystal is incredibly good and very hard to deal with. We see this similiar combination on Magearna as well who can win turn 3 against many teams with Shift Gear/Trick Room, the correct three attacking moves and Z-Crystal.

While this sounds weird, I feel like Z-Crystals are the biggest problem in SM OU right now. People had the unwavering opinion that an ORAS Team is bad without a Mega. This sentence can be adopted to SM OU, just for Z Crystals if you take fat teams out of the equation.
Compared to Z-Crystals, Megas can be identified easily through Team Preview. Even in ORAS this was fairly easy, unless your opponent is using Latias + Metagross. But even then you can use your experience and think on a teambuilding point of view and ask yourself, wether your opponent appreciates AV Metagross to Pursuittrap Mega Zams etc.

I wish we could suspecttest Z-Crystals in a later stage of SM not by banning them completly, but by making them visible for the opponent either immediately through Team Preview or when the Z-Crystal user is on the field similiar to Air Balloon. Z-Crystals are just dumb when you cannot expect them 100% and I am saying this as someone who always uses Offense.

Again, my suggestion is to make the Z-Crystal visible for the opponent either immediatly through team preview or when the Crystalholder is on the field.

Regardless of my opinion about Z-Crystals in the Meta, I would vote ban on Pheromosa if I get reqs.

 

[Subject 18]

Again, my suggestion is to make the Z-Crystal visible for the opponent either immediatly through team preview or when the Crystalholder is on the field.

This isn't going to happen. PS and the tiering system has made it clear that we're trying to keep the PS as true to cartridge as possible. Outside of the sleep clause that was implemented, nothing else has changed game mechanics to be different from the cartridge games. When the cartridge games start revealing Z Crystals, PS will be changed to reflect that. Until then, let's not bring up stuff like this in the future as it's not going to happen.

 

[Lazyboy0337]

Is there some sort of meme I'm missing with Mega Venusaur being cited as a check to Pheromosa, despite being having precisely none of the qualifications a check would require?

× Resists or punishes U-turn

× Resists or takes little from STABs or common coverage

× Can switch directly in and halt a sweep under most reasonable circumstances

× Causes the Pheromosa player to react in a manner similar to, "Oh shit, it's a check. Better play carefully."

Imagine a check mark ideally being where those x's would have been. What is Mega Venusaur supposed to do?

It's not the best check, but M-Venu works well on many different teams and isn't a horrible momentum loss. If you don't wanna be forced into using Toxapex on offense, you could use M-Venu for a slightly more aggressive (while still decently fat) check to Phero. M-Venu shouldn't be splashed in if you need a Phero check, but if you want a fat grass for your team and don't wanna get 6-0 by Phero, you can consider running it.

 

[WebBowser]

It looks like there is an overwhelming support in banning Pheromosa, which is quite unprecedented. As such, I would like to know something.

If there is such sheer amount of support toward ban, would it be possible to quicken the suspect process? I pretty much doubt that anyone would say more than what has already been said about this Ultra Beast, so it would make sense to make the suspect end quicker, so that we won't end up repeating the same arguments over and over.

These are just my two cents on the matter.

I do not in any way, shape or form speak for the council, but I doubt this will happen. This is hardly the first time Smogon has had a lopsided suspect (the fact that the more recent suspects this gen were not lopsided were more plesent surprises then anything else), and there is no real precedent for hastening the suspect process. So in the meantime feel free to taste the pheromosa-less meta on PS, enjoy the limited conversation here, check out another thread, or just wait a couple weeks for it all to be over.


So I actually think we should compare pheromosa to genesect a little bit more, because I think there stands a solid argument that Phero is actually more busted then Genesect. I'm going to (try to) judge them on the merits of their offensive pivot capabilities, offensive setup capabilities, and non-offensive utility.

Offensive Pivot:

When looking at offensive pivots, there are a few important factors to take into account:

1. How fast are they?

2. What pokemon can they threaten?

3. How much damage can they do with their "safe option" (which is either their hardest hitting move(usually a STAB move) or a pivot move like u-turn or volt switch)

4. How well can they screw over their swap ins if their opponent/the meta becomes too reliant on them?

5. What are the consequences of predicting poorly?

6. How are they getting in?

In terms of speed, Phero is the painfully obvious winner here. Genesect reaches a paltry 326 speed without scarf (boosting nature) and 489 speed with a scarf. Phero reaches 401 speed without even a boosting nature, and a blistering 441 speed with one. modest/adamant scarf reaches 602 (2 points shy of jolly sand rush exca and well above pretty much anything else in the tier, boosted or otherwise) and just in case +2 speed threats are bothering you that much you can always run scarf with a positive nature. The fact that phero can afford to not run scarf in non-lure and setup sets is an upside that cannot be understated.

In terms of what pokemon they can check, the field is much more even. They can both have perfect or near perfect neutral coverage if they so desire (specially based or mixed scarfed pivot for gene and 4 attacks LO phero come to mind), and have enough offensive prowess to threaten all but quad resists, reasonably bulky resists, and the absolute bulkiest of walls. Genesect checks priority sweepers like Scizor and Mega Pinsir a lot better as he has enough bulk to stomach most boosted priority at full life (Azu, mega maw and Bisharp being notable exceptions), while Phero has an infinitely better time with speed boosted threats like megazard-X, shift gear magearna, most scarfers and even sand rush excadrill (RP megagross, QD volc, and DD regular gyra are some notable exceptions). I'm going to call it slightly in phero's favor due to the current meta (which is astonishing because phero is in the meta and gene is not), but both of them are veritable revenge killers that can check a wide variety of the meta.

In terms of how much damage they can do "safely", phero is a fairly clean winner here. Not only does she have a slightly stronger u-turn roughly half the time, but her secondary stab in high jump kick blows iron head out of the water in terms of neutral coverage, super effective coverage, and just plain raw power. Judging solely by their STAB moves, phero is just plain harder to find a swap in for then genesect, and even if you predict correctly, your check is taking more "chip" damage then it would be from gene most of the time, making it easier for your cleaner to come in and finish up in the late game (btw, did I mention that phero is a phenomenal cleaner?).

In terms of how well they can screw over their so-called checks, I'm gonna actually hand it over to genesect, though again it's close. Both sides have access to near perfect neutral coverage with a 4 attacks set, heavily limiting their checks to "bulky mons that resist both stabs and are not hit super effectively by their most common coverage moves". As it turns out, the pool of mons that resist bug-fighting are much smaller then the pool of mons that resist steel-bug, so the number of pokemon phero really needs to target is smaller then the number of pokemon genesect struggles to break past. That being said, this is where pheromosa's "shallow movepool" comes into play. While pheromosa has just enough coverage to pull off a terrifying 4 attacks set, it has very little leeway in remaining options, basically being limited to Z moves and HP-whatever. Her special attack, while great, is not great enough to really want to run an HP in a non-special set, so early calcs can often reveal that. Her Z-Move sets are certainly powerful, but Genesect has those too and has a larger variety of abusable options to mess around with like Z-T-Bolt, Z-Zap Cannon, Z-Solar Beam, Z-Explosion, on top of most of the other Z-Move options that phero has (with the notable exception of no Z-Fighting moves). While Phero has no shortage of ways to mess with her supposed checks and counters, genesect has a few more tricks up his sleeve. It is worth noting that genesect must give up his all important scarf to run a z-move, while phero is much less item dependent, so that's definitely a point in phero's favor, but I still think I need to hand it to genesect.

So the consequences of clicking "u-turn" are generally minor. At worst, your opponent is feeling brave and swaps in his ferro or tankchomp to eat the hit and deal about 30% damage to you, but that's a very risky 30% considering both run very common "coverage" moves that hits both of them hard (does fighting stab count as a coverage move?) and perhaps more importantly you still have momentum (barring a sac, which is still generally good for you). For Phero, the consequence of clicking HJK against a resist is also usually minor (unless ghost type), as even most resists do not appreciate your 120 BP STAB move very much. Genesect lacks a high powered secondary STAB, making him more prediction reliant in order to get his kills and by extension, easier to take momentum away from (not saying a whole lot tbh). They both have similar consequences for predicting poorly on a coverage move, in which the swap in takes a relatively weak, unstabbed coverage move and promptly forces them out, if not kills them. It is worth noting that genesect doesn't mind being forced out quite as much as phero does as he's much easier to bring in, but neither are particularly "easy" to bring in. I'm going to say... tied here, more because it's late, I'm tired, and I don't want to make another subjective close call.

In terms of how they are getting in, it's pretty simple. They are both solid leads and both appreciate slow u-turn support. Phero can swap in more easily into speed boosters (though that's an obviously risky move as most speed boosters are more then capable of killing phero on the switch), while genesect handles most status better and can actually take a weak move or two. The latter really cannot be overstated. Genesect wins here.

While they both have their strengths as offensive pivots, I'm going to give the edge to phero mostly because of her incredible secondary STAB and speed tier, which frees up her item slot and makes her much less prediction reliant then Genesect.


Ok, it's almost 11 and I have work tomorrow. I'll analyze their setup potential and non-offensive utility tomorrow if nobody beats me to it. TL;DR/preview below

TL;DR

offensive pivot: While they both have their strengths as offensive pivots, I'm going to give the edge to phero mostly because of her incredible secondary STAB and speed tier, which frees up her item slot and makes her much less prediction reliant then Genesect. Advantage Phero.

setup: both of them are great at forcing switches. Genesect has the bulk to take a hit while setting up shift gear/RP, while phero is more useful pre-setup then non-scarf gene. Phero usually hits harder post-setup then gene. +1 phero with speed boosting nature is hilariously faster then +2 speed genesect (that's more relevant to scarf-mosa then QD though). Gonna give the initial advantage to phero.

Non-offensive utility: bug-steel actually has some ok defensive utility with a mon like heatran or clefable. He also has explosion as an emergency momentum switch. Pheromosa has rapid spin. Perhaps I'm underestimating how good an offensive rapid spinner is, but I'm going to give the initial advantage to Genesect.

initial findings: pheromosa > genesect.

 

[BReady]

In my opinion, this is honestly a waste of a suspect. This is not something that can be argued (should've been quickbanned). Pheromosa is Uber material and has been since it's release. It doesn't matter if it's defense are base 37 if it's typing resists most priority. Frankly, the meta is so boring at the moment with Pheromosa on every other team. Matches have literally come down to whomevers Pheromosa gets the boost first will win.

Clearly, this is a low-risk high-reward mon when it comes to usage and doesn't require much skill at all. Players can get free wins against stall without any effort and balance is barely a thing due to the prominence of Pheromosa and various offensive pressuring mons.

Ban

 

[Shurtugal]

Is there any point in further discussion? It seems like we all agree on banning Pheromosa, but everyone is debating on their reasons for doing so (?) even though everyone actually has the same end-goal in mind (banning Pheromosa).

Normally I like to wait and make a huge post after I get suspect requirements, but I don't feel like a post from me will not be necessary this time around. Everything that's been said about Pheromosa has been said already, and any comment further would only be repetitive imo. (This is actually sort of odd how united we all are on this stance, this isn't how suspect discussions normally are...)

I would like the OU Council to consider a method of speeding up the tiering process somehow, though, as I really don't like playing this game with Mega Metagross still in it. But I won't get into this too much; that's a post for another day, I suppose.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

In my opinion, this is honestly a waste of a suspect. This is not something that can be argued (should've been quickbanned). Pheromosa is Uber material and has been since it's release.

Ban

Let me quickly stop this pheromosa hate train

okay, if we're being honest, pheromosa was not initially a banworthy mon with aegislash and shit in the tier, especially since aegi literally ate phero alive

then the aoa and physical u turn sets were super predictable and people thought it was manageable. No, i am not making this up, you can literally read the discussion around this mon in the beginning of SM OU in the viability rankings and metagame discussion. phero was considered good but not broken by the majority of good players (and if i wasn't hardstuck 1730 i'd include myself in that majority kek)

only when the special sets came out did people actually realize mosa was broken.

yes, phero is disgusting, get this shit out of ou, but it's revisionist history and vitriolic arguments like this that makes reading through every suspect thread a nightmare

 

[mertyville]

I was waiting for this suspect test like forever. It feels like a deja vu like with Hoopa-U where nobody run a special set considering that monster has massive Spa and Psyshock until recently.

Besides immense speed and high offensive stats, Pheromosa boosts high base power Stab moves on both offensive sides.

While versatility is not a bad thing, every Pheromosa punishes players for sacking something with its ability Beast Boost. This is what makes sets with immediate damage output like Choice and Z-Move sets much more scary.
If the Choice Band/Specs set which usually run more speed defeat something, Scarfers won't be able to outspeed it and if a Scarf set picks up a KO, you have to be certain that your team happened to have a certain check to said Pheromosa set based on the Boost it got.

The Z-Move sets allow Pheromosa to keep massive offensive pressense even against its counters such as Toxapex and increase the chance of getting a boost from Beast Boost. And while there aren't a lot of coverage moves that could be abused by that, it has all the options it needs to get past specific mons.

Then there is Quiver Dance that can directly punish scouting.

 

[Justin Rickerman]

Hey I just wanted to put my 2 cents in on this suspect test for what it is worth. I won't acquire the required reqs to vote, but I think I have found the most solid counter to the majority of Pheromosa sets. I think the antagonistic counter, Buzzwole can pretty much eat any hit that Pheromosa can muster against it, especially when it is equipped with an Assault Vest.


Here are some calcs to demonstrate my assertion:

(OU) Quiver Dance

Fightinium Z

Modest 224 Sp Atk, 32 Sp Def, 252 Spd

@ +1

Quiver Dance 0 - 0%

Bug Buzz 22.7 - 26.6%

All-Out Pummeling 47.5 - 56.1%

Ice Beam 30.2 - 35.7%

Focus Blast 30 - 35.5%


+1 224+ SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 112 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Buzzwole: 182-215 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

(182, 184, 186, 189, 191, 193, 195, 198, 199, 201, 204, 206, 208, 210, 213, 215)


Will never 2hko unless it hits the 2nd focus miss with stealth rock, and 1 stack of spikes up. Not reliable at all… Otherwise, Buzzwole can leech life and gain health back.


@ Neutral

Quiver Dance 0 - 0%

Bug Buzz 15.1 - 18%

Focus Blast 20.1 - 23.7%

Ice Beam 20.3 - 24%

This does jack to Buzzwole, and with Buzzy’s awesome coverage something will get bopped. If he gets a beast boost, it can really get out of hand…



Here are some of Pheramosa’s other sets, but they honestly do jack to Buzzwole

wall of calcs

(OU) Scarf

Scarf

Naughty

252 Atk, 252 Spd

High Jump Kick 23.4 - 27.9%

U-turn 12.7 - 15.1%

Ice Beam 16.9 - 20.1%

Bug Buzz 12.5 - 14.8

HJK doesn’t even 3HKO if hazards aren’t up…


(OU) All-Out Attacker

Life Orb

Naïve

252 Atk, 252 Spd

High Jump Kick 27.9 - 32.8%

U-turn 15.1 - 18%

Ice Beam 20.3 - 24%

Poison Jab 22.9 - 27.4%


Does more damage than Scarf, but again you can leech life back health, and you avoid the 3HKO with HJK if hazards are gone, and she doesn’t crit.


Set Details:

Assault Vest Buzzwole

Assault Vest

Careful 112 HP, 20 Atk, 8 Def, 252 Sp Def, 104 Spd


Leech Life 43.8 - 51.9%

Earthquake 36.7 - 43.1%

Thunder Punch 55.1 - 65%

Ice Punch 55.1 - 65%

The EVs are set to hit certain benchmarks. The HP evs are set to hit a stealth rock number minimizing that damage. The Atk EVs are set to boost the Atk stat when it achieves a KO. The 104 Spd Evs ensure that you will always outspeed Belly Drum Azu. The 252 Sp Def EVs make Buzzwole an effective tank that can take on special and physical assaults. The 2 biggest fears of Buzzwole is Flying and Fairy Type attacks, which conveniently steel types resist. I think Buzzwole is being slept on atm because of this scintillating cockroach, but I think Buzzwole will be a threat that will shoot up in usage, not to mention it laughs at all sets except for Normalium Z QD set.

Subject 18 Edit: Please don't just post a wall of calc. It's hard to look at and you arent formatting it so its easy to digest. in the future use hide tags.

 

[Leo]

Hey I just wanted to put my 2 cents in on this suspect test for what it is worth. I won't acquire the required reqs to vote, but I think I have found the most solid counter to the majority of Pheromosa sets. I think the antagonistic counter, Buzzwole can pretty much eat any hit that Pheromosa can muster against it, especially when it is equipped with an Assault Vest.


Here are some calcs to demonstrate my assertion:

(OU) Quiver Dance

Fightinium Z

Modest 224 Sp Atk, 32 Sp Def, 252 Spd

@ +1

Quiver Dance 0 - 0%

Bug Buzz 22.7 - 26.6%

All-Out Pummeling 47.5 - 56.1%

Ice Beam 30.2 - 35.7%

Focus Blast 30 - 35.5%


+1 224+ SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 112 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Buzzwole: 182-215 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

(182, 184, 186, 189, 191, 193, 195, 198, 199, 201, 204, 206, 208, 210, 213, 215)


Will never 2hko unless it hits the 2nd focus miss with stealth rock, and 1 stack of spikes up. Not reliable at all… Otherwise, Buzzwole can leech life and gain health back.


@ Neutral

Quiver Dance 0 - 0%

Bug Buzz 15.1 - 18%

Focus Blast 20.1 - 23.7%

Ice Beam 20.3 - 24%



This does jack to Buzzwole, and with Buzzy’s awesome coverage something will get bopped. If he gets a beast boost, it can really get out of hand…



Here are some of Pheramosa’s other sets, but they honestly do jack to Buzzwole


(OU) Scarf

Scarf

Naughty

252 Atk, 252 Spd

High Jump Kick 23.4 - 27.9%

U-turn 12.7 - 15.1%

Ice Beam 16.9 - 20.1%

Bug Buzz 12.5 - 14.8

HJK doesn’t even 3HKO if hazards aren’t up…


(OU) All-Out Attacker

Life Orb

Naïve

252 Atk, 252 Spd

High Jump Kick 27.9 - 32.8%

U-turn 15.1 - 18%

Ice Beam 20.3 - 24%

Poison Jab 22.9 - 27.4%


Does more damage than Scarf, but again you can leech life back health, and you avoid the 3HKO with HJK if hazards are gone, and she doesn’t crit.


Set Details:

Assault Vest Buzzwole

Assault Vest

Careful 112 HP, 20 Atk, 8 Def, 252 Sp Def, 104 Spd


Leech Life 43.8 - 51.9%

Earthquake 36.7 - 43.1%

Thunder Punch 55.1 - 65%

Ice Punch 55.1 - 65%


The EVs are set to hit certain benchmarks. The HP evs are set to hit a stealth rock number minimizing that damage. The Atk EVs are set to boost the Atk stat when it achieves a KO. The 104 Spd Evs ensure that you will always outspeed Belly Drum Azu. The 252 Sp Def EVs make Buzzwole an effective tank that can take on special and physical assaults. The 2 biggest fears of Buzzwole is Flying and Fairy Type attacks, which conveniently steel types resist. I think Buzzwole is being slept on atm because of this scintillating cockroach, but I think Buzzwole will be a threat that will shoot up in usage, not to mention it laughs at all sets except for Normalium Z QD set.

Is there any reason at all to use AV Buzzwole? Its two main sets are Roost 3 Attacks and SubPunch, which it wouldn't be able to use when holding an AV and 4 attacks Buzzwole honestly doesn't seem that good. Unless you provide some actual reasoning to use it besides taking on Special Pheromosa, I don't see how it's a relevant set, slapping an AV on sonething just because it has lower SpDef than Def doesn't mean it's a good set imo

 

[toshimelonhead]

Is there any reason at all to use AV Buzzwole?

The real test imo for a suspect is how hard one has to try to find a reasonable counter for it. It's not as bad as using Dusclops to counter Mega Kangaskhan, but it's up there.

 

[Sun King]

I'm really grateful for this suspect despite enjoying using Pheromosa a lot. It was my favorite Rapid Spinner to use, and it made possible a ton of really fun Volt-Turn strategies. I'm not going to harp on Phero's problems because everyone has covered these. The reason I'm grateful is that we now get a better glimpse of the meta's key centralizing factors (one of which was Phero). I've been seeing things like Zygarde absolutely explode in usage because there is no Ice Beam threat from Phero on practically on every team. Additionally, Metagross doesn't really have to run Bullet Punch anymore, so it's reverted back to being one of the most infuriatingly easy-to-use, hard-to-face mons in the meta.

In a way, this feels a bit like the Aegi ban back in XY: banning Phero opens up the meta a lot more, so I think this is the right move to make. I'm hopeful we can get right into the swing of curing the meta of other broken mons once we ban Pheromosa, because removing her really highlighted some other broken (i.e. made better) elements of the meta (which I didn't mention only because I don't think this is the right place for it).

I look forward to seeing where the meta goes after this.

 

[Jojobobo]

Hey I just wanted to put my 2 cents in on this suspect test for what it is worth. I won't acquire the required reqs to vote, but I think I have found the most solid counter to the majority of Pheromosa sets. I think the antagonistic counter, Buzzwole can pretty much eat any hit that Pheromosa can muster against it, especially when it is equipped with an Assault Vest.


Here are some calcs to demonstrate my assertion:

(OU) Quiver Dance

Fightinium Z

Modest 224 Sp Atk, 32 Sp Def, 252 Spd

@ +1

Quiver Dance 0 - 0%

Bug Buzz 22.7 - 26.6%

All-Out Pummeling 47.5 - 56.1%

Ice Beam 30.2 - 35.7%

Focus Blast 30 - 35.5%


+1 224+ SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 112 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Buzzwole: 182-215 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

(182, 184, 186, 189, 191, 193, 195, 198, 199, 201, 204, 206, 208, 210, 213, 215)


Will never 2hko unless it hits the 2nd focus miss with stealth rock, and 1 stack of spikes up. Not reliable at all… Otherwise, Buzzwole can leech life and gain health back.


@ Neutral

Quiver Dance 0 - 0%

Bug Buzz 15.1 - 18%

Focus Blast 20.1 - 23.7%

Ice Beam 20.3 - 24%

This does jack to Buzzwole, and with Buzzy’s awesome coverage something will get bopped. If he gets a beast boost, it can really get out of hand…



Here are some of Pheramosa’s other sets, but they honestly do jack to Buzzwole

wall of calcs

(OU) Scarf

Scarf

Naughty

252 Atk, 252 Spd

High Jump Kick 23.4 - 27.9%

U-turn 12.7 - 15.1%

Ice Beam 16.9 - 20.1%

Bug Buzz 12.5 - 14.8

HJK doesn’t even 3HKO if hazards aren’t up…


(OU) All-Out Attacker

Life Orb

Naïve

252 Atk, 252 Spd

High Jump Kick 27.9 - 32.8%

U-turn 15.1 - 18%

Ice Beam 20.3 - 24%

Poison Jab 22.9 - 27.4%


Does more damage than Scarf, but again you can leech life back health, and you avoid the 3HKO with HJK if hazards are gone, and she doesn’t crit.


Set Details:

Assault Vest Buzzwole

Assault Vest

Careful 112 HP, 20 Atk, 8 Def, 252 Sp Def, 104 Spd


Leech Life 43.8 - 51.9%

Earthquake 36.7 - 43.1%

Thunder Punch 55.1 - 65%

Ice Punch 55.1 - 65%

The EVs are set to hit certain benchmarks. The HP evs are set to hit a stealth rock number minimizing that damage. The Atk EVs are set to boost the Atk stat when it achieves a KO. The 104 Spd Evs ensure that you will always outspeed Belly Drum Azu. The 252 Sp Def EVs make Buzzwole an effective tank that can take on special and physical assaults. The 2 biggest fears of Buzzwole is Flying and Fairy Type attacks, which conveniently steel types resist. I think Buzzwole is being slept on atm because of this scintillating cockroach, but I think Buzzwole will be a threat that will shoot up in usage, not to mention it laughs at all sets except for Normalium Z QD set.

Subject 18 Edit: Please don't just post a wall of calc. It's hard to look at and you arent formatting it so its easy to digest. in the future use hide tags.

I'm sure there's more things you can put an AV on, invest maximally in SpDef, and have it potentially counter most of Pheromosa's sets (for example, it the Victim of the Week thread I posted an lightly SpDef invested AV Magearna set that can withstand and counter all the Quiver Dance sets currently).

However, just because it's possible for such sets to counter Pheromosa, doesn't mean that's a reasonable or appropriate adaptation for OU players to make. AV mons often are lacking in offensive power, if they're not capable of pivoting or lack Regenerator it's pretty tricky to fit one on a team and it not be deadweight.

 

[Justin Rickerman]

I'm sure there's more things you can put an AV on, invest maximally in SpDef, and have it potentially counter most of Pheromosa's sets (for example, it the Victim of the Week thread I posted an lightly SpDef invested AV Magearna set that can withstand and counter all the Quiver Dance sets currently).

However, just because it's possible for such sets to counter Pheromosa, doesn't mean that's a reasonable or appropriate adaptation for OU players to make. AV mons often are lacking in offensive power, if they're not capable of pivoting or lack Regenerator it's pretty tricky to fit one on a team and it not be deadweight.

Well it is an adaption, and a very solid one at that. Not to mention that leech life restores its hp, so it has more sustainability than most AV users. With the appropriate team support it does put in work. I think the calcs speak for themselves. Also, this set can take on most Greninjas fairly well. The point I am trying to make is that this set can put in work, and can actually check alot of things in the tier. Pheromosa is no exception.

 

[Mame YO]

Hi. This is my first reel smogon post. I'm a long time pokemaniac and discovered showdown near the end of gen 6. I'm also an avid PvP gamer - having played various online shooters, rpgs, 4X, rts, etc... because of my preference for player va player gaming, balance is definitely a priority of mine and I can definitely appreciate what you all at smogon have built and continue to build upon.

But I do take issue in general with your balance philosophy in a big way:

Now, nevermind the fact that exposure to chip damage in the form of SR/spikes/rocky helmet/etc quickly brings pheromosa into range of many priority attacks.

Nevermind that after setting psychic terrain for mosa you still have to get her in safely, with the terrain still active, on a mon mosa can OHKO. This isn't happening via hard switch, so we're talking 3 turns of psychic terrain? If your checks/counters for mosa have been removed and she cleans up in that time - can't other mons do the same provided their checks are dealt with earlier in the game? Why is she different?

Nevermind also that the player using mosa is hyper paranoid at all times with her out, because one misprediction on their end and she dies to basically anything... you all act like you're only trying to figure out Her set. What happens if the mosa user mispredicts your set? She dies.

Nevermind that she can't run all of those sets at once, too.

What is the real problem? It's the QD/Z sets right? This is where smogon's philosophy breaks down, IMO. I was a long time WoW arena player. People didn't ask for nerfs to fire mages because frost mages were too good.So I ask: why are you constantly discussing banning entire mons rather than neutralizing specific sets/item combinations that are OP? The risk you run, and it seems this has happened before, is that you end up banning every threat to the metagame until it ends up stale and predictable. AoA mosa isn't broken. Other sets can be scouted and beaten... it's rather easy to remove QD from her movepool in smogon, for example. You keep the mon, she loses her broken sets, and we preserve variety in the metagame. I realize smogon seems to have a distaste for "complex" bans. But if you aren't willing to take measured actions, you're left with a scorched earth policy that frankly ensures that over a long enough time frame you will always end up with a stale, predictable, boring metagame.

Don't ban pheromosa. Remove QD or her ability to use Z items. This effectively removes the OP sets you are all complaining about, reduces the likely sets she runs (making her reasonably predictable) and avoids banning the mon entirely. To me, this is the type of solution that you guys seem to fear explicitly, but it solves your problem relatively cleanly.

Or we can all just ban fire mages because frost mages are op.

 

[Sun King]

Hi. This is my first reel smogon post. I'm a long time pokemaniac and discovered showdown near the end of gen 6. I'm also an avid PvP gamer - having played various online shooters, rpgs, 4X, rts, etc... because of my preference for player va player gaming, balance is definitely a priority of mine and I can definitely appreciate what you all at smogon have built and continue to build upon.

But I do take issue in general with your balance philosophy in a big way:

Now, nevermind the fact that exposure to chip damage in the form of SR/spikes/rocky helmet/etc quickly brings pheromosa into range of many priority attacks.

Nevermind that after setting psychic terrain for mosa you still have to get her in safely, with the terrain still active, on a mon mosa can OHKO. This isn't happening via hard switch, so we're talking 3 turns of psychic terrain? If your checks/counters for mosa have been removed and she cleans up in that time - can't other mons do the same provided their checks are dealt with earlier in the game? Why is she different?

Nevermind also that the player using mosa is hyper paranoid at all times with her out, because one misprediction on their end and she dies to basically anything... you all act like you're only trying to figure out Her set. What happens if the mosa user mispredicts your set? She dies.

Nevermind that she can't run all of those sets at once, too.

What is the real problem? It's the QD/Z sets right? This is where smogon's philosophy breaks down, IMO. I was a long time WoW arena player. People didn't ask for nerfs to fire mages because frost mages were too good.So I ask: why are you constantly discussing banning entire mons rather than neutralizing specific sets/item combinations that are OP? The risk you run, and it seems this has happened before, is that you end up banning every threat to the metagame until it ends up stale and predictable. AoA mosa isn't broken. Other sets can be scouted and beaten... it's rather easy to remove QD from her movepool in smogon, for example. You keep the mon, she loses her broken sets, and we preserve variety in the metagame. I realize smogon seems to have a distaste for "complex" bans. But if you aren't willing to take measured actions, you're left with a scorched earth policy that frankly ensures that over a long enough time frame you will always end up with a stale, predictable, boring metagame.

Don't ban pheromosa. Remove QD or her ability to use Z items. This effectively removes the OP sets you are all complaining about, reduces the likely sets she runs (making her reasonably predictable) and avoids banning the mon entirely. To me, this is the type of solution that you guys seem to fear explicitly, but it solves your problem relatively cleanly.

Or we can all just ban fire mages because frost mages are op.

I don't think you're really fully understanding our balance philosophy. We aim to find the least restrictive option, and it's absolutely evident how much of a constraint Pheromosa places on the metagame in terms of team building. Banning Pheromosa would (and has on the suspect ladder) remove a significant constraint on our metagame, thus removing restrictions. Banning QD doesn't change the fact that access to Ice Beam, HJK, and STAB U-Turn are all incredibly potent; and, the addition of Z-Crystals makes walling this mon still incredible difficult. You argue that you can't run all sets at once, but at the same time you cannot prepare for all sets at once. Typically, teams have to devote two slots or more to just cover Pheromosa. That's far too restrictive. As I said, banning this is simply the least restrictive option.

EDIT: As for complex bans--such as banning QD on Pheromosa or certain Z-Crystals on Pheromosa--it's much simpler to just ban the Pokemon to preserve tier integrity. Otherwise we'd have things like Mewtwo with one attack (someone can correct me on the meme, but you know what I mean) because that would technically be "balanced". We adopt a multi-tiered system, which helps preserve the integrity of competition and at the same time ensures that we don't impose absurd restrictions on every Pokemon. It gives each player the most freedom to use whichever sets they choose with whichever Pokemon they choose, rather than dictating how and what they should use any given Pokemon.

Second EDIT: I actually appreciate the time and effort you put into your post, so I'm going to address a few other elements. You posit that our tiering philosophy leads to stale and boring metagames, but in actuality, Game Freak sort of mitigates this by releasing event Pokemon, new expansions, new generations. The metagame constantly changes, and in my 3+ years of playing, I've never really seen the metagame completely stagnate; sure--there were periods of extreme stability (i.e. the XY Aegislash metagame), but we banned Aegislash to open up the metagame and revitalize what people thought was a stale meta. The end result was a metagame in which there were so many viable options that people started complaining that it was becoming matchup reliant. There is no easy answer to tiering, and that's why we have such a democratic, decentralized decision making process for things like this.

Another argument you made is that none of Phero's sets are broken individually. This is absolutely correct. But just like the Avatar, the combination of all of them within one individual leads to a massive constraint on team building. Pheromosa was omnipresent, and preparing for two of its popular sets would leave you completely vulnerable to another equally viable set. Phero wasn't like Mega Rayquaza which could start and end a game alone, but Phero forced the metagame to run specific mons and specific sets that you could argue are entirely subpar (Rocky Helmet + priority on another mon...devoting two slots just to counter one Pokemon...). There are so many signs you can point to in our metagame that prove how dominant and meta-warping Pheromosa has been.

 

[Mame YO]

It certainly doesn't sound like removing mons from play entirely gives people the "freedom to use whichever sets ... [and] Pokémon they choose" it sounds like the exact opposite. It's certainly a move that game developers would consider lazy or at least suboptimal. It's a shame that GF doesn't bother to balance their own game appropriately, but the downside to a community run effort is that you get lost in your own hive-mind and implement balance changes based on your philosophy for said changes at times without regard for the larger impact of trying to stay consistent. Removing mons from tiers should be a last resort, it should not be your go to move. Again, it sounds to me that you have done this in previous generations and ended up with boring a metagame as a result.

Mewtwo with one attack. Is this a red herring I'm smelling? We both know that you can bring anything to it's logical conclusion and make it seem silly, but that doesn't mean that everything ends up at that logical conclusion. Slippery slopes are slippery but they're also weak arguments. Especially in this case.

And I think smogon is too ingrained in the idea that you should be able to prepare for everything. There are just too many mons running too many different sets for you to expect to be able to counter everything. If you're using two slots to counter all possible pheromosa sets, unless pheromosa is on every freaking team you're probably wasting resources. If QD/Z moves are a problem on this mon and they're too difficult to counter - address that. But countering AoA mosa or specs/scarf mosa is doable, you may not be able to counter both depending on your team composition, but that isn't necessarily the end of the world either. You can't expect to be able to build a perfect team.

 

[Leo]

Hi. This is my first reel smogon post. I'm a long time pokemaniac and discovered showdown near the end of gen 6. I'm also an avid PvP gamer - having played various online shooters, rpgs, 4X, rts, etc... because of my preference for player va player gaming, balance is definitely a priority of mine and I can definitely appreciate what you all at smogon have built and continue to build upon.

But I do take issue in general with your balance philosophy in a big way:

Now, nevermind the fact that exposure to chip damage in the form of SR/spikes/rocky helmet/etc quickly brings pheromosa into range of many priority attacks.

Nevermind that after setting psychic terrain for mosa you still have to get her in safely, with the terrain still active, on a mon mosa can OHKO. This isn't happening via hard switch, so we're talking 3 turns of psychic terrain? If your checks/counters for mosa have been removed and she cleans up in that time - can't other mons do the same provided their checks are dealt with earlier in the game? Why is she different?

Nevermind also that the player using mosa is hyper paranoid at all times with her out, because one misprediction on their end and she dies to basically anything... you all act like you're only trying to figure out Her set. What happens if the mosa user mispredicts your set? She dies.

Nevermind that she can't run all of those sets at once, too.

What is the real problem? It's the QD/Z sets right? This is where smogon's philosophy breaks down, IMO. I was a long time WoW arena player. People didn't ask for nerfs to fire mages because frost mages were too good.So I ask: why are you constantly discussing banning entire mons rather than neutralizing specific sets/item combinations that are OP? The risk you run, and it seems this has happened before, is that you end up banning every threat to the metagame until it ends up stale and predictable. AoA mosa isn't broken. Other sets can be scouted and beaten... it's rather easy to remove QD from her movepool in smogon, for example. You keep the mon, she loses her broken sets, and we preserve variety in the metagame. I realize smogon seems to have a distaste for "complex" bans. But if you aren't willing to take measured actions, you're left with a scorched earth policy that frankly ensures that over a long enough time frame you will always end up with a stale, predictable, boring metagame.

Don't ban pheromosa. Remove QD or her ability to use Z items. This effectively removes the OP sets you are all complaining about, reduces the likely sets she runs (making her reasonably predictable) and avoids banning the mon entirely. To me, this is the type of solution that you guys seem to fear explicitly, but it solves your problem relatively cleanly.

Or we can all just ban fire mages because frost mages are op.

The main issue with complex bans (such as banning QD Phero) is that there isn't a limit to it. Why not just unban all ubers to OU and give them only 40 Base Power moves? If we allow one complex ban, then the same argument could be made for a lot of clearly broken mons that have been banned already. Adjusting mons just to fit them into a metagame is pretty bias imo, if a mon is straight broken because of some aspect then we shouldn't try to nerf them to put them into the same level of the OU mons, we just ban it.
Edit @below: a mon's viability in ubers is irrelevant to its ban. If a mon is too good for OU but not good enough for Ubers we can't nerf it to adjust it to a certain metagame

 

[Mame YO]

And then if the mon is not viable in Uber's you..... say goodbye?

This is not something game devs would do. I'll tell you that. In fact, it's something that game devs try to avoid at all costs. Removing game content does not make a healthy game.

Again - if one simple thing can be done to bring a mon in line, you should consider it over banning a mon entirely. Answer me this: QD sets are the problem right? You aren't worried so much about AoA, to stick with that example, it hurts, but you can beat it... right? Why are you so insistent that banning QD mosa is an unviable balancing tactic? I understand that it circles back to your distaste for complex bans, again using examples that are not realistic (Ubers with 40bp attacks, cmon...) - but if you truly care about the health of the metagame you should be looking at options like this.