Metagame np: Stage 5 - Eruption (Cameruptite and Typhlosion Banned)

[Mega-Swampert]

Got reqs, so I might as well post my thoughts.

In order to decide if something is ban-worthy, there must be some criteria that a pokemon must fit in order to determine whether or not it is ban-worthy. Well, to my knowledge, if a pokemon is overcentralising or overpowered it should be banned. Overpowered means there is too little checks/counters for a mon, or it can overwhelm most(if not all) of it's checks/counters. Overpowered can also mean it's ridiculously good at something, or a combination of the former two definitions. Overcentralising means that a pokemon is too much of a focus during building/playing.
Let's see if typh/mega-rupt fit either(or both) of these conditions.

Mega-rupt: It does have a very large amount of checks, due to it's low speed and high vulnerability to water/ground attacks. However, if it gets a free-switch(not that difficult) it can deal a high amount of damage, or potentially ruin a switch-in with a status move. It can also set-up rocks with the switches that it does force. Something I haven't seen mentioned by people that say something along the lines of "mega-rupt isn't broken, it dies to water STAB," is that most water types can't risk switching in due to it's ridiculously powerful secondary STAB. And if you do sack something, then it simply switches out. It's not like it's going to lose any boosts is it? It's neutrality to stealth rock makes it an even bigger threat. Overall, I'd assume this fits the criteria for ban.

Typhlosion: It has 3 main sets it can run: scarf, charcoal and specs. Any one of these can sweep teams, so it is a threat to be prepared for. However, it can be checked quite easily on all playstyles, by a variety of mons. It can run coverage, but the thing is it's locked in to that coverage, which means it can be taken advantage of. Let's say that I go to mantine on a typhlosion, and my opponent makes a good predict and uses hp electric. That's cool, but now he's locked in and I can use that free turn with a ground type to wreak havoc. It is a big threat, and should be taken account of when teambuilding/playing but it isn't too overcentralising, as it does have a plethora of checks/counters and it's coverage can be used against it. I'd say no ban.

Sorry if anything doesn't make sense.

 

[Quite Quiet]

Got reqs, so I might as well post my thoughts.

In order to decide if something is ban-worthy, there must be some criteria that a pokemon must fit in order to determine whether or not it is ban-worthy. Well, to my knowledge, if a pokemon is overcentralising or overpowered it should be banned. Overpowered means there is too little checks/counters for a mon, or it can overwhelm most(if not all) of it's checks/counters. Overpowered can also mean it's ridiculously good at something, or a combination of the former two definitions. Overcentralising means that a pokemon is too much of a focus during building/playing.
Let's see if typh/mega-rupt fit either(or both) of these conditions.

Typhlosion: It has 3 main sets it can run: scarf, charcoal and specs. Any one of these can sweep teams, so it is a threat to be prepared for. However, it can be checked quite easily on all playstyles, by a variety of mons. It can run coverage, but the thing is it's locked in to that coverage, which means it can be taken advantage of. Let's say that I go to mantine on a typhlosion, and my opponent makes a good predict and uses hp electric. That's cool, but now he's locked in and I can use that free turn with a ground type to wreak havoc. It is a big threat, and should be taken account of when teambuilding/playing but it isn't too overcentralising, as it does have a plethora of checks/counters and it's coverage can be used against it. I'd say no ban.

I have to disagree with this. Even choice locked Typhlosions have a very easy time to overwhelm all of it's checks/counters since almost none of them have reliable recovery to switch in more than once or twice before dying to even Eruption, even less so when Stealth Rock is up. It might not overpower everything in it's way like Glalie or Serperior did when they were around, but having checks and/or counter doesn't making it fine by default. And while Mega Camerupt might do it first, Typhlosion also have the option to Wisp its switch ins to wear them down for later, even on the choiced sets even though it's less common. Not to mention thanks to Typhlosion's much higher base speed it force just as many switches as Mega Camerupt does, and have a much higher ability to clean up late game; something Camerupt will almost never manage to do.

A ban note in this case shouldn't be decided on the hard facts if it fits an arbitrary description of broken or not, as if it did, they both would have been suspected long before now. The question to ask should really be if having Typhlosion (and Mega Camerupt) is healthy for the metagame at large, or if their presence centralize the meta to an unhealthy/undesirable degree; something I personally believe is the case for Typhlosion.

 

[eden]

OK so lets jump into the new suspect tier :). This suspect not surprisingly involves two of the Pokemon that seem to rule NU at the moment; especially now that one of their better offensive checks in the form of Feraligatr is gone. Coming to the crux of the matter,speed seems to be the main difference between the two with Mega Camerupt's speed holding it back from becoming a more centralizing force. It tips a player's hand at the team building stage,but in actual game play it's more a of nuisance than anything,being checked by checked by a variety of Pokemon most used of which is Hariyama which one might argue is popular as a result of Fire Spam's usage as a play style. It shares most of its counters with Typhlosion but the similarities end there. Camerupt is limited really to one good hit on the incoming check,especially if said check carries water type coverage as is becoming common right now,also the lack of leftovers restricts its use as a bulky pivot,but Typhlosion with its high base speed tier can easily land 1 hit on its incoming check, switch out and soften it(the check) up for the next time its forced in by Typhlosion's presence.

Typhlosion user's have also gotten smarter over time,opting instead for a Charcoal set giving them most of the power of a Choice Specs set but with the ability to cripple incoming Hariyama switch ins with Will-o-Wisp, and dent its other checks in the form of opposing Typhlosion,Ninetales,and Lanturn with Earthquake. Flash Fire is what really tips Typhlosion over the edge, because now it can actually perform a defensive roll in the form of checking opposing Fire Types. I won't say that banning Typlosion will make Fire Spam itself a less relevant play style as there is still an abundance of good fire types in the tier such as Magmortar,Pyroar,and Ninetails, but it will definately balance the NU metagame a bit more. In summary Cameruptite: No Ban, Typhlosion: Ban probably.

 

[ryan]

I agree with SweetJesus that the main problem with both Typhlosion and Mega Camerupt is that each other exists. Mantine is a great answer to Mega Camerupt, but it's a mediocre Typhlosion answer because of its Stealth Rock weakness. The standard 252 HP/0 SpD Calm set takes roughly 33% from an Eruption, which means it can only switch in once with Stealth Rock. From there, you're forced into a 50/50. If you Defog, you get 2HKO'd by Eruption, and if you Scald, you risk giving up free momentum and being forced out with Stealth Rock still on the field. Meanwhile, all the best Typhlosion answers are weak Camerupt answers. Hariyama has a high chance of getting 2HKO'd by Mega Camerupt's Earth Power after Stealth Rock unless you run max SpDef or Careful nature, and it hates being burned by Will-O-Wisp. SpDef Seismitoad can barely take two Earth Powers, and even then, there's a chance for it to be 2HKO'd if Stealth Rock is up. Rhydon is easy to Speed creep with Camerupt, so it can't even check Mega Camerupt offensively unless it's running a good amount of Speed. The list goes on. It's nearly impossible to beat both Typhlosion and Mega Camerupt in one slot, and all the best checks to both can still lose to both depending on what they run (HP Grass, HP Electric, Will-O-Wisp, Substitute, Earthquake).

Either of these Pokemon would be much easier to deal with if the other wasn't in the tier, but even on their own, the opportunity cost for Mega Camerupt and Typhlosion is minimal. Somebody else mentioned that by playing more offensive, Mega Camerupt is easier to deal with. While this is true, you really have to play more offensively to beat it without Mantine or Lunatone. Otherwise, the Mega Camerupt user can take advantage of certain members of your team and get at least one kill really easily. For example, when you bring in your Mawile to check the opponent's Scyther, you're giving a free switch to the opponent's Mega Camerupt. This is a more harsh example because the Scyther user gets to bring in their Mega Camerupt immediately, but it's still a very realistic scenario. As a less brutal example, if you bring in your Vileplume on a Hariyama, you're giving a relatively free switch to your opponent's Camerupt unless you're running Sleep Powder, which means you're not running Hidden Powder Fire and are complete setup fodder for Substitute Klinklang. You can double switch as the Vileplume user, but you're at a strict disadvantage because your Vileplume took free damage and there's a chance that your opponent might not even bring in their Camerupt.

Basically, Mega Camerupt forces balanced and stall teams to play aggressively around it unless they carry one of basically one and a half counters to it (Camerupt has plenty of room for Rock Slide or HP Electric to 2HKO Mantine). There just aren't enough countermeasures to it in order to allow it to stick around in NU. Typhlosion has more checks, but all of them can lose depending on the set or even just the coverage they're running. Both of these Pokemon are too powerful for this metagame and should be banned.

 

[firehusky]

Yay! Finally got reqs :]

Anyways I used two different teams during laddering, trick room with mega camerupt and rain. Mega Camerupt is super scary on trick room as it can pretty much outspeed everything as its low speed becomes extremely fast under trick room. Yeah it definitely has checks but none of them can even come in under trick room and even without trick room up they still take loads of damage by switching in on earth power. Many of its checks and counters can be taken out with a coverage move as camerupt can often forgo stealth rock or will o wisp for a coverage move. Archeops is bopped by rock slide or flash cannon, while mantine is hit by HP electric. Mega Camerupt also can offer plenty of utility, being able to check mawile, rotom, while also setting up stealth rock. It can even spread burns with will-o-wisp; some of its checks and counters such as hariyama and archeops are crippled by burn. Definitely BAN.

For some weird reason I actually didn't see too much typhlosion on the ladder. However, I've changed my opinion on it. I used typhlosion a bit and specs set hit extremely hard and scarf sets can act as really good revenge killers or late game cleaners. Even sets such as the earthquake and wisp set can easily neuter its checks and counters. Typhlosion and Camerupt are actually kind of similar to that extent; both are pretty versatile and some pokemon aren't even counters at all depending on the sets that typhlosion and camerupt are running. Changing my mind and I'm going to vote BAN.

 

[elodin]

I've been playing NU for a while now and I think both Camerupt and Typhlosion have to go. Mega Camerupt is just really dumb overall because it has close to 0 switch-ins and still supports the team a lot by checking numerous threats and setting up Stealth Rock when needed. It's just too strong for the tier and honestly it should be gone. Most of its checks are crippled by Will-O-Wisp anyway, so it's not like you have a huge variety of things to go with when you want to stop it, and even if you bring a Mantine / Pelipper / Hariyama it'll probably still impact the match a lot in some way.

Typhlosion kinda works on the same way, but it's way less harmful for the tier imo. The biggest problem about it is that not only it has very strong STAB options (Eruption and Fire Blast) which really limit teambuilding, but it also has 2 coverage options that can basically destroy your team depending on what they are. For example, during my suspect matches I faced a Typhlosion that had Wild Charge and Hidden Power [Water], and my team basically lost one Pokémon each time it came in because I was relying on Mega Camerupt and Pelipper to check it. And yes, I probably could've played better, but my point still stands. Typhlosion can adapt so easily to what its team needs while still doing so much by only spamming powerful Fire moves it's just stupid. While I do agree it has several checks due to its lackluster Speed tier and poor typing that makes it hazards weak, but I just feel like it limits teambuilding too much in order to remain on the tier.

 

[honchkrow]

Ive been lazy but i still want to get my opinion out so i may as well do it now.

Mega Rupt is incredibly broken in this tier because it can ohko/2 hit ko over half the tier. It even hits its resists hard, doing over 50% to a max hp pelipper for example. If you dont have a mantine or yama on your team, you are forced to sack a mon or let a mon get severely weakened everytime it finds a free switch in. I have used this monster a lot, even under trick room. I can confidently say that it is unhealthy for the meta and SHOULD be banned.

Regarding typhlosion, i go back and forth. Things like yama are not 3 hit ko'd by typhlosion's STAB whereas yama will drop to 3 earth powers from mega rupt. Also, in order for typhlosion to be a huge threat, it usually has to choice itself. Im pretty sure people have brought this up but i think its important enough to reiterate. Having to run a fire check on all your teams should not be a reason to ban typh. If you run a typh of yourself, 9 times out of 10, your opponent will be reluctant to click a fire move. There are other flash fire mons in the tier if you want to avoid using typh. My point being that you can play around it. Typhlosion is a huge threat however people have found ways to deal with it because it has been NU since the beginning of xy. Lastly, i know typh has a high base speed but there are plenty of things that outspeed it and ohko it. I know its good, but i dont think its broken. im voting no ban.

 

[fran17]

After playing a bit on the ladder here's my opinion on the suspects

I really think that Camerupt has to go, his high special attack combined with sheer power make him a huge threat for every team. Even checks like Mantine or Hariyama can lose to Camerupt due of his incredible coverage (Hariyama can be burned by WoW and Mantine can be donked by Rock Slide/Ancient Power). Also almost of his checks don't have a reliable recovery and they can be worn down easily. I'm going to vote ban

Typhlosion has a very strong stab in Eruption that limit teambuilding, but people learned how to play around it, and being weak to rocks doesn't help too. Also even if with choice specs become ridicously strong there are many things that can revenge kill it because of his low defense, and with a choice scarf he loses a lot of power for wallbreaking. I don't really think he should be banned so i'm going to vote no ban

 

[eden]

The problem with both of these Pokemon is that they can pick and choose their counters. Which is one factor that definately makes them suspect if not ban worthy.

 

[Punchshroom]

Gonna post my thoughts on the suspects, regarding their advantages, flaws, and possible movesets:

MegaRupt has an insanely powerful dual STAB combo that for the most part necessitates the use of Fire resists that can also take its Ground moves, so no Lanturn, Flareon, Rhydon or anything like that, meaning it only limits teambuilding even more than pre-ORAS Fire spam which people were already complaining about. Its movepool is pretty sparse and leaves it with little versatility, but MegaRupt has all it needs to succeed. Aside from dual STAB, MegaRupt can simply pick and choose its remaining moves; between Hidden Power Electric and Will-O-Wisp, most if not all of its counters get pretty much crippled, while Stealth Rock can be used for utility if MegaRupt can afford to drop a coverage move, or even RestTalk if it simply favors longevity. While MegaRupt's horrible speed and lack of reliable recovery mean that MegaRupt's time on the field only lasts so long, the camel can usually dish out tons of damage by the time it gets knocked out. Not only that, but its newfound bulk coupled with its sheer strength also present two more problems. The first is that MegaRupt can actually switch into stuff, mostly preying on the likes of Fairy-, Grass-, Poison-, Electric-, and Steel-types, and you can expect any non-mono team to run at least one of these to give you at least one free shot at the opponent. The second is that its bulk means that if its switch-ins don't deal enough damage to it, they can be in for a much rougher time (looking at you, Grumpig >.>), and only justify the use of MegaRupt's harder counters that can deal with it more quickly, which again restricts the meta's diversity.

The speed is the biggest factor holding MegaRupt back, since switching into its attack and surviving allows the switch-in to attack before having to eat another hit. It helps that (most of) its counters do outspeed it, plus MegaRupt can be checked by Water-types provided they survive the initial attack. That said, they can only do so realistically once, and most of them aren't even the most reliable at that if they bear a weakness to one of MegaRupt's attacks, which is problematic when you consider MegaRupt generally has room to tailor at least one of its moveslots.

When I said MegaRupt was slow, keep in mind it can still get around that to an extent; offensive Mega Camerupts can reasonably creep base 40s or lower such as Gurdurr, Rhydon, and Carracosta, then proceeding to smash them into oblivion before eating a hit, while going full speed lets MegaRupt barely creep neutral base 50s (though they can creep right back with like 16 EVs :P), all while retaining just enough bulk to survive the hits it needs to. The RestTalk set opts for more special bulk so that it can actually wait out its sleeping duration, but even without offensive investment it still hits like a damn truck (especially against offense), with the bonus of the opponent being unable to predict around MegaRupt's powerful Sleep Talked attacks.

A Pokemon with that calibre of power that claims to switch into things way more often than other Pokemon switching into it is on very shaky grounds of being considered a healthy metagame presence. I would vote for BAN on this.

Let me just start off with this: Typhlosion has arguably the best power-to-speed ratio of all NU Pokemon, and is a huge reason why it managed to define its speed tier. It's always been known to shower the opponent with Eruptions, and doesn't even let up when it gets weakened due to Blaze skyrocketing its Fire Blasts' power back up to crazy strong levels again. Not only that, but it certainly has the coverage to get around in the form of Extrasensory, Hidden Power, and even Focus Blast. While MegaRupt is outsped by most of its counters, Typhlosion outspeeds practically all of them, meaning good counters need to be able to take two Eruptions from Typhlosion. Considering the sheer power of the move, only the very bulkiest of Fire resists can hold this claim; even Fire resists that aren't known for being frail, such as Samurott, do not make for a good Typh switch-in.

In terms of flaws, one can only really say that Typhlosion is frail and weak to hazards, though it's still not frail enough to get OHKOed by just any neutral STAB move. Getting worn down does weaken its Eruption but can inch it into its Blaze range, letting Typh regain its power. The introduction of Flash Fire led me to believe that: 1) there is now a notably greater risk in simply slapping a Choice item on one's Typhlosion, 2) the lack of Blaze means that wailing away at Typhlosion is no longer always risky, and 3) the fact that offense can afford an offensive Fire spam check can make Firespam (and Typh) subsequently easier to handle. For the most part, I was right.....for 1) and 2). The fact is that Charcoal Typhlosion has established itself as a very effective standalone force from the standard Choice Typhlosions, and can afford moves such as Will-O-Wisp, Earthquake, and even the occasional Wild Charge / Thunder Punch to catch usual counters off guard, as those moves don't get locked in. Meanwhile Flash Fire Typhlosion offers newfound defensive utility, greatly deterring the use of Choiced Fire moves or even simply Will-O-Wisp, so instead of treading carefully on Typh's health, you now also have to be wary about launching any Fire attacks. Not to mention it's not like Blaze and/or Choice sets have gone extinct either, so the meta would have to prepare for an even greater variety of Typhlosion sets. Did I mention Charcoal can bluff the Choice item?

Even when its standard sets got slightly nerfed, its presence in the meta only became even stronger due to its increased versatility, as it manages to rebound with a greater number of powerful sets. With the meta forced to revolve around each of its threatening sets, Typhlosion is presenting itself as an even more overcentralising force now than it was before, and it would likely be for the best that Typhlosion gets exiled from NU before the meta fully succumbs. Gonna have to vote BAN for this as well.

 

[Orphic]

Guys is it worth noting that in the next usage stats we're likely to lose toad and quag as well as M-Rupt anyway, all 3 of these are viable checks to Typhlosion and in the case of toad, M-Rupt as well. Should we take this into account when deciding if we want our next meta to be overran by Typh if we choose not to ban it, considering we're losing some of the few checks.

 

[Kingler]

Guys is it worth noting that in the next usage stats we're likely to lose toad and quag as well as M-Rupt anyway, all 3 of these are viable checks to Typhlosion and in the case of toad, M-Rupt as well. Should we take this into account when deciding if we want our next meta to be overran by Typh if we choose not to ban it, considering we're losing some of the few checks.

Just saying, this shouldn't affect the decision at all; the suspects are based on the current meta and people should vote only with the current meta in mind. Yes, we might lose Mega Rupt, but what if it drops down again? A threat or its checks moving up or down in the next tier shouldn't affect its ban status for the meta it's banned in.

edit- it can always be retested if there is sufficient demand for the same :o

 

[Orphic]

Just saying, this shouldn't affect the decision at all; the suspects are based on the current meta and people should vote only with the current meta in mind. Yes, we might lose Mega Rupt, but what if it drops down again? A threat or its checks moving up or down in the next tier shouldn't affect its ban status for the meta it's banned in.

Hence, I asked the question, should we consider it. I agree with what you're saying but I for one will naturally consider it in my choice, as will lots of other people I think we'll find.

EDIT ~ yes i know it can be re-tested, but another suspect ladder filled with even less checks for the same mons doesn't really sound desirable.

 

[Tom Bus]

The COIL is mine. I didn't have strong opinions on these two mons before laddering, but I did feel like camel had the usual traits of something banworthy.

Mega Camerupt has no reliable switch ins and can come in fairly safely against common things like Garbodor, Mawile and Vileplume, giving it a free turn to set up rocks, deal huge damage or burn something with will-o-wisp. It's unusual for Camerupt to do less than set rocks up and get one KO in a game. It also has the attribute of being a stealth rocker that threatens Xatu. I think it should get banned for having no reliable counters and the ability to do work every time it comes in.

Typhlosion doesn't seem broken to me. I had the same thought as Gizmo that Typhlosion in NU is like Keldeo in OU; it's very good, and all teams should prepare for it, but there are counters that can be used without making your team bad against teams that don't use Typhlosion. Pokedots mentioned earlier that Hariyama is the most used mon in NU, and while that is largely due to its ability to check Typhlosion, it's also a great check to other threats like Sneasel and Lilligant. Prinplup, Mantine, Lanturn, specially defensive Regirock and flash fire users are also able to handle Typhlosion fairly well in most cases. It's important to note that most Typhlosion switch ins don't have reliable recovery, but Typhlosion's stealth rock weakness somewhat balances this because passive damage will wear it down quickly. Typh has been in NU for a long time, and it's definitely a threat to prepare for, but I don't think it's banworthy.

Credit to tennis, Kilo and The Goomy for providing me with quality teams.

 

[Tricking]

Ok then... after getting reqs I can say that Typhlosion is more broken than I thought.

Both the suspect Pokemon, as everyone has mentioned, are lacking of reliable switch-ins. They are very centralizing in the tier and they limit the teambuilding a lot. They have also good opportunities to wear down Pokemon such as Mantine and Hariyama thanks to their good movepool. Therefore, I think that banning them from the tier could be a chance to get a new cool Metagame and some Pokemon would raise their usage and NU will become a various metagame. By the way, even if I think it's banworthy for the what I stated in my previous post, I'm not sure to vote for its ban because I think that its presence is helpful to deal with some Pokemon such as Uxie, Mesprit, Mega Audino, Articuno. So i will vote BAN for Mega Camerupt and DO NOT BAN for Typhlosion.

By the way in this suspect ladder i've been using Life Orb Special Samurott a lot. It can take care of both the suspected Pokemon and can be used with Aqua Jet to deal better with Typhlosion. I liked Double Dance Rhydon a lot, too; it can easily sweep the opposing team and it doesn't have any counter when boosted.

It has been a funny suspect (despite of the tons of hax on the ladder).

 

[guest57]

Ok then... after getting reqs I can say that Typhlosion is more broken than I thought.

Both the suspect Pokemon, as everyone has mentioned, are lacking of reliable switch-ins. They are very centralizing in the tier and they limit the teambuilding a lot. They have also good opportunities to wear down Pokemon such as Mantine and Hariyama thanks to their good movepool. Therefore, I think that banning them from the tier could be a chance to get a new cool Metagame and some Pokemon would raise their usage and NU will become a various metagame. By the way, I won't vote for the ban of Typhlosion because I think that its presence is necessary to deal with some Pokemon such as Uxie, Mesprit, Mega Audino, Articuno. So i will vote BAN for Mega Camerupt and DO NOT BAN for Typhlosion.

By the way in this suspect ladder i've been using Life Orb Special Samurott a lot. It can take care of both the suspected Pokemon and can be used with Aqua Jet to deal better with Typhlosion. I liked Double Dance Rhydon a lot, too; it can easily sweep the opposing team and it doesn't have any counter when boosted.

It has been a funny suspect (despite of the tons of hax on the ladder).

Sorry, you raise some good points, but I have to disagree with your end result. Smogon has never supported the so-called "slippery-slope fallacy" that if one broken pokemon is banned, more will rise up and become even more broken. If there is a broken element in a metagame, we ban it. If other things become overcentralizing/broken too, we ban those as well. In OU's mega-Metagross suspect, it was brought up many times in the thread that M-Meta was necessary to deal with fairies. That argument was shot down time and time again, and it doesn't apply to any tier more. Since you state that you think it is broken, you probably should ban it.

Anyways, now that I've gotten that out of the way, since I have reqs, I may as well state my opinions. Personally, I would vote BAN on both suspects, but most of my reasoning has been stated by other people already :p. I hope you vote ban on both too!

 

[eden]

Now that I have reqs I may as well say it. I now want to ban both,because Typhlosion is just able to weaken its checks easily throughout the course of the game,possibly opening a late game sweep for itself,while Mega Camerupt makes Grass type Pokemon an inherent liability in defensive cores,the former has checks in the form of Thick Fat Hariyama,Prinplup,and Mantine but said checks don't have reliable recover, and Mega Camerupt can blast through these Pokemon rather easily with Earth Power(2HKO'ing Yama and Prinplup after Rocks) or OHKO Mantine with Rock Slide after SR. A lot of the NU usage is warped around Fire types most prominent of which is Hariyama. Of course Fire Spam doesn't do much on suspect ladder but that's only because everyone is doubling and even tripling up on checks. I used Hariyama,Prinplup,and Mega Camerupt so of course Fire Spam didn't trouble me too much,but that doesn't really prove anything except that its a play style that I have to overcompensate for,leaving me wide open to any other team archetype. I'll voting ban on both then I think.

 

[DrReuniclus]

Nearing the end of my laddering here and just wanted to post my thoughts on the two. First I wanna talk about mega camerupt. Truthfully, I didn't see much of this mon on the ladder and only tried it out really early on in my laddering, but I didn't feel as if I used it to its full capabilities, however I faced many people who did. Mega camerupt is a destructive wallbreaker that has very few quality switchins, such as mantine (which can still be hit by a stray ancient power/ rock slide) and hariyama (which still takes a ton from earth power) and it EXTREMELY limits what is viable in the tier. It is also able to tank at least one nonsupereffective hit from almost anything in the meta and ko most of the mons back. And even though the speed on this mon is pitiful, it can use it in conjunction with trick room that can devastate basically any majorly offensively inclined team and destroyed me on one occasion. I'm going to be voting ban for mega camerupt because I believe that it is unhealthy for the meta and over centralizing as heck.

As for typhlosion I feel as if it is pretty unhealthy as well. I have been running it on a solid sun team and it has been doing a lot of work for me thus far. I not much can switch in on a sun boosted eruption from a choiced typhlosion at full health and not take a HUGE chunk of damage if not completly destroying it. Whenever it came in, it almost always got a good hit or two off on something with very few exceptions. One of those exceptions happens to be other typhlosion, which caused some of my matches coming down to who can actually hit more focus blasts and caused me to put an av hariyama on my team just to avoid this scenario and even then if hariyama went down, there wasn't much that is stopping typhlosion from destroying the rest of the team, without me adding another check to my team just for it. I will also be voting ban for typhlosion as well, even though I had a ton of fun using the mon, I feel as it narrows teambuilding too much and is destructive for the meta so I will also be voting ban on this mon.

I also want to thank all the nu staff/council and users, I have had a great time playing this tier and I hope to participate in it more in the future.

 

[bird crew]

Got reqs, I'm still not completely decided on if/who to ban but here are my thoughts. Typh is a solid NU mon that definitely deserves its S tier ranking. It has 3 very versatile sets it can run that, and the charcoal one in particular can dispose of its so-called "counters." However, any team that can do maybe 2 of these: 1. keep up hazards 2. has priority users 3. has a faster scarf mon 4. a fire resist, can whittle down typh's HP outside of eruption range where it becomes considerably less threatening. I'm leaning towards no ban on typh as I find this mon to be fairly manageable by a variety of play-styles (HO, stall, bulky offense, only seems really threatening to balance). As a side note, I find the reliance on counters like yama and mantine to be rather unnecessary, and would instead suggest users EV mons to survive two typh attacks or life one and outspeed.

On the other hand, mega-rupt has proven to be incredibly strong by NU standards. Its dual stab, strong bulk, lack of choice restriction, and support moves distinguish it as one of the strongest and most-centralizing forces in the game. Not only does it force switches and put on heavy damage, it can reliably cripple its "counters" while also possessing the bulk to take almost any hit apart from a water move or a strong EQ (which in some cases it can even barely live). If played properly, it will almost always rack up more damage than is dealt to it, and has enough additional options that allow it to go beyond its role and spread status/get up rocks. This mon is simply too strong for the tier, and so I'm thinking of voting ban on mega-rupt.

 

[Hootie]

Got my reqs and here's my stance right now: both suspects considerably limit team building making any teams without multiple fire checks forced to sack something almost everytime they come in on something slower. Typhlosion specifically is a huge problems since its speed is very good making it a pain for offense to kill it outside of revenge killing. Any normally safe switch ins like Hariyama get completely screwed over by its Charcoal wisp set turning an otherwise reliable Typh check into a complete liability. Its specs set has so much power that checks like Mantine can only switch in once when rocks are up. Though it does have its inherent flaws such as being weak to Stealth Rock unlike Mega-Rupt, but it's more than made up by its previously mentioned speed stat. Even if its eruption gets weakened by repeated SR switch ins, the opponent has to still play around with Blaze-boosted Fire Blast which if it comes in for free on something slower, then something is going to have to be sacced. Now that it has Flash Fire it also becomes one of its best checks making it more apparent that this thing is centralizing. This Pokemon hinders team building due to its limited pool of checks and counters while making offense struggle to fine safe switch ins therefore I vote ban on Typhlosion.

In regards to Mega-Camerupt this thing is absolutely disgusting. It has barely any 100% safe switch ins since Mantine and Pelipper risk getting hit by Rock slide or HP Electric and bulky Water-types like Seismitoad cannot switch in to Earth Power very well unless they are specially defensive. The fact that Vibrava of all things is the best switch in to this should speak for itself here. Yes it's true that it has slow speed and has to predict these Pokemon to come in, but the Camel player has it in his favor since their opponent has to either sac what it switched in on so their checks can come in safely or sacrifice their offensive momentum just to find a switch in for this monster. Its bulk is pretty good too and the fact that it's neutral to Stealth Rock make taking it down easier said then done despite the common weakness to water and ground. It's too hard to play around this thing to not have do some serious damage to the opponent's team and has virtually no safe switch ins so I'm voting ban on Mega Camerupt.

 

[blinkie]

Ok got reqs so time to post reasoning etc I guess.

Thoughts on Typhlosion:
I am on the fence right now but leaning towards no ban. It is almost always Choice locked, so it isn't too hard to play around. For example, if he tries to HP Grass Seismitoad, then Scyther can set up on it. Its speed tier, while good, still leaves it outrun by stuff like archeops without Scarf. IDK if Flash Fire is good for Typhlosion or not. On one hand, Typhlosion now can counter itself and check other Fire-types, but it loses Blaze which made Fire Blast scary after several SR switchins. While there is some opportunity cost, it has made Typhlosion more versatile. Scarf is good vs offense and Specs vs slower builds, but there are still several decent, non-niche(vibrava lol) answers to Typhlosion which prevent it from being broken in my opinion. However it is pretty overcentralizing, as evidenced by the high usage of Hariyama. Now what pushed me to being on the fence was the Charcoal set, as it can help Typhlosion get past all its usual answers. While it sacrifices the choice item, now you cannot mindlessly send in your Typhlosion check. I at first thought Typhlosion was pretty one-dimensional, but it seems borderline too good for NU.

On the other hand Mega Camerupt is a monster. It has basically 0 answers, and doesn't even need to run a lure set to kill its counters. Typhlosion has pitiful bulk which is complimented by a SR weakness, but Camerupt has none of these. While it is slow, and cannot even outspeed most stall mons, its bulk is great for a wallbreaker, and hits insanely hard without having to be Choice-locked. Every time it comes in on offense, something dies. The 4x water weakness is not as crippling as you may think, for example, it can live Mantine scald LOL HOW?? Also there is little opportunity cost in running it compared to the other mega, Mega Audino as they fit on different team archetypes. All of this makes banning Mega Camerupt a no brainer IMO.

 

[Slimmer]

Oook reqs achieved
well
Mega Camerupt is, without a doubt, too much broken for NU tier. Its solid bulkyness allow it to tank almost any non-supereffective hit, replying with powerful stabs boosted by SF. Also it can run mixed sets in order to take over its most common answers as Pelipper, Mantine and other bulky waters. Wow cripples solid physical attackers as Kanga/Tauros/etc, it can set rocks quite easily, even though it's really slow. I think it deserves to be banned.

About Typhlosion:
well then, this is more controversial. Typhlosion's eruption fears the whole tier: scarfed destroys faster mons and specs wallbreaks. Typh can run also other sets as charcoal and its coverage moves (FocusBlast, HP Grass/Electric, EQ) let it hit hard even against fire resistance (though specs eruption can 2hko many of them with hazard support).
However, Typhlosion needs several support in order to smash teams by itself: SR weakness cripples its harder move (Eruption), and choiced sets force it to switch a lot; 100 base speed is enough to get revengekilled by lot of mons (Tauros, Archeops, Sneasel, Swellow and so over), while scarfed set can be checked by more mons as AV Hariyama etc; it can check itself w/Flash Fire, forcing 50/50 mindgames between typh users;
I thought about these points and for the moment I'm for a ban; there are so many good ways to keep the field clean in order to make it destroying, it's so really hard to scout without taking too much damages on checks/counters (that are not so many) and the pressure it deals is really strong, maybe too much for NU. It's not the most broken mon of the tier, neither centralizing (I'd look more at swellow/sneasel), but its presence in the tier is not healthy imo.

 

[Senpai D.M]

Thoughts after reqs..

Mega Rupt 2ohkos the tier and limits teambuidling, it also has enough bulk to outlast checks throughout the match. If you dont have a Mantine or Hariyama its not a fun mon to play in the tier. Its clearly unhealthy for the meta and I'd say BAN

Tyhplosion Honestly dont really understand this supect. Never had trouble with it on the ladder. I felt the charcoal set is pretty cool to see but not broken. The main argument I see is checks get worn down which is true Tyhplosion also doesnt like switching into hazards and isnt as bulky as camel it wont last very long imo. "Its checks dont have recovery" neither does Tyhp.. I'd say NO BAN

 

[Ares]

So you were probably using one of 3 things, Hariyama / Mantine / SpD Rhydon. If you don't use one of those things (or a lesser used fire stop) your team is going to get ripped apart by a well played Typhlosion. I can understand not wanting to ban it, but not understanding why it is being suspected in the first place is a bit weird. Its been in the tier for so long that most people just assume that means that its fine, but it is a defining force in the meta and deserves its spot on the suspect slate regardless of whether you vote dnb or ban.

 

[-gizmo-]

Finally getting around to posting this after getting reqs. My final thoughts on the Pokemon on the chopping block:

At first I truly wondered how Camerupt could be broken. It has a (for the most part) poor defensive typing, as well as a terrible speed tier outside of trick room. Once i started playing I realized that this thing is actually quite bad for the metagame. It's just such a low risk pokemon. It doesn't need much to function whatsoever as its glaring weaknesses are easy to cover, while the pokemon that can hit it can't even really switch in anyways! Most switchins catch a wisp or a powerful sheer force boosted stab to the face, or just a free turn to grab rocks since camerupt forces out soooo much... This pokemon is just too easy to use for the reward it hands you. I'm going to have to say BAN

It took me even longer to decide on whether or not typhlosion is an unhealthy pokemon, but at this point I'm leaning towards the ban side. This thing along with camerupt really make the tier stagnant, with a lot of effort being directed at nothing other than preventing fire spam at any point in the game. On top of that, typhlosion is more versatile than it's given credit for. Charcoal wisp does great vs more balanced builds, scarf forces offense to constantly sacrifice,specs annihilates stall, and then there's the power herb solar beam/hp water/wild charge/fire blast set which is hilarious, though i'm not sure how good it is(worked really well in practice) I feel like this pokemon just puts too heavy of a strain on teambuilding, creating a metagame where all teams look a little too similar. BAN