As long as there is Blissey and no outstandly amazing physical wall, the metagame will always have more trouble with physical attackers
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Physical or Special...which causes the metagame the most grief?
- Thread starter Fatal Edge
- Start date
Lets call it what it is here:
Physical sweeping is a lot easier to use because of reasons already listed. You can slap Fire Blast on half the Physical sweepers and be done with Skarmory or Forretress. You can slap Stone Edge on things like Lucario and Heracross and be done with Gyarados / Zapdos / Salamence. You can blast through Hippowdon with Aqua Tail or Outrage or Close Combat from Choice Banders, the list goes on.
Special Sweeping as I've said before is much more potent. Suppose you are fighting a team without Blissey... you know how easy it is for things like Yanmega / Empoleon / Jolteon / Raikou / Jirachi / Suicune / Azelf / Gengar to fuck shit up??? Suppose you eliminate Blissey... same result... I think the biggest reason why Blissey is such a big factor really is in her typing. If Blissey was any other type, she would be a lot easier to get past (cough Regice cough). Special fighting moves are hard to come by, especially on boosting sweepers. Imagine things like Azelf and Porygon-Z with access to some shit like Aura Sphere? Or if Focus Blast had 100% accuracy like Close Combat (seriously, were talking about special rape).
Physical sweeping is a lot easier to use because of reasons already listed. You can slap Fire Blast on half the Physical sweepers and be done with Skarmory or Forretress. You can slap Stone Edge on things like Lucario and Heracross and be done with Gyarados / Zapdos / Salamence. You can blast through Hippowdon with Aqua Tail or Outrage or Close Combat from Choice Banders, the list goes on.
Special Sweeping as I've said before is much more potent. Suppose you are fighting a team without Blissey... you know how easy it is for things like Yanmega / Empoleon / Jolteon / Raikou / Jirachi / Suicune / Azelf / Gengar to fuck shit up??? Suppose you eliminate Blissey... same result... I think the biggest reason why Blissey is such a big factor really is in her typing. If Blissey was any other type, she would be a lot easier to get past (cough Regice cough). Special fighting moves are hard to come by, especially on boosting sweepers. Imagine things like Azelf and Porygon-Z with access to some shit like Aura Sphere? Or if Focus Blast had 100% accuracy like Close Combat (seriously, were talking about special rape).
I'll also like to add that there are more OU physical sweepers than special ones, and the psuedo legendaries (e.g. Dragonites) outmatch all the OU special sweepers in terms of total base stats besides Heatran.
Actually, Specs Lucario has STAB Aura Sphere, and it still fails to 2HKO the standard Blissey. CM Lucario will fail against Blissey with Flamethrower. Even special fighting attacks aren't enough to take this monster.
Extremely few special sweepers can take down Blissey. Bulky sweepers with access to self-recovery and a method of dealing with status are the best e.g. CM Jirachi with Wish, Crocune. Otherwise, the special sweepers will have to pray they land a Trick on Blissey, which, of course, limits them to Choice items.
I noticed this topic a while ago but held off posting here. However darknessmalice your first statement is obviously ignoring the fact that the current OU metagame is obviously physical based because it currently includes Blissey, who does beat a vast majority of special sweepers. But it's the small percentage of special sweepers that actually beat Blissey that are very threatening to a lot of teams (like how Mismaguis beats for the most part every stall team I know of). And a few that don't always beat Blissey have a fun time sweeping a shitload of Blissey-less teams (Empoleon). EDIT- Basically it's not fair to say that there are more OU physical sweepers in a metagame that currently favors physical sweeping. It doesn't make them inherently better, just advantagous at this point in time (or so the stats say).
But I'm inclined to agree with RL here and say that an offensive team geared to take out Blissey and sweep is probably more threatening... than... an offensive team of 6 physical pokemon? I actually feel that Blissey's existance in OU opens the metagame up to a huge vulnerability to Special threats, because simply taking her out practically wins the game for you with a special based offensive team. It's because Blissey is in the metagame that people are content with slapping her on a team and 5 other, probably more physically defensive based pokemon, and thinking they've got a solid team with all (or most) special threats covered. So I'd go with Special... now I'm really tempted to make a team with Empoleon on it.
But I'm inclined to agree with RL here and say that an offensive team geared to take out Blissey and sweep is probably more threatening... than... an offensive team of 6 physical pokemon? I actually feel that Blissey's existance in OU opens the metagame up to a huge vulnerability to Special threats, because simply taking her out practically wins the game for you with a special based offensive team. It's because Blissey is in the metagame that people are content with slapping her on a team and 5 other, probably more physically defensive based pokemon, and thinking they've got a solid team with all (or most) special threats covered. So I'd go with Special... now I'm really tempted to make a team with Empoleon on it.
The key thing that those Pokes have that Lucario doesn't is Nasty Plot, so they can boost their SpA far faster than Lucario can.
except heatran is immune to sandstorm :b your point stands though.
one thing i dont think has been mentioned is that while all special attackers (more or less) are stopped by blissey, you need a couple of mons to take physical hits from different threats. so if you predict right with one physical attacker, you can clear the way for another one, whereas you don't really have the option with special attackers.
This topic is interesting.
It's true that physical is dominant in the metagame. But once Blissey is gone it's very difficult to handle special threats.
It's true that physical is dominant in the metagame. But once Blissey is gone it's very difficult to handle special threats.
(If you don't like theorymon, don't bother reading this post.)
What if there was a catchall Physical sponge? A "Physsey", if you will. Imagine a Pokémon with 255 base HP, 135 base Def and 10 base SpD. It has access to instant healing, a couple status and support moves, and Natural Cure. Its type is, let's say, Ground - sturdy, few physical weaks, a lot of neutral hits.
Now imagine physical sweepers need to take this down because it's on every team. How much harder does physical sweeping become?
vs 252 HP / 252 SpDef Calm "Physsey":
+2 +Atk 252ev LO Scizor X-Scissor: 44.57% - 52.44%. (Almost 2HKO, sponge must be at full health)
+1 +Atk 252ev LO Gyarados Waterfall: 65.12% - 76.61% (2HKO)
+1 +Atk 252ev LO Salamence Outrage: 51.51% - 60.6%. (2HKO with SR)
Neutral nature 0ev LO Salamence Hydro Pump: 52.32% - 61.55%. (2HKO with SR)
+Atk 252ev LO Metagross Explosion: 95.17% - 111.96% (OHKO with SR)
Neutral nature 0ev LO Metagross HP Ice/Grass: 44.18% - 51.97%.
+2 +Atk 252ev LO Lucario Close Combat: 59.24% - 69.69%. (2HKO)
Neutral nature 0ev LO Lucario Aura Sphere: 36.8% - 43.29%
+1 +Atk 252ev LO Tyranitar Aqua Tail: 51.78% - 60.91%. (2HKO with SR)
Neutral nature 0ev LO Tyranitar Surf/Ice Beam: 48.43% - 56.98%.
As you can see, a physical sponge wouldn't take hits from common metagame superthreats nearly as well as Blissey. Physical attackers just hit harder, statup faster and run mixed sets better. Of course, you could EV your theoretical wall to take physical hits better, but mixed sets that fall short of 2HKOs would take care of you instead.
Admittedly, while dedicated physical sweepers handle the sponge better than special sweepers handle Blissey, you can still switch in on harriers like Machamp, Mamoswine, and almost anything with a CB with near-impunity.
But the point of my thought experiment is this: physical sweepers just have better wallbreaking capabilities in general. Blissey's catchall Special sponging is not the sole reason for the metagame's physical dominance.
What if there was a catchall Physical sponge? A "Physsey", if you will. Imagine a Pokémon with 255 base HP, 135 base Def and 10 base SpD. It has access to instant healing, a couple status and support moves, and Natural Cure. Its type is, let's say, Ground - sturdy, few physical weaks, a lot of neutral hits.
Now imagine physical sweepers need to take this down because it's on every team. How much harder does physical sweeping become?
vs 252 HP / 252 SpDef Calm "Physsey":
+2 +Atk 252ev LO Scizor X-Scissor: 44.57% - 52.44%. (Almost 2HKO, sponge must be at full health)
+1 +Atk 252ev LO Gyarados Waterfall: 65.12% - 76.61% (2HKO)
+1 +Atk 252ev LO Salamence Outrage: 51.51% - 60.6%. (2HKO with SR)
Neutral nature 0ev LO Salamence Hydro Pump: 52.32% - 61.55%. (2HKO with SR)
+Atk 252ev LO Metagross Explosion: 95.17% - 111.96% (OHKO with SR)
Neutral nature 0ev LO Metagross HP Ice/Grass: 44.18% - 51.97%.
+2 +Atk 252ev LO Lucario Close Combat: 59.24% - 69.69%. (2HKO)
Neutral nature 0ev LO Lucario Aura Sphere: 36.8% - 43.29%
+1 +Atk 252ev LO Tyranitar Aqua Tail: 51.78% - 60.91%. (2HKO with SR)
Neutral nature 0ev LO Tyranitar Surf/Ice Beam: 48.43% - 56.98%.
As you can see, a physical sponge wouldn't take hits from common metagame superthreats nearly as well as Blissey. Physical attackers just hit harder, statup faster and run mixed sets better. Of course, you could EV your theoretical wall to take physical hits better, but mixed sets that fall short of 2HKOs would take care of you instead.
Admittedly, while dedicated physical sweepers handle the sponge better than special sweepers handle Blissey, you can still switch in on harriers like Machamp, Mamoswine, and almost anything with a CB with near-impunity.
But the point of my thought experiment is this: physical sweepers just have better wallbreaking capabilities in general. Blissey's catchall Special sponging is not the sole reason for the metagame's physical dominance.
Lol? really? So if I have Gengar on the field against a stall team, say Celebi. I just Explode on the switch to Blissey... that basically means game over if I have another special sweeper. Such tactics are actually stupidly easy to pull off in the metagame right now.
Personally I find Physical a much bigger thread than Special.
To stop most special sweepers you can just use Blissey who stops most of them dead.
If there was a physical version of Blissey then it'd be more fair.
As well as the fact that Swords Dance is a lot more common than Nasty Plot.
To stop most special sweepers you can just use Blissey who stops most of them dead.
If there was a physical version of Blissey then it'd be more fair.
As well as the fact that Swords Dance is a lot more common than Nasty Plot.
Are you saying that Blissey is the only reason that physical attackers are better than special attackers? Look at Steinhauser's post.
Let's not forget too, that more physical sweepers have Swords Dance and Dragon Dance than special sweepers have Nasty Plot or something equally as threatening, as well as everything else that has been mentioned.
True. But Nasty Plot doesn't necessarily mean that the Pokes can Beat Blissey. She still owns Nasty Plot Azelf (without Explosion).
I'm saying special. Physical threats rarely bother me. I scoff at Gyarados and Tyranitar, because of how predictable they are. Salamence is easily revenge killed, and Weavile really isn't as good as he used to be. A simple Will-o-Wisp is all it takes to ruin these Pokemon.
But when a Zapdos gets safely on the feild, I start freaking out. Pokemon like Zapdos and Jolteon are so much more threatning to me. Maybe it's because of my lack of Blissey on my team, but most of my losses are from special sweeps. I run special defense EVs on my Swampert for a reason.
But when a Zapdos gets safely on the feild, I start freaking out. Pokemon like Zapdos and Jolteon are so much more threatning to me. Maybe it's because of my lack of Blissey on my team, but most of my losses are from special sweeps. I run special defense EVs on my Swampert for a reason.
RL couldn't be more right on this one. However, after each of his posts, someone comments that Blissey stops most Special Attackers and completely ignores the fact that nearly all of these Special threats can cripple her with Trick, or even better, use Explosion in the case of Azelf, Gengar, Heatran, etc.
Special based teams can rip this metagame apart assuming they pack a couple of "boomers".
Special based teams can rip this metagame apart assuming they pack a couple of "boomers".
O man, if this was only shorter I'd put this in my signature. How can you say tyranitar is predictable? It runs a choice band set, lead stealth rocks set, runs a scarf well, tyraniboah, dd tar, curse tar, careful choice bander, mixed dd tar, and the list goes on. Hmm lets see jolteon has only two sets really.
Jolteon @ lefties/petaya berry
thunderbolt
hp ice / grass
sub
baton pass
Jolteon @ specs
thunderbolt
hp ice/ grass
shadowball
batonpass
Jolteon, hmm not so much of a threat at all....
People in this topic seem to be forgetting about Tyranitar as a special counter. Even if you're not running Careful with a ridiculous amount of SpD, a simple 252 HP EV spread takes a lot of special hits well, and it beats most of the SubCMers that beat Blissey (barring stuff like Suicune). It nicely walls most special attackers that lack Focus Blast or Grass/Water STAB.
I would say they are both even because if you think about it special lacks the ability to KO blissey with ease or other high spec defence and hp pokemon but lets not forget physical is weakened by things like intimidate, which is unlike special and also burn lowers the attack although i am not sure whether it lowers special.
I agree with this and also tyranitar can be used as just a way of producing a sandstorm and if special possibly getting rid of any spikers or stealth rockers at the beginning, such as skarmory or forretress.
This a good theory but its weird how much easier it is to do this with physical although special has some pretty hjigh powered, accuracy, status afflicting moves,; icebeam, thunderbolt, flamethrower etc.
-I agree with this. Because so many people prepare more for the physical aspect of the metagame (since there are better stat boosting moves, better physical walls, etc), they have little answer once Blissey is removed. Special sweepers are hitting so hard this gen that anything less than Calm Blissey / Cresselia isn't going to like taking the hits.
It depends on the cases, for Tyranitar in this metagame it would be better to aim at the reliable DDancer rather than on the mixer, this discourse is also worth for Salamence.
Heatran and Zapdos surely better special that physical (especially if endowed with Choice Scarf).
Heatran and Zapdos surely better special that physical (especially if endowed with Choice Scarf).