As per all of the hype about Talonflame, i am somewhat astonished. Despite being given one of the best abilities that an offensive flying type could wish for, it lacks a few attack points that is desperately needs. Despite having the most powerful priority in the metagame, it just doesn't pack enough punch to effectively take out moderately frail threats. Although i do enjoy having a hard counter to basically all flying types.
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Other OverUsed General Discussion
- Thread starter The Grand Babido
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Talonflame is a clean up Pokemon. It is there to finish off anything moderately damaged. I typically dont even deploy mine in battles until the very end or I need an emergency revenge kill.
This is why I enjoy running Kabtuops on the real. Talonflame is such a hassle in general and I love having something to outrun (Choice Kabutops, not what you would expect) both Charizard-Y and Talon with it and resist both of Talonflames STAB's with and hit it with Stone Edge or even Rock Tomb surprisingly lol (underrated move in my opinion), giving it nice switch-in opportunities to do some surprise damage. I've won a nice amount of games with this strategy.
I repeat my post from a few pages back:
The beauty about Talonflame is that it can damage its counters for a lot, Rotom-W doesn't have reliable recovery and doesn't like taking repeated CB U-turns or Brave Birds, Tyranitar takes 42% damage minimum from CB U-turn, and Heatran can be used as set-up bait for Talonflame, as a +2 Sharp Beak BB still hurts it for quite a bit, while it can't really do much in return besides maybe stall out with Toxic/Protect, or if it carries the occasional AncientPower (or predicts a Roost and goes for Earth Power, but i'm not sure an uninvested one will do enough damage.)
I haven't tried out the Scarf set yet, but I used him on a few teams. While he is threatening, he suffered from the metagame transition, imo. Aegislash hard counters it, and we know being Aegi bait is a terrible thing. Of course it has Earthquake, but that means it has to be more careful now with it's STAB's and being choice-locked on Earthquake is as bad as it can get. Not to mention Will-O-Wisp is everywhere and he hates it more than anything. It also doesn't have priority and it gained a weakness on the transition and it's Fight STAB got nerfed, while that doesn't seem that bad on paper, it is incredibly hard to find teammates that synergies well with it because of that new weakness (and it already had like 6 of them).
I think Terrakion may fit better on HO teams that appreciate it's power and Speed using a Life Orb to pressure the opponent. Scarf is too risky rn and it can't use the Double Booster as well as before solely because of Aegi :/
This isn't scarf, but I've never seen SD Terrakion be used before, and it can actually kill Aegislash:
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 306-360 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
That's actually impressive, I must say. It can actually be an effective late-game cleaner with SD, I guess. I really wish it had some form of priority though. Still, Talon and Scarf Chomp make it's life really hard.
The lead set with SR and Taunt can be good too, I've seen it work a few times.
It has Quick Attack, which has some use since mostly all Terrakion needs are its STAB's. It may appear weak but its a good way to knock off that last bit of health off a scarfer.
There is no Rock Gem in Gen 6. Available anyway...
Yeah, it was a cute filler last Gen because it didn't have many other effective options, but now QA has little utility. It won't do jack shit to Garchomp or Genesect because it's too weak, and Talonflame out-speeds Terra anyway. Besides, Terrakion has better things to be doing like SR, Taunt, SD and nuking with it's STAB's. I think Substitute is a better way to protect him against Scarfers/Priority anyway, oh well.
I'd hate to butt in like this, but Ferrothorn... WOW. I'm not a fan of defensive types (I prefer nuking everything in sight) But Ferrothorn may just be the best Steel type in OU. Despite the "nerfs" to Steel Types (Maybe due to a certain thing called Talonflame) Ferrothorn is STILL a freakin WALL! Maybe it's my 4Iv one doing work, maybe its that new Fairy Type, IDK. but he's a BEAST (Especially with Rocky Helmet)
I agree 100% (even the rocky helmet set is really nice this gen no clue why :/.) Ferro doesn't like the wallbreaker aegislash everyone is using right now, but it's still a REALLY solid poke.
The Rcoky Helmet set is probably great this gen due to the amount of physical Pokemon that are being used. Talonflame, Tyranitar, Scrafty, etc. it's most likely due to the "Ultra Offenseive" period of this gen. And Aegislash.... He is not fun to play against XD
The truth. Though, Earthquake is pretty subpar on Lucario. I mean, what else are you honestly hitting with Earthquake that STAB Adaptability Close Combat doesn't already take care of other than Aegislash?
Got me there, but wouldn't Techloom just destroy M-Luke? Resisting EQ, Dark Pulse and Crunch while pulling off Mach Punch after Mach Punch, I can't do damage calcs ATM, but I'm sure that a Techloom Mach Punch would do at least 1/2 damage to M-Luke.
And let's not forget Ferrothorn, sure, a STAB Close Combat will be super effective, but with Rocky Helmet, he'll take quite a lot of damage from Ferrothorn, and that's not counting the Debuffs. So you could take a Close Combate, switch into something like Techloom, and most likely one shot Mega Luke. Mayyyybe.
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Tentacruel, Mawile, Sableye probably?
Probably not Mawile
+1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 350-414 (115.1 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Assuming Mawile comes in to Intimidate so just +1 rather than +2)
+1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 350-414 (115.1 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Assuming Mawile comes in to Intimidate so just +1 rather than +2)
252 Atk Mega Lucario Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 102-121 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- 23.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lucario Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 150-177 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Considering the predictable WoW/Taunt followed by Recover stalling and/or Foul Play, you probably aren't getting through that unless it's a calm set and misses twice with WoW.
252 Atk Mega Lucario Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 150-177 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Considering the predictable WoW/Taunt followed by Recover stalling and/or Foul Play, you probably aren't getting through that unless it's a calm set and misses twice with WoW.
Is that just so that you could potentially add another line to your sig?
Anyway, I'll contribute:
Has anyone else noticed that, despite the hype about Ghost being the new Dragon for mother-of-all-STABs, many people are not carrying a Ghost resist? There may not be as many usable Darks or Normals as Steels, but between Bisharp, TTar, the Blobs, and Mandibuzz it's not too hard to fit a Ghost resist onto most team styles. Yet much of the time when I switch in my Gengar or Aegislash, my opponent has no real answer, and loses a mon for it. Am I just getting lucky with who I face?
Additionally, has anyone been using Terrakion or Jirachi? Both have taken the generation transition rather badly but I find it hard to believe that 2 defining staples of the metagame would just... vanish. I have fought maybe 3 Terrakions and a single Jirachi so far in gen 6.
Its not that simple as just having a ghost resist. Bisharp can force aegislash out fine, but cant switch in easily because of sacred sword, the blobs cant switch in at all or even do anything to it, tyranitar is shut down by sacred sword+king's shield, dark and normal types in general hate sacred sword making them shaky switch ins and theyre the only things that still resist ghost. The thing everyone is hyping are not really ghost types, its just aegislash, really. Sure chandelure can now get around heatran and gengar can get around jirachi, but seriously neither of these are even close to aegislash's threatening level. 150 in both offenses and the movepool to abuse it is pretty dam great specially when you cant be pursuit trapped (like other ghosts), and thats the thing that most teams dont have a good switch in for.
I'm surprised that m-t-tar usage is rather low. One of the best ou pokemon of last gen got a mega with 700 BST and no one is using it. Since no one is using suicide leads because of defog m-tyranitar seems like a perfect rock setter that go to town on psychic and ghosts with pursuit
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As SBB said, it's not Ghost-type in general you have to worry about, it's just Aegislash. Gengar is the only other really good offensive Ghost in OU and due to its not so great power it's not so hard to check even without resists to Shadow Ball, with specially bulky Pokemon, or just by taking advantage of its frail physical side and nuking it with priority (many offensive teams carry up to three priority suers, so Gengar definitely has a difficult time doing much against those).
Packing a Ghost-type resist to deter Aegislash from freely spamming Shadow Ball is nice, but not a must at all, especially on offensive teams. Between Rotom-W, Lando-T, Excadrill, Bisharp, and Garchomp, which are all over the place, Aegislash is checked pretty well. You must always be careful not to give it too many switch-ins with Lati@s and other stuff that are free switches for it, but in general it's pretty easy, or rather manageable, to keep Aegislash in check even without a Ghost-resist.
That said, Ghost-resists or better, Aegislash counters or very strong checks, are a must on any team that has a defensive core and doesn't plan on finishing the game in less than 15-20 turns, aka balanced, stall, and even some bulky offense teams. Be it Mandibuzz, specially defensive Hippowdon, Krookodile, or Chesnaught, you gotta have this thing covered. So either pack a strong check/counter, or multiple checks (for example, Heatran + Rotom-W + Lando-T) if your want your balanced/defensive team to have any success on the ladder.
That's good advice. However, I believe you misunderstood my meaning- I was referring to how many people cannot switch into my own Aegislash, not asking how to counter it. I found such a thing odd, as with Aegis being as hyped as it is I was expecting more people to have some sort of preparation for it. I'm only in the 1800s on Showdown though, so perhaps I shouldn't be expecting perfect teams.
Any thoughts on Jirachi and Terrakion? Have they lost too much in the gen transition to be viable, or is the "New Toy Syndrome" still here after several months?
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