NevadaNerd
Banned deucer.
The fact that people were advocating for putting an LC mon in the same tier as mega-raquaza just shows how far gone pokemon democracy is.
This is one of the worst arguments ever. Quagsire was actually used in DPPT ubers (it even has a smogondex page), solrock is kind of used in AG, being a tier D pokemon in the viability rankings. Even pyukumuku in USUM OU found its way into OU teams, while being a PU mon.The fact that people were advocating for putting an LC mon in the same tier as mega-raquaza just shows how far gone pokemon democracy is.
Just told you that goth is bad against balance and you now tell me that goth invalidates balance by himself ??Pretty much everyone who's pro-ban is well aware that Goth sucks against offense. That's not the point. Goth is stupid broken against balance, forcing you to run stupid shit like Bugceus that aren't viable against anything else. A mon that makes you run specific shit that sucks against everything else is one of the definitions of overcentralizing.
The "strong point" of Goth is that it's stupid good against an entire popular team archetype. That's pretty significant. If you're running balance without some meme shit to counter Goth, you're absolutely screwed. It forces every balance team to drastically change how they operate.
I don't know why you keep mentioning "powercreep", first off DM is the only new major threat in Ubers I can think of. Second, this "powercreep" clearly hasn't affected Goth at all since people are still using it and teams are still being constrained to deal with it.
So what if there's other options? Defog Yveltal sucks. Scarf Xern is situational and sucks against a lot of shit, other balance included. A bulky Arceus form is still the backbone of a balance team, whether it's defogging or not.
Goth is not a bad mon or unviable by any means. You're not playing a lot of games against it if you think that it is. Maybe you don't have experience teambuilding or in tours but Goth is pretty frequent, it makes playing balance (which is a perfectly fine playstyle otherwise) extremely risky as well as stall.
Thanks for posting your thoughts Blim, your reasoning covers a lot of good points and tempted me to reply in the first place. One thing that distinctly caught my eye in your post was the phrase “guessing game”. Technically, are we not playing a guessing game by running Gothitelle? You are either leaving a hole on your team versus a particular playstyle or attempting to wield an advantage against another playstyle. The reality is that the Ubers tier is essentially a guessing game. It is far too difficult to build a team that effectively covers Dusk-Mane Necrozma, all Primal-Groudon sets, Primal-Kyogre, Marshadow, SD Arceus, CM Arceus, Zygarde variants, Ho-oh and stall. You are either rewarded by preparing against your opponent well enough or punished for bringing linear builds constantly. I personally do not see a problem with having a Pokemon that would punish someone who likes to run bulkier teams every week. Frankly, I think it is very competitive if you can correctly use Gothitelle against someone and obtain a favourable match-up, such as what Orch did in ORAS UPL. Usually though, such endeavors have failed as I have personally experienced.I'm disappointed that the Gothitelle / Gothorita ban failed but not surprised, I think it objectively makes the tier worse because it rewards guessing games with team-match up and not skill - Gothitelle / Gothorita's isn't broken in the traditional sense like a mega-rayquaza but it's combination of shadow tag / decent typing / bulk allows it to be a cancer in the meta, you'll always be at risk of instantly losing an important part of your team because you couldn't switch out in a turn-based game that's... based on your ability to switch out. There is simply no counter-play to this strategy, other than 1.] bring hyper offense, 2.] absurd double predictions that very likely won't work anyway, 3.]shed shell on everything?, or 4.] Hope your opponent doesn't bring Gothitelle / Gothorita. The plus side of this is that Gothitelle's usage is so low that I doubt it will matter that much on ladder, it's a worthwhile risk but it's annoying in the sense that there is nothing realistic you can do about it other than bring hyper-offense or hoping you don't run into it.
Although you said, “personal opinion”, “mons becomes a clicking game” isn’t a real argument. In that sense we should just ban stall because it leads to a clicking battle.+ removes player agency (being forced to sit there for 50+ turns is no fun, mons become a clicking game...)
I urge you to be as unbiased in your pro-ban argument, as clearly you have exaggerated the degree of Gothitelle’s coverage colossally. Gothitelle only traps Choice Specs Xerneas / Yveltal if you’re able to fodder something first to allow a free switch-in, moreover, stating “not locked into specs moonblast or a dark type move respectively” is essentially like saying “I can beat Dusk-Mane Necrozma with Xerneas after Geomancy if they don’t run Sunsteel Strike.” You are mentioning situational scenarios which should not be used as your rudimentary argument. If you are worried about being trapped by Gothitelle with bulky Dusk-Mane / bulky Ho-oh, a simple fix to this would be running a Z-move on them. Gothitelle is not the reason Blissey, Skarmory and Toxapex run Shed Shell, it is in fact Gengar-Mega, since the latter actually receives formidable usage in the Ubers metagame. The only Pokemon Gothitelle traps that have an impact on the metagame are support Arceus, Lugia and Ferrothorn. Although from your post, I am made to feel that Gothitelle is this superpowered overlord that eradicates numerous Pokemons’ viability – unfortunately, statistics have shown the exact opposite.Gothitelle consistently traps defensive arc fairy/water/ground, lugia, ferrothorn, scarf/specs xern/yvel not locked into specs moonblast or a dark type move respectively, tyranitar, some zygarde sets, celesteela, defensive ho-oh, defensive dusk-mane, excadrill, and additionally, gothorita/gothita traps foul play locked yveltal, chansey, and forces blissey, toxapex and skarmory to run shed shell.
I'm not sure what you would consider "a lot of things", but I'm sure this list qualifies. Regarding team structure, the introduction of breakers like marshadow, dd dusk mane and sd ultra necrozma mean that balance builds are usually hard pressed to cover every option. This means that the removal of a single check or revenge killer for one of these can result in an easy 6-0 for the gothitelle user. I challenge you to show me a balance or stall build that doesn't instalose to several gothitelle + breaker pairings.
I don't care what you told me, Goth is devastating to balance, even if its running specific shit to counter it. Supportceus, Scarf Xern/Yveltal, Ho-Oh, even certain Mence sets are all staples of balance that lose to Goth.Just told you that goth is bad against balance and you now tell me that goth invalidates balance by himself ??
Nice kekker
I feel like this is much the same as the argument you used in OU for keeping an S- rank, and it seems that the crux of both these arguments is an assumption that the title 'Ubers' has some special meaning (like assuming that the title 'S-' has some meaning beyone being a classification). These are just labels that we, the community, apply to help us categorize things.if Ubers started banning things on a more consistent basis ... it would eventually lose its identity as, well, a banlist-gone-tier. If too many things are "too strong" for Ubers then what's the point of Ubers in the first place?
I don't know how I feel about just banning Solgalium Z altogether, and that's because of the other Pokemon that has access to it:-If Solganium Z is banned, not only will Necrozma-DM be able to stick around, but it will also likely remain a top-tier threat that can wield a bajillion sets, hell, it could even try diet breaker sets but with Psychium Z or even regular old Steelium Z this time around. Despite this, its most polarizing and controversial set is now heavily weakened, which in turn allows for builders to better account for Dusk Mane when making their teams. Defensive checks would now be able to run way less bulk considering the pretty significant drop in power from 200 to 160 and the inability to bypass abilities, and those "freed up EVs" could allow them to be customized to handle multiple other threats better, which, again, allows for better role compression and reduces strain on teambuilding, the main concern with all these strong sweepers.
This would be considered banning an element of a Pokémon in an attempt to nerf it, which isn't an option with our ban policy. The only reason Hyponosis is banned on M-Gar is because sleep trap is considered a loophole in the sleep clause.I don't know how I feel about just banning Solgalium Z altogether, and that's because of the other Pokemon that has access to it:
It'd be ludicrous to call Searing Sunraze Smash a suspect-worthy move on Solgaleo, an objectively inferior version of Necrozma-DM in the most crucial ways: worse Attack, no Swords Dance (has to rely on Work Up to boost Attack), no Rock Polish (would have to fit Flame Charge and a Jolly nature [which only weakens its attacks further] if it wants to outrun Modest Scarf Yveltal, and it has no hope of getting past Timid Scarf whereas Dusk Mane can at +2) , no Stealth Rock, and no Prism Armor to weaken opposing super effective attacks during a sweep.
If anything, I think the best way to go about a Searing Sunraze Smash suspect is to just remove it from Necrozma-DM only. We pretty much already set a precedent with banning Hypnosis on Mega Gengar. We didn't ban Hypnosis entirely; just removed it from Mega Gengar's options. I believe that if we were to go about banning Searing Sunraze Smash on just Dusk Mane, not only would it bring about the changes that you listed, but it'd also give Solgaleo something that Dusk Mane would now lack; a 200 base power STAB, but without all of the positives that Dusk Mane brings to the table. In fact, I can see a set of Work Up / Sunsteel Strike / Wild Charge / Earthquake or Flame Charge w/ Solganium Z being an ok breaker/sweeper set for Solgaleo all things considered.
That's not an argument for banning it. Firmly grasp the English language and respond to what I actually said.This is one of the worst arguments ever. Quagsire was actually used in DPPT ubers (it even has a smogondex page), solrock is kind of used in AG, being a tier D pokemon in the viability rankings. Even pyukumuku in USUM OU found its way into OU teams, while being a PU mon.
You must contextualize, and because of that this argument holds no meaning. It’s not about gothirita’s tier, it’s about why she’s used and why she’s good in what she does amongst ubers.
Yep, it really is amazing how people are unwilling to treat this like a real tier and move on.So much salt in this thread like Jesus just accept Goth is staying and move on lmao
Wondering if those crying have even been a part of a suspect before
Ah, thanks for contributing to the discussion by dismissing all complaints and discussion as "salt".So much salt in this thread like Jesus just accept Goth is staying and move on lmao
Wondering if those crying have even been a part of a suspect before
Our results are already in and the verdict is that Gothitelle and Gothorita have not been banned. Feel free to use this thread for thoughts on the metagame and the now finished suspect test, but keep it civil!
There is a problem to this though. Sure, the sweeper itself does not need to waste the cost of a moveslot (sometimes 2) + a turn (sometimes 2) to set up and get the boosts, but it's not completely cost-free. You can't ignore the fact that instead of using a moveslot you're instead using up a WHOLE Pokemon to make those boosts possible (and in the case of BP chains an entire team!), and most of the time these mons are subpar junk that can't do anything apart from Baton Pass boosts and is literally worse than a dead Pokemon if you're even switched on against their strategy. Given how much of a fuss we made about Goth removing a Support Arceus or anything else it's pretty safe to say sacrificing a Pokemon to use as BP is a very real cost. The highest ranked Pokemon in our Viability Rankings that can BP anything is Mega Scizor in B+ - that says a lot about the cost of making BP work. So no, running BP does not eliminate cost of running set up moves at all.Baton Pass eliminates the cost of setup moves. Setup moves typically require the Pokemon to give up one (maybe two) moveslot(s), limiting room for coverage and thus creating a limit for the amount of Pokemon they can easily defeat post-setup. Furthermore, using a setup move consumes a turn, which gives the opponent a chance to switch to a check or to attack the setup Pokemon in order to weaken it for revenge killing. This kind of cost forms the counterplay against setup moves and requires the player to consider carefully when and how to use setup, which is an interesting strategic choice in a given Pokemon match. Baton Pass undermines this by giving the recipient free boosts without the need to sacrifice moveslots, as well as giving it to them safe from harm - this reduces the cost of setup to zero.
This is debatable. It takes a certain skill to 1) make a BP chain that doesn't fall flat to common threats and 2) you still need to adapt to your opponent's ability to stop you from executing that BP. As for other simpler passers like Speed Boost passers, Smashpassers and stuff, you have to manage to be able to keep what is normally a pile of crap alive so you can get those boosts passed off in the first place.Baton Pass does not require skill to execute. This directly harms Ubers's goal to preserve a competitive metagame.
I'm not going to bother going into specific BP counterplay and whether they are viable or not because I'm rambling on a lot already, but I'm just going to note the bolded part about brute force. Actually, the best way to beat a BP chain is literally just hit it really hard. Normally setting up with Ekiller turn 1 is a silly move but with BP you literally use that mentality. Essentially, if you give BP no time or put it on negative time you win. I'm simplifying it a lot here, but like if you slap GeoXern turn 1 vs their Scolipede, click Geomancy while they Sub/Protect and then start spamming Moonblasts, what the fuck can they do? They can end up passing Smeargle and putting you to sleep, passing to their SpD passer (which usually ends up using CM), they still die to you if wake up within 2 turns. I've done this to way too many BP chain users to count and sure they can use Roar to get rid of you or use shit like Topsy-Turvy but the fact remains that you have impeded their progress. Like shit if they just Roared you out the only thing they've probably achieved is get to +6 Speed. Keep hitting them really hard and prevent them from getting free set up. Look I know I'm really simplifying this but really, the best way to beat mindless shit like BP is be mindless yourself. I find it ironic that people hate on BP for being mindless when the best way to beat it is to just use that hammer and treat it as a nail.Baton Pass has precious little counterplay other than stopping the chain, which is very difficult to do as tools such as Magic Bounce and sleep-inducing moves shut down most options to break the chain. While the sheer power of many Uber Pokemon helped keep Baton Pass in check in past generations, Baton Pass teams continue to get more tools to work with each generation, and brute force is no longer enough.
Or, you can just ban Eevium Z.1. Eevium Z does not hurt competitiveness on its own. While it might seem obvious that a move that gives +2 to all stats is busted, Extreme Evoboost is only usable by Eevee, which is zero threat on its own. Rather, it is Baton Pass that allows such a move to be abused to dangerous extents, and banning Eevium Z does not do anything to alter or disprove the logic behind Baton Pass's uncompetitiveness. Therefore, we conclude that the problem is Baton Pass.
2. DryPass is nonexistent in Ubers - the only Pokemon that can make use of such a strategy is Mega Mawile, which is frankly a terrible Pokemon in the metagame. Thus, collateral damage from banning the move Baton Pass is also nonexistent. Furthermore, just because there exists a "competitive" way to use some uncompetitive element doesn't mean that element is fine. For example, a "competitive" way to use Mega Rayquaza would be to run an Iron Ball and no EVs on it.