Other OverUsed General Discussion

[Photofluid]

My opinion of Gen 6 is twofold:

Gen 6 is the Generation of Priority; and this has some surprising effects; such as making slower; bulky attackers better than before. Having all the speed in the world isn't that important when there is Scizor; Azumarill; Talonflame and Ageislash priority-hitting everything with either incredibly powerful attacks or incredible attack stats. Priority shapes this metagame. Those 4 pokemon shape the metagame.

This is made even more notable by the fact that all 4 of these pokemon can set-up. Swords Dance for the Steels; Belly Drum Azumarill and Bulk Up/SD Talonflame. Hell; a case can be made for things such as SD Adaptabilty Crawdaunt; SD MegaPinsir and of course; while banned now; PuP MegaKhan.


Gen 6 is far more enjoyable than the weather wars of Gen 5. I can only imagine Gen 5 OU without the weather; and swamped with less priority.

Stall is as dead as it was in Gen 5; the complete lack of assistance to Stall and Stall Mega-Evos sealed this. When the best thing stall got all Gen was Klefki you know it's bad when Offense got things like Talonflame.

The meta is very physically based since physical bulk is required to survive the priority. Special attackers seem to catch people off-guard in fact. I've been running an offensive LO Espeon with great effect recently; because no-one seems to expect it. They all think 'Duel Screens so set-up priority user can come in'. Nope. And that Espeon just took out 2 of your team.

At most I see 1 special attacker and 1 Mixed Wallbreaker or Utility-Special Attacker [Like Rotom-W].

Due to the heavily physical nature of the meta; the high amount of priority; and the resulting reduction on speed emphasis; Burn has overtaken Paralysis as the most common and crippling status condition. Whereas before special attackers would make Burn spamming less of an issue; the physical nature of the meta means few special attackers are being run now.

Also the nerf to special-moves dosen't help special attackers.

Also this isn't a HO Meta; it's a BO Meta.

GF is actually makes a whole lot of efforts to shut down HO in this generation, priority is just one of the solution given, the nerf to special moves(which is much easier to abuse than the like of CC) and the defog buff also aim at hitting HO teams, and oh how can we forget about the weather nerf? Also, the introduction of the Greninja, Noivern and Talonflame which all have their speed hanging sky high to 120s is another solution given, outspeeding everyone but does not hit hard enough to get through the walls. This is however shut down by priorities though so we are actually seeing decreasing popularity besides Talonflame. Another solution given would be spider web, but as usual the distribution is so poor to be effective in our OU meta.

To conclude, pure HO teams are basically dead now, but HO team does have some new toys to play with. Strong priority users can be usable for HO teams, and the community also balance the game by releasing Deoxy-S(at least for now) and drizzle SS. Plus as usual there are always some strange yet effective counters people created, which in this case, will be things like Defiant Bisharp, Spiderweb Defog and you got a +4 ready to sweep you team.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Doesn't matter how often you see it, it just matters how good it is, and how much it is used overall. I imagine DeoSharp is very popular nowadays, especially with this initial Defog hype. Skarmory, Mew, and Whirlwind Mandibuzz are the only Defoggers that can actually beat Bisharp.

The other thing is you say skarmory and mandibuzz are the only things...I have played a lot and there is a skarm or mandi on like every other team where as bisharp and deoxys not so much. I agree that deosharp is good I just think you overestimate its usefulness.

I think that is already good enough for a pokemon to make at least low OU, and we are already seeing continue increase of defog usage compare to the beginning of the meta. And Bisharp alone makes it that much more difficult to do so. I think it is safe to compare it with mamoswine last gen.

Also, specifically for Volcarona, it definitely does not appreciate +2 sucker punch at all so I don't think it is that much an issue(mind games is not very reliable). Plus you don't really want to use Volcarona as your defogger anyway.

I get the feeling we are talking about two different things, it sounds like you are saying that deosharp deserves OU but I never doubted that just said it wasnt as big of a threat as mentioned by the other gentlemen. I also never said volcarona would be a defogger, just stated it would ohko both deoxys and bisharp, with volc not being a defogger bisharp would most likely not be at +2. But yeah if bisharp got a free +2 it would be very dangerous but no more dangerous than any other offensive threat this gen with a +2.

Due to the heavily physical nature of the meta; the high amount of priority; and the resulting reduction on speed emphasis; Burn has overtaken Paralysis as the most common and crippling status condition. Whereas before special attackers would make Burn spamming less of an issue; the physical nature of the meta means few special attackers are being run now.

I agree with just about everything you said but this part, while there is no question that the meta is way more physical now and burnsare more valuable now than ever, I think paralysis is still very common especially with ferro paraseeding and kleki being a giant asshole. Again though I guess I dont disagree with you but I think its worth mentioning that patalysis is still prevelant and useful especially for a BO team against a HO team.

 

[Photofluid]

I get the feeling we are talking about two different things, it sounds like you are saying that deosharp deserves OU but I never doubted that just said it wasnt as big of a threat as mentioned by the other gentlemen. I also never said volcarona would be a defogger, just stated it would ohko both deoxys and bisharp, with volc not being a defogger bisharp would most likely not be at +2. But yeah if bisharp got a free +2 it would be very dangerous but no more dangerous than any other offensive threat this gen with a +2.

Well perhaps I was not reading between the lines correctly, but over all I still think Bisharp is a really solid pick especially for HO teams.

On the other hand, while +2 Bisharp may lose an edge to other top treats with boost, its power lies on how easily it gets it. While you may argue defog will not receive much usage, things like spider web and random intimidate does adds up. And defensive wise its typing just fits the meta well. Even the OU analysis place it at A class, let's get a little picky and assume it receives too much hype, and it will likely still makes a B for the least.

 

[ryan]

I went ahead and sticky'd this for now. I think it'll promote some good discussion, and I'm all about that.

Another really huge factor in OU right now is Speed control. Because there are so many bulky Pokemon with insane typings (Aegislash, Azumarill, etc), Choice Scarf users that don't have U-turn are pretty much no where. Locking into Fighting-type attacks is a lot riskier now with these Pokemon on so many teams. You're much better off most of the time by packing some strong priority users or Sticky Web to keep from being swept by crazy shit like Mega Charizard X and Mega Lucario, which are both fast and stupidly powerful. I'm not sure yet if I like this kind of a metagame more or less than I do kill-or-be-killed Speed-based metagames, but it's definitely very different and more interesting than BW was.

 

[Alejandro36]

Indeed, is incredible that choiced powerhouses of last gen like specs lucario or scarf/banded terrakion almost see no play now (at least I barely see them).

The scarfers I see the most seem to be Genesect (obviously) and Garchomp. They are also handy in that they are able to check mega lucario well. I don't mean to start a discussion on "bann x" but what are the main pokemon right now that MUST be considered when building a team, or risk getting destroyed by them? I think lucario and bellydrum azumarill would be the first "must have a check/counter to" pokemon that come to my mind.

 

[Ajwf]

"Stall is dead! Stall is dead, brand new edition, read all about it!"

Kind of tired of hearing that one... Yeah, defensively postured teams are hard AF to build right now but they are definitely possible and viable. Sure, it's taking a hell of a lot of work and even 'experience' in the field of stall building isn't really helping right now :/ So much of it is simple trial and error but at the end of the day, stall teams have viability.
(Bulky psychics though, man... If I could have one ban just because, it'd be reuniculus for that stupid MG ability...)

Having played some bad hyper offense/bulky offense teams (No, not played against, played... I suck at building those), I'd like to assert that the belief that HO is dead or even less viable than bulky offense is completely untrue. Also, having yet to use a Deo form on the HO, I'm not relying on that to start my team's hazards (I like terrakion, what can I say?). I managed to get higher on the ladder with a bulky pivot team but really I felt the HO style was beating teams easier. Could just be my inherent lack of building either side and just throwing a huge threat list of pokemon like manaphy/luc-m on one, but Talonflame... Oh my god, I never realized how much cruise control a pokemon can have. Bring it in, spam Brave bird, die happily. The only thing saving this one from ubers is the fact that brave bird has recoil.

I would say our current metagame of stall is somewhere between last gen's hazard stall and this gen's bulky offense (wtf is balance). I've mentioned this in the stall thread, but the key to success is to focus on stealth rock as the sole hazard and then find pokemon who have natural bulk that is either fantastic or can be salvaged, patch it up with some EVs and then rely on inherently larger attacks. Heatran, Venusaur, Latias, Clefable and many other pretty decent bulky offense attackers (not sure how clefable does) become great stall candidates because they add the "Chip damage" we saw from something like spikes on switches. Though this gen's greatest stall breaker award goes to bisharp, for being a pain in the ass to defog over.

Ah well. Also, screw Klefki.

 

[Exeggutive]

Yea stall isn't exactly "dead", instead of relying on hazard stack+phaze move like in the previous generations, most of my good stall teams rely on weakening things with toxic/burn and stealth rock.

But saying HO is dead is ridiculous lol. Like I said before, Spike stack teams are nowhere near as effective for HO or Stall but all of they are still very good. Imo Deoxys lead teams are the best teams for the current meta since going for a Defog can really screw you over. Forgetting about Bisharp here, but it gives your opponent a free turn to bring in anything they want. Also all of the powerful and common stall break mons like Landorus, Taunt Thundurus, Aegislash, Mega lucario make stall that much harder to use.

 

[zachmac]

Last page I called Bulky Offense defensive, but I don't think I made that clear enough.

Bulky Offensive is all about swapping in and then attacking. So while it's not entirely defensive, it's still far more defensive then Hyper Offense, which is going down. This alone is enough for me to believe this generation is less offensive, even by a little bit.

Bulky Offensive is more flexible then HO. It's actually pretty easy to swap in pokemon that aren't necessarily bulky or offensive, like the power-lacking Forretress or the fragile Infernape. But HO, on the other hand, is hard pressed to find a defensive pokemon in their team that isn't Deoxys-D.

If BO does take over like so many people believe, I think this generation will be less offensive then last gen, whether or not stall does go down.

 

[sidakarya]

My thoughts about this in no particular order or reason.

Priority and bulk. Priority is what people think of as XY OU's "flavour", and justifiably so, as every team has some form of it. The effects on the metagame are far-reaching - you can't run a team of sanic glass-cannons anymore, when the team might have Talonflame, Azumarill, Aegislash, and Genesect all in one team.

The metagame by far, as you can see in the 1850 stats this month, is quite bulkier than the last. Rotom-W is the king of OU; Heatran, T-Tar, Garchomp, and Azumarill are in top 10; overall, less bulky sweepers are on the decline (even Salamence is below the OU-mark). Bulky offence benefits from priority on both sides. Many Pokémon, who regularly use priority, are themselves bulky (Azumarill, Aegislash, Mawile, etc.) As priority moves themselves tend to be weak, despite their increase in overall strength this time, bulky Pokémon helps to take these hits much easier. Fast, frail sweepers that aren't bulky are usually compelled to themselves carry priority (Lucario, Talonflame) to compensate.

Hyperoffence is still fairly common, but I suspect, it's because of the most utterly absurd bullshit running in the metagame. When you can't take any hits from a +2 M-Lucario, or have any way to answer a Genesect+Dugtrio combo, or can't clear off hazards from a team running Deo-S and Bisharp, you can only answer with more offensive pressure. Stall is workable, but it's hard. Certainly after a few suspect tests, the metagame will slow down considerably.

Physical offence. Because of the special nerf and indirectly, the weather nerf, and most priority being physical, OU is very physically-leaning. Many teams don't really bother carrying something that's specially bulky (except Heatran, and it's also used to check physical threats). Special attackers, I feel, aren't very expected - this is how Special Lucario stormed the metagame. I've even caught people off-guard with a bulky LO Togekiss, expecting a support set and wasting their M-Luke for that...

The physical nature of this metagame means, that burn has become the most dominant status. No surprise, that two of the top 10 (Rotom-W and Heatran) regularly carry burn-causing moves. I feel that in response, I cannot make a team without at least one thing, that resists burn (also paralysis, but only because of horrible Thundurus and Klefki).

 

[Ryolain]

It feels like I'm seeing a lot fewer Choice users in general than in the past. Genesect and Talonflame are the only two I can think of offhand that still use Choice items regularly. You can't just nuke half a team with a CB/CSp set like last gen (largely due to the Dragon nerf), and priority is a more reliable and viable way of revenge killing now so Scarf users are less appealing. You also absolutely do not want MLuke, MPinsir, TF, Azu or any of the other setup sweepers getting a free switch since they can easily kill your whole team, so that chance of being choice locked against the wrong thing can cost you the match.

 

[neato]

It's too early to say anything about stall. Stall as a team is all about making an impenetrable piece of armor. If there is a hole, the whole thing falls apart, but if there isnt, it works beautifully. With new threats means new holes. And its much easier to use offensive pokemon, then it is to counter them. Give it time, once the correct core has been found, it'll find its place again.

I don't really see a lot of bulky offense. It's more everyone wants to run priority, and the priority users are attached to bulky pokemon.
I see a lot of Volt/Turn at higher levels. Which isnt surprising due to genesect.
Volt/Turn right now is probably one of the easiest ways to make a good team right now due to Genesect and Rotom - W countering everything. The introduction of several incredible typings definitely helps. Volt/Turn teams are not hard to use at a competent level, and requires much more thought to beat then to use. I think around 1/3rd of all the teams in the Top 50 right now run both genesect and rotom-w. I only expect that number to go up.

I also feel HO is on the rise as people get over the intial Kalos phase, and figure out Deoxys are back in OU.
Defog has done very little to hurt HO, imo.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

Feels to me like Will-O-Wisp is almost as common as Stealth Rock was last gen, thanks to a megaload of crazy powerful physical threats like Mega-Lucario, Aegislash, Azumarill, (formerly) Mega-Kanghaskan, etc. I give a lot of the credit for the burn craze to Mega-Kanghaskan where taking a hit and burning it was one of the few ways to deal with it

 

[adman2]

Have there been any "Electivires" this generation? For those of you who missed 4th gen, I mean a formerly hyped OU Pokemon that became a laughingstock that only bad players use.

 

[Tathens]

Have there been any "Electivires" this generation? For those of you who missed 4th gen, I mean a formerly hyped OU Pokemon that became a laughingstock that only bad players use.

Metagross, Electivire, Haxorus... etc.

I don't want to say that only 'bad' players use them, but the metagame changed enough for these previous OU mons to go down to BL or even the lower tiers

 

[cuteflounder]

Have there been any "Electivires" this generation? For those of you who missed 4th gen, I mean a formerly hyped OU Pokemon that became a laughingstock that only bad players use.

Probably Malamar. A lot of people were excited about Contrary Superpower only to discover how bad Dark/Psychic typing is and how mediocre Malamar's stats are.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

Have there been any "Electivires" this generation? For those of you who missed 4th gen, I mean a formerly hyped OU Pokemon that became a laughingstock that only bad players use.

SD Aegislash comes to mind. A bit different because the other Aegislash sets are actually quite good.

 

[Hidious]

Have there been any "Electivires" this generation? For those of you who missed 4th gen, I mean a formerly hyped OU Pokemon that became a laughingstock that only bad players use.

Galvantula. It's just not powerful enough for OU and sticky web just isn't that great of an entry hazard when you have defog and lots of priority and slower bulkier threats this generation.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Have there been any "Electivires" this generation? For those of you who missed 4th gen, I mean a formerly hyped OU Pokemon that became a laughingstock that only bad players use.

Infernape is an "Electivire" in the sense that it's OU and refuses to drop. I didn't think it deserved to be in the tier last gen, but the fact that it now has more usage than Thundurus-I, Keldeo, and Kyurem-B, among others, is ridiculous.

 

[I2edShift]

Not really

Metagross, Electivire, Haxorus... etc.

I don't want to say that only 'bad' players use them, but the metagame changed enough for these previous OU mons to go down to BL or even the lower tiers

Metagross just got nerfed really really hard, while Haxorus is too one-dimensional & frail with the introduction of fairy.

As for the rest of the game, it's strange times when Charizard is a big threat that needs to be accounted for.

 

[RufflesPro]

Have there been any "Electivires" this generation? For those of you who missed 4th gen, I mean a formerly hyped OU Pokemon that became a laughingstock that only bad players use.

Delphox anyone? Everybody was crazed that the Fire/Fighting cycle was broken, and thanked GF so much, but once they knew how bad Fire/Psychic typing was and Delphox in general, everybody wished we got a Fire/Fighting instead lol, it is still used by noobs.

 

[AOPSUser]

Not really


Metagross just got nerfed really really hard, while Haxorus is too one-dimensional & frail with the introduction of fairy.

As for the rest of the game, it's strange times when Charizard is a big threat that needs to be accounted for.

No Fairies actually beat Haxorus as they cannot take any attacks from him, even if he doesn't run Poison Jab. But yeah, he should have been BL or UU last gen, especially after Kyurem-B was a thing.

Metagross can actually use an Assault Vest well, although with the Steel nerf it got worse.

Also Smeargle is massively overhyped, as it is at the beginning of every generation. But in October or November, we had it in OU range, and in the Top 25 to boot. Stay in RU Smeargle. >.<

 

[AOPSUser]

Not really


Metagross just got nerfed really really hard, while Haxorus is too one-dimensional & frail with the introduction of fairy.

As for the rest of the game, it's strange times when Charizard is a big threat that needs to be accounted for.

No Fairies actually beat Haxorus as they cannot take any attacks from him. But yeah, he should have been BL or UU last gen, especially after Kyurem-B was a thing.

Metagross can actually use an Assault Vest well, although with the Steel nerf it got worse.

Also Smeargle is massively overhyped, as it is every generation. But in October or November, we had it in OU range, and in the Top 25 to boot. Stay in RU Smeargle. >.<

 

[Alejandro36]

Infernape is an "Electivire" in the sense that it's OU and refuses to drop. I didn't think it deserved to be in the tier last gen, but the fact that it now has more usage than Thundurus-I, Keldeo, and Kyurem-B, among others, is ridiculous.

Infernape is still a great wallbreaker and a great answer against any stall team for being one of the few pokemon able to OHKO both blissey and skarmory. Priority brave bird and aqua jet sure make it worse, but there are still few pokemon that I would rather have more against a defensive team than infernape.

Regarding the burn being more usefull, sableye with priority will o wisp deserves a mention. It would be funny if he actually ended up being OU.

 

[Ryolain]

Infernape is still a great wallbreaker and a great answer against any stall team for being one of the few pokemon able to OHKO both blissey and skarmory. Priority brave bird and aqua jet sure make it worse, but there are still few pokemon that I would rather have more against a defensive team than infernape.

Regarding the burn being more usefull, sableye with priority will o wisp deserves a mention. It would be funny if he actually ended up being OU.

People said Sableye was just a niche MKang counter, but it really does an amazing job of checking so many physical threats, hazard setters and stallers. If you don't have a Fairy, it's probably going to throw your strategy off.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

People said Sableye was just a niche MKang counter, but it really does an amazing job of checking so many physical threats, hazard setters and stallers. If you don't have a Fairy, it's probably going to throw your strategy off.

Or you know, Heatran. I still do like Sableye though, but honestly with Mega-Kanga gone, I think its main niche has gone with it.