Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[thesecondbest]

I feel like I have to keep saying this every 10 posts....

Usage or lack thereof does not prove whether a pokemon is broken or not.

I don't care that Altaria isn't common on Flying and neither should anyone else. If it's broken on Dragon teams, it's broken on Flying teams. No ifs, ands, or buts. An Altaria on a Flying team will do just as much damage to Dark or Fighting than an Altaria on a Dragon team will. I'm still not entirely convinced that Altaria is broken, but unless you can think of something besides usage that differentiates Flying Altaria from Dragon Altaria, they are both equally at risk of being banned.

On the topic of Pinsirite, I was honestly quite shocked when the idea was first brought up, but I do remember all throughout XY and even into the beginning of ORAS, I considered Mega Pinsir to be one of the most threatening megas out there. It's definitely no joke. I'm not entirely sure it should be banned, but it is certainly more of a pressing concern than Manaphy (which is outclassed by Keldeo imo).

And for those of you that are concerned about Bug's future if both Genesect and Pinsirite are banned, I guess I just have to be blunt with you. Deal with it. For now it's only a possibility, but even if those two bans happen, Bug will still be viable. It will likely drop in usage but it will still be far from the likes of Grass and Ice. Other types have lost key pokemon and survived (Dark users are probably still salty about Greninja). Bug can survive too.

ummmm.... what? I agree usage does not prove if something is broken or not, but it is a very strong indicator. also, things can be different on two types. Why is zapdos legal on electric? The ban was flying only because flying needed a nerf. If nobody uses altaria on flying and flying needs a nerf, banning altaria will not make any difference at all.
I hope the pinsir thing is a joke, it is good but not fast enough in todays metagame. I think the only op thing about bug is the move sticky web (no tailwind does not count.)
Hoopa-U needs an instaban on psychic and a test on dark, and Hoopa regular will be balanced on both. Landorus-I is not overpowered at all. Mega Sableye is great, but not broken. Each type can deal with him, be it with setup or with a powerful special hit. Charizard-X needs a ban on flying though, it has better typing than altaria (in my opinion) and is more threatening, has higher speed, has sd to break stall, has willowisp, wow.
Altaria I'm not decided on. I have finally started playing monotype on the ladder and will resume when the OMOTM gets changed, so I'll see after some testing. Zapdos i don't know either, and i obviously cant find out since it is banned.

 

[RZL]

I feel like I have to keep saying this every 10 posts...

Usage or lack thereof does not prove whether a pokemon is broken or not.

I don't care that Altaria isn't common on Flying and neither should anyone else. If it's broken on Dragon teams, it's broken on Flying teams. No ifs, ands, or buts. An Altaria on a Flying team will do just as much damage to Dark or Fighting than an Altaria on a Dragon team will. I'm still not entirely convinced that Altaria is broken, but unless you can think of something besides usage that differentiates Flying Altaria from Dragon Altaria, they are both equally at risk of being banned.

On the topic of Pinsirite, I was honestly quite shocked when the idea was first brought up, but I do remember all throughout XY and even into the beginning of ORAS, I considered Mega Pinsir to be one of the most threatening megas out there. It's definitely no joke. I'm not entirely sure it should be banned, but it is certainly more of a pressing concern than Manaphy (which is outclassed by Keldeo imo).

And for those of you that are concerned about Bug's future if both Genesect and Pinsirite are banned, I guess I just have to be blunt with you. Deal with it. For now it's only a possibility, but even if those two bans happen, Bug will still be viable. It will likely drop in usage but it will still be far from the likes of Grass and Ice. Other types have lost key pokemon and survived (Dark users are probably still salty about Greninja). Bug can survive too.

Agreeing with you on Manaphy, like seriously...whoever thought this...

Also read the last sentence in my Flying Altaria section...if it is not commonly used how would the ban affect the type and furthermore, Flying has 3 Megas that do the same job that is the main difference... I think if Mega Charizard X was banned then Mega Altaria should be banned, otherwise it is simply outclassed, as the types Charizard X hits are more important than the types Mega Altaria hits.

Bug would easily still be a strong type it has 2 other strong Megas in Mega Heracross and Mega Scizor.

Also going to add my thoughts on Genesect.
Just ban the uber!

 

[Acast]

ummmm.... what? I agree usage does not prove if something is broken or not, but it is a very strong indicator. also, things can be different on two types. Why is zapdos legal on electric? The ban was flying only because flying needed a nerf. If nobody uses altaria on flying and flying needs a nerf, banning altaria will not make any difference at all.

Agreeing with you on Manaphy, like seriously...whoever thought this...

Also read the last sentence in my Flying Altaria section...if it is not commonly used how would the ban affect the type and furthermore, Flying has 3 Megas that do the same job that is the main difference... I think if Mega Charizard X was banned then Mega Altaria should be banned, otherwise it is simply outclassed, as the types Charizard X hits are more important than the types Mega Altaria hits.

Bug would easily still be a strong type it has 2 other strong Megas in Mega Heracross and Mega Scizor.

Also going to add my thoughts on Genesect.
Just ban the uber!

At this point we're not talking about how the Altarianite ban would affect Flying as a type. As far as I'm concerned, Flying doesn't need another nerf. We're talking about if Mega Altaria itself is too good to be in the metagame, regardless of what type it's on. Like I said in my last post, Mega Altaria will dominate Dark and Fighting just as much on Flying as it would on Dragon, so why are we differentiating the two types? The Zapdos ban was a completely different situation with different intentions. It was intended to specifically nerf Flying. Zapdos itself is not OP in the slightest, it just allowed Flying to be a bit too good. In Altaria's case, we're arguing the opposite. That Flying doesn't need a nerf, but Altaria itself is too good to keep around. If it's too good to keep around, it should not matter what type it's on or how common it is.

 

[DoW]

So I've just gotten internet and I'm losing it again in an hour, I will however repost what I said last time about genesect as I think it's still a very valid point.

I was probably at the forefront of people asking for Genesect to be banned until a short while ago, due to a) it being hard to hit, due to scarf u-turn everywhere and b) being able to choose what it beats to an extent in the same way as greninja, for example it can run ice beam / energy ball to destroy ground, boltbeam is nasty for flying, even stuff like flamethrower/gunk shot for bug and grass, etc.
For example, on my main Flying team I run Landorus with 11 Def IVs in order to make Genesect get the Atk boost, in order that it doesn't instantly get a KO with ice beam. This I took for overcentralisation, while it can also be a problem for a number of types.
However, having watched the meta for a while and more recently used a bug team, I've found it's not as bad as I earlier thought. While it's tough for these types to deal with, they can still beat it and in any case the only common set is scarf u-turn/boltbeam/flamethrower which makes it easy enough to predict, and once you can play around that set (which every type can) then it's evidently not broken.
Another argument is that Bug is a strong enough type already so doesn't need an uber dropped down, however Bug clearly isn't broken with Genesect and our aim should be to ban as few pokemon as possible, so clearly this argument does not hold water either.

tl;dr Contrary to what I've been saying for almost a year, Genesect on Bug does not need a ban. #Praise Genesect.

Other thoughts: Zard X runs through a number of types such as ghost and electric extremely easily, it lessens Flying's weakness to boltbeam a huge amount and is in general a very strong poke. Banning it would make flying weaker to Ice and Electric, and increase how matchup-oriented Flying is, however I think it is far too powerful and should therefore be banned despite this. (Edit: Perhaps not on Fire, due to lessened support. It should be dealt with on Flying first though.)
I previously stated my thoughts on M-Altaria, concluding it should be banned.
Mega Pinsir does not make things entirely about who sets up first in bug vs. bug, as things like forretress can come in and boom even if it sets up while it struggles to set up itself on the likes of Volcarona, Armaldo, Galvantula (dat 30% para plus sash), Genesect, Scizor (banded bullet punch 2HKOs while Return + Quick Attack in return is a roll). This isn't to say that Bug mirror-matches often hinge around it, but the same could easily be said of Volcarona which most certainly isn't broken. I can't say I know all that much about its matchup with grass but cradily + ferro would appear to do a certain amount of work if predicted well and if eq over cc, respectively. There's some very bad matchups, sure, but it needs setup to sweep and can be dealt with far more easily than talon judging by what I've seen while ussing it. No ban.

Regarding the others, I generally feel that Sab needs a ban, Manaphy doesn't need a ban and Zapdos should probably stay how it is, however we should let the meta settle down before making any big decisions about this.

 

[terrors]

One Hoopa-U set that I made for shits and giggles (which turned out to be great)

Hoopa-U @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Trick Room
- Taunt
- Dark Pulse
- Hyperspace Hole

Trick Room Hoopa-U, works better in Psychic because of teammates that appreciate TR (M-Gardevoir, Slowbro) Life Orb lets it deal huge chunks of damage. 32 Speed lets it outspeed 24 Speed Skarmory, even with Quiet Nature, (deez speed creeps, maan) to taunt it. Dark Pulse and Hyperspace Hole for STAB.

I don't have any replays rn unfortunately, but when I'll get time to battle, I'll try to show Hoopa off ;)

Hoopa is an incredible monster, with unbelievable attack and special attack. Its speed holds it back but Trick Room or Choice Scarf takes care of that. I'm still undecided whether I want it to get banned or not.

(Also, I have yet to battle anyone that used normal Hoopa lmao)

 

[Neimenko]

I've been reading this discussion for quite some time now and after being able to play PS! again after a while I decided to share my opinion:
M-Altaria: I started using dragon mono yesterday and I can already say that mirror dragon matches are extremly boring. As someone already stated, who sets up 1st wins the game which is stupid considering how many special dragons rely on draco meteor. I like using it, but I do think it should be banned globally. Frankly, types which dragon destroys like fire or electric still won't appreciate facing it, but banning it will make things a bit more fair.
M-Pinsir: It's indeed strong but not nearly unstoppable after it sets up like altaria. It also isn't so bulky. According to matchup tables, bug destroys dark, grass and ice, matchup vs. fighting is neutral (if I'm using matchup tables right, not sure....). Bug naturally gives problems to grass and dark, but I haven't really used them so I don't know if pinsir is the biggest problem for them. I used ice mono for quite some time and I assure you, scizor and genesect are far, far more problematic for ice than mega pinsir. Don't ban
ZardX: It's too good on flying, if you let it set up it's questionable if you'll manage to stop it. Thanks to its decent bulk it can set up relatively easy and it outright destroys some monos. imo it should be banned on flying.
Genesect: Neutral on this. I've used it but I found it a bit underwhelming if it doesn't get the correct download boost.
Zapdos: Even if both mega altaria and zard X get banned from flying it'll still have a great ddancer in mega gyarados and decent zard Y. I don't think it'll be nerfed to the point where this thing should come back. Don't unban.
M-Sableye: I hate this thing. It's extremly boring and annoying. It gives trouble to some teams and makes fighting vs. ghost matchup even worse. It gives a lot of trouble to psychic aswell. It might be the best mon ghost mono has but I'm leaning towards ban
I have barely faced manaphy so I'm neutral on that.

 

[Acast]

One Hoopa-U set that I made for shits and giggles (which turned out to be great)

Hoopa-U @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Trick Room
- Taunt
- Dark Pulse
- Hyperspace Hole

Trick Room Hoopa-U, works better in Psychic because of teammates that appreciate TR (M-Gardevoir, Slowbro) Life Orb lets it deal huge chunks of damage. 32 Speed lets it outspeed 24 Speed Skarmory, even with Quiet Nature, (deez speed creeps, maan) to taunt it. Dark Pulse and Hyperspace Hole for STAB.

I don't have any replays rn unfortunately, but when I'll get time to battle, I'll try to show Hoopa off ;)

Hoopa is an incredible monster, with unbelievable attack and special attack. Its speed holds it back but Trick Room or Choice Scarf takes care of that. I'm still undecided whether I want it to get banned or not.

(Also, I have yet to battle anyone that used normal Hoopa lmao)

But...why are you running Speed EVs at all on a Trick Room set? I like the concept and I bet it could work, but I think you would be better off with 0 Speed EVs and 0 Speed IVs, especially if you're already using a Quiet nature.

 

[terrors]

But...why are you running Speed EVs at all on a Trick Room set? I like the concept and I bet it could work, but I think you would be better off with 0 Speed EVs and 0 Speed IVs, especially if you're already using a Quiet nature.

Skarmory's given me a lot of problems with my mono-psychic so I kinda want to have a good lead that can prevent it from completely blocking me from setting up TR/phazing me. I dunno, really, I'll probably battle a bit more with this team before deciding if I want to make it 0 speed.

 

[Wyn]

Alright, so I did a bit of laddering with a Dragon mono starring Mega Alt, and I want to share some replays with yall, showcasing what it's capable of. (not posting dark or fighting replays cause the outcome is obvious)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-251098451
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-251379126
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-251097680
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-251101636
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-251135332
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-251164891
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-194533963
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-251313361

Conclusion: This thing has an amazing natural bulk which lets it setup rather easily against a lot of stuff, refresh/heal bell to get rid of unwanted status, and after a few boosts, even resisted frustration does a hell lot of damage (see replay 4 (its not even max attack)). Apart from being close to auto win against types like fighting and dark, it does amazingly well in a lot more matchups (electric, water, normal, psychic) due to its ablitiy to be able to setup on anything that cannot do more than 50% damage to it, and go on to sweep you.
In my opinion this thing needs to go.

 

[LemonJello88]

I'd like to include my thoughts on Mega-Pinsir as it was mentioned in previous posts and was considered for discussion.

Mega-Pinsir, in my opinion, should not be banned. Don't get me wrong, it's a great Pokemon, though it has ways to be defeated in which I will mention below.

• Stealth Rock - Mega-Pinsir, on switch-in, takes 50% from Stealth Rock which is accessible to all types. This flaw allows it to switch out only once [unless Forretress/Armaldo is still alive or it has not mega evolved (and Mega-Pinsir is ineffective in its regular form)] leaving it to die from an attack. It comes in, takes 25%, mega evolves, and is only able to switch in only one more time.
• Speed - Victini can live a +2 Quick Attack and kills with V-Create. Excadrill under sand, Terrakion, (as mentioned below) as well as many others.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 195-229 (57.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

• Bulk - It loses to Electric with Zapdos. Aegislash has the ability to live a +2 Earthquake and retaliate with a +2 Shadow Ball due to Weakness Policy. Close Combat doesn't do a lot to Mega Aggron. You can use bulk with many other Pokemon as well.

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 268-316 (82.7 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 172-204 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now, I will talk about match-ups that others may think are bad against Mega-Pinsir, which they are, but, again, they have ways to get rid of it.

• Vs. Grass - Mega-Pinsir does destroy grass, but there are ways to defeat it, Rotom-Mow and Cradily. Rotom-Mow, even with a Choice Scarf, lives a +2 Quick Attack (in which Mega-Pinsir is forced to go for, not having the ability to switch out as I mentioned above) as shown below, and is able to go for Volt Switchor Thunderbolt. Cradily also survives a Close Combat and retaliates with a Rock Slide which OHKO's after Stealth Rock.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-C: 183-216 (75.9 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 306-362 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

• Vs. Fighting - Terrakion beats it with Stone Edge and outspends regardless of Choice Scarf, and easily lives a +2 Quick Attack. Cobalion/Infernape sets up Stealth Rock. Focus Sash Breloom can Rock Tomb after being hit with a Return or Quick Attack.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 211-250 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

• Vs. Bug - I don't think many people have considered Sticky Web, but I apologize if you have and I didn't see it. Galvantula can set up Sticky Web to lower Pinsir's speed upon switch-in leaving our own Pinsir, Genesect, or even Volcarona (with the right HP investment, can live a Quick Attack) to revenge kill it. Armando can live a Return and fire back with any rock move. Forretress/Armaldo can set up Stealth Rock.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Armaldo: 246-291 (69.4 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 276-326 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

TL;DR: Mega-Pinsir has ways to go down, and, despite it's strength, has noticeable flaws. It can be defeated against bad type match-ups against it. Mega-Pinsir should not be banned.

Thank you for taking the time to read why I think Mega-Pinsir should not be banned.

 

[Tyke]

Mega-Altaria

I don't really view mega-altaria as a surefire ban, but I feel it's worthy of a suspect based on the way it can set up and sweep on so many types so easily. Dark, Fighting, Fire, Dragon, and Electric teams all provide ample opportunity for mega-altaria to set up and struggle to take it out.

Electric: Electric struggles with it's lack of poison or steel coverage. It has Magnezone, but all magnezone sets are outsped at +1 and unless you run air balloon or have a unbroken sturdy you're stuck relying on thunder-wave Thundy and hoping Maltaria doesn't abuse healing wish support or just switch out. Counter Ampharos is something I've been trying lately to deal with both Mega-Altaria and Mega-Charizard X, as you can bait an attack and live it without mega-evolving with moderate investment; but it's an incredibly niche set.

Dark: Mega-Altaria sets up on an upsetting number of Dark Pokemon; Mandibuzz, Tyranitar, Crawdaunt, and more. You mention Weavile as a check but Weavile can only finish altaria off; unless the Altaria isn't running enough speed EVs to outspeed at +1 (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 151-179 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO). Even then Mega-Altaria can switch out and come back with healing wish later.

Fighting: Again, fighting struggles to stop a mega-altaria at +1 and provides the opportunity for Queen-DDD to set up. Fighting has supply to scarfers who can outspeed a +1 altaria but neither terrakion or Keldeo can KO it, only slow it down with icy wind or hope for a flinch with iron head. Bullet Punch Priority exists but again mega-altaria is bulky enough to roost it off and can just switch, ultimately.

Fire: Hope that Heatran is a jolly scarf or has an intact balloon. And again, Mega-Altaria can just switch out. Rotom-H can paralyze it maybe?

Dragon: Hope you have a +spd scarf Kyurem-B, a unbroken multiscale, or managed to set up mega-altaria first.

Those are just the most lopsided match ups; mega-altaria can also set up easily on normal teams who can really just hope they have the right Ditto happiness. A pokemon's usage doesn't translate to whether it's OP or not; it might make it less of a priority however. I think Mega-Altaria is suspect worthy.

 

[Neimenko]

Dragon: Hope you have a +spd scarf Kyurem-B, a unbroken multiscale, or managed to set up mega-altaria first.

Dragonite is a shaky check and loses to offensive M-Altaria
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 331-390 (102.4 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even variants with 64 HP EVs have high chance to OHKO Dragonite, while dragonite's espeed isn't guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Altaria: 135-159 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
Scarfed Kyurem-B can't OHKO it (not sure if this is the right set haven't really used scarfed one)
32 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 224-266 (76.9 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Altaria: 216-256 (74.2 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mirror dragon matches are extremly boring because of this. Lets say you have unbroken multiscale and scarfed kyurem-b that can still outspeed it. You might get rid of it, but you'll lose at least one pokemon.

 

[terrors]

My thoughts on some of the recent debates:

Mega Altaria: Mega Altaria is possibly the strongest set-up sweeper in the meta rn, with access to Dragon Dance, Heal Bell and Roost. Its STAB Frustration/Return can even knock out Pokemon that resist it with a few dragon dance. It finds ample opportunities to set up in the following teams; Grass, Water, Electric, Dark, Fighting and Normal. It isn't even hindered by burns or paras thanks to heal bell, and can roost up on countless pokemon. Dragon also has access to Latias which can healing wish in case Altaria gets worn down. Also being Dragons only immunity to opposing dragon, it can set up on any Pokemon that dares go for Outrage, making Dragon vs Dragon matchups boring and repetitive, for whoever sets up with Altaria first wins. I support a Global Ban for it.

Mega Charizard X: Mega Charizard X is an extremely strong Pokemon for Flying. It makes Grass vs Flying matchups completely type based (Cradily being the only thing that stops it) yet its 4x weakness to stealth rock holds it back. However Skarmory works as an excellent partner for it, not only getting rid of rocks but being able to take ground, dragon and rock type moves aimed for it. If Charizard manages to set up vs most teams (which is not exactly hard thanks to decent bulk) its mostly game over. However, its not half as good on fire. I support a Ban on Flying.

Mega Pinsir: Mega Pinsir's amazing bulk coupled with 155 attack makes it unbelievable. Yet its not nearly as strong as some believe. Its speed comes as a major drawback, forcing it to rely on Quick Attack, which is not enough to KO most mons. It has an excellent matchup against most types but nearly all of them have counters for it. Grass gets Cradily, which survives a Close Combat and retaliates with Rock Slides, picking off the KO after SR damage. Mega Pinsir also fails to switch out more than once if stealth rocks are up. Don't Ban.

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 306-362 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Cradily Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 232-280 (85.6 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Genesect: Genesect has access to outrageous coverage moves in the form of Energy Ball, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower and Ice Beam. It has access to U-Turn for momentum and its ability allows it to run mixed sets. It makes matchups between Bug and Flying almost one sided, with thunderbolt and ice beam. It even has the ability to outspeed and 2HKO +1 Mega Altaria while Earthquake fails to even 2HKO.

+1 248 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 202-238 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 192+ Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 118-139 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

All in all, Genesect deserves to get Banned. I still fail to grasp the reason why it isn't already..

I would've written my opinions on Zapdos (unban) and Mega-Sableye, but I'm tired for now. I'll probably make another post for them later on.

 

[1 True Lycan]

I think you guys are forgetting that pinsir can easily set up an SD against grass which means that cradily will not be able to survive close combat. As such, the only counter grass has is scarf rotom-cut which still has a chance to be 0hko'd by +2 quick attack from full after rocks (+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-C: 183-216 (75.9 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock).

Also, most bugs team have sticky webs so the only way fighting is surviving is by winning a bunch of speed ties vs galvantula and taunting it, or by running a spinner. Most people would agree that the spinners available to fighting are unviable, so let us assume that the bug player manages to get webs up. If this is the case, everything dies to return or close combat. Cobalion is used for rocks so it is unlikely that it will be healthy enough to take a close combat (252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 240-284 (62.1 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery).

I would consider banning mega pinsir simply because it wins almost single handedly against grass and fighting. I think every other type has a good way of checking pinsir, but it is too much for grass and fighting to handle.

 

[terrors]

I think you guys are forgetting that pinsir can easily set up an SD against grass which means that cradily will not be able to survive close combat. As such, the only counter grass has is scarf rotom-cut which still has a chance to be 0hko'd by +2 quick attack from full after rocks (+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-C: 183-216 (75.9 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock).

Also, most bugs team have sticky webs so the only way fighting is surviving is by winning a bunch of speed ties vs galvantula and taunting it, or by running a spinner. Most people would agree that the spinners available to fighting are unviable, so let us assume that the bug player manages to get webs up. If this is the case, everything dies to return or close combat. Cobalion is used for rocks so it is unlikely that it will be healthy enough to take a close combat (252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 240-284 (62.1 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery).

I would consider banning mega pinsir simply because it wins almost single handedly against grass and fighting. I think every other type has a good way of checking pinsir, but it is too much for grass and fighting to handle.

You have a point; I had completely forgotten about Swords Dance. But lets not forget that fighting gets Terrakion, which can outspeed and KO Pinsir while Quick Attack fails to kill even at +2.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 211-250 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 556-660 (205.1 - 243.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Edit: Just to make myself clear, Terrakions outspeeds even with sticky web if its scarfed (although that is the most common set right now)

 

[1 True Lycan]

Ah yes I knew I was missing something lol. If terrakion is scarfed, as most are, then it can outspeed pinsir despite the webs and KO. This does require it to be at near full health and terrakion is one of fighting's biggest threats vs bug, but it is possible. Getting a swords dance up against fighting is also difficult so I guess mega pinsir doesn't completely destroy fighting.

In that case it only destroys one type (grass). Now this is more difficult to make a judgement since if we ban pinsir, I feel like we would be compelled to look at scizor which also destroys one type (ice) and to a certain extent rock. It's difficult to just say 'deal with it' to these types but banning these pokemon is also kinda unfair to bug and steel. I'm just going to reserve judgement for now until I see some more arguments.

 

[Anttya]

Since pika got some replays of Alt on Dragon teams, here's some replays of Alt on Flying teams. (It's still broken)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-249384917 - water
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-250783818 - rock (Not a c-team at all!)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/eos-monotype-68030 - dragon
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-242682112 - flying

sorry if it's messy, I'm on mobile

 

[Argus_Was_Taken]

Kay so, I run a pretty standard ghost mono and I've noticed that Charizard-X can sweep me whenever it wants after 1 ddance.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-251791532

I can understand why it wouldn't deserve a ban if it were preventable, but like, literally nothing stops it on ghost. And ghost isn't even at a type disadvantage.

 

[Fractions.]

Since I mostly use bug, and am very good at it, only thing that can counter M-Alt is Iron Head from Genesect. Or maybe a banded Bullet Punch from a Scizor.

Also, those peeps who think that M-Pinsir should be banned, M-Pinsir can be countered very easily. Anything that can outspeed it can kill it, implied it has some attacking power. Also, there is a thing known as Sableye, which can easily Will-o-Wisp it (or other 'Prankster's too).

Also, there is talk about banning Genesect. I want a ban too, but it'll drop bug as the most useful type, making Flying the first choice. If Genesect has to be banned, we have to ban M-Altaria too.

 

[Azelea]

Since I mostly use bug, and am very good at it, only thing that can counter M-Alt is Iron Head from Genesect. Or maybe a banded Bullet Punch from a Scizor.

Also, those peeps who think that M-Pinsir should be banned, M-Pinsir can be countered very easily. Anything that can outspeed it can kill it, implied it has some attacking power. Also, there is a thing known as Sableye, which can easily Will-o-Wisp it (or other 'Prankster's too).

Also, there is talk about banning Genesect. I want a ban too, but it'll drop bug as the most useful type, making Flying the first choice. If Genesect has to be banned, we have to ban M-Altaria too.

Saying that something is not broken cause it can be Will o Wisped doesnt make any sense tbh, "Yeah, Mega Mawile was not broken!! You can Will o Wisp it!!. Saying: "Anything that can outspeed it can kill it" Is not really true when talking about Mega-Pinsir, Cause it gets access to this nice thing called Priority!

By any means i dont think Mega-Pinsir is broken, i dont even think that its the best Mega on Bug.

"If Genesect has to be banned, we have to ban M-Altaria too." It doesn't work that way tho, Both are different cases, If one of them is broken it has to go, not depending on the other.

 

[Fractions.]

Saying that something is not broken cause it can be Will o Wisped doesnt make any sense tbh, "Yeah, Mega Mawile was not broken!! You can Will o Wisp it!!. Saying: "Anything that can outspeed it can kill it" Is not really true when talking about Mega-Pinsir, Cause it gets access to this nice thing called Priority!

By any means i dont think Mega-Pinsir is broken, i dont even think that its the best Mega on Bug.

"If Genesect has to be banned, we have to ban M-Altaria too." It doesn't work that way tho, Both are different cases, If one of them is broken it has to go, not depending on the other.

Since I was half drunk, don't take that too seriously. What I meant to say was

1. M-Pinsir isn't that good.
2. M-Altaria needs a ban.
3. M-Sableye needs a ban.

 

[feen]

Lol this is funny since everyone wants to ban Zard X because it plows through Electric and somehow Ghost. Well, in ghost, Zard cant setup on Jellicent Gengar Chandelure (if played right) Aegislash does 50-50 golurk so I don't see the point. And dont go by banning it cuz electric has nothing it does. Thundy can twave and Amph lives a +1 DClaw. If we're gonna ban zard we might as well ban Scizor since it 6-0s ice teams. Yeah we all wanna use Mega Aero when Lando is around, or Mega Pidge when we have Clucknadus / Togekiss and we all love a 4x weak to rocks Zard Y right? SAVE ZARD X

 

[Fírnen]

I give quickly my opinion about:

• M-Charizard X: Since the beginning I think he gives some matchup like against Bug, Ghost, Fire, Steel, Eletric And Grass.
If you play the Bulky DD, you can easily defeat all these types. In Flying team, he is well used with Skarmory and Gliscor, Rock and Ground weakness are already covered.
Togekiss, Articuno can Heal statuts.
Fire can't give this support (except if you play Flareon Heal Bell...) . Fire type against Bug, Ghost, Steel and Grass are, in my opinion, already a bad match up. Electric can Para M-Zard X (Thundurus Prankster by example).
So for M-Zard X, ban him from Flying looks a good idea.

• M-Altaria: Like some people say, he needs to be banned. Proves have been showed (Last was given by Anttya). I won't repeat same things.
Ban this nice bird.

• Genesect was, for me, only unbanned to give an Ice move. But I invite you to read the post about him from Inwhale: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-tiering-updates.3493087/page-23#post-5708051 . Possibility ban for M-Zard X can mattered for Flying.

• M-Pinsir: I don't think he need to be banned. Okay, after one SD he's really strong but he can be outspeeded by many Pokemons. You've just to build in function of this thread.
Especially when rocks are put and when you force the switch.
Grass type is just the type who can't really struggle with M-Pinsir. But when you've behind M-Pinsir Volcarona and all bugs... Can we really think we lost only because my opponent had M-Pinsir?

•M-Sableye: I don't think he need to be banned. He's annoying, it's true. Him ability makes him great and avoid Toxic and WoW... A Great bulk but he can be countered.
Steel: Something called Heatran.
Fighting: Guts Heracross, Sub Keldeo or Specs.
Dragon: Latios Spec, Hydreigon LO, Druddigon Mold Breaker (Toxic).
Electric: Special sweepers, M-Ampharos Mold Breaker (Toxic) (Not yet understood Mold Breaker can rekt him?)
Water: Slowbro CM, Special sweeper, Sub (M-)Gyarados, Manaphy, ....
Fairy: Fairy
Fire: M-Zard Y,...
Ice: Special sweepers as Kyurem.
Bug: Volcarona
Normal: Stall war easily won by Normal. Or just M-Audino CM, Spec Exploud, M-Loppuny.
Grass: Whimiscott,...
Poison: Nidoking, SD BP Scolieped,...
Psychic: Gardevoir(-M), Slowbro CM,...
Rock: M-Diancie, M-Aggron, Omastar...
Ground: Landorus, Sub SD Chomp, M-Camerupt.
Ghost: Chandelure, Spec Sweeper.
Dark: Lum Berry Bisharp, Crawdaunt, Hydreigon LO,...
Flying: M-Zard Y, Landorus, Gyarados(-M),...

This is enough to say M-Sableye is annoying but not broken for me.

 

[DEG]

When talking about banning a Pokemon it relies on two factors, team support and it's ability to sweep alone most of teams. The sole reason that Mega Gallade from Psychic is due to the great team support that this Pokemon have, and the reason that people want zard X banned only on flying? It's also because of team support. So when putting mega sableye in the spotlight we add the factor of the team support that I explained earlier, per instance most of it's checks are stopped by other team members. Read my post for a more detailed information which a page away.

 

[Fírnen]

Perhaps i've bad seen but in your post, did you have explained about support M-Sableye have?
Umbreon for special Spong and heal Bell/Wish but for ghost?