np: USUM UU Stage 7 - Too Good At Goodbyes (Azumarill banned, Breloom and Serperior remain UU)

[Chandell]

I said Latias is healthy because it provide offense an answer to threats, but unhealthy because of its Z move capabilities. I didn't contradict myself, I simply showed both sides of the coin, whereas Breloom has no defensive merit for the tier that it bring along with its capabilities for destroying teams. Same thing can be said for Cb Azu/Sap sipper Azu. They can hurt, and they can help. Or how Slowbro-M was suspected, but it also helped against Physical Z-Move users etc. Why are Z-moves not unhealthy? There is no reason to back that up. You could say I was being blunt or straightforward, but I never went out of my way to be rude. And I'm not just talking about Swampert, I'm simply saying solid walls have been stripped into counters. If someone want to check knock Scizor and lure Latias, they could easily run that specific variant, however rare it is. It's like running hail in gen 5 uu. Abomasnow was banned anyway even through the playstyle was rare, it was still broken. And anything can run a Z-move. So if Swampert can threaten your Latias, what else can the 30 pokemon in UU between coverage moves do to blow through any potential wall. That's the point I wanted to get across.
Edit: I've hated Latias being in the tier for quite some time. The people who liked your post know that very clearly. I believe I commented about it in one of the first posts.

 

[lhce628]

I don’t really like these examples because they have use outside of the one you’re referencing here. Without HP Ice Manectric loses the ability to pressure Dragons and while saying you can just volt on them is partly true, in practice it’s actually a lot more annoying than it would seem. Out of everything else in A and S in the VR, only Latias, Aero and Altaria I guess somewhat commonly run Ice coverage and while Gliscor is a big pull of that, theres other reasons they run it too. While the Babiri is undoubtedly a Scizor driven tech, its hardly common and Flamethrower would have viable uses in helping Toge break through Steels without praying for a load of flinches. Nat Gift Scizor is definitely specialised for opposing Scizor but it still retains some utility in dishing out a strong hit to stuff like Doublade and Aggron when boosted, meaning it at least retains some utility in other matchups. Sleep Talk is a strictly Breloom only adaptation, restricted to only being useful in matchups against a Breloom and useless otherwise. It’s also restricted to a select group of Pokemon that can adequately pressure Breloom, can switch in comfortably in standard situations, and have the moveslot to spare.

ty for clarify my pts
I truly hv bad English

now for some more replying
when ppl already get on the dissection when I am asleep

If the Sash set isnt broken, why did you even mention it?

There are more than 2 switch ins. The mons I mentioned can be a SSI switch in on a double or if you scout for Rock Tomb.

Manectric and many other mons run HP Ice for Gliscor, which could otherwise be sacrificed for HP Grass. A lot of mons run useless Fire coverage for Scizor or dedicated lures like Natural Gift on your own Scizor or Hidden Power Fire Babiri Berry Togekiss. Does this mean either of these mons are broken or unhealthy?

Mega Manectric forces people to run specific checks (a Ground type). Serperior forces people to run specific checks (at least 2 Grass resists that can beat it). Are they broken?

the sash set is mentioned because it is a set

when it comes down to doubles to effectively check a mon, that is broken

hp ice as freeroamer said is not only for gliscor, and I don't see hp grass is a very big cost to gv up, as it doesn't even OHKO pert

and for hp fire babiri togekiss, sczior actually does deserve a suspect test, this actually proved it more

in sleep talk lati case it has to gv up one of 4 moves ( defog ice beam healing wish trick) and you can't even reliably run both sleep talk + defog/healing wish/trick at the same time

for mane ppl will still run ground types if they need it, and grass resist is hence steel type are going to be common anyways
and btw serp is suspect worthy too

I think that sums it up
yes breloom is broken
I know the UUPL and UULT is up and you guys can't do this right now
but pls deal with problem after the tours cuz this is a mon that makes the tier much less fun

having a uu tour rn now come join..
https://discord.gg/WAgatQU

 

[BlueFins]

I said Latias is healthy because it provide offense an answer to threats, but unhealthy because of its Z move capabilities. I didn't contradict myself, I simply showed both sides of the coin, whereas Breloom has no defensive merit for the tier that it bring along with its capabilities for destroying teams. Same thing can be said for Cb Azu/Sap sipper Azu. They can hurt, and they can help. Or how Slowbro-M was suspected, but it also helped against Physical Z-Move users etc. Why are Z-moves not unhealthy? There is no reason to back that up. You could say I was being blunt or straightforward, but I never went out of my way to be rude. And I'm not just talking about Swampert, I'm simply saying solid walls have been stripped into counters. If someone want to check knock Scizor and lure Latias, they could easily run that specific variant, however rare it is. It's like running hail in gen 5 uu. Abomasnow was banned anyway even through the playstyle was rare, it was still broken. And anything can run a Z-move. So if Swampert can threaten your Latias, what else can the 30 pokemon in UU between coverage moves do to blow through any potential wall. That's the point I wanted to get across.
Edit: I've hated Latias being in the tier for quite some time. The people who liked your post know that very clearly. I believe I commented about it in one of the first posts.

I don't post much (literally ever) but I thought I'd chime in on this for a second, the way you're structuring your argument is heavily flawed. You're saying that Latias is healthy in every way but it can run a z move and then immediately its unhealthy for the tier. There are ample reasons to why Z moves are healthy (in my personal view the main reason is it allows more diversity in team-building allowing you to have answers to would be checks, such the design of Z thunder Lati) as others have already stated in the thread to you but didn't take it into consideration again. If you have a problem with Z moves, that is a policy issue which you should take to higher ups.

In general though, I think this argument has run its course, its beginning to derail the thread and also creating a tone in some peoples view as you complaining for the sake of complaining. As others suggested, I recommend you take a break for a bit to cool down so you can develop a well constructed argument for later if you want to approach this topic again in the future.

 

[Chandell]

Healthy defensively, unhealthy offensively. Simple to understand, kind of like Scizor in the way it keeps the tier in check in so many different ways, yet it constricts the tier in so many ways. Very simple concept. How can Volcanion, when you use up a teamslot blocking it with Blissey ang get crushed by an AOP, be healthy. It just burns away your effort of even putting Blissey on the team in the first place. Anyway, the reason for all this chatter is to come to a decison: the next series of suspects to solve any problems in the tier. And the reason it goes on is that many insist Breloom isn't broken, even though it is ridiculously good in the tier beyond a normal level. If you all truly believe Breloom isn't broken, the suspect will show. So please let us suspect it so that we can come to a decision, many players felt that the council vote didn't reflect the actual state of Breloom in the tier, and a suspect is the most solid way to prove that.

 

[lhce628]

Healthy defensively, unhealthy offensively. Simple to understand, kind of like Scizor in the way it keeps the tier in check in so many different ways, yet it constricts the tier in so many ways. Very simple concept. How can Volcanion, when you use up a teamslot blocking it with Blissey ang get crushed by an AOP, be healthy. It just burns away your effort of even putting Blissey on the team in the first place. Anyway, the reason for all this chatter is to come to a decison: the next series of suspects to solve any problems in the tier. And the reason it goes on is that many insist Breloom isn't broken, even though it is ridiculously good in the tier beyond a normal level. If you all truly believe Breloom isn't broken, the suspect will show. So please let us suspect it so that we can come to a decision, many players felt that the council vote didn't reflect the actual state of Breloom in the tier, and a suspect is the most solid way to prove that.

yea I feel that too, breloom rly needs a suspect

however, I am think if serp can be suspected together

I saw breloom and buzzwole being test together

serp and loom are both grass type wallbreakers, can they be suspected together I wonder



having a uu tour rn now come join..
https://discord.gg/WAgatQU

 

[Hogg]

UU leadership is not considering a Latias suspect at this time, nor will we consider banning Z-moves. While general discussion about the metagame is encouraged, this conversation has been thoroughly derailed. Please stay a bit more on topic, and let's steer clear of talking about a Latias ban for the time being.

 

[Rabia]

If the Sash set isnt broken, why did you even mention it?

There are more than 2 switch ins. The mons I mentioned can be a SSI switch in on a double or if you scout for Rock Tomb.

Manectric and many other mons run HP Ice for Gliscor, which could otherwise be sacrificed for HP Grass. A lot of mons run useless Fire coverage for Scizor or dedicated lures like Natural Gift on your own Scizor or Hidden Power Fire Babiri Berry Togekiss. Does this mean either of these mons are broken or unhealthy?

Mega Manectric forces people to run specific checks (a Ground type). Serperior forces people to run specific checks (at least 2 Grass resists that can beat it). Are they broken?

so I'm gonna just make a response that applies to competitive play as a whole; don't take this as an opinion on Breloom or anything UU-exclusive asfghjkl

this also references other posts of yours but you have repeated info a lot for the sake of wanting to redraw earlier points so just remember that bb

There is a stark difference in teambuilding between accounting for an explicit threat throughout the process and keeping general themes in mind which are just good building habits; in general, these themes happen to overlap with prominent threats in a metagame because while these threats are top tier, they have consistent answers that naturally arise from building.

Then you get other Pokemon which are declared more problematic than even the top threats, and while building attention must be paid to that select Pokemon. This isn't a matter of just saying "oh I need a Psychic-type because I have a weakness to Fighting-types"; rather, it is a matter of saying something like "oh I need a Breloom check because Breloom is a problematic Pokemon in the current meta and not running a dedicated check to it makes this team much harder to use".

Just some things to keep in mind - having to account for a specific Pokemon throughout teambuilding definitely speaks volumes about how good it is. This isn't to say that Pokemon is broken; you can have a really dominating force that still has answers. What it really comes down to I feel are a couple things: 1) what are these answers? and 2) are the answers I am running being forced to run niche sets to deal with this specific Pokemon that would otherwise be useless? Some people will call this adapting to the meta and others will call it an issue of overcentralizing; it's honestly a fair argument either way imho.

if you want an example of the first point dusclops hard-walling buzzwole pre-buzzwole ban round 1 does not mean buzzwole should have stayed lol

Anyhow, yeah, these are some ideas I feel are somewhat relevant to this topic.

 

[Cookees]

As far as counters go, Chesnaught is arguably the best switch-in to Breloom. Been playing around a little bit, and not a single Breloom has gotten past my Chesnaught yet. It's immune to Spore and Bullet Seed, and has excellent defenses. Using Rocky Helmet, you can also easily wear it down whenever it throws off an attack.

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 61-73 (16 - 19.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 31-36 (8.1 - 9.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever

252 Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 96-113 (25.3 - 29.8%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Raidx]

Saying Z-Moves are broken because they allow Pokemon to beat their checks would mean that Choice items are also broken (lol) since they do the same thing. For example CB Terrak can 2hko Alo w CC w rocks up, even though normally Alo wins 1v1. By that logic this would mean Choice Band/Terrak would need to be banned because it can punch through it's would-be checks/counters. Mons beating checks =/= broken. Z-Moves are hard to prep for due to the variety and versatilty i'lll admit, but they aren't a "click this button and win" type of deal. In Latias's case if you switch Empoleon into it expecting Draco/Psychic move only to get blasted by Z-Thunder, then you'll have to deal w it. Lati is not broken nor is it unbeatable. It is a fantastic mon yes, but nothing beyond that. Simply put, Z-Moves drastically changed the meta and if you just complain about it instead of adapting then you'll just keep stressing yourself.

Now about Breloom. I haven't played as much as most others in here, but i have a fair share of UU ladder experience, watched hella replays and i'm always reading the forums, so I'd like to believe i'm justified in any opinions I give. Personally I'm on the fence when it comes to loom. The amount of power it packs + it's utility in Spore is nearly unmatched. Mons like Crobat and Togekiss can't reliably switch in due to Tech Rock Tomb, while mons like M-Altaria and Latias risk becoming Spore fodder. Not to mention loom + a pursuit mon (A-Muk, M-Aero) form a great core supporting loom, allowing it to thrash teams once things like Lati and Celebi are trapped and removed. On the other hand, it's frail af and it relies heavily on Mach Punch against offensive squads. It's matchup vs offense ain't bad at all imo, but it needs to be at +2 to actually ohko things like Infernape and M-Aero instead of just rking weakened mons + the fact that it's frail means it doesn't get many setup opportunities against offense. Could elaborate more ofc but loom has essentially been covered fully in this thread by now.

All this is prob common meta knowledge by now, so if so sorry for the novel of a post, but yeah when it comes to loom i'm too indecisive to give a final opinion on it. Serp is perfectly fine however. Way too many checks for it to be broken.

 

[sims796]

As far as counters go, Chesnaught is arguably the best switch-in to Breloom. Been playing around a little bit, and not a single Breloom has gotten past my Chesnaught yet. It's immune to Spore and Bullet Seed, and has excellent defenses. Using Rocky Helmet, you can also easily wear it down whenever it throws off an attack.

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 61-73 (16 - 19.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 31-36 (8.1 - 9.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever

252 Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 96-113 (25.3 - 29.8%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hasn't it been that way since they were OU last gen?

 

[justdrew]

There is a lot of controversy over Breloom and whether it should be in the tier. I'm going to settle this by briefly refreshing everyone on how Breloom came to be. Most Pokemon are resuspected because of new changes to the meta and VR, etc. Breloom was resuspected alongside Buzzwole which in my opinion diluted the suspect test. Buzzwole was used as a check to Breloom which made people think, well hey this mon isn't broken. Breloom was unbanned and opinions were still mixed due to the easy reqs of the suspect. So then people were suspicious of Breloom so the council decided to vote, and they kept Breloom unbanned. Then Amoongus was banned and this was the final straw to Breloom haters everywhere. The fact that people had to go out of their way and use Pokemon like Vileplume and Tangela to counter Breloom was insane. The council voted 6-3 to keep Breloom in the tier. I keep hearing people say, "well if 2 votes changed then it would have been banned". Well 2 votes didn't change, and it wasn't banned, so that argument does nothing. If we can't trust a council made up of 9 of the most experienced and talented UU players then how can we trust ourselves to suspect Breloom again?

I have two ideas on how to make the Breloom decision final:

A) We can hold another suspect and make the reqs harder than the first Breloom suspect, and this time suspect it alone. But then there is the fact that getting reqs requires effort which some players are unwilling or unable to put in. And a small amount of voters will anger the large majority of the community.

B) Instead of having the small council of 9 people vote for Breloom, and instead of having an official community wide suspect test, we can have the council and other experienced UU players vote. By this I mean allow ULT players, UUPL players, and other well known, vetted, and accomplished UU players not on council vote, thus eliminating the need for a long and controversial suspect test.

I have heard rumors of the possible rise of Gliscor in the upcoming tier shift which in my opinion will make Breloom 100% deserving of a ban. I think it's time for decisive and efficient action because the meta desperately needs to stabilize before the comencement of Open and Grand Slam.

 

[sanguine]

Buzzwole was used as a check to Breloom which made people think, well hey this mon isn't broken. Breloom was unbanned and opinions were still mixed due to the easy reqs of the suspect.

I don’t think a vote where less than 30 people participated in would have easy requirements. Another issue with this point is that what little Breloom discussion took place under the radar of most due to the Buzzwole debate, was entirely centered around Technician and Natural Gift sets, and Poison Heal’s full potential hadn’t even become close to being realized.

The council voted 6-3 to keep Breloom in the tier. I keep hearing people say, "well if 2 votes changed then it would have been banned". Well 2 votes didn't change, and it wasn't banned, so that argument does nothing. If we can't trust a council made up of 9 of the most experienced and talented UU players then how can we trust ourselves to suspect Breloom again?

This is an “Appeal to Authority” fallacy, and just because those two votes didn’t change during that initial vote, doesn’t mean they can’t change in the future, which renders this point moot. Thirdly, implying that the UU community somehow can’t be trusted with a vote is more condescending than anything else, and doesn’t do anything to further a line of thought other than “the council is right, no point in protesting” in a sort of Kafka-esque, roundabout way to shut down actual, real gripes people have with the current metagame.

A) We can hold another suspect and make the reqs harder than the first Breloom suspect, and this time suspect it alone. But then there is the fact that getting reqs requires effort which some players are unwilling or unable to put in. And a small amount of voters will anger the large majority of the community.

Okay. One, the reqs were arguably too difficult considering the low turnout. Two, even if the reqs for whatever reason we’re made harder, acting like players won’t “put in effort” as you say is simply untrue, and isn’t really a provable statement.

B) Instead of having the small council of 9 people vote for Breloom, and instead of having an official community wide suspect test, we can have the council and other experienced UU players vote. By this I mean allow ULT players, UUPL players, and other well known, vetted, and accomplished UU players not on council vote, thus eliminating the need for a long and controversial suspect test.

Okay, once again, if you have an issue with people getting angry over small groups voting, this is the perfect scenario for that to happen. Breloom obviously is a controversial topic, and leaving it up to just a select few instead of letting those who want and are willing to get reqs is completely unnecessary. You say “long and controversial” like only having some vote and others not won’t be controversial and spark long, overdrawn textwalls about the voting system of Smogon suspect testing itself.

I have heard rumors of the possible rise of Gliscor in the upcoming tier shift which in my opinion will make Breloom 100% deserving of a ban. I think it's time for decisive and efficient action because the meta desperately needs to stabilize before the comencement of Open and Grand Slam.

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

There is a lot of controversy over Breloom and whether it should be in the tier. I'm going to settle this by briefly refreshing everyone on how Breloom came to be. Most Pokemon are resuspected because of new changes to the meta and VR, etc. Breloom was resuspected alongside Buzzwole which in my opinion diluted the suspect test. Buzzwole was used as a check to Breloom which made people think, well hey this mon isn't broken. Breloom was unbanned and opinions were still mixed due to the easy reqs of the suspect. So then people were suspicious of Breloom so the council decided to vote, and they kept Breloom unbanned. Then Amoongus was banned and this was the final straw to Breloom haters everywhere. The fact that people had to go out of their way and use Pokemon like Vileplume and Tangela to counter Breloom was insane. The council voted 6-3 to keep Breloom in the tier. I keep hearing people say, "well if 2 votes changed then it would have been banned". Well 2 votes didn't change, and it wasn't banned, so that argument does nothing. If we can't trust a council made up of 9 of the most experienced and talented UU players then how can we trust ourselves to suspect Breloom again?

I have two ideas on how to make the Breloom decision final:

A) We can hold another suspect and make the reqs harder than the first Breloom suspect, and this time suspect it alone. But then there is the fact that getting reqs requires effort which some players are unwilling or unable to put in. And a small amount of voters will anger the large majority of the community.

B) Instead of having the small council of 9 people vote for Breloom, and instead of having an official community wide suspect test, we can have the council and other experienced UU players vote. By this I mean allow ULT players, UUPL players, and other well known, vetted, and accomplished UU players not on council vote, thus eliminating the need for a long and controversial suspect test.

I have heard rumors of the possible rise of Gliscor in the upcoming tier shift which in my opinion will make Breloom 100% deserving of a ban. I think it's time for decisive and efficient action because the meta desperately needs to stabilize before the comencement of Open and Grand Slam.

Using lesser used Pokémon to counter something isn't insane. Usage =/= How good a Pokémon is. It's happened before

 

[Nightingales]

Using lesser used Pokémon to counter something isn't insane. Usage =/= How good a Pokémon is. It's happened before

There's that, then there's using stupidly niche things for no reason BUT to counter Breloom (read: vileplume)

 

[Jade]

There's that, then there's using stupidly niche things for no reason BUT to counter Breloom (read: vileplume)

It seems to be a common misconception that Vileplume was introduced JUST for Azumarill and Breloom. Its main niche is actually checking things like Mega Altaria, though checking Breloom is nice as well.

You also have to remember that Vileplume was viable prior to Amoonguss leaving. Amoonguss leaving just increased its usage.

 

[Nightingales]

It seems to be a common misconception that Vileplume was introduced JUST for Azumarill and Breloom. Its main niche is actually checking things like Mega Altaria, though checking Breloom is nice as well.

A better example would be that chesnaught post up there, if you wanna split hairs. I've also seen Golbat, and Vileplume is still on that list. Point still stands - there's a difference between using something lesser used to deal with a threat, and then there's a horrid choice for dealing with the rest of the meta, effectively leaving you dead weight unless you're dealing with a single Pokémon, in this case Breloom.

Unless people wanna do a case study on how good Chesnaught is.

 

[robofiend]

A better example would be that chesnaught post up there, if you wanna split hairs. I've also seen Golbat, and Vileplume is still on that list. Point still stands - there's a difference between using something lesser used to deal with a threat, and then there's a horrid choice for dealing with the rest of the meta, effectively leaving you dead weight unless you're dealing with a single Pokémon, in this case Breloom.

Unless people wanna do a case study on how good Chesnaught is.

I've been trying to use Chesnaught, it's not particularly good, but it does exist. It does serve a purpose against the frail Breloom and Crawdaunt, whose attacks can't break it even after a boost and can be brought down with Drain Punch or by stalling out LO... but against anything else it's pretty much dead weight.

Access to Spikes is cool on paper, but Defoggers are plentiful and lots of top tier threats carry SE moves on Chesnaught, giving it limited chances to set up. Other walls like Gliscor and Aggron don't fear Aerodactyl, Altaria, Offensive Gliscor, etc. as much as Chesnaught does, mostly because it can't stop them from setting up outside of trying to tank a bit hit and Roar them out. Offensively it's just not able to stop any M-Alt set, SD Scizor, M-Aero, or SD Gliscor. That's a lot of ground for other teammates to hold when you've already got one defensive and relatively passive pokemon. Maybe it's just meant for stall teams.

Last, the opportunity cost of running Chesnaught is high. It's another mon that's weak to Fire, Psychic, Poison, Flying, Fairy and Ice, meaning that many pokemon near the top of the meta carry moves that break it. Latias, M-Alt, Serperior, Aero, and the now popular Moltres come in on its weak Drain Punch can threaten it out. It has the same typing as Breloom but nowhere near the usability, being slow, weak, and predictable. Spikes are more threatening on Klefki, who can guarantee setup, Defog, or run status to ruin offensive switch ins against it, while still boasting unique typing to block Latias & Altaria.

It's not the best at anything, except for checking Craw/Breloom. That's definitely a niche, but not a very big or good one. I'd say it's more on the side of being "horrid choice for dealing with the rest of the meta, effectively leaving you dead weight unless you're dealing with a single Pokémon, in this case Breloom."

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

There's that, then there's using stupidly niche things for no reason BUT to counter Breloom (read: vileplume)

Strength Sap is a valuable niche on Vileplume

 

[Chandell]

"Vileplume was viable prior to Amoonguss leaving. " Of course you can put a lickilicky on your team, but why not blissey instead? This is the extent to which Amoonguss outclassed Vileplume. I didn't hear a wink about Vileplume when Amoonguss was here. Amoonguss having regenerator, spore, foul play, and better bulk overall is just too much for vileplume. Strength Sap is interesting, but it wont do you any good against many pokemon, such as Scizor if you lack hp fire, Gliscor with SD etc. Lets not forget the fact that Plume lacks clear smog, making it set up bait for a variety of attackers. Overall, Vileplume was absolutely outclassed by Amoonguss. Amoonguss did everything Vileplume did, better. The more I face breloom, the more annoying it becomes to account for in teambuilding. So many checks are beaton by LO+3 attacks, meaning that if you want to beat Breloom, you have to run a grass type or Kommo with overcoat. This is looking pretty funny, since Manectric already forces you to run a ground type, making the meta even more stale. Latias forces you to run a steel or fairy type as well. Which means you basically have 3 free team slots, but then you need a revenge killer as well since the meta is very offensively biased. This is why the most viable teams look nearly alike. Scizor, Hydreigon, Gliscor, Dragon Check, X, X. I hope that the meta loosens up a little, so Breloom leaving could be a helpful first step.

 

[Rabia]

"Vileplume was viable prior to Amoonguss leaving. " Of course you can put a lickilicky on your team, but why not blissey instead? This is the extent to which Amoonguss outclassed Vileplume. I didn't hear a wink about Vileplume when Amoonguss was here. Amoonguss having regenerator, spore, foul play, and better bulk overall is just too much for vileplume. Strength Sap is interesting, but it wont do you any good against many pokemon, such as Scizor if you lack hp fire, Gliscor with SD etc. Lets not forget the fact that Plume lacks clear smog, making it set up bait for a variety of attackers. Overall, Vileplume was absolutely outclassed by Amoonguss. Amoonguss did everything Vileplume did, better. The more I face breloom, the more annoying it becomes to account for in teambuilding. So many checks are beaton by LO+3 attacks, meaning that if you want to beat Breloom, you have to run a grass type or Kommo with overcoat. This is looking pretty funny, since Manectric already forces you to run a ground type, making the meta even more stale. Latias forces you to run a steel or fairy type as well. Which means you basically have 3 free team slots, but then you need a revenge killer as well since the meta is very offensively biased. This is why the most viable teams look nearly alike. Scizor, Hydreigon, Gliscor, Dragon Check, X, X. I hope that the meta loosens up a little, so Breloom leaving could be a helpful first step.

Some of your points are really common themes in general teambuilding - not things we have to run because of meta trends. Revenge killers are wanted to well, revenge kill. Ground-types to block Volt Switch. I won’t deny what you’re saying about ‘plume though; it only gets run because of how good Amoonguss was and how it can sort of mimic Amoonguss’s role.

 

[robofiend]

"Vileplume was viable prior to Amoonguss leaving. " Of course you can put a lickilicky on your team, but why not blissey instead? This is the extent to which Amoonguss outclassed Vileplume. I didn't hear a wink about Vileplume when Amoonguss was here. Amoonguss having regenerator, spore, foul play, and better bulk overall is just too much for vileplume. Strength Sap is interesting, but it wont do you any good against many pokemon, such as Scizor if you lack hp fire, Gliscor with SD etc. Lets not forget the fact that Plume lacks clear smog, making it set up bait for a variety of attackers. Overall, Vileplume was absolutely outclassed by Amoonguss. Amoonguss did everything Vileplume did, better. The more I face breloom, the more annoying it becomes to account for in teambuilding. So many checks are beaton by LO+3 attacks, meaning that if you want to beat Breloom, you have to run a grass type or Kommo with overcoat. This is looking pretty funny, since Manectric already forces you to run a ground type, making the meta even more stale. Latias forces you to run a steel or fairy type as well. Which means you basically have 3 free team slots, but then you need a revenge killer as well since the meta is very offensively biased. This is why the most viable teams look nearly alike. Scizor, Hydreigon, Gliscor, Dragon Check, X, X. I hope that the meta loosens up a little, so Breloom leaving could be a helpful first step.

Fully agree with this, Breloom needs some very specific checks to its one real set (SD Technician with either Z or LO) and even things like Chesnaught can get beat by SD Loom with a Z move (this has actually happened to me, btw). Same with Plume, Latias, Crobat, M-Alt, whatever, they all get nuked hard by Z-Double-Edge.

+2 252+ Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 284-335 (74.9 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 363-428 (102.5 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 249-293 (82.4 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 209-246 (71.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Imo this shit's mad broken, because it's way different than Scizor or Crawdaunt - mostly in its lack of real counters or checks.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Is Breloom broken or suspect worthy? I don't really have a strong opinion.

Is Vileplume totally niche and "unviable" (hard to define but basically we can have a working definition of it by saying "X is unviable if it gets no attention/usage/analysis/discussion") outside of Breloom? I find this contention much harder to support.

Here's two replays of Vileplumes I faced on the ladder (these are the only two I have and I wasn't really actively saving replays).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-744596261

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-744600452

I am NOT using Breloom obviously, so we can assess the claim that Vileplume is largely unviable outside of Breloom by seeing how well it does in these games. If it puts in work, then it should provide some evidence that Vileplume is useful outside of Breloom.

Well I have no problem admitting I played pretty poorly with Suicune in the first game, my opponent was very weak to it and it should probaly have gotten another KO. Specifically on turn 12 I should not have Calm Minded again and should have just Scalded. And my opponent baiting Rotom-C on turn 16 with Choice Band Swampert means Vileplume shouldn't have been very useful, since one of it's main uses vs my team is to beat Rotom-C. However, it does start to put in essential work starting on turn 31 with Sleep Powder and Sap Sipper over the next few turns, badly crippling my team and standing in the way of a Hydreigon sweep. Ultimately it wasn't the star, Choice Band Swampert and Hydreigon obviously put in more work for my opponent. But it was far from useless and much better than some of the posts here characterize it as.

In the second game, I would assess Vileplume as even more useful to my opponent. Although it gets a bad start and starts off on lower health, on turn 13 it manages to heal itself and later badly cripple Scizor with HP Fire and Effect Spore. It then stops Suicune from sweeping with an admittedly fairly lucky Poison but eve using Giga Drain would have posed some problems there because Suicune was on low health. It eventually dies to a Fire Blast but that lets Hippowdon get back into the game with Slack Off, since I had to lock myself into Fire Blast to kill it.

These two games show Vileplume is useful in a variety of ways. It can annoy stuff with hax and status through Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb and Effect Spore. Strength Sap gives it a fairly long life combined with average bulk and decent typing. And most importantly, it has just enough good matchups with certain UU threats to be at least viable in the metagame, Breloom or not.

 

[vivalospride]

I didn't hear a wink about Vileplume when Amoonguss was here.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...viability-ranking.3620980/page-3#post-7634754

 

[sims796]

You mean Strength Sap, right pokeisfun? Threw me off for a sec.

Incidentally, I don't understand the Vileplume hate. Ignoring the fact that it's my favorite and that I have an obvious bias, how is it niche if it performs a valuable role and can support the team?

I get it, Amoongus outclassed Vileplume in every relevant way. Vile had strengths over the shroom, but ultimately you need defense, and Amoongus had Plume beat. But I learned off this very site that "outclassed" doesn't equal "unviable" in the least. Plume is still defensively powerful. Not at much as Gus, sure. Get over it. It Gus is gone, and this little flower seems to be putting in work.

Also, I never really see Aromatherapy used. Why? Better things for the job? 4mss?

 

[Moutemoute]

sims796, it depends of what you need in your team. If you need a Cleric, then Aromatherapy is fine. Otherwise, Sleep Powder or Hidden Power [Fire] are the most common filler. Worry Seed or Gastro Acid are also decent and can be useful vs some specific threats (like Gliscor).

Vileplume @ Leftovers / Poisonium Z
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder / Hidden Power [Fire] / Worry Seed / Aromatherapy