Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Honestly, both of you are experienced players with accurate knowledge of the meta game and have solid opinions. The elimination of the game limit did not eliminate the skill cap of players who can achieve requirements for voting. 82% GXE is still a significantly large number for most most of the player base. My thoughts on breloom and buzzwole are this, there are enough checks to both Pokémon and in my experience of playing the suspect ladder I haven’t found them to be too strong. Flying types like Togekiss and Crobat, as well as bulky Grass walls like Amoongus check Breloom. Buzzwole is walled by itself and Breloom’s checks as well. I think both are a healthy change for the rather bland UU meta. I am a friend of the working player, the “Charizardlover9000” as Kink so eloquently put it. I’m not sure if achieving reqs makes one a better player because ladder isn’t the most accurate test of skill, however it is fun building teams and testing these Suspected Pokémon. I also might add that Cookeees is an experienced player thst had been top of ladder on multiple occasions and is a skilled and out of the box team builder. The fact that even he almost failed to achieve reqs in the game limit is proof that a game limit is not a fair way of dividing the skilled players from those learning the tier.
Tried too hard to get reqs with stall, but eventually gave up on that and went back to my roots with offense. Even though there's no longer a game limit, I challenged myself to get reqs in 65 and got it on the last game lol.
As for thoughts on Loom/Buzz, I agree with pif that Breloom seems more threatening than Buzzwole. Spore + offensive presence is really difficult to switch into and although Breloom has more reliable checks than Buzzwole, Breloom has the movepool to punch through "checks" like Sap Sipper Azu and Buzzwole with sets like SD + Facade or Natural Gift. That being said, I would generally trust Buzzwole to check both Breloom and itself, and I think that banning Buzzwole would make Breloom harder to deal with. I'm leaning towards no ban on both, but I'm still undecided about Breloom.
Here's the team I used if anyone is interested! I don't think it's amazing but I had a lot of fun using it and I hope some of you guys do too! http://pokepast.es/f80bd5db05f16301
just copped reqs in 62 games, have a few quick thoughts regarding buzz/loom/COIL in general
Buzzwole is broken as all hell, i'm voting ban, and i don't believe any argument can sway me otherwise. Legitimately every set is close to broken, and it's incredibly difficult both to switch in and to revenge kill the mon. One of the primary problems with buzz is that it's next to impossible to accurately gauge which set it is from preview, and as a result no 'true' blanket check exists. LO, BU, and subpunch are all extraordinarily threatening, regardless of the build you're using. common defensive switch-ins like sylv, togekiss, and crobat are all bopped by pjab/z-rock, and at +1, legitimately only fast special attackers can revenge it. don't see how this mon is healthy or conducive to a balanced metagame. I'm leaning like 90% ban
While i personally believe that breloom is relatively tame, i would be amenable to hearing some pro ban arguments. It's relatively easy to find a blanket check to the mon, and most of its counterplay overlaps with that of serp, meaning that it's not hard to fit checks/counters on next to every build. While SD sets can be threatening, you ultimately have to choose between power, bulk, and nat gift gimmicks when using loom, meaning that it can be difficult to either sponge hits or get kills, depending on your set. leaning around 65%ish do not ban
In terms of COIL/GXE reqs, imo 82 gxe should be the benchmark we ideally move forward with. prior to the council vote on serp/azu, i had no idea people actually schemed for the TC badge. i talked to a few dudes on the ladder who hovered around ~79 gxe and they basically said they didn't know too much about the tier and just wanted to get reqs. prob for the best that we avoid this in future tests.
big shoutouts to hogg hikari and the showdown admins for being actively involved with this process and making sure that suspect tests move forward smoothly
It's a fact, I wouldn't have time to get reqs but still, I would like to share my opinion on both Breloom and Buzzwole.
Personally, I don't like Breloom at all and I feel like it should stay BL for one main reason : Spore.
Spore is an annoying move but even more on an offensive threat like Breloom. I think it's unhealthy to have to run a Grass Type Pokemon in UU team right now if you basically don't want to sac' something as a Sleep Fodder. Unlike Amoonguss which doesn't have a great offensive presence, Breloom can be really threatening and Spore gave it the opportunity to eventually set-up with SD (of course, that mean that it would not run some coverage and will be reduce to Bullet Seed / Mach Punch). But you need to scout if it has Spore or a coverage like Rock Tomb, Natural Gift (Ice / Fire) and it really sucks because you lost a lot of Momentum and eventually resource while doing that. The fact that Breloom can easily lure the vast majority of its checks is dumb too.
Exemple : Breloom vs something like Swampert, Hippowdon or non Sap Sipper Azumarill. You can't just send your check like Latias / Crobat / Mega-Altaria because you take the risk to come on Spore and that mean Breloom will have invalidated your Pokemon for a couple of turns. On the other hand you can't just send your Amoonguss / Defensive Mega-Altaria because you take the risk that Breloom SD on the switch or just nuke your Altaria that hasn't Mega-Evolve yet with NG Ganlon Berry. Crobat can't come on Rock Tomb neither non Choice Scarf Latias which get outspeed by Adamant Breloom after Rock Tomb (and basically 2HKO by this attack if Breloom has Life Orb). And even soft check like Serperior which can come on Spore can be easily weakened by Breloom itself which can 2HKO with LO Bullet Seed and Mach Punch (or just SD and OHKO with Mach Punch).
• 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 135-165 (46.3 - 56.7%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 146-173 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 292-344 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Of course this calcs shows LO Breloom but even Jolly non LO Breloom can weakened Serperior with ease (around 21-65% with Jolly non LO Bullet Seed depending of how many hits Breloom gets). Imo, Breloom is unhealthy for UU so it should stay BL.
Weirdly, I feel like Buzzwole is not as threatening as it was. Of course it's a versatile threat with a lot of great set (SubPunch with Lefties / Fightinium Z and almost what it need in coverage which mean that you need to Scout its set ; Offensive Bulk Up with LO / Rockium Z / whatever you want ; Defensive Wall ; Scarf or Band etc..). On the other hand, it's super frail on the Special side and I feel like the fact that Breloom is almost everywhere make people run a lot of things that can also deal with Buzzwole unfortunately.. (Crobat w/ Infiltrator, Mega-Altaria with Hype Voice etc..). However I have to admit that Buzzwole under a Substitute is super hard to deal with especially if you didn't have the time to scout its Coverage because you can easilty lose 1/2 or more Pokemon vs it (Ice Punch hits Gliscor / Amoongus / Latias / Crobat on the switch ; Eq deal with Tentacruel / Doublade ; Poison Jab does a ton to fairies like Sylveon / Primarina / Mega-Altaria or Azumarill..). Tbh I think Buzzwole ia still a little bit too much for UU and should stay BL as well.
Breloom: from what I've seen and played these days breloom in practice can be a very big threat but only if your team is slow enough and lacks fight resists, its bad speed tier and the mediocre bulk make it an easy target to revenge kill or check it in different ways. of course all this is compensated with its extraordinary offensive capabilities to have access to boosting / priority moves and the most important of those spore. not having a sleep fodder vs a breloom match up can mean having to play with 5 mons sometimes but, in a meta where serperior checks are abundant I dont think will be very complicated to face it in the long term.
Buzzwole: at this moment isnt the biggest threat in the tier but its versatility makes it unpredictable. it can run any set you want or your team needs Choice / z move / LO with the coverage you need EQ / Poison / stone / ice punch this means that even if you have something to check it, it may fail if it has the correct set. all of this in addition to its physical bulk, getting under a sub isnt a hard work for it since there are a lot of fodders for it. I could post a lot of calcs that show how bulky it can be but I think this is enough.
252+ Atk Gliscor Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 264-312 (74.1 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Went through 3 alts until I got one with a decent enough win streak to qualify for the vote. This suspect was a pain in my ass because I'm not keeping up with the meta, but I do find time to do these suspects every few months. Shout outs to Cookees for posting his team in the thread so I could steal and recraft it for my own. Shout outs to Lapras! for continuously for kicking my ass and then posting the team he kicked my ass with so I could use it and kick other peoples asses. Below I have three replays that made the suspect all worth it for me. fb bliss - sub ph loom - defog pressure
:Opinions on the suspect:
I don't know. Buzzswole was heavily prepared for on almost every team I came across so I can't really tell if people are centralizing it or if its just a top tier threat. I used a buzzswole and played against one with stall. Breloom is fine. Poison heal is an interesting stall killer if you they dont run azu. I'm going to have to read some of the thread before I vote because even after playing a total of 150 games overall on this ladder, I still feel uncertain of the unhealthiness of these two mons.
One more shoutout to sparrow that has helped me on the previous suspects. Don't know where he is but he is an awesome guy!
Finally got reqs after going through a bunch of different alts, most of them with 8wins 2losses kind of records.
Gotta give a shoutout to Cookees for the team that I stole and ended up using for the entire suspect test run, it's extremely solid. Shoutout also to KuraiTenshi26 and Waszap along with the rest of my university's draft league for helping me make sure that I didn't tilt off the face of the planet when I was playing my last ~5 games earlier today (@marty13612 you don't have a smogon profile but ur the GOAT).
Anyways, thoughts on the 'mons.
Breloom is good, but like, not banworthy good in my opinion. While Spore is undoubtedly extremely strong and borderline unhealthy on such an offensive 'mon (which has been said to death), running Spore on Breloom means one of two things - it has SD + Mach Punch + Bullet Seed, in which case it gets walled by 'mons like Sap Sipper Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Crobat, etc. OR it has Spore + LO + Three Attacks (Mach Punch, Bullet Seed and Rock Tomb usually), in which case it's just not very strong, since without the threat of SD it just... doesn't hit very hard.
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 101-123 (29.4 - 35.8%) -- 25.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Scizor: 113-134 (32.9 - 39%) -- 9.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 117-141 (40.2 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Not to mention that all these calcs are with LO + Adamant, which means that not only is it slowly killing itself with LO recoil, but the speed tier is less than stellar, leaving it outsped by stuff like 20 speed Tentacruel, which is just sad.
ALTERNATIVELY, it can also carry no Spore, in which case I've seen stuff like SD + Three Attacks, usually the third being some jank like Focus Punch, Stone Edge, Z-Giga Impact (that's my set!!), Natural Gift + Lansat Berry, in which case without Spore one can just treat it as a normal offensive mon and take advantage of its less than stellar defenses and just revenge kill it easily with stuff like Scizor Bullet Punch, Infernape Mach Punch, etc. However, it should be noted that Buzzwole is one of the hardest checks/counters to Breloom in the metagame right now in my opinion, especially with the full tank Rocky Helmet set, and since that was on my team I found exceptionally difficult for Breloom to do anything to my team. That being said, the general sentiment I seem to be getting around the ladder is that Breloom should stay and Buzzwole should go... in which case, UU loses a premier Breloom check, so I'm almost not sure how conducive that is to a healthy metagame. If anything, usage of stuff like Perish Trap Azumarill will go up, and that's almost expected with the ubiquity of Serperior in the tier right now anyways. Overall, I'm leaning towards do not ban right now, but I'm more than willing to hear out some pro-ban arguments.
This 'mon, however, is lookin HELLA BUSTED and I don't think its healthy AT ALL in this meta. My reasoning is that the level of physical bulk that it approaches is really, really stupid. I know others have said it above, but when a Bug-type is a pretty safe check to Scarf Infernape's Flare Blitz... there's something a bit wrong there. The thing is, however, that Buzzwole doesn't even have to be just physically defensive. It's decent speed tier and high attacking stat allows it to pull off offensive substitute sets as well, and it's LO boosted superpower is pretty much a nuke.
I really do think that it's physically defensive set is the best set it has right now, and I want to post some calcs to illustrate how stupid bulky it really is.
252 Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 204-240 (48.9 - 57.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 192-228 (46 - 54.6%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 306-362 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (why does it eat a sheer force boosted flare blitz???)
252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 348-412 (83.4 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (umm.. why does it eat an attack that its 4x weak to...?)
The mere presence of Buzzwole in this tier essentially invalidates many physical attackers. Beedrill, Lucario, Cobalion, Krookodile, Heracross, Stakataka, etc... are all completely at the mercy of this 'mon. Bug/Fighting is surprisingly good defensively, essentially hard walling other fighting-types. And it's really hard to safely switch into this 'mon as well, since like others have said, it's coverage is pretty good, with stuff like Poison Jab for fairy types, Ice Punch for Latias/Gliscor, Earthquake for fire-types, etc. Either way I'm leaning towards ban for Buzzwole, I can't imagine it not centralizing the tier around itself to an unhealthy degree in my opinion.
apologies if some of this post doesn't make too much sense, i was up till 4am last night so im rlly fkin tired right now
edit: the team i used: http://pokepast.es/84261d1943c23b4e
it's cookees team but i changed pursuit > knock on scizor and that's really about it
So after playing against Buzzwole with dedicated Buzz checks and a semi counter-playstyle, I've decided I'm going to vote ban.
This is a mon that radically redefines the viability of all Pokemon in the tier. Even something lack +6 Azu can't reliably deal with this mon.
Traditional options for dealing with bug or fighting type options are invalidated (say, a typical Chandelure or Latias) due to Buzz's bag of tricks, including AV - which it can still get away with due to its natural raw strength and moves such as Leech Life. Buzz is similar to Hera in terms of its raw strength, but what sets it apart is its survivability, which causes majority of teams to have dedicated ways to beat Buzz. When teams need to start solely planning for one mon, it creates natural exploitable holes in the rest of their team, causing a complete lack of balance.
Day-to-day, I'm the kind of builder that tries to prepare for as many threats as possible. Anything I can't prepare for, I attempt to outplay. I think this kind of playstyle is a crucial component of UU right now, where "solid teams" can be built from a plethora of options, where matchup is no longer as much of an issue as is "very good play".
Whereas Breloom/Houndoom add to the dynamism of having more fun toys (we were using Amoonguss/Serprior on every other team as a token Grass-type, and finally Hydrei/Krook fanatics can have a new Dark-type in Houndoom to create interesting team combinations, not to mention M-Dooms unique pre-evolution abilities), I think Buzzwole undermines the integrity of a non-centralized UU, which is an element that I think is necessary for a tier to remain healthy.
TL;DR Buzzwole is overcentralizing and too versatile to remain in UU. We want the UU tier to stay in a good place. I will vote ban on Buzzwole and unban on Breloom since I feel it and mega doom add to the overall flavour of UU without ruining the steak.
i used a bunch of random shit to get tour / council reqs and i think buzzwole is so clearly broken. it's obscenely bulky, has access to reliable recovery, boosting moves, an unnecessary amount of coverage, good typing for this meta, is strong as shit, and overall constricts teambuilding to the point where u gotta run shitty flying type coverage on pokemon like gliscor and mamoswine just so u aren't a total fucking dead weight against it. this mon would have a negative impact on the tier and i'd like it banned
as far as breloom goes, it's slow, it's frail as fuck but has access to spore which makes it slightly more annoying to check but not hard. a lot of its checks fit naturally onto teams and i think re: the spore argument it's just a little thing that people might have to start preparing for (though it isn't hard to work around by any means.)
I have to agree with most of the posts thus far, Buzzwole is still as annoying as I expected it to be. It is offensively way too unpredictable and strong for something that checks such an absurd amount of threats. It isn't unbeatable per se but it is so effective that it tends to centralize the metagame way more than any 'mon should. Scouting which set it is running can be extremely costly which is why its unpredictability is such a nuisance. I'll therefore vote to get it banned.
I honestly didn't know what to expect from Breloom and it turned out to be easier to deal with than I expected. Spore is obviously a powerful asset but Breloom itself is rather slow and frail which means it doesn't get that many opportunities to get a free hit off. There are several 'mons that can outspeed it and threaten it (you should run sludge wave on your tentas btw, it also helps vs serp and azu!) reliably without fearing mach punch too too much. It is definitely good vs offensive teams but I don't find it threatening enough to be ban worthy. I'm not 100% sure how to feel about Breloom honestly but I'll probably vote to unban it knowing that we can always reconsider it later if turns out to be better than it appeared to be this suspect.
side note regarding the ambipom situation: I dont find a reason to care nearly as much as a lot of people seemed to. It'll be D rank for a few months and that's about it, rising to uu doesnt necessarily mean it is good enough for the tier as shown by things like Arcanine which has yet to drop to RU.
edit: ambipom was hardly ever used in nu/ru so it really isn't that big of a deal.
I have to agree with most of the posts thus far, Buzzwole is still as annoying as I expected it to be. It is offensively way too unpredictable and strong for something that checks such an absurd amount of threats. It isn't unbeatable per se but it is so effective that it tends to centralize the metagame way more than any 'mon should. Scouting which set it is running can be extremely costly which is why its unpredictability is such a nuisance. I'll therefore vote to get it banned.
I honestly didn't know what to expect from Breloom and it turned out to be easier to deal with than I expected. Spore is obviously a powerful asset but Breloom itself is rather slow and frail which means it doesn't get that many opportunities to get a free hit off. There are several 'mons that can outspeed it and threaten it (you should run sludge wave on your tentas btw, it also helps vs serp and azu!) reliably without fearing mach punch too too much. It is definitely good vs offensive teams but I don't find it threatening enough to be ban worthy. I'm not 100% sure how to feel about Breloom honestly but I'll probably vote to unban it knowing that we can always reconsider it later if turns out to be better than it appeared to be this suspect.
side note regarding the ambipom situation: I dont find a reason to care nearly as much as a lot of people seemed to. It'll be D rank for a few months and that's about it, rising to uu doesnt necessarily mean it is good enough for the tier as shown by things like Arcanine which has yet to drop to RU.
It's Ambipom now. Next is supposedly Mamoswine, which actually is viable in UU and is looking at rising through artificial inflation through the will of a single person.
Anyways, regarding the suspect stuff because I should stay on-track here.
I'm not getting reqs, but I vehemently agree with Buzzswole being ban-worthy. I'm legit fitting Crobat on every team I can just so it can't subpunch me to death, working trick in everywhere so it can't just bulk up me to oblivion, and praying it's not something like a z-move bulk up. If it had one set, it would be manageable, but it has multiple under its belt, which makes it a problem.
Breloom, I actually haven't seen enough. Offensive Spore, in theory, causes issues, but it's mostly gonna punish bulky waters, and offense can usually play around it well enough. Kinda 50/50 here.
And Euphonos got to top 100 on the ladder using Belly Drum Marill. And pif stayed #1 even when he was using Flash Slowking on his stall teams. What's your point? Just because it's usage-based does not mean it can't be manipulated (either directly or indirectly). Back in Gen V, some people playing RU just spammed hundreds and hundreds of games with Sticky Barb Metang to the point where Metang jumped from PU to RU.
It is unfair because its usage is not representative of its viability in this tier. Can some one get to #1 on the ladder with Arcanine? Absolutely. Does that mean that Arcanine is good in UU? Not at all.
And Euphonos got to top 100 on the ladder using Belly Drum Marill. And pif stayed #1 even when he was using Flash Slowking on his stall teams. What's your point? Just because it's usage-based does not mean it can't be manipulated (either directly or indirectly). Back in Gen V, some people playing RU just spammed hundreds and hundreds of games with Sticky Barb Metang to the point where Metang jumped from PU to RU.
It is unfair because its usage is not representative of its viability in this tier. Can some one get to #1 on the ladder with Arcanine? Absolutely. Does that mean that Arcanine is good in UU? Not at all.
You understand that the viability rankings are just opinions right? That the letter rankings and posts are just a hiveminded collection of mostly the same ideas week after week right? That it's not an objective, measurable thing? If it's as unviable as you say, it should be COMPLETELY impossible to beat teams using "viable" mons. Ambipom isn't Magikarp. How can you possibly think something getting you to #1 on the ladder is non-viable? The UU community should have been able to curbstomp Aim's teams from ever reaching high ladder but they didn't; I think it just bothers you that something outside the meta found success.
Does that still count if most of the usage comes from the high ladder AKA the people most likely to learn how to use subpar/one trick/gimmicky pokes? Because the way you describe it makes it sound less like the poke is bad and more like it's just really hard to use and fit into teams. If that's the argument you're going with, then we might as well blacklist the whole C rank and end this silly Ambipom hatred mumbo jumbo.
The meta in general is how i predicted. Gengar is where I said it would be, stakataka is falling out of usage, etc. I was wrong about marowak it's actually not that good. I've really enjoyed mega abomasnow, because a user of ice shard that also sets up is quite valuable and if you want you can run it with aurora veil. Scizor is also still incredible so i'm not gonna say abomasnow is a god or anything but you get me. I had a lot to say about the suspect test, but I kept my mouth shut because i know the TLs are still figuring things out and it would be a dick move to criticise it this early. Here are my thoughts on the points in the thread, though:
I dont care about ambipom for two reasons:
1) People have a tendency to treat metagames and smogon in general like an episode of Law and Order. There's room for jokes here, people.
2) If x youtuber decided to get weedle up to OU, it would be perfectly fine. It would even be fine if they decided to do it with xatu, an actually important lower tier mon. Why? because the argument right now is "it isnt fair for lower tiers". Well, what you're asking for is for the argument to be flipped around and to stop high tier players from using ambipom, essentially resulting in someone being forced not to use what they want to use. It's either lower tier players are forced not to use ambipom or higher tier players are forced not to use ambipom. Naturally, higher tiers always win and if you don't like that, play a higher tier, but you cannot stop what has always been the case.
Bottom line: we are just as bad to force people not to use something as we are to force them to use something. Let things happen the way they are happening: liberally.
As for the suspect... it seems to be leaning obviously one way. Breloom no ban, Buzzwole ban. I was right about breloom, being the one to initially bring it up, it's basically very similar to serperior in some ways (yes, i get that it's a bad argument on paper, but in practise i'm 100% correct). People threw a whole bunch of points in my face about breloom basically being over the edge because it has a wide variety of sets, but again only in practise will you realise they all have flaws for one reason or another. I get that if you dig really deep it's easy to say why breloom vs serp is a bad argument, but if you just play the game you'll see i'm right in essence, and that's all that matters, not some weird theoretical points. All that said, the one thing that can push it over the edge is spore. That's the only thing though, not some natural gift / z edge / toxic orb shenanigans. But alas, it is slow and has a pretty mediocre typing, so it doesn't often get off a spore without getting down to sash.
Buzzwole on the other hand, in some ways i consider similar to mega latias in the sense that people don't really get just how big of a defense and attack stat it has. Like, its stats are huge enough that by itself it should be off the table, let alone all the sets it can run. People made a similar mistake with mega lati, and no i'm not comparing them in any way other than the issue of huge stats.
edit: a lot of the mods/top players are active in UU chat which is dope because theyre up to date and informed, thanks for that
Just got my reqs, so I figure I'll leave behind a quick post about where my thoughts, there have been good arguments above that I'm mostly going to parrot as I don't have too many unique things to say.
Breloom is a definite no ban for me, Serperior's dominance has led to an abundance of Grass-type checks flourishing in the meta, and I don't feel like it's been too dominant of a force in my experience on the ladder. It has a lot of neat niche sets like the Poison Heal Facade and Sub Punch, but those all lose out on the common utility / splashability of the SD Mach Bullet Spore / Tomb set, and can somewhat safely be checked by mons that handle the main set as well (Mega Altaria, Crobat, etc.) Natural Gift sets have been what I've had the most success with, probably with Ganlon Berry as i'll get to in my next tidbit.
No reason to run Lansat anymore, because Buzzwole needs to be banned. Will be extremely overcentralizing, it can lure practically every common check thanks to its fantastic coverage (giving it like four viable Z move options, along with stuff like Sub Punch). In addition to having this fantastic coverage and power, it also serves as one of the best blanket checks to physical attackers in the tier, even eating hits like Sky Plate Crobat Brave Bird after a Bulk Up. Finally, it's physically defensive Taunt set is very potent on stall, along with the ones I didn't mention like SpD Bulk Up, even AV for crying out loud. It does too much, it has ways around its checks that don't compromise its matchup with the regular meta as much as Breloom does, probably the most important point I have to make. So yeah, needs to go imho.
I guess I will start this off with the most controversial Pokémon of the two. I played a lot on the suspect test ladder and it really isn't broken to my eyes. Back when it just dropped to UU by usage, it really was broken and I was happy it got banned. Back then we didn't have Mega Altaria, Mega Manectric, Mega Houndoom and all the strong Special attackers that overwhelm Buzzwole. Not only that, Crobat remains one of Buzzwole's biggest enemies, with the ability to bypass its Substitute and hit it x4 times effectively while quad resisting its two STAB moves.
Yeah, you could say that Buzzwole's movepool is huge and it can just bop its supposed counters on the switch-in with a super effective move - there's no doubt it can do that, but, this could easily be played around, and in my opinion doesn't mean Buzzwole deserves to be banned; there's almost no reason to just mindlessly send out your supposed counter instead of smartly playing around Buzzwole.
As I said, this really is controversial and I am sure you could find an argument that invalidates mine, just like I could find an argument that invalidates yours. This is my humble opinion on this topic, after about 200 games on the suspect ladder, using many different playstyles.
If I just gave reasons why Buzzwole is not broken, I am more than likely to think that Breloom isn't broken too. Many of the points were already stated pretty nicely; many of the UU's most used Pokémon naturally check it, it has exploitable weaknesses such as low base Speed and below average bulk and more.
I actually find Spore pretty cool as it spices up the metagame a little bit and suppresses players from mindlessly throwing in their Breloom countermeasure to a Spore.
tl;dr: Free Both Buzzbuzz and Loomloom!
On a side note, I would like to share some thoughts on a team I've been spamming lately.
I don't want to release it just yet because there are some godmade secret techs in there, but this team has given me an excellent matchup against the common good teams right now and has proved its effectiveness despite its silly look.
Basically you got the regular Aurorus + Alolan Sandslash combo, but this time I focused on exploiting the lack of Special walls in the tier. The other members of the team are Nasty Plot + Flame Charge Mega Houndoom, Z-Conversion Porygon2, Calm Mind Espeon and Choice Scarf Latias.
The combination of Aurora Veil + Flame Charge Mega Houndoom, Z-Conversion Porygon2 and Choice Scarf Latias deal with Offense teams really well and Espeon deals extremely well with Stall teams really well. I would like to talk about Espeon The cool thing about Espeon is that it also prevents an opposing Defog from removing Aurora Veil on your side, thanks to Magic Bounce. Also, not only it 6-0s most Stall teams, it also has an extremely good matchup against slower Bulky Offensive teams, just as it is shown in this example: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-699116870. Opponent got a lucky critical hit on Espeon which definitely mattered (godmade EV spread) but this just shows you how deadly it can be to even Bulky Offense. Another cool replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uususpecttest-698513813.
The only thing Espeon hard loses against is boost resetters, such as Amonguss and Mantine (and Quagsire, thanks, pokeisfun) if unboosted, and Alolan Muk which isn't quite hard to wear down.
But yeah, just wanted to show you a different approach I took at teambuilding, an approach that has definitely earned my attention.
So I was pretty openly one of the big opponents of Buzzwole in its last iteration, primarily on the strength of a specially defensive set with Bulk Up. I expected this meta would be less friendly to it, however, thanks to some general metagame changes and the addition of new threats like Altaria. After playing a pretty ridiculous number of games on this ladder, though, I've got to say that I still find Buzzwole almost as stupid as I did back then.
Right now I see two sets as particularly good. The first is specially defensive Bulk Up (most commonly max SDef or close to it, with Bulk Up/Drain Punch/Ice Punch/Roost). I've been running this a lot, both with Leftovers and with a Z-Crystal, and it's kind of amazing the amount of work it puts into games. Even just with max HP it checks a huge number of physical threats, including some particularly difficult ones like Mamoswine and offensive Scizor. It's also surprisingly chunky on the special side: Hyper Voice from Sylveon does 75% max, for example, and Latias Psychic tops out at 77%. This is basically ORAS UU Conkeldurr on steroids, with a more useful defensive typing, better Speed and the addition of things like Z-Moves to bust past difficult threats, but without priority.
The second is offensive Z-move Buzzwole, which typically runs three attacks and Sub/Roost/Bulk Up last, plus a Z-move of choice (Rockium and Fightinium have been particularly popular this test). This mostly relies on Buzzwole's many free switchins to come in and slam something. This one is difficult as heck to play around if you're not carrying a Buzzwole of your own, since Buzzwole packs the coverage to break through almost all of its "counters." There are also a lot of other more niche sets: physically defensive definitely warrants a place on stall, SubPunch with Leftovers isn't my favorite but can work on the right team, and I saw one person just tearing things up in one game with a Choice Band set.
(Side note: it seems like a minor addition, since it already had Leech Life, but I don't think it can be overstated how big of a boon Drain Punch was for this thing. Being able to immediately threaten fat Steels while still running coverage for stuff like Gliscor is huge.)
In many ways, I see Buzzwole like an even more dangerous version of Latias-Mega: it's really useful defensively, and comes in on a wide portion of the tier, but also retains a ton of offensive utility and can easily set up and sweep. I was definitely getting echoes of that while I was laddering and watching games, especially one game where a Bulk Up Buzzwole managed to, in the same game, beat a Crobat, a Sylveon, and even switch into and beat a CM Reuniclus 1v1. While I personally thought Latias-Mega was not broken, Buzzwole on the other hand firmly crosses that line into broken territory. I'm voting ban on Buzzwole.
I have less to say about Breloom. It's annoying as hell: Spore is just a dumb move, and the damage variance from Technician Bullet Seed is really obnoxious. Those same factors also make it really inconsistent, and it's just a lot easier to account for in teambuilding than Buzzwole. There are definitely games where I find Breloom extremely frustrating, and times when I've lost games I thought I had won because I underestimated stuff like how hard a 5-hit LO Bullet Seed hits, but it hasn't really stood out to me as broken in a way that Buzzwole has. I do think that the people who are discounting Breloom entirely are underrating it; it's still an extremely dangerous 'mon and getting another viable Spore user will mean that teams will definitely have to start accounting for Sleep more than they currently do. I just don't think that it's really overwhelming, and I plan to vote unban on Breloom.
As a more general discussion on the suspect test itself, I think that tightening the standards moves things in the right direction, but I'm agreeing more and more with the idea that COIL in general should just be dropped. The way it accrues just takes so long, and while we could fiddle with the formula (for example with a high COIL, low B-value ladder), I don't think it really adds anything to the process.
I appreciate everyone bearing with us while we try new things with the tiering process, and definitely would like more feedback on how this went. I think the next step is to just keep it as simple as possible: minimum game count + minimum GXE as Zarel suggested, no COIL, no frills. It gives everyone a clear understanding of what's expected. If we say it's a 50 game minimum with an 80 GXE standard, for example, you know that you'll be playing 50 games, and that if you have a reasonable winrate you'll have reqs. Hopefully this will encourage players to explore the suspect meta a bit more, instead of just trying to hammer in enough winning games to qualify for reqs. We'll definitely keep refining the process until we find the right balance.
So I was pretty openly one of the big opponents of Buzzwole in its last iteration, primarily on the strength of a specially defensive set with Bulk Up. I expected this meta would be less friendly to it, however, thanks to some general metagame changes and the addition of new threats like Altaria. After playing a pretty ridiculous number of games on this ladder, though, I've got to say that I still find Buzzwole almost as stupid as I did back then.
Right now I see two sets as particularly good. The first is specially defensive Bulk Up (most commonly max SDef or close to it, with Bulk Up/Drain Punch/Ice Punch/Roost). I've been running this a lot, both with Leftovers and with a Z-Crystal, and it's kind of amazing the amount of work it puts into games. Even just with max HP it checks a huge number of physical threats, including some particularly difficult ones like Mamoswine and offensive Scizor. It's also surprisingly chunky on the special side: Hyper Voice from Sylveon does 75% max, for example, and Latias Psychic tops out at 77%. This is basically ORAS UU Conkeldurr on steroids, with a more useful defensive typing, better Speed and the addition of things like Z-Moves to bust past difficult threats, but without priority.
The second is offensive Z-move Buzzwole, which typically runs three attacks and Sub/Roost/Bulk Up last, plus a Z-move of choice (Rockium and Fightinium have been particularly popular this test). This mostly relies on Buzzwole's many free switchins to come in and slam something. This one is difficult as heck to play around if you're not carrying a Buzzwole of your own, since Buzzwole packs the coverage to break through almost all of its "counters." There are also a lot of other more niche sets: physically defensive definitely warrants a place on stall, SubPunch with Leftovers isn't my favorite but can work on the right team, and I saw one person just tearing things up in one game with a Choice Band set.
(Side note: it seems like a minor addition, since it already had Leech Life, but I don't think it can be overstated how big of a boon Drain Punch was for this thing. Being able to immediately threaten fat Steels while still running coverage for stuff like Gliscor is huge.)
In many ways, I see Buzzwole like an even more dangerous version of Latias-Mega: it's really useful defensively, and comes in on a wide portion of the tier, but also retains a ton of offensive utility and can easily set up and sweep. I was definitely getting echoes of that while I was laddering and watching games, especially one game where a Bulk Up Buzzwole managed to, in the same game, beat a Crobat, a Sylveon, and even switch into and beat a CM Reuniclus 1v1. While I personally thought Latias-Mega was not broken, Buzzwole on the other hand firmly crosses that line into broken territory. I'm voting ban on Buzzwole.
I have less to say about Breloom. It's annoying as hell: Spore is just a dumb move, and the damage variance from Technician Bullet Seed is really obnoxious. Those same factors also make it really inconsistent, and it's just a lot easier to account for in teambuilding than Buzzwole. There are definitely games where I find Breloom extremely frustrating, and times when I've lost games I thought I had won because I underestimated stuff like how hard a 5-hit LO Bullet Seed hits, but it hasn't really stood out to me as broken in a way that Buzzwole has. I do think that the people who are discounting Breloom entirely are underrating it; it's still an extremely dangerous 'mon and getting another viable Spore user will mean that teams will definitely have to start accounting for Sleep more than they currently do. I just don't think that it's really overwhelming, and I plan to vote unban on Breloom.
As a more general discussion on the suspect test itself, I think that tightening the standards moves things in the right direction, but I'm agreeing more and more with the idea that COIL in general should just be dropped. The way it accrues just takes so long, and while we could fiddle with the formula (for example with a high COIL, low B-value ladder), I don't think it really adds anything to the process.
I appreciate everyone bearing with us while we try new things with the tiering process, and definitely would like more feedback on how this went. I think the next step is to just keep it as simple as possible: minimum game count + minimum GXE as Zarel suggested, no COIL, no frills. It gives everyone a clear understanding of what's expected. If we say it's a 50 game minimum with an 80 GXE standard, for example, you know that you'll be playing 50 games, and that if you have a reasonable winrate you'll have reqs. Hopefully this will encourage players to explore the suspect meta a bit more, instead of just trying to hammer in enough winning games to qualify for reqs. We'll definitely keep refining the process until we find the right balance.
I agree with the proposed tiering process of dropping COIL altogether. Hell, I think even having only a minimum GXE requirement will be enough. But I do think that the standard should be raised a little bit, to maybe 85 GXE. Or perhaps the 20-30 people with the highest GXE who have posted in the alt ID thread.
So I don't got reqs after some poor strokes of luck but I've been encouraged to talk in the NP thread anyway. I think Breloom's usefulness was far too overhyped and overrated. Spore is a scary aspect but there are still ways to play around Breloom as a whole. And the Natural Gift lures that were hyped up for so long tend to miss the sash in a number of situations. Sash itself isn't perfect either. Mons like Amoongus and Sap Sipper Azu are pretty solid counters as said before. And even beyond that, it has a load of checks. There's also situations in which Breloom really wishes it was running something else (For example, if you're a poison Natural Gift lure to hit Azu and M-alt, you're really going to miss sash rock tomb when you hit your first bat, and vice versa.) There are some games in which Breloom simply doesn't put in its part because its carrying the wrong set. Making it a bit of a matchup lottery.
Buzzwole. Oof. This thing is a lot more scary. I liked using this mon in the suspect and I do think it has a lot of merits in the current meta. But I do also agree that it could be centralizing. careful predictions can make Buzzwole look a bit terrifying. And it also has a lot more good matchups than bad. I would say there are a few good counters like Mega Altaria, Chandelure, and Crobat, but even these sets have to be very careful of lures. Z-lures especially can KO counters that could live at least one SE attack on normal occasions. Another thing that's just really dumb about Buzzwole is how bulky it is. Even 2x super effective hits don't chunk it as they should. I used a max/max phys def Buzzwole on one of my ladder teams and Metagross doesn't even KO it in two with STAB Zen Headbutt. It can even comfortably eat two Shark Psychic Fangs after rocks. That's just way too much. While I originally liked the prospect of Buzzwole checking a number of mons with few defensive checks, any good it brings to the metagame would be horribly outweighed by its centralization and how it can be easily abused from an offensive standpoint.
