NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)

[Unholy Confessions]

Vileplume. Is. 4x. Resistant. To. Grass (and it has Sleep Powder). Meganium is the counter to this defensive core, the problem being that Regirock can kill counter it if it runs Impish then uses Explode.

There's no "condescension" in these posts, it's more-or-less people being so hopeful this will be good when it's going to be OU #2 (pre-Mence ban OU was the worst thing ever, now it appears to still suck).

 

[Raikaria]

Meganium is NOT a counter to Vileplume.

Vileplume has STAB, Super Effective Sludge Bomb.

Anyway, I'm not a stall player, but I'm still winning more than I'm losing. I might try a bulky offense team with RegiKingPlume. That's more my sort of thing, after all, and you can easily run Set-Up Regirock and Slowking. [Curse and Calm Mind] Especially with Paralysis support.

As for my Vileplume set on my Stall Team?

Vileplume @ Leftovers
Calm Nature
252 HP, 252 Sp.Def, 4 Sp.Attack

Aromatheraphy
Sludge Bomb
Giga Drain
Sleep Powder

Wakes up Regirock, and removes Toxic from Slowking. Heals with Giga Drain. Kills Meganium with Sludge Bomb. And Sleep Powder's for when I can see a switch from a mile away.

Might try a physically defensive set, but Sp.Def Plume is working for now.

Oh, and Pinco is working! 304 HP and 306 Defense gives it shocking bulk, especially when you resist fighting. Pain Split is good fun too.



I for one have seen some issues with RegiKingPlume, although, this is probobly my team being the issue, seeing as they switch in on one of my other members. Sub CM's can be a royal pain, if they set up. That said, they come in on my Regice... not RegiKingPlume.


Oh, and whoever said Slowking was needed for the fires, think again. In a Slowkingless Metagame, neither Charizard or Magmortar were voted BL2, and Entei didn't have Flare Blitz back when Slowking was around. So Slowking being a Blissey that could actually hit back wasn't needed, and was likly broken.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

SD'd Return is raping Vileplume as it's doing well over 50% damage. Vileplume lacks adequate special attack to do the same to Meganium.

 

[Heysup]

Vileplume. Is. 4x. Resistant. To. Grass (and it has Sleep Powder). Meganium is the counter to this defensive core, the problem being that Regirock can kill counter it if it runs Impish then uses Explode.

That's not what I said. I said that in your Slowking / Regirock / Vileplume combo, don't use Vileplume because it doesn't cover shit; use Meganium.

The only thing that Vileplume sort of deals with better is opposing LO Vileplume, but guess what, not only are they ridiculously easy to counter (use Venomoth, Magneton, Gardevoir....any Fire-type etc), but your defensive Vileplume doesn't even counter it.

There's no "condescension" in these posts, it's more-or-less people being so hopeful this will be good when it's going to be OU #2 (pre-Mence ban OU was the worst thing ever, now it appears to still suck).

I don't know if what your saying has to do with anything, but you definitely were/are being condescending.

EDIT:

I really hope the post below is not responding to me...

 

[Raikaria]

So, you're saying Vileplume deals with the likes of Meganium worse than Meganium, who has no Sludge Bomb at all, would?

You're saying Vileplume handles Fighting-types worse, despite resisting Fighting-type attacks, while Meganium does not?

You're saying Vileplume's Base 100 Sp.Attack dosen't hit as hard off the bat as Meganium's Base 82 Attack or 83 Sp.Attack does to counter things?

Sure, Meganium has more bulk, but Vileplume's typing is better suited to defense, and it can deal more damage to the Grass-types that threaten Regirock and Slowking as well. Not to mention x4 Resist to Grass.

Oh, and, this is how things would go:

Meganium switches in. Takes 12% from SR. Maybe Spikes damage too. Also takes damage from whatever it switches in on. Or, god forbid, Slowking T-Waves it, making Vileplume outspeed, or it takes a Toxic. This is a Stall-based team it's facing, after all, so some form of residual is a given.

Let's not forget Sand Damage is possible, and likly, with RegiKingPlume too. Meganium is already between 94% and dead, probobly around 70% -> 80%, and maybe statused.

Meganium SD's. Vileplume gets in.

4 Sp.Attack, Neutral Nature Sludge Bomb v 4/0 Meganium:
64.2% - 76.2%

+2 Return v 252/0 Vileplume [My personal set], with Life Orb and Adamant Nature:
75.1% - 88.7%

No OHKO there, meanwhile, the above Meganium has probobly just fainted due to LO recoil, if it had taken any attack from what it switched in on, or Sand/Spikes were up. If it got T-Waved, it dies due to Sludge Bomb next turn.

Same Meganium v 252/252 Bold Vileplume:
52.5% - 61.9% Actually, this dosen't change the HKO number, but it would if Meganium lacked Life Orb, or was Jolly.

Speaking of:

36.7% - 43.5% ~ Jolly Non-LO Meganium deals at +2

Meganium neither counters RegiKingPlume, nor is superior in assistance to RegiKing.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

I hate to change the subject guys, but what exactly does one do with a Mawile? She has a lot of weird options, but her stats just let her down.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Mawile is... an OK SD user, I guess? It's not great.

Basically Vileplume is too slow for my taste - I'd rather use cool offensive shit like Venomoth to complement my RegiKing.

 

[Sir Azelf]

I hate to change the subject guys, but what exactly does one do with a Mawile? She has a lot of weird options, but her stats just let her down.

I used a cute set with Super Fang Taunt and Pain Split, made a great Skuntank/flying type counter and whatnot with its decent def, typing and Intimidate. It can BP stuff too and "sweep" i guess lol.

 

[Raikaria]

Ah, now that's something no-one's stated yet. Venomoth.

Sleep Powder? Check
x4 Resistance to Grass? Check
Something to scare away Meganium? Check
Added Bonus: Bug Buzz kills Slowkings.

Downside: No Armomatherapy = no Toxichealing on Slowking, or Wake-Ups for Regirock.

Might try Venomoth on my bulky offense RegiKing team over Vileplume. Or over my Nidoqueen, and stick a Meganium of my own over Vileplume.

For more offensive based teams using RegiKing, Moth > Vileplume, but Vileplume is still superior for stall-based RegiKing, IMO.

Oh, and I've seen a couple of Mawiles too. One was in a BP chain. One was... SPECS o_o. With FIRE BLAST. Caught me utterly off-guard, I expected some free layers from Pinco there, while being a pain with Pain Split, not to switch in from Vileplume, only to get OHKO'ed.

I've seen it all, really, now I've seen SpecsMawile... and used Pinco.

Oh, and I've seen a grand total of 1 Charizard [BellyZard] and 0 Magmortars, although, I HAVE seen a Ninetales.

 

[Heysup]

I'm curious as to why I haven't seen a single Pinsir as of late...especially SD variants. SD variants run through Slowking and Regirock (and meganium, and Vileplume, etc etc).

 

[Lucalibur]

does a +2 CC ohko regirock?i think it does but i dont know for sure. now that you mention though its true pinsir can beat them all if he get a SD.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

I'm curious as to why I haven't seen a single Pinsir as of late...especially SD variants. SD variants run through Slowking and Regirock (and meganium, and Vileplume, etc etc).

It isn't OHKOing Regirock.

 

[supermarth64]

It isn't OHKOing Regirock.

252 Jolly Life Orb Pinsir +2 Earthquake
vs. 252/0 Careful Leftovers Regirock : 81.9% - 96.7% (59% chance to OHKO after SR)
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Regirock : 74.7% - 88.5%

252 Jolly Life Orb Pinsir +2 Close Combat
vs. 252/0 Careful Leftovers Regirock : 98.4% - 115.9% (87% to OHKO w/o SR)
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Regirock : 89.6% - 105.5% (33% to OHKO w/o SR)

And don't give me that bullshit about "oh but it's using defense EVs", it needs SpD investment to be able to live some special hits. There's a reason Blissey uses Def EVs and it's the same reason Regirock should use SpD Evs.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

The difference is Blissey has one weakness. Regirock is weak to every possible common Special Attack so it's a moot point.

 

[Lucalibur]

sandstorm and special defense evs allow him to survive even random hydro pumps. max out only his physical side is a waste of overall great bulkness.

 

[EpicTurtle]

252 Jolly Life Orb Pinsir +2 Earthquake
vs. 252/0 Careful Leftovers Regirock : 81.9% - 96.7% (59% chance to OHKO after SR)
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Regirock : 74.7% - 88.5%

252 Jolly Life Orb Pinsir +2 Close Combat
vs. 252/0 Careful Leftovers Regirock : 98.4% - 115.9% (87% to OHKO w/o SR)
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Regirock : 89.6% - 105.5% (33% to OHKO w/o SR)

And don't give me that bullshit about "oh but it's using defense EVs", it needs SpD investment to be able to live some special hits. There's a reason Blissey uses Def EVs and it's the same reason Regirock should use SpD Evs.

With spikes being more dominate in this tier *despite the lack of good spikes but pineco is good enough =P* most of these attacks will have a high chance to KO, but with SS being more common with the arrival of regirock pincir will be worn down pretty quickly. Add the SR weakness and we got our own mence in OU =D except hes not broken =P.

If I recall though. Regirock needs some defense to live a CC from a hitmonchan most of the time.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

Just go Impish on Regirock, Defense EVs are pointless.

 

[blasphemy1]

You can't expect Regirock to tank hits from everything, and by the time Pinsir comes around for a late game sweep it is probably damaged. A lot of teams rely on it for Stealth Rock, which means it might take 25% from two switch-ins (-6.25% for Leftovers). There are just too many factors for Regirock to reliably stop Pinsir. Regirock will be so damaged after taking a +2 Close Combat or Earthquake that it won't be able to stop other physical sweepers late game.

 

[Leman]

Responding to old stuff, but most of the stuff in between is... ._. Meganium>Vileplume. Meganium resists Earthquake and doesn't get utterly raped by Medicham. I don't see the need to run max/max calm on Slowking especially when you pair it with Reigrock. Between the two you are gonna be walling all the Fire types. As for wallbreakers, use LOMedicham. That thing wrecks everything. It always has wrecked everything.

edit: Are you people seriously considering Gabite as the premier wallbreaker?

 

[Unholy Confessions]

Regirock
Slowking
Gligar (to counter Pinsir, completely)
Vileplume
Glalie/Gabite (to counter R/S/V)

So we've basically determined the generic NU team, much like how OU has a generic team.

 

[Heysup]

Hi my name is Relicanth. I use Rock Polish and proceed to OHKO your entire team.

There's also Sharpedo....uh...like...CM Gardevoir...Medicham... I dunno. You have barely any Speed on that team and no power.

And yes defensive Vileplume is still outclassed by Meganium.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

Relicanth isn't doing anything to that team, IIRC Vileplume if EVed right can take a Head Smash. The point being with RegiKing and Vileplume in the same tier, it's going to be so over-centralized. Possibly as bad as OU.

 

[Raikaria]

From what I've been seeing on PO, it's worse than OU.

OU has few pokemon above 25%, ever. I can say Slowking is at something stupid like 50% from what I've seen. That's more like the centralisation in UBERS.

Anyway, I'm making my Bulky Offense RegiKing team now, gonna test that out once it's done.

 

[elchupo]

I'm not that familiar with NU at all, I mean I've tried (and failed) to make good teams in the past, but.... is Whiscash at all a threat? I've been using him in some UU and he seems really underated. Reaching 328 Spe with awesome dual STAB seems pretty potent.

 

[Heysup]

The difficulty is finding time to set up. Most stall teams will have a bulky Grass or Roar and offense will simply KO you before you DD.

On RegiKing: Slowking is the big thing really, Regirock has no recovery (unless it's restalk), it's a great tank but a mediocre wall. Carry a switch in for both and you're going to be fine, they aren't that hard to switch into. You can set up on them as well (CM Gardevoir anyone).

Just realize this:

The more centralized a metagame, the easier it is to anti-metagame. Especially against defensive Pokemon.