I know they need to exist, i didn't say there shouldn't/wouldn't be BL lists (and i actually said there should in a previous post (BL1, BL2, BL3)) i said that the tier wouldn't be a ban list but a whole tier, with a clear cut-off and it's own ban list, and the pokes banned from NU would be able to be used in there, jut like the pokes in BL are OU by default since it's the only tier in where they can be used
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NU and Beyond
- Thread starter Princess Bubblegum
- Start date
And what do you call THAT?
Ubers...
A pokemon that's banned from NU goes into Ubers...?
No, its goes to the NU ban list. So what logistically needs to be done to set up NU?
Sprocket
P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
First lemee just say that I'm only theorymoning here. I'm not an expert on the tiers below OU.
Before we talk about splitting NU into separate tiers, we should recall the purpose of tiers in the first place.
Yes, that would be splitting NU into two tiers. That's pretty much what people want isn't it? Either that or a NU ban list. Or both? I'm not sure a NU banlist would be necessary if a RU tier existed.
One way or another, we're ending up with a gigantic NU list. Gen 5 added 156 Pokemon (82? that are fully evolved). Even with Reshiram and Zekrom auto-banned to Ubers, and Victini and Kyurem possibly banned to BL, and that still increases the total number of Pokemon by 152 (78).
Assuming 53 is "roughly" the cutoff (I'm just guesstimating here), we're looking at approximately these Pokemon in the tiers under my proposal, with last month's statistics:
Uber: 19, plus OU and below
OU: 53 (Ferrothorn to Tornadus), plus BL and below
BL: If Victini and Kyurem aren't moved to OU they'll most likely be BL. Gen 4 ended with 11 in BL, Gen 5 will probably be about the same.
UU: 53 (Espeon to Xatu). Notables have been extensively covered by others, but include Chansey, Togekiss, Slowbro, Azelf, Kingdra, Celebi, Milotic, Suicune, Mew, Snorlax, Smeargle, Victini, Cresselia, Kyurem, Shaymin.
RU: 53, Ludicolo to Golduck in usage. Notables include Yanmega, Porygon-Z, Rotom-H, Deoxys-D, Shuckle, Uxie, Wobbuffet, Scyther, Slowking.
NU: Everything else. Includes Cobalion and Rotom-C. Total number would be roughly 471 or so, including NFEs.
If Pokemon too powerful for NU needed to be banned, I suppose a true NU banlist would work. Either that or automatically designate them RU.
We could, in theory, institute a ban list for RU and NU, but what would you call them? BL1, BL2, BL3? I'd be willing to bet that the nuisance/broken Pokemon for NU would all end up in RU anyway from a usage perspective, and would negate the need for lower tier banlists. UU's ban list covers the vast majority of problem Pokemon anyhow for the lower tiers. I'm generally in favor of as few ban lists as necessary; Uber and UU's BL should be more than sufficient, no?
Before we talk about splitting NU into separate tiers, we should recall the purpose of tiers in the first place.
The purpose of the RarelyUsed tier, under my proposal, would be summarized as:
Basically, Pokemon that aren't strong enough to make the UU list (based on usage), but are also used far more than NU.
Yes, that would be splitting NU into two tiers. That's pretty much what people want isn't it? Either that or a NU ban list. Or both? I'm not sure a NU banlist would be necessary if a RU tier existed.
One way or another, we're ending up with a gigantic NU list. Gen 5 added 156 Pokemon (82? that are fully evolved). Even with Reshiram and Zekrom auto-banned to Ubers, and Victini and Kyurem possibly banned to BL, and that still increases the total number of Pokemon by 152 (78).
Assuming 53 is "roughly" the cutoff (I'm just guesstimating here), we're looking at approximately these Pokemon in the tiers under my proposal, with last month's statistics:
Uber: 19, plus OU and below
OU: 53 (Ferrothorn to Tornadus), plus BL and below
BL: If Victini and Kyurem aren't moved to OU they'll most likely be BL. Gen 4 ended with 11 in BL, Gen 5 will probably be about the same.
UU: 53 (Espeon to Xatu). Notables have been extensively covered by others, but include Chansey, Togekiss, Slowbro, Azelf, Kingdra, Celebi, Milotic, Suicune, Mew, Snorlax, Smeargle, Victini, Cresselia, Kyurem, Shaymin.
RU: 53, Ludicolo to Golduck in usage. Notables include Yanmega, Porygon-Z, Rotom-H, Deoxys-D, Shuckle, Uxie, Wobbuffet, Scyther, Slowking.
NU: Everything else. Includes Cobalion and Rotom-C. Total number would be roughly 471 or so, including NFEs.
If Pokemon too powerful for NU needed to be banned, I suppose a true NU banlist would work. Either that or automatically designate them RU.
We could, in theory, institute a ban list for RU and NU, but what would you call them? BL1, BL2, BL3? I'd be willing to bet that the nuisance/broken Pokemon for NU would all end up in RU anyway from a usage perspective, and would negate the need for lower tier banlists. UU's ban list covers the vast majority of problem Pokemon anyhow for the lower tiers. I'm generally in favor of as few ban lists as necessary; Uber and UU's BL should be more than sufficient, no?
Then lets go play it then, right?
To explain better
Ubers (tecnicaly a ban list for OU, every poke is usable)
OU (every non-uber poke is usable)
BL (Banned from UU, but usable in OU)
UU (pokes with less than a 3.4% of usage are usable)
BL2 (Banned from RU, usable in UU and OU)
RU (pokes with less than x% of usage in UU are usable)
BL3 (Banned from NU, usable in RU, UU and OU)
NU (pokes with less than y% of usage in RU are usable)
So you can see, there would be a ban list in every tier, every tier would be official and all of them should have suspects
Ubers (tecnicaly a ban list for OU, every poke is usable)
OU (every non-uber poke is usable)
BL (Banned from UU, but usable in OU)
UU (pokes with less than a 3.4% of usage are usable)
BL2 (Banned from RU, usable in UU and OU)
RU (pokes with less than x% of usage in UU are usable)
BL3 (Banned from NU, usable in RU, UU and OU)
NU (pokes with less than y% of usage in RU are usable)
So you can see, there would be a ban list in every tier, every tier would be official and all of them should have suspects
Sprocket
P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
Pretty much how I pictured it. Thanks for the summary. And minor nitpick, Uber is a OU banlist, not UU.
I forgot. How was it determined in Gen 4 which Pokemon were UU, and which were NU?
I was nothing how Uber is a tier and banlist, which is totally off from policy, but thats a latter discussion.
You need the ban lists, even though they might seem a bit redundant, with out it you can't determine the diference between pokemon simply banned from OU, and those use a lot in OU. A big diference, as umbreon was not broken in UU, but ended up as OU.
You need the ban lists, even though they might seem a bit redundant, with out it you can't determine the diference between pokemon simply banned from OU, and those use a lot in OU. A big diference, as umbreon was not broken in UU, but ended up as OU.
NU banlist -> n00bers
Sprocket
P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
The Smogon website itself says Uber is an OU banlist and a tier.
http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/intro_comp_pokemon
http://www.smogon.com/articles/tiersThe Smogon Website said:
The Smogon Website said:
You are not the first to suggest RU, and you certainly won't be the last. I am very hopeful that it will come into existence, hopefully not too long from now.
That's kinda what I want to see, though I do have 2 issues with it.Gerard said:
1) I highly doubt that NU would end up with a ban list. Even with RU, it will just be too big to develop a stable metagame, and I think it will be hard to form a ban list, and even harder to convince people to make it an officially regulated tier.
2) I don't think we would want to name the ban lists BL1 and BL2. I feel it would make more sense to just rename them something like to UU Banlist and RU Banlist (or UUB and RUB for short).
About the bit in bold, why would NU be "too big"? Sure, it will have like 400 Pokemon in it, but realistically, maybe only 50 Pokemon will be competitively viable in it, just like most of the other tiers.
OU has over 600 playable Pokemon in it, but it's not "too big", because like 500 of the Pokemon are almost useless. A similar thing would happen with NU, most likely.
The rest of your points make sense though. It's true, there might not be enough interest in NU (or usage tier #4) for suspect testing to take place, although we can't know that for sure. But when it gets to that point, it's a good sign that Smogon can stop creating usage tiers.
Sprocket
P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
Fair enough, I saw the threads in Policy Review this morning. It actually relieves me that people have been thinking about it for awhile.
Pretty much the problem right there. And it'll only get worse every generation too. So any solution we come up with should be flexible enough for future generations.
Maybe we should concede that while OU, UU, and possibly RU are balanced, NU will never be balanced.
Makes sense to me.
Well, not neccessarily, NU, just the bottom usage tier. There'll surely come a point where there's simply not large enough a player-base in a metagame for testing to happen. It could happen in "RU" (or whatever they decide to call it). It could happen in a tier below "NU".
If there's hundreds of people playing "NU" (the 4th usage tier), then I'm sure they'd do testing for it.
"Too big" was probably a bad way to describe it.
In OU it is true that there are over 600 playable Pokemon, but most of them are useless. The difference that NU has is that it is the lowest tier. Because of that, many People will play it because they can use any of the hundreds of Pokemon in it without having to compete against better Pokemon. Much of the usage of Pokemon in NU will be based on personal favorites rather than competitive viability. I feel that will always happen with the lowest tier, no matter how many other tiers we make, unless we make so many that even the lowest tier is a similar size to the others.
The only reason Smogon didn't sort out NU in Gen 4 was because the suspect test process back then took WAY too long. Once UU stabilised, they planned to start NU testing, but then Gen 5 was announced.
Even in Gen 4, NU would have probobly been split.
However, by the definition of the name, NU would have to be the last teir.
Ge 5 'NU' would inevitably have to be split. There would probobly be 200+ viable pokemon, counting viable NFE's with Evolite [If it dosen't get banned to stop 'NU' being OU/UU - Lite, which is perfectly possible, as it would defy the purpose of the metagame...]
That said, by the definitions of the name, there should be an AU [Average Used] between OU [OVER used] and UU [UNDER Used]. What on earth is Normal Useage?
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Also, In Gen 4, NU had a clear split in useage, in the community that formed for it. There was about 40 NU's used the majority of the time. More than enough for another teir below it.
As long as stable, Viable metagames that are not simply -Lite Versions of previous Metagames exist, then teirs should exist for them. When we get to the point where most, if not all, of the Fully Evolved mons are teired, then there's stuff like Middle Cup, and, of course, Little Cup.
Even in Gen 4, NU would have probobly been split.
However, by the definition of the name, NU would have to be the last teir.
Ge 5 'NU' would inevitably have to be split. There would probobly be 200+ viable pokemon, counting viable NFE's with Evolite [If it dosen't get banned to stop 'NU' being OU/UU - Lite, which is perfectly possible, as it would defy the purpose of the metagame...]
That said, by the definitions of the name, there should be an AU [Average Used] between OU [OVER used] and UU [UNDER Used]. What on earth is Normal Useage?
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Also, In Gen 4, NU had a clear split in useage, in the community that formed for it. There was about 40 NU's used the majority of the time. More than enough for another teir below it.
As long as stable, Viable metagames that are not simply -Lite Versions of previous Metagames exist, then teirs should exist for them. When we get to the point where most, if not all, of the Fully Evolved mons are teired, then there's stuff like Middle Cup, and, of course, Little Cup.
Sprocket
P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
NFEs with Eviolite are perfectly viable Pokemon. Not to mention they are forced to use Eviolite instead of other items such as Leftovers, Life Orb, and Choice items.
And besides, as long as Eviolite is allowed in Little Cup, there's going to be strong resistance to banning Eviolite in NU.
That would require changing UU to AU.Raikaria said:
My example was just to clarify the "stair" of tiers, obviously it's not gonna be called BL1, BL2, maybe even RU will have a different name, but it was to clarify to those who were asking about the banned pokes in the below tiers
PS: how would a NFE tier would work, probably chansey would be banned but other than that i think many NFE pokes should have a tier where to shyne, even if they are not THAT viable with eviolite in OU/UU
PS: how would a NFE tier would work, probably chansey would be banned but other than that i think many NFE pokes should have a tier where to shyne, even if they are not THAT viable with eviolite in OU/UU
NFE tier has existed for like, 3 years. I saw it in the tier-listing once here, but what made it popular was a Youtube battler named XENON3120. He's pretty much famous on Youtube for battling epicly with UU's/NFE's against OU Pokémon.
I had an NFE battle with him back in 2009, Murkrow raped in that tier back then.
It used to have the tier listed in the Strategy Pokédex, I meant. Many of the Pokémon didn't have analyses though.
Sprocket
P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
Most NFEs still do. If they aren't listed in the Strategy Pokedex as a NU or higher tier, they are listed as an NFE. For example, Dratini is listed as an NFE, while Dragonair is listed as a NU.